<wolfspraul>
aisa: what was the last line you saw from me after the URL?
<wolfspraul>
I wrote a few things, then got disconnected...
<aisa>
the setup is documented here...
<aisa>
with the Server_setup page.
<aisa>
I'm really happy the Server_setup page gets so much attention.
<aisa>
That is a wealth of information.
<wolfspraul>
I want the servers to be 100% transparent
<wolfspraul>
and downloadable too, still stuff to improve there
<wolfspraul>
aisa: no I meant above, about the news feed stuff
<wolfspraul>
I'll just repost what I think might have been lost
<aisa>
kk.
<wolfspraul>
over the next few months, I want to work on some really high quality Qi news
<wolfspraul>
most importantly monthly community news summarizing what's going on
<wolfspraul>
very important - with nice quality embedded pictures or videos
<wolfspraul>
then maybe nice editorials or interviews, if we have something - again quality & originality before quantity
<wolfspraul>
and finally press releases, i.e. something we think other blogs/media can pickup, and written in such a way that they can easily do so
<wolfspraul>
I think the infrastructure in the wiki for all this is now complete
<wolfspraul>
no rush on this, quality (by far) before quantity
<wolfspraul>
but a nice steady stream would be good
<wolfspraul>
not too much/frequent, not too infrequent
<wolfspraul>
community news every month or two
<wolfspraul>
press release once a quarter or so
<wolfspraul>
editorials or interviews when we have something meaningful to say
<wolfspraul>
what do you think? that's the plan... :-)
<wolfspraul>
that was the continuation of that 'how to write news' post on the discussion list I showed you
<wolfspraul>
I think I can get a number of journalists to subscribe to the Qi RSS feeds, the originality and quality of what we have is not bad, and if we collectively work on this a bit it's going to be very helpful for them
<aisa>
I saw none of this :-)
<aisa>
I feel that I can do my part to contribute news and stories,
<aisa>
and spend some time aggregating,
<aisa>
and that is what I'll have the energy to do.
<wolfspraul>
great
<wolfspraul>
no rush, it's about quality
<wolfspraul>
I have good relations with a number of journalists
<wolfspraul>
in the US, Europe, Japan
<wolfspraul>
they are all under insane pressure, no time to do anything!
<wolfspraul>
20 minutes for a great article with pictures and all
<wolfspraul>
how can anybody work like this...
<qbject>
Wolfspraul: i'd like to help with this too.
<wolfspraul>
so what we need to do is to create a nice steady stream
<wolfspraul>
no need to do a lot, not at all
<wolfspraul>
quality is far more important than quantity
<wolfspraul>
they are flooded with crap anyway
<wolfspraul>
every day
<wolfspraul>
I am not so worried that our stuff will not stand out in the flood of PR/marketing blurbs.
<wolfspraul>
I'm only worried that we:
<wolfspraul>
a) do have original and high quality news
<wolfspraul>
b) do a bit of work to make the life of journalists easier, with high quality reusable pictures, for example, and well written texts
<wolfspraul>
c) do not post too much, overloading their capacity to follow, and also not too little, making them forget about our project
<wolfspraul>
that's all
<wolfspraul>
if we can do this, I am quite optimistic journalists will love to subscribe to our feeds, follow, and reuse our content in their publications
<aisa>
I like this guidance.
<qbject>
Sounds reasonable, doable, and effective.
<wolfspraul>
many journalist like content where they feel their readers can make a genuine contribution to
<wolfspraul>
because readers want to read stuff that let's them get active/contribute in some way (whatever way that is)
<wolfspraul>
let's keep that in mind
<wolfspraul>
so we don't need to throw our greatness in front of their feed
<wolfspraul>
feet
<wolfspraul>
things can be unfinished, unpolished
<wolfspraul>
but the readers must somehow feel how they can contribute to this, in which way, no matter how small
<wolfspraul>
after that it's a bit of luck to get published, it depends on what is happening on any single day
<wolfspraul>
that is uncontrollable by anyone
<wolfspraul>
so you can plan whatever you want for day X, if on that day another Tsunami hits, forget about your stuff
<aisa>
heh.
<wolfspraul>
on the other hand, on a slow day, they may be under pressure (they always have to publish something), so even a bit obscure news may make it to the headline on such a day
<wolfspraul>
that part is uncontrollable by anyone
<wolfspraul>
so let's not focus on that
<wolfspraul>
we focus on a steady, readable stream of high quality, original content
<wolfspraul>
over time that should sort itself out
<wolfspraul>
now that I think about it, maybe I should make the News page in the wiki editable by admins only?
<wolfspraul>
that's the one that aggregates wiki articles into the news feeds (Qi & planet)
<wolfspraul>
I mean anybody we know to be a reasonable person can get admin rights immediately anyway.
<wolfspraul>
but right now, I just realize, even anonymous people could push things through the news feed :-)
<wolfspraul>
maybe that's a bit too extreme
<aisa>
Given the intent of the newsfeed, I agree with you.
<aisa>
restrict the access.
<qbject>
If your going to court serious folks, it would probably be wise. No need to be embarassed by publishing vadalism.
<aisa>
the option option is to wait until it is a problem,
<wolfspraul>
aisa: is your account an Admin account already?
<aisa>
if you don't like the idea right away.
<aisa>
I am an admin, yes.
<aisa>
I've used my powers once :-)
<wolfspraul>
qbject: what is your wiki account? I'll make it an admin too
<wolfspraul>
no I think inclusion in the feeds should be restricted to admins. we are very liberal about the admin rights anyway.
<qbject>
Wolfspraul: Allin_Kahrl
<wolfspraul>
ahh! :-)
<qbject>
;)
<aisa>
haha.
<aisa>
I had no idea.
<aisa>
you jerk.
<aisa>
though, I guess you might not know aisa is Alan Post.
<qbject>
No, but I suspected. :D
<aisa>
qbject, what are you even doing awake, you have work tomorrow ;-)
<qbject>
You're telling me. But look what I would've missed.
<qbject>
And I just came on to see if the openwrt version of imgv could do slideshows.
<wolfspraul>
alright, I set the News page to only be editable by admins
<wolfspraul>
and I gave admin rights to qbject
<qbject>
Thanks wolfspraul.
<qbject>
Aisa's right. I should bed down for the night, but I look forward to discussing this further mañana.
<aisa>
I just finished a data analysis myself.  After I summarize the results I'm way overdue to sleep myself.
<aisa>
goodnight qbject.
<qbject>
G'night aisa, wolfspraul.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: a/b) have news that stick out ("original" in the way it's used in German - novel, exceptional). the journalists are only the gatekeepers. the news also have to pass the "spam filters" of the readers.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: interesting that journalists "get" the readers' desire to participate. that's encouraging.
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: what is the killer application of the Xue camera?
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
(stealing your question...)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: wish i knew ;-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: a distinguishing feature is the openness
<wolfspraul>
methril_work was asking about the difference to Elphel a long time back on the mailing list, and I never answered (nobody did)
<wpwrak>
but is there more ?
<wolfspraul>
honestly I don't know
<wolfspraul>
so I can also just guess/try to dive into the idea
<wolfspraul>
if you look at a CMOS image sensor, my understanding is that it is always basically made out of 2 parts
<wolfspraul>
the cells/pixels that are capturing the light, and additional logic that processes the data
<wolfspraul>
so in terms of freedom innovation, the idea is to lower the entry point at which free software starts
<wolfspraul>
we wouldn't want a sensor that just spits out complete jpegs
<wolfspraul>
now, we wouldn't want a sensor either that has zero processing logic at all, first because afaik such sensors don't exist, and then also because that would make the level so low that we wouldn't have a functioning camera for years
<wpwrak>
yup, understood. but is it "just" an openness improvent or is there anything else xue can do/do better than others ?
<wolfspraul>
another way to look at it is from the application side
<wolfspraul>
oh many things
<wolfspraul>
let's look from the app side
<wolfspraul>
I'm in beautiful China
<wolfspraul>
the country leading on spying everywhere
<wolfspraul>
when I drive around Beijing, I am followed by hundreds of cameras
<wolfspraul>
everywhere
<wolfspraul>
they are also at every toll booth
<wolfspraul>
at every entrance and exit of a public parking lot
<wolfspraul>
and at every other place you could imagine putting one
<wolfspraul>
afaik those cameras are now able to identify up to 30 license plates in parallel
<wolfspraul>
and they are working on fingerprinting faces as well
<wpwrak>
and xue can do more ?
<wolfspraul>
he he
<wpwrak>
or identify occupant(s) ? :)
<wolfspraul>
well you cannot do any of this with a sensor that can only give you 3, or 5, or even 20 jpegs per second
<wolfspraul>
so there are many applications that are, at least today, only possible if you move the application logic lower
<wolfspraul>
for example into an fpga
<wolfspraul>
Elphel could probably give you a long long list of such applications
<wolfspraul>
essentially all their customers come to them for that
<wpwrak>
(20 fps) why not ? have mor than one plate in the image
<wpwrak>
so, faster license plate recognition is the killer app ?
<wolfspraul>
no
<wolfspraul>
any application that is only possible to moving the processing into an fpga
<wolfspraul>
by moving
<wpwrak>
alright, but what's the proof of concept ?
<wolfspraul>
well first take any picture, even just a still picture
<wpwrak>
alright. that's R&D :)
<wolfspraul>
the problem on the freedom side is that the CMOS image sensor will always have pixels + processing
<wolfspraul>
we will not be able to make our own CMOS image sensors for xxx years
<wpwrak>
we were talking about marketing. why should i, a hypothetical prospective customer, want a xue ? and not happycam.cn ?
<wolfspraul>
so essentially we are still coding onto a proprietary API, the one for whatever CIS we are choosing
<wolfspraul>
well again, I think there are many applications
<wpwrak>
well, many sensors provide fairly raw images
<wolfspraul>
let's think more high level
<wolfspraul>
how programmable/scriptable is the typical mass-market camera?
<wolfspraul>
even for simple things, say you want to synchronize 3 cameras
<wolfspraul>
to take a picture at exactly the same time, say within 1 ms
<wolfspraul>
how do you do that?
<wolfspraul>
with our camera, no problem at all
<wolfspraul>
(I would think :-))
<wpwrak>
okay, synchronization
<wolfspraul>
we can do real-time encoding in Ogg Theora, or other formats, even new formats
<wolfspraul>
who else has 'hardware accelerated Ogg Theora encoding'
<wolfspraul>
and new real-time/on-the-fly formats can be developed with our camera, where else can you do that?
<wolfspraul>
how about that?
<wpwrak>
okay, we;re getting closer. real-time ogg sounds good
<wolfspraul>
also programmability/scriptability
<wpwrak>
"future-proof" is always tricky :)
<wpwrak>
you don't needs scripts in the camera. send the stream to a pc. figure out there what to do.
<wolfspraul>
not practical in many cases
<wolfspraul>
let's say you want to build a stereoscopic camera, or panoramic camera
<wolfspraul>
you can beat many of these arguments with 'theoretically' we can do it such and such
<wolfspraul>
but then I can also say "yes, but equally theoretically we can do it with Xue"
<wolfspraul>
if we open up the CIS with an FPGA, and make it easily programmable at that level, that will open up a lot of interesting applications for many people
<wolfspraul>
it's all about how easy the access to the CIS gets
<wpwrak>
hmm. stream plus timestamps ? that way, you can easily compensate for timing differences
<wpwrak>
so, new algorithm development ? R&D or just R ?
<wolfspraul>
I do believe in the power of free software :-)
<wolfspraul>
so I'm not always asking myself "how can I do this with proprietary software"
<wolfspraul>
but rather "what new things do we make possible with free software"
<wolfspraul>
and that's a lot then, I think
<wolfspraul>
the CPU is already a free design, Milkymist. Now we hook a CIS up to it, with full fpga access.
<wolfspraul>
who is the competitor?
<wolfspraul>
Elphel? Xue will be much cheaper, and at least my strategy is to drive the price down, whereas Elphel is happy with a high-end 2000 USD and up camera.
<wpwrak>
so you're coming back to the killer feature being openness ?
<wolfspraul>
that's the enabler, sure
<wolfspraul>
if that is not interesting, why start the project?
<wolfspraul>
you can buy tons of excellent cameras
<wpwrak>
enabler for what ? ogg ? R&D ? ...
<wpwrak>
no no. the question is not that much was convinces us but what can convince others.
<wolfspraul>
agreed
<wolfspraul>
so after the first boards are made, we need to go find out "which applications become possible with this design"
<wolfspraul>
of course we can try now, but once we have the boards and people can start playing, I think we have a better chance of finding something really interesting
<wpwrak>
yup. that usually works best. make toys, watch 'em play :)
<wolfspraul>
I wouldn't underestimate the attractiveness of something simple like 3D (stereoscopic) or panoramic cameras
<wolfspraul>
also there are almost no nicely programmable cameras in the market
<wolfspraul>
at least not at the level of 'ease of programming' I am imagining
<wolfspraul>
I give you an example :-)
<wolfspraul>
when Google started the book scanning project, all the big corps competed for this customer
<wolfspraul>
Canon, Kodak, everybody
<wolfspraul>
and... tiny 1-man Elphel from Salt Lake City, Utah
<wolfspraul>
how did Elphel win?
<wolfspraul>
it came down to a few modifications in the firmware
<wolfspraul>
Kodak and the others said they would need at least 6 months
<wolfspraul>
so even though this customer had huge political cloud, and the big guys gave it top priority, in the end Elphel won simple because it would not take 6 months to make a small modification to the firmware
<wpwrak>
alright, so flexibe image processing
<wolfspraul>
I think many many customers are in this position.
<wpwrak>
this either needs examples, even if partially developed, or a "blue sky" target
<wolfspraul>
although it will be a challenge to craft a clear message, and get that message to them.
<wolfspraul>
you mean the exact features Google needed back then?
<wpwrak>
yup. they'll probably see examples
<wolfspraul>
see I think when you have a big project, like book scanning, small problems can quickly grow exponentially
<wpwrak>
"if it can do X then it might also do our Y"
<wolfspraul>
and then the inability to hack/script/modify/customize _ANYTHING_ in the firmware becomes equally nasty
<wolfspraul>
you will probably admit that in general, the hackability of common cameras is really really bad
<wolfspraul>
there are some projects actually
<wolfspraul>
it's like the smartphone world
<wolfspraul>
they are juggling binaries
<wolfspraul>
reverse-engineering
<wolfspraul>
trying to find datasheets
<wolfspraul>
etc. etc.
<wolfspraul>
then suddenly Canon changes CPUs and everything starts over :-)
<wpwrak>
well, that would be camera setup and image output
<wpwrak>
but that's just the basics
<wpwrak>
you can get that by buying a documented sensor
<wolfspraul>
very rare
<wolfspraul>
the one we will choose also has no open datasheet
<wpwrak>
the xue has to deliver more :) but yes, some nice examples can help
<wolfspraul>
Aptina MT9M033...
<wpwrak>
sigh
<wolfspraul>
well of course we have the datasheet
<wolfspraul>
on the Aptina website you need to register and then ask for it, need to try what that means
<wolfspraul>
looks like Samsung
<wolfspraul>
I think the key thing that Xue will hopefully unlock is to hookup an FPGA to the CIS, and then open that whole interface up for free software
<wolfspraul>
especially since the SoC design on the FPGA is already a free design
<wpwrak>
now you just need the fpga developers :)
<wolfspraul>
I see it like an additional peripheral
<wolfspraul>
we can take Elphel sources, to a degree (don't know how compatible Xue and Elphel are on that regard)
<wolfspraul>
the goal is compatibility with Elphel to be able to reuse at least some of their (GPL licensed) Verilog design
<wolfspraul>
they even have an old Ogg Theora in Verilog already :-)
<wolfspraul>
both may have been compromised a little by now, I don't know
<wolfspraul>
the less the better, for sure
<wolfspraul>
it's about free software, reuse, etc.
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: I totally agree with you that we need to define a concise marketing message
<wolfspraul>
killer apps
<wolfspraul>
what is special about Xue?
<wolfspraul>
etc.
<wolfspraul>
it's at best grey right now
<wolfspraul>
we are just building a toy
<wolfspraul>
if you look at Xue from the perspective of Milkymist One, it has the following differences:
<wolfspraul>
a) adds a CMOS image sensor as a new 'peripheral' (the 'eye')
<wolfspraul>
b) in KiCad instead of Altium designer
<wolfspraul>
c) designed for energy efficiency (unlike Milkymist One)
<wolfspraul>
d) tried to retain as much as possible Milkymist compatibility, and adding Elphel compatibility (probably to a lesser degree)
<wolfspraul>
e) board is substantially smaller (5x9cm), compared to 10x15cm for Milkymist One
<wolfspraul>
that's it I thnk
<wolfspraul>
roh: you probably know that www.openmoko.org is down, right?
<wpwrak>
energy efficiency and small size are probably not very "newsworthy". that it'unitl they're extreme
<wpwrak>
MM1 compatibility matters when the MM1 is popular :)
<wpwrak>
or when it's more convenient for prototyping. but that's probably not the case, given that applications would typically do something with the image
<wolfspraul>
first I'm describing the differences to you
<wolfspraul>
those differences are the reason Xue exists, without them it would not exist.
<wolfspraul>
a camera in most cases needs to be small, mobile, close to the object that is to be captured
<wolfspraul>
Milkymist One may grow into a 'desktop' or 'table' computer, but it will always be a media computer that is either somewhere under the table or in the corner (Milkymist One), or maybe at the hands of a media operator (Milkymist Two)
<wolfspraul>
one day Milkymist One/Two may also be done with Kicad, so that difference may go away
<wolfspraul>
I doubt Milkymist One/Two will ever add a CMOS image sensor, it would totally not make sense
<wpwrak>
agreed
<wolfspraul>
energy efficiency is not important when you are plugged into the wall
<wolfspraul>
for fashion/green reasons we may one day optimize it too, but it will never be a design criteria that tops other features like it might be in Xue
<wolfspraul>
same for size, it just doesn't matter as much in a product like Milkymist One as it does in a camera
<wolfspraul>
so in prioritizations, size will never trump other features, like anything related with high media performance, in Milkymist One/Two
<wolfspraul>
but in Xue it might
<wpwrak>
energy efficiency would ave to be compared with other imaging solutions, not the MM1 :)
<wpwrak>
yup. they're very different there.
<wolfspraul>
the Xue board can be the base for the Milkymist-based NanoNote
<wolfspraul>
or a phone, or any other mobile product
<wolfspraul>
it's much closer to those, although I prefer to do things one step at a time, and right now it's about camera, and camera only
<wpwrak>
sure. a board that done some of the useful things.
<wolfspraul>
for camera applications, a bit market are also industrial uses
<wolfspraul>
a camera as part of a machine that is watching something
<wolfspraul>
in many many cases machines are becoming faster and faster
<wpwrak>
yup, right
<wolfspraul>
so when I gave you this example of the traffic cameras and how many cars they can identify at the same time now, of course that's not something I consider worthwhile competing in
<wolfspraul>
but let's say you have a machine that cuts cheese into slices
<wpwrak>
so it needs fast image recognition apps. kinda a toolbox.
<wolfspraul>
or hundreds of other industrial machines
<wolfspraul>
they need machine vision all over the place
<wolfspraul>
and our camera is programmable, and it has an fpga meaning that expensive image processing logic can be implemented in a high-performance way
<wpwrak>
yes. so, if the customer is to be a developer of such vision systems, there would be the toolbox
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
small board
<wolfspraul>
super documented
<wolfspraul>
free software
<wpwrak>
if the customer is the devloper of the toolbox, then you need less :)
<wpwrak>
if the customer is the factory, more :)
<wolfspraul>
wait cannot follow
<wolfspraul>
what?
<wolfspraul>
toolbox? developer? factory?
<wolfspraul>
I was just describing a use case.
<wolfspraul>
industrial machine, doing whatever, at high speed
<wolfspraul>
even in our industry, automatic optical inspection systems after SMT
<wpwrak>
yup. what i mean, the respective customers need different levels of existing infrastructure before they can do "their" thing
<wolfspraul>
well, I would hope we would make the start as easy as posible
<wolfspraul>
so there's Ethernet
<wpwrak>
so, freaks first, the rest of the world later :)
<wolfspraul>
power cable is separate
<wpwrak>
kinda like the ben
<wolfspraul>
so you need 2 cables with xue, then you can start
<wolfspraul>
Elphel is using Power over Ethernet
<wolfspraul>
it's a looong story, but in the end we think a separate cable is better, at least for now
<wpwrak>
patents ? :)
<wolfspraul>
yes, that's one big problem
<wolfspraul>
PoE is a patent mine
<wolfspraul>
patent minefield rather
<wpwrak>
"cherchez le brevet" ;-)
<wolfspraul>
another one is that the PoE standard is geared towards long distance cables etc. 40-70V etc.
<wpwrak>
70 V is pretty inconvenient
<wolfspraul>
so it doesn't go along very well with the power efficiency goals of Xue
<wolfspraul>
PoE is about powering all sorts of stuff through the Ethernet cables
<wolfspraul>
so you can focus on one cabling instead of two
<wolfspraul>
but of course the whole network is then not really trying to hook together devices that squeeze out every last mW
<wolfspraul>
it's more heavy-duty plumbing :-)
<wolfspraul>
so you can power the big fat Cisco routers and what not
<wpwrak>
in such cases you also don't care. you have mains.
<wolfspraul>
it just doesn't fit very well with the power efficiency goals of Xue
<wolfspraul>
although just needing one cable is an interesting proposition
<wolfspraul>
but then, PoE in general is very expensive and never got widely adopted, because of the patent situation
<wolfspraul>
it's a good idea though
<wpwrak>
well, if your application doesn't need power efficiency doesn't mean that it wouldn't benefit from the xue
<wolfspraul>
first time I had my Elphel camera I couldn't believe that there was only 1 connector :-)
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: did you know about PoE before this conversation?
<wolfspraul>
I seriously had _never_ heard about it :-)
<wpwrak>
that it exists ? of course
<wolfspraul>
then you tell me
<wpwrak>
it's not that obscure :)
<wolfspraul>
what do you think about it?
<wpwrak>
nice idea. simplifies cabling. avoids potentially error-prone power supplies. like USB.
<wpwrak>
of course, you can spoil it all with patents and a clumsy design. don't know enough about it to tell if this is the case.
<wolfspraul>
it is
<wolfspraul>
very expensive
<wolfspraul>
patented
<wolfspraul>
plus the design philosophy
<wolfspraul>
PoE is all about how _much_ power can I get
<wolfspraul>
not about how _efficient_ can the whole system be
<wpwrak>
well, usb often is too ;-)
<wolfspraul>
that is totally fine, but just not in line with what I believe are good priorities for Xue
<wpwrak>
i think if you have a system that wants PoE, efficiency often isn't a concern
<wpwrak>
otherwise, use USB. or something specialized.
<wolfspraul>
the latest PoE standard guaranteed 25.5W, and some vendors are proud to already offer 51W...
<wolfspraul>
(according to Wikipedia)
<wolfspraul>
so anyway, no PoE on Xue, at least not RC1
<wolfspraul>
that's another thing about Xue
<wolfspraul>
it is designed to be in the middle of 'vision performance'
<wolfspraul>
just to get the basics (vision) working at all
<wolfspraul>
after that we can specialize, if we have paying customers
<wolfspraul>
either go to higher-grade vision applications, c-mount lenses
<wolfspraul>
or go to lower-grade vision apps, plastic lenses
<wolfspraul>
Xue is the first foot in the 'vision' door
<wolfspraul>
hopefully we can then see more clearly :-)
<wolfspraul>
and specialize, turn it into a product
<wpwrak>
sounds reasonable. high-end is too expensive, low-end doesn't save too much in the total system cosr
<wolfspraul>
correct
<wolfspraul>
I hope to be able to sell xue boards for 200-300 USD or so
<wolfspraul>
even less
<wolfspraul>
I will try to squeeze out as much as possible
<wolfspraul>
after we get that up and running, we can specialize and turn it into a product, chasing low-cost, or chasing high-end optics, etc.
<wolfspraul>
well, I hope others join too at some point
<wolfspraul>
maybe some company that takes this and turns it into a product
<wpwrak>
so the first run is for hackers, with open-ended application. more focus on infrastructure. similar to ben.
<wpwrak>
whee, motorola sues apple over some patents. the "everyone sues everyone else" matrix in the phone market is filling up ;-)
<wpwrak>
considering all the attacks originating from nokie, you'd almost think they have some issues with their products ;)
<wolfspraul>
if we don't sue someone really soon some people will start to say that prooves that we have no IP
<wolfspraul>
about 'first run for hackers'
<wolfspraul>
that's not how I see it
<wolfspraul>
although maybe I would not agree because it's obvious :-)
<wolfspraul>
any Xue run is about finding the shortest path to a product one can sell to someone who wants to use this for a non-programming application
<wolfspraul>
I do not believe in selling developer tools.
<wolfspraul>
now, talking about the first run, of course those boards will not even be offered to such a person
<wpwrak>
so the customers buil their tools from scratch ?
<wolfspraul>
its' the first run of a new design with endless unknowns!
<wpwrak>
or do you plan to sell complete solutions ?
<wolfspraul>
no one by one
<wolfspraul>
I react to your 'for hackers' statement
<wpwrak>
"one by one" would be "hackers first" :)
<wolfspraul>
the first run is about verifying the design
<wolfspraul>
how many we do? I don't even know.
<wpwrak>
alright. the first run you actually sell :)
<wolfspraul>
I asked Andres how confident he is. He says "totally 100% absolutely confident"
<wolfspraul>
what does that mean?
<wpwrak>
okay, make the number low ;-)
<wolfspraul>
I haven't worked with Andres before.
<wolfspraul>
I am putting my money on the line.
<wolfspraul>
of course, I am 90% sure the boards won't even boot :-)
<wolfspraul>
so maybe 2?
<wolfspraul>
4?
<wolfspraul>
maybe 2
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
ok 4
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
I don't know.
<wolfspraul>
so of course these boards are 'for' hackers
<wolfspraul>
but none of us can live on this kind of stuff
<wolfspraul>
should I sell it to you?
<wpwrak>
not more than 10 :) depends a bit on how the cost structure works. probably not fewer than 4, just considering the overhead
<wolfspraul>
to Andres?
<wpwrak>
to andres. he'll need at least 2.
<wolfspraul>
we need to sell to outsiders, people who use our technology for their applications
<wolfspraul>
and I try to find the shortest path to such people.
<wolfspraul>
now, with the first run this question (whom to sell to) is not on the table yet.
<wolfspraul>
too many unknowns
<wpwrak>
but all that's pre-production. find the bugs.
<wolfspraul>
sure
<wolfspraul>
but I will always try to find the shortest path to sell to non-hackers
<wolfspraul>
if you say "this is for hackers" I am just reacting allergically :-)
<wolfspraul>
because that's unsustainable
<wolfspraul>
so even if in reality RC1, RC2, RC3, RC4, are all just for hackers, I will always insist that I am on the shortest (!) path to non-hackers
<wolfspraul>
just clarifying my thinking so we don't need to go over it again and again
<wolfspraul>
probably we mean the same thing...
<wpwrak>
non-hackers need infrastructure. you have none. hackers can create their own. so i think it's pretty clear whom you can sell to ;-)
<wolfspraul>
ok, but we don't undertake the whole endeavor to 'sell to hackers'
<wpwrak>
it may well be the shortest path.
<wolfspraul>
yes of course
<wpwrak>
naw, i hope not :)
<wolfspraul>
like I said we agree, just we use those words slightly differently
<wolfspraul>
so yes, RC1, and most likely also RC2, RC3 will, in reality, be sold to hackers
<wpwrak>
one question is when you define who else should buy it
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
I have to admit.
<wolfspraul>
But i try to get away from it asap
<wolfspraul>
the moment I am able to find such a customer
<wolfspraul>
selling to a non-hacker is always preferable over selling to a hacker
<wpwrak>
do you make it a platform for "blue sky research" ? or do you try to steer things in a certain direction ?
<wolfspraul>
first let's get it to the point that it boots and can take images
<wpwrak>
(non-hcker vs. hacker) why ? if it's just one, the hacker should be more useful. it gets interesting when it's 100 non-hackers vs. 1 hacker
<wolfspraul>
then, for any run larger than let's say 100, we need to have an actual customer/marketing message in mind
<wpwrak>
sounds good
<wpwrak>
though the first "public" run would still have to be "for hackers". unless you find the infrastructure somewhere. or you find companies that don't mind doing everything from scratch.
<wpwrak>
pioneer work on an unproven design. difficult. they must be very desperate to try this.
<wolfspraul>
let's make the first steps
<wolfspraul>
we are not totally unknown, and totally incapable, of getting a message out that we have a product there
<wolfspraul>
and then we need to see which customers we can find
<wolfspraul>
but right now I think you agree, it's just too far out to do this now
<wolfspraul>
I mean we have nothing but unknowns
<wolfspraul>
Milkymist, KiCad, CIS
<wolfspraul>
well
<wolfspraul>
everything actually :-)
<wpwrak>
particularly, find those in the field of computer vision and image processing. the probably don't know you (yet)
<wolfspraul>
let's build something, then we see what actually works, then we find customers to whom that is valuable
<wpwrak>
then find out what excites them. make one or two cool proof of concept applications.
<wolfspraul>
yes we are moving there
<wolfspraul>
no boards now
<wolfspraul>
so what's needed? at least 1 board
<wolfspraul>
true?
<wpwrak>
all the while, you can already try to sell to "raw" hackers, of course
<wolfspraul>
well, when I say I prefer to sell to non-hackers, of course that doesn't mean I don't sell to hackers
<wolfspraul>
I love a hacker customer as much as I love a non-hacker customer.
<wpwrak>
a least 2 boards for design verification. but andres would know what number he needs. probably more. if you want to put adam or someone else on it, 2 more for that guy.
<wolfspraul>
yeah
<wolfspraul>
maybe 4
<wolfspraul>
or 5 if you want one :-)
<wolfspraul>
we'll see
<wolfspraul>
it's a bit early now
<wolfspraul>
I need to focus on the Milkymist One RC2 run first.
<wpwrak>
divide by production yield :)Â Â that's 5 even without me ;)
<wolfspraul>
my gut feeling is the first run will be a disaster
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wpwrak>
any i'm not sure i want one before they've verified the design ;-) it can be completely broken
<wolfspraul>
but let's see
<wpwrak>
exactly :)
<wpwrak>
with my very simplistic and limited DIY things, i always make them in pairs. if one acts up, i try the other. if both have the same problem, then i have somewhere to start the search. otherwise, you're just chasing your own tail.
<wolfspraul>
I will try to enjoy the disaster as much as possible
<wolfspraul>
at least I think I deserve that for my money
<wpwrak>
and first versions tend to be bad. of course, i can fix a lot of problems in my DIY boards by just cutting up traces and adding wires and stuff :)
<wolfspraul>
learn something from it...
<wpwrak>
(having no inner layer helps ;-)
<wpwrak>
then i may have another version with the V0 errate plus size and buildability improvements.
<wpwrak>
etc.
<wpwrak>
sometimes, the first try it useful. but often there's some stupid mistake. xue is complex, so the risk increases
<wpwrak>
of course, thigs do't have to take the gta01 route ;-)
<wpwrak>
something like 3 board runs before the thing would even come out of reset. ten more before it would be considered sellable. well, something like these numbers. i think that's fairly extreme by any standard :)
<wolfspraul>
Milkymist One: first run boots, a few major errata but 80% works
<wolfspraul>
SIE: first run (by me) fully under control, 80% boards fully functional
<wolfspraul>
AVT2: first run, 20 boards, about 8 or 9 fully functional in the end (after reworks)
<wolfspraul>
that's my track record
<wolfspraul>
all of these runs had issues, but this is about how it should be, imo
<wolfspraul>
I do want the first Xue run to produce boards that boot and can take images.
<wolfspraul>
reworks are OK
<wolfspraul>
we'll see
<wolfspraul>
maybe Xue will finally bring my track record down...
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain_away: are you there?
<tuxbrain_away>
partially
<wolfspraul>
I need your help with a few bits on the Nanowar announcement
<wolfspraul>
you don't need to format it nicely, just dump at the bottom
<wolfspraul>
your personal contact info, david@tuxbrain.com, plus phone number
<wolfspraul>
official Nanowar homepage
<wolfspraul>
official (?) download location for the new album
<wolfspraul>
names of the 3 members
<wolfspraul>
direct link into your shop with the special edition
<wolfspraul>
just a few URLs by the way
<tuxbrain_away>
ok  give me 10 mins and I will do it asap
<wolfspraul>
sure no rush
<wolfspraul>
I meant URLs to help people find their way...
<wolfspraul>
I googled a bit but I am not sure what the official homepage of Nanowar is, or even the official download location for the album, if one exists
<wpwrak>
(track record) pretty good. no mass grave.
<wolfspraul>
you do learn a thing or two as a software engineer about engineering methodologies
<wolfspraul>
we are not complete idiots either...
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wpwrak>
(nanowar) considering a "re-launch", PR-wise, after the first one fizzled out ?
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain_away: another thing which is more work and maybe not so important, but still wanted to feed it back
<wolfspraul>
werner thinks the nanowar video should be cut into a 'best-of' which is maybe 1 minute long
<wpwrak>
(complete idiots) reminds me of that saying about standing on the shoulders of giants ... ;-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (video) YES !
<wolfspraul>
I haven't watched it yet, and my sound is broken, but Werner is normally a reasonable person so he may have a point
<wpwrak>
watch it :)
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain_away: but if you could fill in those URLs and contact info/names for me that's great
<wolfspraul>
the video cutting is more work, and maybe not worth it. i don't know.
<wpwrak>
i wonder if there's a good cutting tool. i use kdenlive but i end up spending 95% of the time fighting bugs (and eventually losing) than doign the actual editing
<tuxbrain_away>
yes, I was think on do a short version, more an announce like with some sincro with music, kino is quite good y you have enough HD to support the conversion to dv
<wpwrak>
thigs like video and audio out of sync after cutting. the getting more out of sync if i try to adjust it. then a crash when i try to fix it in another way.
<tuxbrain_away>
but I didn't find the time to do so yet
<wolfspraul>
the album name is "Into Gay Pride Ride", correct?
<wolfspraul>
I had to google it, wasn't in your text, I think
<wpwrak>
i've once tried kino too. also had troubles. but maybe they're less bad now. the odd thing is the kdenlive seems to have worked better some time ago.
<tuxbrain_away>
yes that the album title
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: short version would be great. you have a lot of good base material there. but i think you could put the whole message into a 30 s clip. 3 s per video game, etc.
<wpwrak>
microsoft: "[...] we've spent over 30 years developing cutting-edge computer software." reader comment: "When will it be released?" priceless :)
<wpwrak>
a better chart of who is suing whom. sheer madness.
<wolfspraul>
there is actually a big risk in these lawsuits, which is that when they are over, the general opinion/press will be "nobody can be in the phone space unless they are one of the big guys"
<wolfspraul>
which of course it not true, but it will be a massive wall of FUD to go against
<tuxbrain>
and openmoko failure is not good weapon to use against that wall :P, in spite of there were other reason of it's failure
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain: I am trying to finish those urls
<wolfspraul>
got the band's homepage now
<wolfspraul>
problem with the member names is that there are 5 members
<tuxbrain>
yes
<wolfspraul>
but I need to know the names of the 3 on the picture
<tuxbrain>
is a parody of the Manowar original group covers
<wolfspraul>
ok, so just Nanowar for us then
<wolfspraul>
how about your phone number? is it OK to publish?
<tuxbrain>
yes go ahead
<wolfspraul>
I am trying to get the press release to a bit more normal level
<wolfspraul>
also then we have a template for the future
<tuxbrain>
full name of the band Nanowar Of Steel
<wolfspraul>
got it
<wolfspraul>
if a journalist takes a press release for their publication, in almost all cases they will have some small (or large) question before they do that
<wolfspraul>
so a quick way for them to contact you is deal
<wolfspraul>
ideal
<wolfspraul>
phone, instant messaging, email
<wolfspraul>
personal email
<wolfspraul>
very important
<wolfspraul>
check the press releases even of the largest companies, there is always an individual at the bottom, with clear contact info
<methril_work>
nice!! press releases at qi-hw!!
<methril_work>
morning
<methril_work>
wolfspraul, nice conversation wit wpwrak about Xue cameras, i'm reading right now because my nick was there :)
<wolfspraul>
yes that's why I nicked you :-)
<wolfspraul>
you sent that mail months ago
<wolfspraul>
asking about Elphel vs. Xue
<methril_work>
yes
<wolfspraul>
I think about it every day
<wolfspraul>
my todo list management is really strange
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<methril_work>
but the conversation gets more interesting :)
<methril_work>
hehehe
<wolfspraul>
I would have so many things to say
<wolfspraul>
but then never get around writing that one, short, meaningful mail
<methril_work>
your conversation motivates the devs to use xue
<wolfspraul>
I haven't found a way to embed the video nicely yet
<wolfspraul>
also, we should say somewhere that all pictures are free to be reused for publishing in any medium or format
<tuxbrain>
mmm about a nanonote for review.... what will be the policy?
<tuxbrain>
I supose discuss case by case, isn't it?
<tuxbrain>
yes the comment about the pictures must be there
<wolfspraul>
of course case by case
<wolfspraul>
99% don't get anything
<wolfspraul>
those guys with a useless website who write you a long email how they need a free device, bla bla bla
<wolfspraul>
but that's not the point, this is a standard offer that just has to be there
<wolfspraul>
of course it is up to you to decide which journalists to work with
<wolfspraul>
methril_work: are you still interested in the diff between Elphel and Xue?
<wolfspraul>
maybe we should try here to clarify it...
<methril_work>
it's pretty clever now
<wolfspraul>
I love Elphel, went to visit them for 3 days in May
<wolfspraul>
I want to cowork with them but so far the opportunity has not come up.
<methril_work>
i see a lot of potential in Open Cameras
<wolfspraul>
Andrey is definitely thinking about high-end stuff.
<methril_work>
well, qi-hw philosophy in cameras
<wolfspraul>
currently the 353 will already cost above 1000 USD in almost all cases
<methril_work>
uf!! so expensive
<wolfspraul>
I fear, but I guess Andrey has no problem with that, that the successor, the 373, will be even more expensive
<wolfspraul>
Elphel and I can only cowork if he sees a point in driving prices down
<wolfspraul>
that is the only thing I can add to his product
<methril_work>
well, maybe the focus is different
<methril_work>
high-end could be used for R&D
<wolfspraul>
but if he doesn't see the point of that, then: a) I cannot cowork with him on 373, because I cannot add anything and b) 373 will be around 2000 USD
<methril_work>
and later on Xue cameras (cheaper) could be used for production
<wolfspraul>
hardware and price is a very difficult and long topic
<wolfspraul>
basically 'low cost' is something you have to go for, and make very aggressive decisions for
<wolfspraul>
many people don't understand the true dynamic of hardware costs
<wolfspraul>
so... I will continue to work wtih Elphel
<methril_work>
most of hackers think that is cheap as sw
<wolfspraul>
in the sense that we already collaborate on the 373, and I am open to manufacture it
<methril_work>
but it's hw
<wolfspraul>
but what can I add... not much, unless Andrey gets the whole 'drive price down' approach, and sees value for his business
<wolfspraul>
actually it's also risky
<methril_work>
i like you help open projects
<wolfspraul>
imagine you have a product with a margin of 500 USD, and you sell 40 a month
<wolfspraul>
so you have a gross profit of 20,000 USD / month
<methril_work>
well, but if you lower prices, you could sell 200 / moth
<methril_work>
only getting 100 USD, you have the same result
<wolfspraul>
now you have this option: you can invest 200,000 USD, and then you can manufacture and sell your product for 1/3rd of the price
<wolfspraul>
yes, but:
<wolfspraul>
are you sure there will be more customers?
<methril_work>
uhm!! interesting question
<wolfspraul>
don't do the easy armchair general thing "yeah, sure"
<wolfspraul>
it is not sure!
<wolfspraul>
maybe you just successfully shot yourself in the foot
<methril_work>
in relly specialized products, is hard to said how you could scale your market
<wolfspraul>
you are selling your product for less now, but you have no guarantee on the other side that your volume goes up accordingly
<methril_work>
nods
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
it's difficult
<wolfspraul>
very difficult to make those decisions
<wolfspraul>
but I am saying to Elphel, I can only add one thing to their great product
<wolfspraul>
COST REDUCTION
<wolfspraul>
and whether they want to add that or not, is up to them
<wolfspraul>
they don't need me on the hardware side, software side, optics, mechanical, anywhere
<methril_work>
we hope to see a hackable camera with lower price
<wolfspraul>
so, Elphel is there, and Elphel is great
<wolfspraul>
and you can buy the 353 today
<wolfspraul>
and you can help Andrey improve the software for the 353
<wolfspraul>
I am talking with them about how I can participate in the 373, but maybe they want to do it all themselves, because they feel this cost reduction thing is too risky or not necessary for their customers
<wolfspraul>
that means the 373 will cost even more when it comes out
<methril_work>
i would love, but i'm lack of time ;) i'm fighting to get 2/3 hours for pending tasks
<wolfspraul>
is it clear now where Elphel stands, from my perspective?
<wolfspraul>
also, Andrey is a quality fanatic
<methril_work>
it's
<wolfspraul>
he uses a proprietary tool for the electrical design
<methril_work>
this is not always bad, quality is iumportant
<wolfspraul>
of course I could say "let's switch to KiCad for 373"
<wolfspraul>
but most likely he would like to continue with the tool he feels most comfortable with
<wolfspraul>
also keep in mind that he is a self-taught electrical, mechanical, and software engineer :-)
<wolfspraul>
he was originally a physicist, working in Moscow's excellent state sponsored physics labs in the 80's :-)
<methril_work>
he is nice, and their blog posts are really good
<wolfspraul>
yes totally
<wolfspraul>
I would love to 'help' them on the 373
<wolfspraul>
if there is anything I can do that they think helps them
<methril_work>
i love to learn optics and why the lens works as they works in his blog
<wolfspraul>
we are in touch about that
<wolfspraul>
yes, he is coming at the camera problem originally as a physics guy
<wolfspraul>
then he built his perfect camera around that...
<methril_work>
i'm also happy that this is not diverging so much (the Ephel - Xue), because joining efforts could help both projects
<wolfspraul>
I have no clue about physics or optics.
<wolfspraul>
I'm a software guy.
<wolfspraul>
well OK I know that the Apple falls towards the earth.
<wolfspraul>
something like that
<wolfspraul>
so I come at the camera problem differently, and I think Andres shares that vision
<wolfspraul>
I want hardware to be as cheap as possible
<wolfspraul>
10 USD
<wolfspraul>
for the whole thing
<wolfspraul>
that's my goal
<methril_work>
hehehehe i'm a sw guy too (or something in the middle)
<wolfspraul>
then have great free software on it to bring it alive
<wolfspraul>
fully scriptable, programmable, the best documentation in the world
<wolfspraul>
do you see 'optical quality' anywhere in my wet dreams? no...
<wolfspraul>
so it's different
<wolfspraul>
of course I want 'as good as possible' optics
<wolfspraul>
but it's more like the iphone thinking
<wolfspraul>
I mean the cameras in the smartphones are getting better and better
<wolfspraul>
and those modules cost a few USD, including lense
<wolfspraul>
I want to participate in that kind of innovation.
<wolfspraul>
nothing against phenomenally good optics, in some industries it's necessary
<wolfspraul>
not only military, also more worthwhile goals
<wolfspraul>
but the Xue angle is different
<wolfspraul>
high optical quality yes, but driven from a reasonable cost basis, and trying to leverage free software as much as possible
<wolfspraul>
the power must come from free software first
<methril_work>
well, i would love to see both products being sell
<wolfspraul>
then from really neat designed, low cost hardware
<wolfspraul>
I want to avoid to compete with Elphel over their customers
<methril_work>
th good thing is that you approach could scale to other fields, like a phone with a "xue" camera inside
<wolfspraul>
but I think most of them need the Elphel cameras for specific performance features of their cameras
<methril_work>
but this is far away
<wolfspraul>
yes totally
<wolfspraul>
no absolutely
<wolfspraul>
that's how I think
<wolfspraul>
first: 10 USD
<wolfspraul>
that's the goal
<wolfspraul>
the fancy lense for Martin Scorsese where the lense alone is already 20,000 USD is a way way way after-thought for me.
<methril_work>
i remember a work that i made where the HW decision was taken cause the price
<wolfspraul>
the question for Xue is - how much camera/optical performance can we squeeze out of 200 USD, or less later, and only using free software and free licensed hardware
<methril_work>
the sw i made, has to be really challenging, due to hw limitations
<wolfspraul>
ok did the message come across somehow?
<methril_work>
yes
<wolfspraul>
about the differences between Elphel & Xue?/////////
<methril_work>
:)
<wolfspraul>
to me they are massively different
<wolfspraul>
Xue will start at 200-300 USD, and then down
<methril_work>
yes, now i see the difference
<wolfspraul>
and the performance has to come from free software, and squeezing every last bit of hardware performance out of standard components, and a free design, KiCad, etc.
<methril_work>
thank you so much for all the clarifications
<wolfspraul>
no thanks for asking
<wolfspraul>
not only do we need your help in making this a reality, but we also need a strong and clear message
<wolfspraul>
first within the believers, and then later to spread
<methril_work>
this is what i love about qi-hw and you
<methril_work>
the messages are clear and loud, and we could see the main focus
<wolfspraul>
hmm
<wolfspraul>
we need to make it more clear still :-)
<methril_work>
:)
<wolfspraul>
anyway
<tuxbrain>
and more loud :)
<wolfspraul>
let's see about Xue
<methril_work>
let's see
<methril_work>
tuxbrain, you are getting the press attention, so.. you are speaking loud :P
<methril_work>
i started to read a brazilian electronic community, i'll try to post and talk about qi-hw
<tuxbrain>
<yoda mode> do or not do it but not try
<methril_work>
lol
<methril_work>
well, time to back to work
<methril_work>
i read you later
<methril_work>
tuxbrain, <young padawan mode> yes master, i'll do ;)
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain: ok done, I leave it like this
<wolfspraul>
I don't expect a big anything now anyway, but I wanted to clean this up so it looks good in our news feed history, and maybe some people will still find it later, and we have a template...
<wolfspraul>
and spread those links among any brazilian journalists or blogs
<tuxbrain>
on for me well done wolfi :)
<wolfspraul>
tuxbrain: btw, what you would normally do now on the release day is that you email, one by one, all journalists known to you
<wolfspraul>
maybe repeat the text in the mail
<wolfspraul>
many websites have 'submit news' forms (not email)
<wolfspraul>
you need to use them
<wolfspraul>
I suggest you work yourself through the world from east to west, because of timezone
<wolfspraul>
so you start in japan, australia, then india, then europe, then us
<wolfspraul>
you can spend one entire day emailing journalists whose contact info (email) you have, or to general 'submit_news@' addresses of media, or to web forms
<wolfspraul>
it's quite boring stuff, but it needs to be done
<wolfspraul>
one full day is enough, after that it's not news anymore anyway
<wolfspraul>
you do not have to be worried about spamming anybody
<wolfspraul>
they _want_ people to write to them
<wolfspraul>
and to submit news
<wolfspraul>
whether you are able to make your stuff stand out is another question
<wolfspraul>
you need to think very carefully about the subject line of your email
<wolfspraul>
or the first/second line in the email body
<wolfspraul>
or the subject line in web forms you fill out
<wolfspraul>
in many cases they are scanning through hundreds of mails/posts, and pick out some they think are interesting
<wolfspraul>
the subject line needs a lot of attention!
<wolfspraul>
(for example the one on this press release is not so catchy, imho, but I also don't have a better one right now)
<wolfspraul>
ideally your news relate to something current that is going on
<wolfspraul>
for example maybe you remember the FreeRunner launch when Steve did the "Openmoko declares independence" news on July 4th
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
that works!
<wolfspraul>
of course it's also risky, let's say Bin Laden decides to attack on the same July 4th
<wolfspraul>
but you have to take those risks
<wolfspraul>
you need to connect your news to something that is CURRENTLY HOT
<wolfspraul>
not something that can also be published a week or month later
<wolfspraul>
ok, so far my general guidelines :-)
<wolfspraul>
hmm, maybe another thing
<wolfspraul>
when you work yourself through the world (east to west), allocate fixed time for the timezones so you don't spend too much or too little somewhere
<wolfspraul>
maybe 2h japan/australia/india, 4h europe, 6h north and south america
<wolfspraul>
12h :-)
<wolfspraul>
you can handle that...
<wolfspraul>
then you need to be able to handle 2 types of work
<wolfspraul>
first, you may get emails or phonecalls back from some people who have questions before they can carry the news
<wolfspraul>
those need to be answered very fast, say within 5 or 10 minutes
<wolfspraul>
then, if someone carries your news, there will be reader comments, and ideally you have some spare energy to manage those comments as well
<wolfspraul>
by saying thanks, by adding more facts, by pointing to your shop, etc.
<wolfspraul>
so if you can, you could allocate an extra help for that release day, say someone who handles incoming mails and phone calls, as well as reader comments, while you are working down the list of countries and publications and journalists to push the news to
<wolfspraul>
worst case you do all this, and nobody picks it up. that can still happen of course, but this is the normal release procedure and release work, so I think it should always be done nonetheless.
<wpwrak>
nice press release !
<xdpirate>
so I heard there was some drama here, why haven't you done anything about it zear, you lazy fuck?
<xdpirate>
wrong channel =(
<larsc>
the drama is still going on ;)
<wpwrak>
do i smell dirty laundry ? ;-)
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: well, the next thing is that the text needs to be written in such a way that you can cut it off easily
<wolfspraul>
but that's too much work now, and we have a somewhat solid base, if only for the archives
<wolfspraul>
then we would need a really strong title/subject line
<wolfspraul>
next time... :-)
<wpwrak>
i don't find the title so bad. "copyleft hardware" in itself is an unusual item.
<wpwrak>
the band name takes care of most of the catchiness anyway :)
<wolfspraul>
but it's not in the title
<wolfspraul>
neither is the album name
<wolfspraul>
like I said, the title needs some real thought
<wolfspraul>
(in general)
<wpwrak>
huh ? the title i see is "Nanowar of Steel, copyleft hardware featuring copyleft music"
<wpwrak>
not sure if you need to cram the album title in there too. may have to be one or the other. else you have an inro paragraph, not a title :)
<wpwrak>
inTro
<wolfspraul>
oh sure
<wolfspraul>
that's the tough part of a good title/headline :-)
<wpwrak>
and if you just concatenate names/titles, then it becomes unparseable
<wolfspraul>
in the end in most cases any journalist picking it up will make his own title anyway
<wolfspraul>
he has to
<wolfspraul>
so the purpose of the title is only to stand out in the flood the journalist is looking at, and making him want to read the rest of the text
<wolfspraul>
so the audience of _our_ title is actually the journalist, not the reader
<wolfspraul>
although of course the journalist can pickup some idea he got from our title into his title
<wpwrak>
there are no links to qi-hw and jlime
<wolfspraul>
but more likely he will make his own anyway
<wpwrak>
yup, the title should work for this. tells them what area it is about and suggests something unusual
<wolfspraul>
my favorite title in the NanoNote launch was '3 adorable inches of Linux'
<wpwrak>
heh heh ;-)
<wolfspraul>
not my title of course, made by some Italian publication
<wolfspraul>
but it was my favorite, definitely
<wolfspraul>
beautiful
<wpwrak>
yup. very cool.you can't not want to read what the heck they mean :)
<wpwrak>
hmm, compared to kdenlive, kino seems to be a bit limited in terms of editing and mixing. also crash-happy :-(
<wpwrak>
@#%*! when i run eeschema on fidelio with a set of files that usually create "ghosts", i get them, too. when i run the same things under strace, poof, gone.
<wpwrak>
QBJECT: he won't want it here. in fact, he won't even like the link you just posted in the IRC log
<QBJECT>
aw crap.
<QBJECT>
[sigh] noted for the future.
<wpwrak>
he'll be up and deleting in a few hours :)
<QBJECT>
At least it can be remedied.
<QBJECT>
is looking up previous logs to get a better sense of where The Line is.
<wpwrak>
no links to packages or instructions for circumventing mp3 on qi-hw
<QBJECT>
Argh. Just found that.
<QBJECT>
"wolfspraul:nothing on the qi-hardware.com or affiliated servers must point towards the patented stuff"
<wpwrak>
no links to places that are strongly associated with such things. that would exclude jlime.com
<wpwrak>
yup
<QBJECT>
contemplates the dangers of unbridled enthusiasm.
<wpwrak>
ah, countless possibilities for that :)
<wpwrak>
(ghostbusting) it gets better. on the next run, they're different again.
<wpwrak>
let's see what turning off heap randomization does ...
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak: [kino] I supouse is matter of luck, due for me kino is the most stable by far, and cutting, is quite straight forward, on effects you can do lot of kind of transitions and such, but well, that's magic  of freedom stay on what you feel more confortable/ productive.
<methril_>
hi
<methril_work>
tuxbrain, i sent the message to some brazilian groups, and a so important hw blog call "Laboratorio na Garagem", had a really good aceptation
<methril_work>
i hope to get some qi devices here soon ;)
<tuxbrain>
cool that means you will retake the be brazilian distributor idea?
<kristianpaul>
damn i cofused TSSOP with SOIC >(
<kristianpaul>
noo
<kristianpaul>
order again from TI...
<kristianpaul>
and wait they aprove it first..
<kristianpaul>
:(
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: had you soldered TSSOP chips with wires? :)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: no, but why wires ?
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: (kino) it seems that you can't have multiple tracks that you mix. e.g., audio tracks. also, it seems that you can't edit effects after applying them.
<wpwrak>
(but maybe i'm wrong about the latter. that one')
<wpwrak>
.. one's from memory
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: (wires) just kidn hurry here to hook thi ship to the SIE and wee what can i read/draw
<kristianpaul>
wires jsutkidding, i can get abreakout board but for SOIC here in colombia
<kristianpaul>
TSSOP by ebay and will take time
<kristianpaul>
kicad, fped, yes i'm larning but i need mroe time,so considering more options
<methril>
tuxbrain, re
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: (breakout board for soic) why wouldn't just just etch it yourself ? tssop and friends are easy
<methril>
tuxbrain, about the distributor... maybe
<tuxbrain>
re
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: i cant find TSSOP in kicad, would you help me?
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: (kicad, fped) learn them now and you'll have your board today or tomorrow ;-)
<methril>
tuxbrain, i'm tgrying to find a workaround for the bureocracy
<kristianpaul>
ohh
<kristianpaul>
ok i'll dig on this on weekend
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: what sort of tssop is it ?
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: Texas tlv1562
<wpwrak>
you could add it to f32xbase/hw/modules/ssop.fpd
<wpwrak>
(it's untested, that's why it lives in a project, not in kicad-libs)
<kristianpaul>
k
<methril>
tuxbrain, i hope it too :)
<ezdagor>
I think I bricked my Nanonote.
<ezdagor>
I was flashing a filesystem to it, and forgot to flash the kernel. Now the unit will not turn on or boot, or do anything. Not even USB booting will work.
<wpwrak>
ezdagor: usb booting = with the rubber button or with U+power ?
<ezdagor>
With the rubber button.
<wpwrak>
ezdagor: have you done the process before ? (successfully)
<ezdagor>
Yes.
<wpwrak>
ezdagor: hmm. just a reminder of the two most common pitfalls:
<wpwrak>
1) make sure the device really resets: remove battery and usb, wait about half a minute, then plug USB. (don't put the battery)
<ezdagor>
Ok. Will try that.
<wpwrak>
2) make sure you press the rubber button before inserting USB and to keep it pressed for a few seconds after connecting USB.
<wpwrak>
also, the process is a bit fumbly, so it may take a few tries to get it right.
<qbject>
Does anyone have a Dingoo w/ Dingux? I'd like to try something and I need some lib files.
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak aisa he, I saw the little mp3 circumvention thing here
<wolfspraul>
just to keep in mind, there is still a concept of free speech, which imo by far trumps patent law
<wolfspraul>
so: everybody in this channel can say and give advice for whatever they want, restricted only by the limitations to free speech as we typicall know and accept them
<wolfspraul>
once in a while, me or other businesses who may be the target of a patent infringement claim, and who use or point to resources on the qi-hardware.com servers, will cleanse the irclog archives (grep mp3 ...), to defend ourselves from the patent infringement claim
<wolfspraul>
but that's about it
<wolfspraul>
I hope nobody feels that their free speech rights on those issues are somehow restricted here. they are not!
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: alright, so anything goes here and we trust that you'll catch them later when checking the logs
<wolfspraul>
me and others who are likely targets of infringement claims will take care of this, sure
<wolfspraul>
it also has to do with the 'quality' of our copyleft hardware project
<wolfspraul>
that we can tell new companies or individuals that want to produce or sell some of our stuff that these things are professionally dealt with, as much as that is possible
<wolfspraul>
plus it's pretty easy
<wolfspraul>
all logs are in one folder
<wolfspraul>
grep -i mp3 *.log
<wpwrak>
sure, due diligence
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wolfspraul>
well, werner would write one sed line in his sleep
<wolfspraul>
we just need to keep the different concepts separate
<wpwrak>
how to circumv3nt emm-pee-three  ;-)
<wolfspraul>
free speech is one thing
<wolfspraul>
patents another
<wolfspraul>
patent infringement another
<wolfspraul>
enforcement of patent infringement yet another
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: I'm sure your uber-sed would catch that one too... :-)
<wpwrak>
alas, courts seem to consider IP claims to trump pretty much anything else
<wolfspraul>
no I don't believe that
<wolfspraul>
the press is also a bit sensationalist at times
<wolfspraul>
so let's say some patent troll sues Megacorp ABC for 25 fantastillions
<wolfspraul>
it surely makes it into all the blogs and tech press
<wolfspraul>
when that suit it thrown out 3 months later, nobody reports about it
<wpwrak>
there are some extremely broad interpretations of what constitutes appropriation of content. perhaps they'll get reversed if you take it to the bitter end of the appeals process, but that's also very expensive
<wolfspraul>
we've already outlined the strategy - focus on real threats, not perceived threats
<wolfspraul>
in the messy patent law that's the only chance if you still want to get work done and still want to serve real customers
<wpwrak>
naw, i'm talking about court rulings. particularly the lower ones can do crazy things.
<wolfspraul>
so that's sisvel, mpeg la, others as we identify them one by one
<wpwrak>
yup
<wolfspraul>
and those guys will not log in here, track the channel, and make some compliated conspiracy case out of it
<wpwrak>
alright, i like the "no gag" rule :)
<wolfspraul>
it just won't happen, I am not interested in spending my time thinking about such things.
<wolfspraul>
an end-consumer device that can play mp3, yes, they try to find the source they can plug into for taxation
<wpwrak>
how about posting a policy ?
<wolfspraul>
well
<wolfspraul>
you wrote a great one
<wpwrak>
(log on) naw, but they may google
<wolfspraul>
I have too many mails in my inbox right now, but will get to it (within the next few hours)
<wolfspraul>
yes sure
<wpwrak>
okay, no rush :)
<wolfspraul>
it it's on the server, and especially if there is a link, and if the link is not taken down (whenever exactly we leave open), then one can legally argue that whoever operates the server infringes
<wolfspraul>
there is no doubt about that, this is a fact
<wpwrak>
not sure if a policy thingy like this would be more good or more bad, but i think people have a right to know what the rules ares
<wolfspraul>
it's good
<wolfspraul>
very god
<wolfspraul>
good
<wpwrak>
kewl. let's see how to proceed with it when you've read it.
<wolfspraul>
I think if I walk into a media-markt (similar like best buy) in Germany today, I can find pirate mp3 devices from China
<wolfspraul>
'pirate' in the sense that nobody paid sisvel
<wolfspraul>
they are fighting the floods (from their perspective), worldwide
<wolfspraul>
they have no time for complicated legal cases
<wolfspraul>
and that is not their business
<wpwrak>
second item: the ghostbusting. my band-aid so far would be to just disable heap randomization. how do you feel about that ?
<wolfspraul>
in the whole world, every day, hundreds of thousands of mp3 devices are manufactured and sold
<wolfspraul>
how many pay the sisvel duty?
<wolfspraul>
what do you think?
<wolfspraul>
20%?
<wolfspraul>
50%?
<wolfspraul>
I don't think more than that for sure
<wolfspraul>
maybe only 10%?
<wolfspraul>
THAT is their opportunity
<wolfspraul>
the other xx%
<wpwrak>
(mp3) yeah, one approach to defeat them would be to create a gazillion of little importers with very shallow pockets. then let them waste money on useless lawsuits ;-)
<wolfspraul>
and it's about time, stuff is made, sold
<wolfspraul>
you have to get the money now, otherwise it's gone
<wolfspraul>
(not theoretically, but practically)
<wolfspraul>
oh sure, they cannot
<wolfspraul>
I am telling you, for someone like dealextreme.com patent problems probably do not exist
<wolfspraul>
I think sisvel would already be happy if no large chain would carry unlicensed mp3 players in 'specials'
<wpwrak>
the small chinese have the advantages that they're a) far away and b) have no investment in a brand name
<wolfspraul>
10 EUR, huge pile of them in the store, bought quick, sold quick, forgotten quick
<wolfspraul>
and who remembers sisvel? nobody! :-)
<wolfspraul>
sure
<wolfspraul>
they change company names faster than I can update my address book
<wpwrak>
so they can also rename quickly. as long as the name changes before sisvel has their confiscation order for customs, they miss that one
<wolfspraul>
totally
<wolfspraul>
now you are slowly in sisvel's world
<wolfspraul>
not about logging into this channel and coming after a few crazy free whatever guys
<wpwrak>
but that model doesn't work for us. we want to build a name, a reputation
<wolfspraul>
true true
<wolfspraul>
but like I said, I am just trying to explain that free speech is still free speech
<wolfspraul>
infringement is another, separate, thing
<wpwrak>
no ... they wouldn't come here to find a target but to find evidence once they've already decided on the attack
<wolfspraul>
and the enforcement of that infringement yet another
<wpwrak>
google site:qi-hardware.com mp3
<wpwrak>
this sort of thing
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
agreed
<wolfspraul>
that's why I was talking about the links, and the need to 'police' them to avoid a successful infringement claim later
<wolfspraul>
but that doesn't restrict anybodys rights to free speech
<wolfspraul>
we can even install a 'mp3 cleansing' script to run daily
<wolfspraul>
takes 10 minutes to setup
<wpwrak>
now you're making "mp3" a forbidden word ;-)
<wolfspraul>
if there is mp3 and http:// in the same line, delete the log line
<wolfspraul>
no
<wolfspraul>
I automatically delete it from the logs
<wolfspraul>
that's different
<kristianpaul>
lets use mpe
<wolfspraul>
and why do I do that?
<wolfspraul>
so that qi-hardware.com is a 'quality source' for people who want to manufacture copyleft hardware
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: i'm at home :)
<wpwrak>
wiki.where.ver/why-you-cant-play-mp3 ;-)
<wolfspraul>
we have the same problem, though with less aggressive people, over microSD
<wolfspraul>
actually any 'SD'
<wolfspraul>
SecureDigital is a trademark
<wolfspraul>
we own no rights to it
<wpwrak>
(uSD) yeah, your favourite :)
<wpwrak>
is SD a trademark, too ?
<kristianpaul>
yes
<kristianpaul>
i think
<wolfspraul>
ideally on the entire tuxbrain.com/qi-hardware.com/any other copyleft hardware guy universe there would be no *SD, anywhere
<wpwrak>
that would suck
<wolfspraul>
I see it as a sign of quality
<wolfspraul>
let's say you are a small shop in the US
<wolfspraul>
you want to see the designs on qi-hardware.com as an opportunity to manufacture something
<wpwrak>
well, quality and relatively pointless annoyance at the same time
<wolfspraul>
you ask "have you guys infringed on anybody's rights with this stuff?"
<wolfspraul>
what's the answer
<wolfspraul>
the answer is "we are in China, we don't care"
<wolfspraul>
not good
<wolfspraul>
so I feel these issues about IP 'cleanliness' are an important measure of quality for our project
<wpwrak>
"we are in the US, there's no way of knowing" ;-)
<wolfspraul>
so others are not worried to use our stuff
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: makes sense?
<wolfspraul>
I don't think we have to work on this every day, but in general that's how I see it.
<wpwrak>
of course
<wolfspraul>
it's a _service_ that we remove all these patented or otherwise appropriated things from our universe
<wpwrak>
a good angle to include in the policy. the current motivation is in a more reactive sense
<wpwrak>
yesh, give it a positive spin
<wolfspraul>
totally
<wolfspraul>
I also don't buy into this patent FUD many people are spreading, but that's another story.
<wolfspraul>
we are working on high quality free content.
<wpwrak>
we don't smash shops. we sell protection. we help business thrive ;-)
<wolfspraul>
that 'smartphone patent lawsuits' map is hilarious, isn't it?
<wpwrak>
on the FUD scale, you surprised me with not wanting to link to jlime.com (front page. inside would be a different story)
<wpwrak>
(lawsuit map) yeah. sheer insanity
<wolfspraul>
I would need to ask a lawyer.
<wolfspraul>
your lust for finding the corner case that is not yet thought through drove you to finding that one, which I don't have an answer for.
<wolfspraul>
the question is whether a 'real' (<a href>) link to the homepage of a free software project can be used to uphold an infringement claim
<wolfspraul>
why is the link there?
<wpwrak>
;-) well, jlime's is about a lot of other things than spreading evil codecs. so it would seem fair (to me) to link to them. of course, i'm neither lawyer nor judge and it wouldn't be my head or wallet on the chopping block either.
<wolfspraul>
what does your company have to do with this free software project?
<wolfspraul>
do you know that when this software is used on your hardware, you are infringing on these patents?
<wpwrak>
it uses some of their output.
<wolfspraul>
see it would get close I think :-)
<wpwrak>
hmm, you mean there should be a warning telling customers NOT to install that package ? ;-))
<wolfspraul>
if I answer 'no' to the last one, they only need to find a small snippet from me somewhere
<wolfspraul>
ha ha
<wolfspraul>
that kind of thing won't work
<wolfspraul>
in fact if you want to play with them, they can get really angry :-)
<wolfspraul>
if I answer 'yes' to the last one, well it's close
<wolfspraul>
I know that I link to the homepage of a software project that could make my device infringe.
<wolfspraul>
well I guess I can only pray then what the ruling will be :-)
<wpwrak>
(if this software is used) in the case of jlime, this would be the case if you either used all the software there or selectively the problematic bits
<wolfspraul>
as I've said before, from my experience and real legal advice. they just want to make it 'impossible' (for regular people) to play mp3 on that damned thing
<wpwrak>
if you pick a random package, chances are that it's perfectly harmless
<wolfspraul>
that's all
<wolfspraul>
they dont' want to argue at infinity about what 'impossible' means
<wolfspraul>
they mean for 99% of normal people
<wolfspraul>
remember what I said above about the percentages of devices they are even catching each day
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: ssop.fpd i dint understand where got it..
<wolfspraul>
it makes no sense to focus on that 1% of software engineers when there is a whole flood of unlicensed devices being sold to regular people every day
<wolfspraul>
if the device cannot play mp3 out of the box, and if it cannot be easily installed, we should be safe already
<wolfspraul>
if in addition there are no instructions or links on websites affiliated with the sellers, we are uber safe
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: there must be some limit in how diluted the infringement can be
<wolfspraul>
everything above that is totally hypothetical and a waste of time, imho
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: hey when you create that proejct??...
<wpwrak>
e.g., by making any device with a sort of cpu, you're creating the possibility of an infringement
<kristianpaul>
ahh the siliconlabs thing
<kristianpaul>
great :) (for the ssop)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: quite a while ago. i'm now making a firmware programmer that doesn't have the chicken and egg problem. (or other excessive prerequisites)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: oh you want it self reproduce?
<wolfspraul>
yes but they cannot claim infringement for the cpu
<wolfspraul>
puh I think we walked through so many times now
<wolfspraul>
the infringement is for a whole machine that they can show to play mp3
<wolfspraul>
they need to show it!
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: the term "affiliated" could use some clarification, too
<wolfspraul>
if you sell devices with an empty nand: no infringement
<wolfspraul>
that's just how it is, legally
<wolfspraul>
no need to argue with me logically
<wolfspraul>
the reason that (in most countries) selling software does not constitute an infringement is that software by itself cannot run
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: not so fast :) empty nand plus link to firmware with codec = infringement
<wolfspraul>
well sure, yes :-)
<wpwrak>
empty nand plus link to site where you can pick a codec or not = infringement ?
<wolfspraul>
installation, instructions for how to make it work _IF_ those things are coming from the seller/importer of the device
<wolfspraul>
yes of course, infringement
<wpwrak>
empty nand plus claim of compatibility with other company infringing = infringement ?
<wpwrak>
and so on
<wolfspraul>
if it's on my website, a website I control or link to
<wolfspraul>
hey I have a new question here
<wolfspraul>
does the patent stuff also apply to selling used goods?
<wolfspraul>
say I sell my used mp3 player on ebay
<wpwrak>
it probably should
<wolfspraul>
let's imagine, hypothetically, that I sell it at a profit
<wolfspraul>
maybe I even have a business of buying used mp3 players in bulk, and selling them on ebay
<wpwrak>
may be just too disperse to hunt
<wolfspraul>
sure
<wpwrak>
then you may no longer be disperse ;-)
<wolfspraul>
but I never thought about this case, or discussed it with a lawyer
<wolfspraul>
like I said, we should stay real
<wolfspraul>
Sisvel is hunting the big guys
<wolfspraul>
they have a flood of unlicensed devices that are bypassing their taxation every day
<wolfspraul>
the reason they came after Openmoko, most likely, was the corporate parents they thought they could drag into the system
<wpwrak>
any. pulster was probably more of an accident. or maybe they thought OM got so much media attention that a warning shot was on order.
<wolfspraul>
no it was the corporate parents they knew about and Sean talked about at every opportunity :-)
<wpwrak>
ah well, maybe that, too
<wolfspraul>
that's the first thing they wanted to know more about :-)
<wpwrak>
ah ! :)
<wolfspraul>
like I said
<wolfspraul>
I'm all for trying to increase the quality of our free content
<wolfspraul>
also the 'free IP' quality
<wolfspraul>
but we also should think wisely how to use our limited resources
<wolfspraul>
endless discussions about totally hypothetical problems harm us more than they help
<wpwrak>
yup. hence avoid doing the reckless things. but there's no need to write the book on IP legal philosophy.
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: so your patent policy is great
<wolfspraul>
yes!
<wolfspraul>
fully agree
<wolfspraul>
and let's keep exchanging experiences, factor the real world in
<wolfspraul>
if a patent owner contacts one of us somewhere, we'll work it from there
<wpwrak>
i have that :)
<wolfspraul>
we can proactively contact some, maybe Lattice, maybe SD consortium, ZigBee, etc.
<wpwrak>
(a clause about reacting to new attacks)
<wolfspraul>
and for some we just have to wait and see when reality hits
<wolfspraul>
of course we are already trying to do our best, 'avoid doing the reckless things' like you said
<wpwrak>
yup. there's no effective general defense anyway.
<wolfspraul>
mp3 is a patented/taxed technology
<wolfspraul>
we all know it, so let's get over with it
<wolfspraul>
our products can't play mp3, done
<wolfspraul>
in a few years it's (hopefully) over
<kristianpaul>
wee :)
<wolfspraul>
until then we use reasonable defense mechanisms as we learnt, in order to avoid a successful infringement claim
<wolfspraul>
and first and foremost that means our devices must not actuall, to a regular person, be able to play mp3
<wolfspraul>
it's actually quite simple :-)
<wolfspraul>
if that is the case, Sisvel has far more juicy targets to go after than hunting down some bizarre circumvention mechanism we are trading under the table here
<wolfspraul>
guaranteed!
<kristianpaul>
what about pantented video codecs?
<wolfspraul>
mpeg4, h.264
<wolfspraul>
same thing
<kristianpaul>
ahap
<wolfspraul>
not all of mpeg4
<wolfspraul>
I use wikipedia as my reference to determine which areas have active patent enforcers in them.
<wpwrak>
yeah. they're running out of time anyway, so they have to focus.
<wolfspraul>
correct!
<wolfspraul>
their enemy is time
<wolfspraul>
they need to make money fast, and in reality
<wpwrak>
at least we have one powerful ally ;-)
<wolfspraul>
not theoretically/hypothetically
<wolfspraul>
Sisvel is in business because they are able to enforce these patenst against microsoft, apple, motorola, etc.
<wolfspraul>
everything else is just noise anyway
<wolfspraul>
it wasn't setup to catch pulster, and it will not stop whether they catch pulster or not
<wolfspraul>
let alone some individuals
<kristianpaul>
so after mp3 what is next , i think is widespread in all the world, so hard to replace?..
<wpwrak>
btw, i thought about your statement that we're doing their work and globally make the patent stick. of course, one could say is that we do the GIF thing and devalue the patent.
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: great !!! you have all kind of SSOP pins :D
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: don't understand. mp3 should be patent free in a few years. there is mp2 now, and Ogg Vorbis
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: welcome to fped's world of plenty ;-)
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: yeah sure, i wonder what tjem Sisvel will look for money ig no more mp3 patent fees
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: yes we are too small to make a difference either way.
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: patented video codes will be with us for a while. well, google may be sabotaging that cartel a bit
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: ahh
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
you start thinking about working for them?
<kristianpaul>
no
<wolfspraul>
Werner found some cruel links the other day...
<kristianpaul>
NO :)
<wolfspraul>
don't worry I am sure they find more fuel for their engine
<wolfspraul>
they have a number of 'programs'
<wolfspraul>
to them those are like products
<wolfspraul>
and of course they are looking for more input
<wolfspraul>
submitpatents@sisvel.com
<wolfspraul>
they will continue to be with us in consumer electronics, I'm sure
<wolfspraul>
once you have a successful business relationship with Microsoft, Apple, and all the others, you will try to find new ways of doing business together :-)
<kristianpaul>
hey you missed g00gl3 !
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: if you're the kind who eventually snaps under work pressure and does a little massacre, perhaps then you SHOULD consider working for them :)
<wolfspraul>
does Google pay them? I don't know
<wolfspraul>
they publish a list of licensees on their website
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: no thanks :)
<wolfspraul>
of course the exact individual arrangements are not published, so you can see that list as propaganda as well
<wpwrak>
there are so many people who function outside the usual system of detection and deterrence. someone who'd figure out how to use them would rule the planet :)
<wolfspraul>
hey I have some good news
<kristianpaul>
:) ?
<wpwrak>
they're always welcome ;-)
<wolfspraul>
it seems Fedora Electronics Lab will jump onto the Milkymist wagon and try to support Milkymist development out of the box
<wolfspraul>
Sebastien and Chitlesh had a good phone call, and setup a big wishlist for Milkymist in FEL
<kristianpaul>
ah yes (old news for me)
<wolfspraul>
ok sorry, if guys are following the milkymist-devel they know already
<kristianpaul>
really BIG, but is great :)
<wolfspraul>
yes but Chitlesh is a very serious guy
<wolfspraul>
work on that list will start, it will happen
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: very nice indeed !
<wolfspraul>
so I'm very happy about that
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: hopefully also generates some visibility
<kristianpaul>
so you can ship FEH with Milkymist as a full devel kit i the future
<wolfspraul>
I am thinking about a nice press release for 27c3
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: yes that too
<wolfspraul>
we still have time for that
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: i've been bitching about crappy PR for a while. now wolfgang is all set on PR ;-)
<wolfspraul>
hmm
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: good idea :-)
<wolfspraul>
on a bootable USB stick maybe?
<kristianpaul>
oh yes :)
<wolfspraul>
I think most bioses support boot from usb nowadays
<wpwrak>
diskless, with remote storage in a repository on project ;-) boot right into your CC-BY-SA project ;-)
<wolfspraul>
well it's all a lot of work, let's see what we can get done
<kristianpaul>
anyway i relly want to see that FEL, so far i'll stick on debian
<wpwrak>
s/project/projects/
<kristianpaul>
relly/really
<wpwrak>
we need a edit-bot :)
<wpwrak>
s/a/an/ # argh
<wolfspraul>
when you swear at the edit bit it will stop working for 5 minutes
<wolfspraul>
edit bot!!!
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wpwrak>
it's contagious :)
<wolfspraul>
how can we visualize Milkymist?
<wolfspraul>
we need one or two really strong pictures/photos
<wolfspraul>
we have a nice logo, people like it
<wolfspraul>
but it's very abstract
<kristianpaul>
qemu...  may work
<kristianpaul>
ahh that visualize !
<wpwrak>
off to the kitchen, gotta do some etching
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: yes, for the press release
<wolfspraul>
maybe some silicon/gate-level stuff?
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: show some cool VJ application ? and the box overlaid ?
<wolfspraul>
but that's too app-related
<wolfspraul>
this is a Verilog SoC project
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: there is no such us thing yet
<wolfspraul>
it's about Intel, ARM, MIPS
<wpwrak>
an app EXAMPLE :)
<wolfspraul>
a picture of a retro-looking DIP chip?
<kristianpaul>
hmm
<wolfspraul>
I don't know what works.
<wolfspraul>
of course Sebastien has to like it too.
<wolfspraul>
but we can help him with some suggestions to pick from
<kristianpaul>
oops?
<wolfspraul>
on one hand it's software, source codes
<kristianpaul>
i dont know if the NO ARM campaing is not too nasty (for then )
<wolfspraul>
have no browser right now, will look at it later :-)
<wolfspraul>
don't be negative unless you have to
<wolfspraul>
we don't have to
<kristianpaul>
ok
<wolfspraul>
please nothing negative about others
<wolfspraul>
ARM is great, we are better
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
my problem right now is a really strong picture
<kristianpaul>
hehe
<wpwrak>
("you don't need no stinking connectivity" giggle)
<wolfspraul>
it's not urgent
<wolfspraul>
if you google for milkymist you will see the problem right away (images.google.com)
<wolfspraul>
the best you can find are those milkdrop effects
<wpwrak>
ask sebastien if he has some impressive-looking VJ screenshot ? it just has to look good, catch the eye.
<wolfspraul>
but that's milkdrop, screenshots of a piece of software that you can also run on your Windows PC
<wolfspraul>
no he won't have it, and I still don't like it
<wolfspraul>
if Sebastien likes it fine :-)
<wolfspraul>
I need something that visualizes an IC design
<wolfspraul>
so it fits in a line with Intel, ARM, MIPS
<kristianpaul>
the IC with the SoC inside is not bad idea
<wolfspraul>
if we do a press release, we can have 2 or 3 good pictures, and they can be very different in terms of their perspective on the project
<wolfspraul>
journalists picking the story up will choose which one they think works anyway
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: what do you mean? "IC with SoC inside"?
<wolfspraul>
how does that look like?
<wolfspraul>
Intel always has those clean-room pics
<wolfspraul>
or the wafer
<wolfspraul>
everybody seems to love wafers
<wolfspraul>
and some guy in a white suit holding the wafer
<kristianpaul>
the IC is semi-trasparent
<kristianpaul>
and a small SoC picture inside that
<wpwrak>
i'd keep the image to make it clear what it can do. after all, it is optimized for fast graphics.
<kristianpaul>
hmm
<wolfspraul>
the press release should be about free IC design, free CPU
<wolfspraul>
I think
<wolfspraul>
put it on the map as an alternative to ARM, MIPS
<wpwrak>
sure, write about all that. but show the stuff that catches the eye.
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: i cannot imagine how what you are describing looks like :-)
<kristianpaul>
hmm may the the IC wafle (yummy) and then a SoC over it
<wpwrak>
you're unlikely to successfully introduce a sign language for "this is reconfigurable hardware implementing a SoC"
<wolfspraul>
"semi-transparent IC with small SoC picture inside"
<kristianpaul>
hehe
<wolfspraul>
not 'sign language'
<wolfspraul>
it doesn't need to be a big thing
<wolfspraul>
can be any shot
<wpwrak>
too complex. you can have a diagram with the subsystems superimposed on a big chip. write FPGA somewhere.
<wolfspraul>
I'm just saying if we want to do a press release, we need 2-3 nice pics
<wolfspraul>
and we don't have them today
<wolfspraul>
the best we have are the milkdrop screenshots
<wolfspraul>
which I think are totally misleading
<kristianpaul>
indeed the SoC is no where there
<wpwrak>
something like fig 1-1 of Jz4740_ds
<wolfspraul>
of course we could just take a few lines of Verilog in a large font (like 2-3 lines only in the picture)
<wolfspraul>
but something that makes people think, something nice
<wolfspraul>
the Verilog can even be fake
<wolfspraul>
but in Verilog syntax
<kristianpaul>
may be the current SoC combined with some IC behind..
<wpwrak>
milkdrop on a big screen in the background. pcb or just the big chip in the front.
<wpwrak>
people who'll recognize the verilog know what an FPGA is :)
<wolfspraul>
yeah some little logic like if (cpu == arm) { switch_to_something_better(milkymist); } in Verilog syntax
<wolfspraul>
of course more interesting that my if()
<wpwrak>
i thought "no negative" ? :)
<wolfspraul>
sure sure
<wolfspraul>
just my idea
<wolfspraul>
couple lines of large font, verilog syntax, and some text in it with the message
<kristianpaul>
you said before the MM One was the apple I for this copyleft era
<wpwrak>
fine. overlay the milkdrops with a verilog listing in the classical green CRT style.
<wolfspraul>
if (want_free_cpu) use_milkymist(); else use_arm_mips_x86();
<kristianpaul>
:D
<wpwrak>
put the chip/board in front.
<wpwrak>
don't make the verilog _say_ anything. just make it look like it's doing something important
<wolfspraul>
sure
<wolfspraul>
that's another way
<wolfspraul>
well we have time for this
<wolfspraul>
and maybe we should play with several ideas
<wolfspraul>
just a heads up
<wolfspraul>
if we do a press release for 27c3, it's still 2+ months out
<wolfspraul>
I think the press release should first introduce milkymist, not Milkymist One
<wpwrak>
has sebastien killed the stability bug ?
<wolfspraul>
Milkymist One can be mentioned a little into the text, as a way to jump in, together with FEL (quote from Chitlesh etc)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: hey that FT232RL dingle is so quite :)
<kristianpaul>
s/dingle/dongle
<wolfspraul>
no stability bug still there
<wolfspraul>
he is trying the new ISE 12.3 now
<wpwrak>
(intro) perhaps both. describe the concept, then the implementation
<kristianpaul>
it seems s LM32 bug
<wolfspraul>
so that is a big risk for RC2, but I'm taking it anyway
<kristianpaul>
SDRAM passes memtest
<wolfspraul>
ah not sure
<wpwrak>
(mem bug) argh :-(
<wolfspraul>
could be anywhere
<wpwrak>
well, it's reconfigurable. you can fix it in the field ;-)
<wolfspraul>
Yanjun Luo keeps saying he suspects power issues.
<kristianpaul>
yeah :(
<wolfspraul>
not if it's a power related issue
<kristianpaul>
but is on ML401 too
<kristianpaul>
so...
<wolfspraul>
RC2 has a number of improvements on the power side
<kristianpaul>
even witht the other propietary xilinx tool still the bug present
<wolfspraul>
no more shared GND vias, some additional/better capacitors
<wpwrak>
you can add heuristics that slow down a little when power may run out ;-)
<kristianpaul>
lol :)
<wolfspraul>
eventually we will fix it
<wolfspraul>
I like tough bugs.
<wpwrak>
c'mon, Intel and AMD are doing very similar stuff to keep their chips from overheating :)
<wolfspraul>
tough bugs are the best criteria for determining whether a project succeeds or fails.
<wolfspraul>
so the earlier the better, then we know our fate :-)
<wpwrak>
i can pass that challenge ;-)
<wolfspraul>
you know, when Dieter fixed the #1024 bug, after 1 year, on the same day that everybody was fired (coincidence), I knew we were on the right track, just cut off by investors with more money than brain.
<wolfspraul>
everybody can start with some crap, and the moment they run into a tough bug they give up, start another stupid project, etc.
<wpwrak>
yeah :) i actually felt really good about the state of OM just before the killing.
<kristianpaul>
taking about invetor how freerunner/openmoko got funded?
<wolfspraul>
but if you are able to fix the toughest bugs, you have a very strong argument to work with real customers.
<kristianpaul>
inveor/investors
<kristianpaul>
taking/talking
<wolfspraul>
so I like the milkymist instability bug, and so far we are doing all the right things to track it down
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: not sure if customers think like this. as a customer, i'd prefer to never know of any hard bugs you may have fixed :)
<wolfspraul>
first and foremost Sebastien of course, but some people can repro it too and are helping
<wolfspraul>
oh no
<wolfspraul>
as a customer, the only thing you care about is that the guy selling you something won't go away when there is a REAL problem
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: it's a bit like people praising the great warranty repair service of some companies. i never quite understood their logic :)
<wolfspraul>
because 9x% of 'partners' are gone in that case
<wpwrak>
yup. open is the key. no single point of failure.
<wolfspraul>
ok but that not's a good argument to propose yourself to a customer
<wolfspraul>
but of course yes, it is an advantage
<kristianpaul>
aso if the customer is an artist..
<kristianpaul>
s/aso/also
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: definitelly i'll fork your work (f32xbase)Â Â have all i need
<kristianpaul>
also a Makefile :)
<wpwrak>
anyway. time for acid. make the boards really cute :)
<kristianpaul>
wich ones??
<wpwrak>
the c2usb boards
<wpwrak>
the design is still untested
<wpwrak>
but with some luck, this will change tonight :)
<kristianpaul>
btw i editing the ft232 to fit my tlv1562 by hand (editor) i guess is okay
<kristianpaul>
i aslow ill rename it
<kristianpaul>
best wishes !
<wpwrak>
now, the soldering ...
<kristianpaul>
hey that was fast !
<wpwrak>
yeah, i got a good mix with the acid. very hungry :)
<kristianpaul>
i hope do my acid this weekend finally, now that board thickness dont stop me :)
<kristianpaul>
hmm i need flux (added TO DO)
<wpwrak>
i recommend water soluble. it's quite conductive but it's easy to get rid of.
<kristianpaul>
how i ask for that in spanish?
<kristianpaul>
remenber i live in a small town at weekends :)
<kristianpaul>
that is when have time go shop
<wpwrak>
ask them to show you their fluxes :)
<wpwrak>
but in a small town, they may not have the good fluxes
<kristianpaul>
is a marker
<kristianpaul>
i saw it
<wpwrak>
marker is good
<wpwrak>
now .. what to glue under the board to make it a little thicker ...
<wpwrak>
and thw winner is "melamina"
<kristianpaul>
hmm how i can visually chnage the pin position for this lib..
<kristianpaul>
pins names and number are ok, just messed up over the U11 in a non nicelly order :/
<wpwrak>
and it enumerates. hehe :)
<wpwrak>
something liek M to move ? or right-click and then it's somewhere