<jkyle>
I'm looking for a library to generate xml. I found nokogiri, but the documentation is a bit....light. could anyone recommend a good secondary reference for nokogiri or a better documented library?
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<drbrain>
there is no better library than nokogiri
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<zenspider>
mbj: dude. I don't like it either. heckle.rb is terrifying.
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<zenspider>
but put the blame where the blame is due. I didn't write that. Nobody on Seattle.rb did. phiggins is slowly but surely engineering it into something maintainable, but that takes time
<zenspider>
whitequark: and as for your bullshit above... you work on a single parser for 6 years and come back at me with your "he doesn't care about his code" ... 9 years if you count parsetree.
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<zenspider>
I'm allowed to take a break and let other contribute updates. If you don't like the way I'm handling it, you can write your own... oh wait. you are. So why the fuck are you flipping me shit?
<whitequark>
zenspider: I'm writing my own for a single reason: it's impossible to collaborate with you. I'd much rather spend my time on something more interesting and/or useful than hostile forking or whatnot.
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<zenspider>
impossible to collaborate with me? what the fuck are you talking about?
<zenspider>
You have some bug up your ass like I __OWE__ you something. Do you pay me? No. Do you have any relationship with me other than reporting issues against my code? (which I appreciate, even if I don't jump on them as fast as you'd like) No.
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<whitequark>
yes? I spent four weeks writing a new lexer for RP, which is currently in a PR you didn't care enough about to respond to?
<zenspider>
I write open source. I have ~75 projects that I work across. I don't work on one or two anymore. I work on a LOT of projects. That I don't act like I'm at your beck and call makes me "impossible" to collaborate with?
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<zenspider>
fuck you and your entitlement. I'm not your bitch. I have EVERY intention of evaluating your lexer and merging it in if it will save me blood and tears. But to act like I __OWE__ you and should work on YOUR schedule? absolutely fucking not.
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<whitequark>
oh, and there's also this lack of acceptance of any changes which make the public interface more sane, etc.
<whitequark>
rofl.
<zenspider>
I was nose down working on my talk for MWRC when your lexer came in. I've been catching up on my backlog since and working on my flay enhancements...
<zenspider>
that's horseshit too
<zenspider>
I spent all day working on contributions to flog that were entirely about refactoring the API to make it more usable in CIs
<zenspider>
(which is gonna wreck havok on the guy's GC... but there's nothing I can do about that)
<andrewvos>
75 projects? Jesus.
<whitequark>
zenspider: the problem is that the changes which I need from RP and am technically able to contribute to RP on my own (source maps) would involve touching pretty much every single part of it
<whitequark>
and I don't see how you can merge that in any reasonable time
<whitequark>
75 projects, whatever, that doesn't make it easier to contribute to your projects.
<whitequark>
I guess it's too much?
<zenspider>
if github issue search is to be trusted (no clue), you've filed 7 tickets against RP. I've closed 4 of them... so I'm ~60% closure rate with you. yet I'm "impossible to work with"
<zenspider>
those numbers seem low
<mbj>
zenspider: back from phone
<whitequark>
um, I filed 26 tickets against RP, of which 16 are closed
<zenspider>
yeah. I can only search by a word, so if your own name shows up in a description it is a hit.
<mbj>
zenspider: I see my comments to heckle more as constructive critism, before I started mutant I tried to improve heckle, but failed.
<zenspider>
that brings me up to 61%
<zenspider>
mbj: dude. so did I. many times.
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<mbj>
zenspider: And naturally I feel mutant surpasses heckle at all metrics ;)
<whitequark>
zenspider: I was referring to a) your response to my suggestions on the AST format, and b) the turnaround time.
<zenspider>
when I wrote heckle as a proof of concept, it was small and pretty. a contributor went a bit nuts with it, and then his company got bought by MS, and they shut down everyone on open source.
<whitequark>
(and c) that your response is far too often "fuck you", either literally or not.)
<zenspider>
I got stuck with heckle in its current form. luckily phiggins is starting to make sense of it and get proper test backfill
<whitequark>
but actually I don't care about c) that much. it's just hard to convince anyone else that working on seattlerb projects is beneficial. every single person who I've talked with about seattlerb (six, currently, I think) thinks you're a jerk impossible to work with. I guess that's a statistic.
<zenspider>
whitequark: a&c) disagreeing with you is not "fuck you". b) again, I'm not your bitch. you don't pay me. I don't owe you, time or otherwise.
<whitequark>
zenspider: plain out "No" *is* a "fuck you"
<zenspider>
FUCK YOU is FUCK YOU
<zenspider>
No is disagreeing
<whitequark>
disagreeing implies reasoning.
<zenspider>
I don't owe you. FUCK YOU if you think I do
<zenspider>
no. I don't even owe you an explanation. Some shit just doesn't work out. If you think I'm at your beck and call, well.... you're fucking wrong
<whitequark>
as per "owe you"... this is exactly what I mean by "don't care about your projects". you can't handle 75 projects. it's not possible to contribute to them, due to your lack of time and your attitude.
<zenspider>
my attitude... that's funny.
<zenspider>
All I see is entitlement above
* whitequark
shrugs
<whitequark>
I guess you only see what you want to. Not news. Regardless, I'm done with this
<whitequark>
it's hilarious and sad when people respond to contributions with "fuck you".
<zenspider>
and I hate to break it to you... having 6 whole datapoints doesn't constitute everyone/anyone
<zenspider>
math isn't that hard.
<zenspider>
I'm saying "fuck you" to your attitude here and now. nothing more.
<zenspider>
go ahead and search the issues for "fuck"... it shows up... never towards you or anyone for that matter (negatively, that is)
<whitequark>
I don't have an issue with swearing. I do have an issue with silent disregard of contributions / attempts at them without even providing an explanation.
<zenspider>
I remember asking you about your opinion on an AST format and not getting a response... should I simply write you off as "impossible to work with"?
<eval-in>
whitequark => /tmp/execpad-1097f19838db/source-1097f19838db: invalid encoding symbol (EncodingError) (http://eval.in/15995)
<zenspider>
and reification doesn't matter one whit. you just have more symmetry OCD than I do.
<whitequark>
zenspider: no, it does.
<whitequark>
remember that parser has complete source maps.
<whitequark>
you can't attach source maps to symbols no matter how badly you want that
<zenspider>
you pushed for me to go back to 100% asts AFTER I released. That'd be backwards incompatible and I'd have to do another major release
<zenspider>
I don't know what you're referring to
<zenspider>
source maps
<zenspider>
again... doesn't make me "impossible to work with"
<whitequark>
besides, it even matters for everything else. ruby implementation, converting AST back to source, whatever. everything's way simpler when you can iterate the AST uniformly
<whitequark>
source maps mean that to each node, I attach the information which can locate where in the source it has originated
<zenspider>
obviously I disagree. having an :args node to wrap the names of the slots is totally doable.
<zenspider>
obviously I have a bunch of code that handles that. have for years and years.
<whitequark>
b) to be able to perform source-to-source transformations without pretty-printing the AST, which is practically impossible to do and get the original text back, with comments and formatting and stuff
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<zenspider>
I _do_ need to have Sexp support better location info
<whitequark>
zenspider: no. you don't have column numbers. it's mostly useless.
<whitequark>
ruby's diagnostics truly suck, on every single impl (as all of them use MRI's parser basically)
<zenspider>
I'm addressing "everything is way simpler when you can iterate an AST uniformly"
<zenspider>
and I'm saying that statement is wrong
<whitequark>
oh
<zenspider>
and I have years of code to prove that wrong
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<zenspider>
you're speaking about one very specific thing, and yes, RP / SP doesn't address it well enough
<zenspider>
and I totally agree with your diagnostics line above, they all suck
<zenspider>
tho for a language as dynamic as ruby... I'm not sure what diagnostics you're gonna add. If this were smalltalk and everything were available... sure.
<whitequark>
re args node: well, it did simplify *my* code quite a bit, and folks like mbj agree with me. but whatever. to have source maps, you *need* to wrap them in nodes so that'd be a non-issue anyway
<zenspider>
but they made a specific decision (which I fought) to toss all parse info when eval starts
<whitequark>
zenspider: yorickpeterse's linter, for example, has a partial evaluator
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<whitequark>
and he definitely needs the column numbers and stuff
<whitequark>
besides, I'm writing a statically compiled ruby-based lang, and perfect diagnostics are mandatory
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<whitequark>
there's a lot of stuff you can do with precise source location info.
<whitequark>
zenspider: (re toss all parse info) that's a good one actually, parse info occupies a lot of memory
<zenspider>
yes, but you're talking about how ruby's diagnostics suck. ... that's a big reason why
<andrewvos>
I want to do something with emoji in Terminal.app and maybe vim.
<whitequark>
zenspider: parser's going to have two modes of operation. one of them only collects line numbers, the other collects complete info
<zenspider>
its that or you go the rebuild the info on error route .... sometimes the info is still available. sometimes it isn't.
<whitequark>
zenspider: the idea is that you parse in the "baseline" mode in order to execute stuff, and when you want a diagnostic, you lazily reparse the source
<whitequark>
it is *way* more efficient to just keep the source around. V8 does that.
<whitequark>
you can even compress it if that's a problem, it'll easily be 10x smaller in ram.
<zenspider>
we're obviously talking past each other at this point.
<mbj>
whitequark, zenspider: I'm following your discussion with interest but are ddosed by my phone...
<whitequark>
zenspider: hm? we're talking about the same thing here, no?
<zenspider>
mbj: heh. well... I'm losing coherency as it gets later.
<whitequark>
"rebuild the info on error" is what I suggest
<zenspider>
whitequark: we are. and you're repeating back things I've already said like I didn't.
* whitequark
shrugs
<zenspider>
I've had all these discussions with ruby-core when they made the decision to toss it (based, mostly(?), on data from jruby... the language that uses 2x more memory than any other impl)
<zenspider>
and while several of us in seattle.rb have commit bit, we have very very little influence on the actual design of the internals. (which I'm ok with, the more I read the internals :P)
<zenspider>
so mostly we stick to doco and stdlib library enhancements
<zenspider>
anyhow.
<whitequark>
zenspider: ok. what I want is to add an RP compat mode to `parser`, which'll add a small amount of code shared across all grammars, incl upcoming ruby20.y.
<whitequark>
so if you want to get lazy and avoid merging lexer/writing 20 support/adding source maps, I'm ok with supporting that
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<whitequark>
all the features in parser, including 100% grammar test coverage, come for free ;)
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<zenspider>
I've been working on PT/RP/SP for almost a decade. It gets old... I am more than happy to fold your lexer in assuming it runs my gauntlet at least as well as my POS lexer does but I may not do it in the timeframe you seem to expect. Give me a fucking break. Bullshit like "he doesn't care about his code" is horseshit
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<zenspider>
see? I'm tired. I'm now comparing bullshit and horseshit like they're the same thing
<zenspider>
s/is horseshit/is simply false/
<zenspider>
words... hard.
<zenspider>
(same goes with 2.0 support)
<whitequark>
I don't exactly care about merging stuff upstream in RP anymore. Timeframes, etc, etc. I'll update my PR because I do fucking care about what I said, but that's about it
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<whitequark>
What I said about RP compat and support remains. Parser supports parsing/runs on 1.8. It can probably be a drop-in replacement.
<zenspider>
but you DO care about slandering my efforts and my code. got it.
<zenspider>
right. I guess that's that then.
<whitequark>
slandering, huh.
<whitequark>
you are not your code.
<zenspider>
don't use MY LINE on me
<zenspider>
whitequark: "zenspider doesn't care about his code and doesn't want to spend time on people who care"
<whitequark>
zenspider: "IMO".
<whitequark>
that is an opinion. which I concluded from trying to pull various stuff to RP across six months or so, and interacting with you, and watching other people interact with you.
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<zenspider>
the fact that it is your opinion doesn't exempt it... it just makes it yours
<whitequark>
should I redirect you to wikipedia?
<whitequark>
"is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, *expressly stated or implied to be factual*"
<zenspider>
you've said your peace. I've pointed out both my offence and how you're wrong. you've chosen not to apologize. I get it.
<whitequark>
I did not state that as a fact. Merely as opinion. Whatever.
<zenspider>
oxford american english: "the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation" ... (obviously I think of IRC as spoken... dunno why but I always have)
<zenspider>
anyhow. I'm done
<whitequark>
yeah.
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<apeiros>
yay, that was #ruby-lang drama
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<judofyr>
andrewvos: you're right, this is #ruby-lang drama
<whitequark>
they're a bit slow on accepting even trivial patches, but so far no one told me to fuck off
<whitequark>
yorickpeterse: ruby-llvm/ruby-llvm
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<yorickpeterse>
ah
<yorickpeterse>
so you use ruby-llvm, generate some llvm bytecode/whatever and you're good to (putting aside writing a lexer/parser for now)?
<yorickpeterse>
(I didn't know about any non C bindings for it until a few minutes ago)
<whitequark>
llvm comes with ocaml out of the box
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<whitequark>
also I seriously considered writing the whole thing in ocaml, actually
<yorickpeterse>
how so? Because of the official API?
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<whitequark>
no, it's just a great language. much so for writing language impls, indeed.
<whitequark>
the ocaml bindings are just as lacking as C ones
<whitequark>
eg no way to create a volatile store, or atomic one
<yorickpeterse>
hmmm
<whitequark>
ruby-llvm is just for the back-end
<yorickpeterse>
I was thinking of messing around with writing my own language, ruby-llvm probably makes this easier than doing that in C
<whitequark>
lexer/parser are front-end
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<whitequark>
remember: compilers are the only things with three ends :D
<whitequark>
there's also middle-end.
<whitequark>
or: the optimizing passes.
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<whitequark>
aka "the key part of foundry"
<yorickpeterse>
so does one require Ruby in order to, say, compile Foundry?
<yorickpeterse>
Or does it compile itself?
<whitequark>
it doesn't; it a plain old ruby app
<whitequark>
with bundler and shit
<yorickpeterse>
hm
<whitequark>
runs on jruby. or going to run, when deployed
<whitequark>
(I debug on mri due to startup time)
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<yorickpeterse>
does ruby-llvm allow you to write stuff that doesn't require Ruby? As in, I write a compiler using it that itself (once compiled to LLVM voodoo) doesn't require Ruby?
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<whitequark>
yorickpeterse: ruby-llvm does not add any runtime dependencies
<whitequark>
why would it?
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<whitequark>
it basically lets you compose some llvm bitcode.
<ericwood>
you never know these days
<whitequark>
(maybe also optimize it, etc, but you could as well do that with `opt`, `llc`, etc)
<whitequark>
ericwood: hehehe
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<ericwood>
the world has gone mad
<ericwood>
we have java ruby
<whitequark>
no, I lied: it actually requires the user to have a node.js runtime
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<ericwood>
>.<
<yorickpeterse>
whitequark: hmmmm
<yorickpeterse>
well node.js is webscale so thats ok
<yorickpeterse>
Ruby doesn't scale
<ericwood>
nope
<ericwood>
good thing nobody uses it
<yorickpeterse>
Ruby also has threads which are ew
<ericwood>
single threaded event-driven IO or DIE
<whitequark>
and don't you dare to apply CPS transform to your code!
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* whitequark
wonders about that
<ericwood>
don't think so much
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<whitequark>
I can take uglyify.js and in a hour or two write a transformation which tangles the callback hell from nicely linear code
<whitequark>
why the fuck no one did that already
<ericwood>
:|
<whitequark>
it's, like, trivial?
<ericwood>
I want something that removes unused CSS from rails apps
<whitequark>
ericwood: chrome dev tools have that
<whitequark>
well, not automated
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<ericwood>
well, I'm talking more about through the WHOLE APPPPPP
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<ericwood>
we have a shitfuckington of legacy code in application.css that I want to kill
<ericwood>
but I'm scared to for fear of destroying features
<ericwood>
...back in the day some people who do not work here anymore practiced OOCSS
<whitequark>
... I'm already scared
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<ericwood>
yeah
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<ericwood>
switching to the assset pipline and bundles is soooo much better
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<judofyr>
whitequark: you here?
<judofyr>
I need help with naming
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<judofyr>
whitequark: in ERB there's really only three nodes: plain text, <% %> and <%= %>. what are some good name for those? I've been using :static, :code and :dynamic, but it doesn't feel quite right.
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<zzak>
% only executes
<zzak>
%= executes and outputs the return
<judofyr>
zzak: yes. got a good name for the AST nodes?
<zzak>
% could be :eval, and %= could be :yield
<zzak>
probably not the best names, but i tried
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<zzak>
also, why not :plain for the plain text?
<zzak>
you can probably do better than :eval and :yield
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<judofyr>
that's what I'm trying
<zzak>
maybe :value
<zzak>
and :expression?
<judofyr>
I was also thinking about :expression and :statement
<judofyr>
e.g. "return value matters" vs not
<zzak>
yeah
<zzak>
my brain works like that too
<zzak>
:expression for %= and :statement for %, right?
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<judofyr>
yes
<judofyr>
or maybe :expr and :stmt
<judofyr>
I like it short
<zzak>
yeah
<zzak>
like ripper does
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<zzak>
:expr and :stmt are better than :code and :dynamic
<judofyr>
agreed
<zzak>
and i like :plain for plain text
<tpope>
no accounting for poor taste I guess
<tpope>
or to put it in terms you can understand
<tpope>
no acctng 4 poor tst
<judofyr>
zzak: I kinda like :text. it lines up with :expr and :stmt
<judofyr>
and I love lining up lines
<zzak>
that too
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<zzak>
LUL
<judofyr>
that's one of my biggest problem with English
<judofyr>
yes/no
<judofyr>
true/false
<judofyr>
up/down, left/right
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<judofyr>
WHY CAN'T THEY LINE UP IN MONOSPACE?
<zzak>
back/front
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<judofyr>
width/height
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<zzak>
light/dark
<zzak>
big/small
<judofyr>
on/off
<judofyr>
enable/disable
<judofyr>
start/stop
<tpope>
start/stop begin/end first/last
<zzak>
what have we done..
<judofyr>
I love splitting images horizontally
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<judofyr>
because then I can use:
<judofyr>
UPPER and LOWER
<judofyr>
I feel so great
<judofyr>
anyway
<judofyr>
:text, :expr, :stmt for now
<judofyr>
tpope: and hey, your nickname is an abbreviation too :)
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<ddfreyne>
Hmm… I’m working on a project and I need a way to manage ideas, and let them be reviewed by others
<tpope>
even still
<tpope>
stmt is retarded
<ddfreyne>
I was thinking a wiki, but you can’t assign ideas to others for being reviewed
<judofyr>
tpope: I kinda agree with you
<ddfreyne>
Something like an issue tracker, but I don’t want to reuse the GitHub issue tracker
<ddfreyne>
Any ideas?
<judofyr>
tpope: sry, I mnt, I knd agr wth U
<tpope>
I think statement is fine
<tpope>
I don't know why you anticipate so much alignment
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<judofyr>
you're probably right
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<zzak>
stmt is what ripper uses
<zzak>
ddfreyne: what was that one rubygems was using?
<judofyr>
zzak: ddfreyne: Trello
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<zzak>
yeah
<ddfreyne>
Ahh, this could be quite interesting
<judofyr>
I like writing template engines
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<judofyr>
it's like writing compilers, just without the hard work
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<ddfreyne>
judofyr: I noticed
<judofyr>
ddfreyne: is that a good or a bad thing?
<spike|spiegel>
getting noticed is almost always a bad thing
* judofyr
hides
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<ggreer>
I respectfully disagree. there are some annoyances but it's mostly been good for me
<spike|spiegel>
too polite, not good for health
<zzak>
judofyr: maintaining template engines is hard work
<zzak>
<3
<judofyr>
zzak: I just ship them off to others :P
<judofyr>
zzak: minad is dealing with Temple/Slim. no-one is working on Mustache.
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<ggreer>
the great thing about open source software is that if people complain, you can say "patches welcome" :)
<judofyr>
ggreer: you're the ag-guy, right?
<ggreer>
yay I'm famous!
<ggreer>
:)
<ggreer>
yes, I wrote most of ag
<ddfreyne>
Can anyone point me to some interesting Trello boards?
<ddfreyne>
(So I can steal their workflow)
<judofyr>
ggreer: (sorry, I believe I've asked you that before, but I haven't still committed it to my memory yet)
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<ddfreyne>
I see RubyGems’ has different boards per kind of idea
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<ddfreyne>
I was thinking of having Ideas + Completed + Rejected at first… hmm. How does one handle workflow? Labels?
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<ggreer>
judofyr: heh, don't worry about it. people can only form meaningful relationships with around 150 people and can remember the names/info of maybe a couple thousand
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<judofyr>
ggreer: my biggest issue is connecting Twitter, IRC and GitHub nicknames
<ggreer>
I try to use ggreer everywhere
<judofyr>
I try to use judofyr everywhere for the same reason
<judofyr>
I'm an easy stalker target
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<judofyr>
anyway
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<judofyr>
sleep
<judofyr>
night
<judofyr>
Thread.sleep
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<spike|spiegel>
here comes a signal...
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<zzak>
Signal.trap("INT") { "good night sweet prince" }
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<spike|spiegel>
SIGSTOP takes care of everything :)
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<zzak>
doh
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