apeiros changed the topic of #ruby-lang to: Nick registration required to talk || Ruby 2.0.0-p195: http://ruby-lang.org (Ruby 1.9.3-p429) || Paste >3 lines of text on http://gist.github.com
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<andrewvos> Oops
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<slowhands> am I identified yet?
<slowhands> is that article just about the repository pattern?
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<whitequark> 19>> true if /a/
<eval-in> whitequark => /tmp/execpad-04b137874770/source-04b137874770:2: warning: regex literal in condition ... (https://eval.in/33653)
<whitequark> interesting
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<slowhands> anyone use BerkeleyDB?
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<erikh> not without crying
<whitequark> nested flip-flops
<whitequark> ugh
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<erikh> remind me what flip-flop is? I've seen it before but I can't ever remember it
<whitequark> perlism
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<whitequark> foo while bar..baz
<whitequark> basically a flip-flop is what a range literal becomes when it's used in a conditional context
<whitequark> it has a hidden variable inside
<erikh> oh, so two conditionals that end up resolving to an aggregate
<whitequark> you can say it so, I guess
<whitequark> it's a really obscure feature
<erikh> yeah, silly stuff.
<whitequark> and it seems that matz agreed to remove it from 3.0
<erikh> here's hoping they remove and clean up a lot of cruft.
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<whitequark> indeed
<whitequark> my hopes are kind of lost on ruby's though.
<erikh> kind of hoping mruby bucks the trend there
<whitequark> it's old (20 years duh), it was never designed (but was evolved), there's no process...
<whitequark> erikh: unlikely.
<erikh> well, mruby is not any of those things
<erikh> hence my optimism, but you're probably right
<whitequark> oh, it's all of three
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<whitequark> mruby is built according to ISO standard
<erikh> hm? it's from scratch
<erikh> oh, i see what you're saying
<whitequark> and ISO standard is written so that MRI will be compliant
<whitequark> it has *much* less cruft than MRI itself, mostly by leaving huge areas unspecified
<erikh> honestly, i'm more concerned about the internals
<whitequark> erikh: oh, internals are basically MRI but tidyed up
<erikh> which looked pretty good last time I checked.
<erikh> it's been a good 6mo though.
<whitequark> i.e. it is a very dumb VM and a really far descendant to emacs lisp VM
<whitequark> which is slightly less unwieldy than MRI.
<whitequark> mruby ~ little MRI.
<erikh> right.
<whitequark> we don't really need another MRI :)
<erikh> I'm ok with that -- I don't want to use ruby for performance applications.
<erikh> I want to use it for what it's good at -- simple applications and tooling.
<whitequark> mruby is applicable for neither
<whitequark> tooling? the IO, String, Encoding APIs are at the bare minimum, or even below
<erikh> well, I've been thinking about a process supervisor in go that uses it as a configuration language.
<erikh> and chef is pretty awesome
<erikh> it's erlang backed on the server side these days.
<whitequark> simple applications? well... no gems will really work on it, not even rubygems itself, plus there's no posix apis
<whitequark> (there was some work on the latter)
<erikh> that's ok by me for my needs
<whitequark> erikh: oh, a configuration language
<erikh> yep
<whitequark> try libconfig
<erikh> I was using lua last time I tried
<erikh> nah, I want real programmability
<erikh> but I can look, at least.
<whitequark> ah, turing-completeness
<whitequark> I'd take... lisp?
<whitequark> there ought to be an implementation of something really simple, idk, scheme, in go
<whitequark> ideal for your use case
<erikh> well, ops people these days are generally writing ruby
<whitequark> or you could just take one of literally dozens of tiny scheme implementations in C and bind it to go
<erikh> so it's a better target than scheme
<whitequark> mhmm
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<erikh> but I get what you're saying.
<whitequark> maybe
<whitequark> same here
<erikh> and ops people -- less than devs -- move languages very slowly
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<erikh> less spending all day in languages... doing other things too.
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<whitequark> noticed, yeah.
<whitequark> lisps are really simple, but I can see very well how this kind of simplicity may miss an ops guy
<erikh> the shift from python to ruby is still happening, really.
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<erikh> yeah, I mean, stick to what works and all that.
<whitequark> why did it start?
<erikh> ops people are generally context switching hard
<erikh> whitequark: chef and puppet mostly
<whitequark> python's used in a lot of scripts, for example... where bash is too obscure
<whitequark> and perl
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<erikh> perl gave way to python, by and large
<erikh> shell gave way to perl
<erikh> etc.
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<erikh> there are a few die-hard perl shops out there, but it's a very rare thing these days.
<whitequark> so... is it shell->perl->python->ruby?
<erikh> that's my stance
<erikh> obviously others may disagree
<whitequark> generally shifting to a single-language world?
<erikh> well yeah
<erikh> so, ops people spend most of their time learning new configuration syntax
<erikh> and sometimes they duck in and edit something some dev did
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<erikh> but most frequently, for consistency's sake they have a lingua franca
<erikh> and ops is much more homogenized than development is
<erikh> ops is very much about process and structure in a lot of places.
<erikh> devs can get away with more, is what i'm saying.
<erikh> this is why, regardless of the whole noops thing, there's a stark contrast between environments that have dedicated ops people and those who don't
* whitequark could never be an ops guy (or perform his duties)... not organized enough.
<erikh> anyhow sorry for the 20 kilotons of opinion
<whitequark> so, I respect them. :)
<erikh> dunno, it's kind of fun. things are a lot more varied, work wise
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<erikh> breaks up the day nicely, hard(er) to get rabbit holed on something.
<whitequark> though, it really seems to me more as a feature of mindset (i.e. innate), than as a learned skill.
<whitequark> hm
<erikh> yep, it's totally mindset.
<erikh> most good ops people can do dev work, and most good devs can do ops work.
<erikh> it's all about where your focus is
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<whitequark> sigh
<whitequark> I really hate ruby right now
<whitequark> >> def f; if /(?<foo>bar)/.=~('foobar') && p(foo); foo; end; end; f
<eval-in> whitequark => undefined local variable or method `foo' for main:Object (NameError) ... (https://eval.in/33654)
<whitequark> >> def f; if /(?<foo>bar)/ =~('foobar') && p(foo); foo; end; end; f
<eval-in> whitequark => "bar" ... (https://eval.in/33655)
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<whitequark> so... ugly...
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<zzak> hi
<whitequark> ohai
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<yorickpeterse> morning
<yorickpeterse> http://pixyland.org/peterpan/ here's some good reading material
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<yorickpeterse> I keep finding it interesting to see how dead IRC generally is during the weekends
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<Aria> Yeah. It used to be all night and weekend.
<Aria> Now it's used more professionally than not.
<Aria> how's that for a turnaround?
<yorickpeterse> damn you!
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<yxhuvud> I have notice the same effect at certain message boards, which get 10x the traffic during work days.
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<yorickpeterse> whitequark: ping
<yorickpeterse> hm nevermind, this appears to be a bug in my own code
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<yorickpeterse> did seem to've found another bug though
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<yorickpeterse> Oh no derp, that's a (begin) node wrapping everything for some reason
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<yorickpeterse> So tl;dr: I did not understand that #begin_pos is different than #column
<yorickpeterse> which is annoying if they return different values
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<ridders24> hi all, how can i detect a keypress such as space bar to stop the script from executing?
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<whitequark> yorickpeterse: (begin) node?
<whitequark> parser version?
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<yorickpeterse> whitequark: 2.0 beta5, and let me check if I can reproduce it outside of ruby-lint
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<yorickpeterse> whitequark: http://hastebin.com/gasidofako.rb
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<whitequark> well, what did you expect?
<yorickpeterse> I didn't expect the begin node there
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<whitequark> well, you have to group the two top-level statements somehow
<whitequark> begin serves exactly that purpose
<yorickpeterse> hmm, good point
<yorickpeterse> also
<yorickpeterse> I'm so getting that
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<whitequark> yorickpeterse: comment on this? https://github.com/whitequark/parser/issues/71
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<yorickpeterse> haven't experienced it myself yet
<yorickpeterse> also not sure if I'd want either (nil) or nil
<yorickpeterse> the latter would make it easier to check if something is there though
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<whitequark> yeah, not sure either
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<whitequark> the (nil) or nil can appear in these cases:
<whitequark> 1. a body where there is nothing inside. `class Foo; end` ← (nil)
<whitequark> 2. empty grouping expression (sometimes). `begin end`, `()` ← (nil)
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<whitequark> 3. well, nil. `nil` ← (nil)
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<whitequark> 4. nonexistent branch of conditional. `if true; end` ← (if (true) (nil) nil); second nil.
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<yorickpeterse> I'd say in case of 4) `nil` makes more sense than `(nil)`
<whitequark> in particular, cases 2 and 3 will have source maps, whereas cases 1 and 4 won't.
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<whitequark> yorickpeterse: don't think so.
<yorickpeterse> well, compare this:
<whitequark> `if true; end` is not semantically different from `if true; else; end`
<yorickpeterse> `if if_node.else; ...; end` vs `if if_node.else.type != :nil; ...; end` (pseudo code)
<yorickpeterse> this makes more sense for method calls:
<yorickpeterse> receiver, name = node; if receiver; ...; end
<yorickpeterse> opposed to `if receiver.type != :nil; ...; end`
<whitequark> hmm
<whitequark> makes sense. and I never liked the (nil) without source maps, i.e. synthesized nil.
<whitequark> what about removing the (nil) appearing from an empty compound statement whatsoever?
<whitequark> if there is no text, there are no nodes.
<whitequark> and the `()` or `begin end` will be translated to (begin), or (begin nil)... not sure which is better.
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<whitequark> since it didn't have any source maps to begin with, I won't be losing any additional info.
<whitequark> thoughts?
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<yorickpeterse> I'm fine with that
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<whitequark> ugh. this is so bad
<whitequark> I *cannot* implement post-condition until/while without either
<whitequark> a) losing my sanity
<whitequark> b) turning the code to a complete mess
<whitequark> c) exposing implementation details to consumers.
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<yorickpeterse> how about option d) buy some beer, approach Balmer peak, profit
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<whitequark> this error makes completely no sense
<whitequark> >> 1.times { p(if true; break; end) }
<eval-in> whitequark => /tmp/execpad-fda1929a2a29/source-fda1929a2a29:2: void value expression ... (https://eval.in/33705)
<whitequark> >> 1.times { p(if true; break; 1; end) }
<eval-in> whitequark => nil (https://eval.in/33706)
<whitequark> 18>> 1.times { p(if true; break; end) }
<eval-in> whitequark => /tmp/execpad-9652f775c1e4/source-9652f775c1e4:2: void value expression ... (https://eval.in/33707)
* whitequark shrugs
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<yorickpeterse> meanwhile Github seems to be ninja-ing stylesheet changes into their website
<yorickpeterse> I wish GH had some extra colours in it, this gray-ish layout is so boring
<whitequark> true neutral
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<whitequark> lemme check what ruby_parser does with the post-while...
<whitequark> oh right, c). randomly inserted (begin) nodes around which are semantically equivalent to (block)
<whitequark> yet aren't removed.
<whitequark> ugh.
<whitequark> oh they are also sometimes removed.
<yorickpeterse> gem install headache
<yorickpeterse> heh, it's not actually there yet
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