<kentonv>
asheesh, I just noticed the main sandcats.io domain has a Startcom certificate which is now invalid because Startcom was de-trusted by browsers. But I guess node.js still trusts it? But we should update that cert...
<TimMc>
oops :-)
<TimMc>
(my Jabber host still uses Startcom, and probably will for the foreseeable future, unfortunately)
<guido>
kentonv: you will not able to renew it but the cert should be valid until it expires
<kentonv>
guido, my chrome seems to be reject it.
<kentonv>
I guess it could be that Debian rejects it...
<kentonv>
still works on my phone.
<kentonv>
maybe Debian ripped the startcom certificate out entirely?
<kentonv>
actually, maybe *I* marked it de-trusted and forgot. That seems like something I'd do.
<guido>
no idea :), but browsers decided to not remove but not trust any new signed cert from a X date
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<guido>
startcom will need to be reaudited, and cannot deliver new certs. no idea if they will survive that
<kentonv>
as I understand it, startcom no longer exists
<kentonv>
bought by wosign
<guido>
they still exist, as a subcompany i guess. i don't understand those deals, but they still are the ones managing startssl, not wosign, but that whole thing is shady
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<TimMc>
Still works for me; chrome 55 and firefox esr 45.7.0
<kentonv>
fwiw this only affects the main sandcats.io domain -- not any of the subdomains. Generally no one ever visits the top domain.
<ill_logic_>
Loosk like I'll definitely want the Dav thing before too long for my project. I can only get to about a gig on http file upload before it falls over.
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<TimMc>
kentonv: Sorry to hear the business didn't work out.
<kentonv>
well, maybe it will work out again someday, after Sandstorm gains more steam as an open source project?
<TimMc>
*nod*
<kentonv>
specifically if/when we implement paid apps... I think there's a business there that doesn't require keeping anything in the platform closed, which I like.
<Lord>
what about sandstorm's employees ?
<kentonv>
we all have new jobs lined up
<kentonv>
which we'll talk about publicly soon-ish
<TimMc>
I don't want an Oasis account, but I'd probably subscribe to your Patreon.
<TimMc>
(err, if you had one, I mean)
<kentonv>
TimMc: what's the difference, from your point of view?
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<TimMc>
It feels a bit odd to pay for a *service* I don't use -- Patreon makes it more explicit that I'm really just paying for someone to keep being awesome.
<TimMc>
More importantly, I can choose my level -- I can't give you $1-2/month with Oasis.
<ocdtr_web>
And my current issue is I still have too much banked credit to donate via Oasis subscription. :P
<kentonv>
ocdtr_web, I can remove your credit if you want me to. :P
<kentonv>
that said, to be fully transparent: I'm about to make a lot of money at my new job. >_>
<TimMc>
heh
<kentonv>
(which will be nice after four years of minimal income)
<ocdtr_web>
I actually don't remember having so much in here.
<ocdtr_web>
It says I have over $500 in credit, and I thought i had like... half that.
<kentonv>
ocdtr_web: You probably have credit from Indiegogo and credit from being an app developer.
<ocdtr_web>
I mean like, I thought I had less like even a month or two ago.
<Lord>
i may be completely wrong but i think that sandstorm's target isn't a company or else but tiny self hosted boxes for individuals
<ocdtr_web>
I guess it might be worth noting with your transparency notice, that in the short term a better way to donate might be to lavish dollars on people who decide to write apps for Sandstorm.
<ocdtr_web>
Lord: It works pretty well in both cases. Though it is probably moreso appealing to self-hosting because most of the alternatives for it aren't free or self-hostable.
<ocdtr_web>
Whereas to a business, you may hit 50/50 people who consider self-hosting a burden or a benefit. And most businesses are happy to pay for a product that works well and "free and open source" is often not a key selling point.
<kentonv>
I think there's more demand among businesses (despite our failure to unlock that demand). When it comes to consumers, the only people interested in running their own servers are techies who understand what a "server" is, and even among them it's a fairly small minority.
<kentonv>
to make Sandstorm popular among consumers, we need apps that attract them
<kentonv>
eventually we'd have that: building apps on Sandstorm is so much easier than building traditional cloud apps. So eventually we should expect more and better apps on Sandstorm.
<kentonv>
in the shorter term, though, it's easier to target businesses who have actual policy or regulatory requirements forcing them to self-host
<kentonv>
which there are a lot of!
<kentonv>
and yes, businesses are way more willing to pay money... :)
<kentonv>
but now that we aren't looking for money anymore, we'll just build the features that we, as techies, wanted.
<kentonv>
so probably we'll be catering more towards individuals
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<ragesoss>
Sorry to hear that the biz dev efforts didn't work out!
<kentonv>
it's OK, I am finally able to sleep at night. :P
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<asheesh>
kentonv->sleep++;
<asheesh>
Thanks for writing that blog post, kentonv, and for linking it here and discussing.
<ocdtr_web>
Everyone on the Sandstorm team deserves a digital hug and should know that if they visit Chicago, I will buy them food and/or alcohol as a thank you.
<ragesoss>
Good! Sandstorm has been great to me as a self-hoster. Just works, and has done so since I first set it up with zero maintenance. I hope another opportunity to make a living developing it presents itself eventually.
<asheesh>
Aw :) yay ocdtr_web
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<mokomull>
asheesh: kentonv: I hope I'll still see y'all around at meetups and such. The community is what brought me into #sandstorm in the first place ;-)
<kentonv>
yeah I think we'll start doing more meetups again.
<kentonv>
we kind of stopped meetups for a while while we were trying to focus on B2B sales
<mokomull>
*nod* even if it's something less formal like showing up at Tied House every once in a while, I'm down.
<kentonv>
I'm thinking our new employer would likely be willing to host. They are bing Cap'n Proto users, so we'd make it a Sandstorm / Cap'n Proto combined thing, I think.
<kentonv>
but haven't actually talked to them about that yet so we'll see
<asheesh>
Oh man I'd love that.
<kentonv>
s/bing/big
<kentonv>
we are *not* working for Bing. :P
<asheesh>
Typo or info leak!!!?!! You decide.
<ocdtr_web>
lol
<asheesh>
I, for one, would like to see a "Sandstorm The Business Winding Down" party. We could spin it in a nicer way.
<asheesh>
"Sandstorm Community 4eva Party"
<asheesh>
etc.
<ocdtr_web>
I'd be tempted to try to fly out for something like that and say hi to everyone.
<asheesh>
Aw yay :)
<ocdtr_web>
Though I can't short-notice that kind of stuff.
<ocdtr_web>
Partly because I have work, and partly because pets are like children.
<asheesh>
I think that we're not going to do it like tomorrow anyway. What kind of notice would you need? 2-4 weeks enough?
<ocdtr_web>
At the tail end of that range I could probably do.
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<ocdtr_web>
I think American Airlines has a new cheaper sardine can flight option where you can't even use an overhead bin.
<kentonv>
ocdtr_web, if you come out here on a Saturday, I'll throw a LAN party for you.
<ocdtr_web>
Is it really a LAN party when Overwatch doesn't run across a local network? :P
<kentonv>
the important thing is the location of the people, not the game server. :)
<ocdtr_web>
That is fair. If this was somewhere around a weekend, it'd definitely be easier to schedule.
<ocdtr_web>
But it's not like I don't waste vacation days because I never go anywhere.
<ocdtr_web>
I have actually never been to a legit LAN party.
<ocdtr_web>
When my brother's computer was at my house, and a friend brought a laptop, we had like... four people on a game in the place. And that was like... half a LAN party.
<ocdtr_web>
The blog post is now on the front page. My comment somehow has gotten a downvote.
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<kentonv>
ocdtr_web, I am also confused why someone would downvote you
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<ocdtr_web>
HN has strange ways.
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<kentonv>
I guess it's to be expected that this story would bring out the haters. :/
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<jadewang>
hi
<jadewang>
Yeah, I just thought I'd drop a note here about the haters
<jadewang>
figured friends of Sandstorm can help correct the record on HN
<kentonv>
Well, I'm going through and responding calmly to tell people about how we plan to solve the problems they raise.
<mokomull>
ocdtr_web: I don't think they've started flights with that ticket yet, but {ORD,MDW} → {SFO,SJC} is a pretty competitive route.
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<ocdtr_web>
I have to choose my record corrections on HN carefully, as I am permanently rate limited.
<ocdtr_web>
I get like five comments and then I have to be silent for an hour or two.
<kentonv>
wat
<ocdtr_web>
A couple times they undid it when I asked them to, but after they put me back on it like a week after they removed it, I figured they probably weren't going to remove it again.
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<ocdtr_web>
After roughly five comments in the span of an hour or two I get the message that I'm "submitting too fast" for a while.
<kentonv>
lame. :/
<ocdtr_web>
It's kinda like a shadowban, because I have no way of knowing where I am in being able to submit or not.
<ocdtr_web>
And the message just says I'm submitting too fast, but obviously other users can submit faster.
<ocdtr_web>
It is what happens when you upset some high karma Googlers by doing things like... pointing out they're not disclosing their employer when commenting about how great Google products are.
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
So, was Solutions a last-ditch effort to keep the company afloat? What will happen to Sandcats SSL and Domains?
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
It'll be fun messing around with Blackrock tho
<ocdtr_web>
HeyItsMeUrIRC: Sandcats will remain online.
<ocdtr_web>
As will Oasis and the app market and such.
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
Also, what will happen once the certs and domains expire?
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
Who will be buying the new ones?
<ocdtr_web>
AFAIK, everything regarding certs and domains is expected to continue. Kenton will continue operating all of the things.
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
Okay, thanks.
<ocdtr_web>
Sandstorm.io is joining the short, but recently growing list of startups that "fail" with not a lot of bad news for existing users. =)
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
shame there's no meetup for us CO folk :(
<ocdtr_web>
Someday I think there will be enough for a group up here in Chicago, I know there's a few people who use it up here.
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
I feel like my friends and I are alone in Denver
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
tfw you miss the undo button on gmail by half a second
<ocdtr_web>
Heh, I never used that when I was on Gmail.
<ocdtr_web>
Do you find you use it a lot?
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<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
ep
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
yep
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
I actually just sent an email to community@sandstorm.io :P
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
forgot to add something
<chilts>
kentonv: glad to hear you all have jobs ... I'm sure you can't say where yet, but are you all now at the same place? That would be cool if you are. :)
<chilts>
(not Bing) :D
<chilts>
heh
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
inb4 google
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<kentonv>
at least four team members, including Jade and myself, are going to the same place. Some are still deciding or decided they liked other offers better.
<chilts>
cool, well, best wishes to you all
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
great to hear
<ocdtr_web>
FWIW, I use Bing and it's decent. I think it gets an undeserved bad rap. Google steals a lot of Bing features, and then Google gets all the good press for it.
<kentonv>
it's not super-secret but I hesitate to say in a public forum before we actually post a blog post about it.
<neynah>
Thank you :)
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
~~it'd be a shame to lose that awesome house :P~~
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
damnit
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
I'm too used too Discord
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<ocdtr_web>
I only now have Discord because I was kinda forced to. I loathe having yet another walled garden chat app.
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
same
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
but it's do good
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
so
* ocdtr_web
conveys opinions about Bing and Discord and all sorts of things on a channel that is totally unrelated to those things.
<kentonv>
the new place uses Cap'n Proto a lot, so I'll likely be spending work time improving Cap'n Proto, and also working on some interesting new infrastructure...
<chilts>
thanks for the reply about those Go binding kentonv ... looks like I have more to read about and learn
<neynah>
Btw, I have a volunteer that's offered to design some app icons/graphics. Let me know personally if any of you need design help and I'll coordinate- I also currently have some free time too! Perhaps I should create wekan board (or something) for design requests for the future.
<jemc>
kentonv: > likely be spending work time improving Cap'n Proto
<jemc>
very cool!
<jemc>
I'll definitely keep an eye out for progress on some of the longer term roadmap items!
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
I think that the big thing that a lot of people forget about is the importance of open-source design.
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<kentonv>
HeyItsMeUrIRC, I think the problem is that open source projects are often driven by individual hackers working solo who know how to code but have no design sense -- like me! And then they don't know how to get a designer on board to help. So they wing it and fail.
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
yep
<kentonv>
so it's great that we have neynah and friends to help!
<jemc>
I'm particularly interested in matching features in my pony-capnp port as the C++ reference implementation progresses past "Level 1" RPC
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
Sandstorm's UX and UI def need some work
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
I had to spend like 10 minutes teaching my friends what a grain is
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<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
but they picked up the top bar on their own (aside from asking about the debug log and webkeys)
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<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
HOLY
<kentonv>
yeah, new terminology is annoying, but we're not sure how to avoid it. We've tried a lot of things, e.g. calling them "files" or "documents" but nothing seems right.
<neynah>
I think a lot of designers don't know of the existence of all these open source projects that need design help. Visibility is a problem but there are also some barriers to contributing as well.
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<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
but I just forked contact otter and I'm going to do some work on the UI
<TimMc>
kentonv: "instance" makes sense to me... but probably only because I'm a programmer :-P
<TimMc>
so tempting
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
Files seems like the best way to go
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
not to broad, not to vague
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<neynah>
TimMc: We've discussed that option as well. Would be interesting to test different terms and see what makes the most sense.
<kentonv>
yeah, "instance" is too technical. And "file" is widely understood to mean "byte blob"...
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
I could probably get a good test going
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
it'd just take too much time and be socially awkward
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<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
"Here, Coleman, sit down and try to operate this well I record your face plus what you're doing and e-mail it to a group of people I don't know IRL"
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<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
jesus
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
what's happening
<kentonv>
IRC net split; it's normal
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
← HeyItsMeUrIRC has quit (*.net *.split)
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
→ HeyItsMeUrIRC has joined
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
for the swarm
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<kentonv>
experiments are great for refining things, though I think Sandstorm still needs a lot of creating (of missing features and components) before we focus too much time on refining details.
<ocdtrekkie>
neynah: On the mailing list we've discussed the idea of a place to post stuff you want with a bounty or such a couple of times. I think it'd be sensible for such a place to have a place for graphics requests, app ports, app features, Sandstorm features, etc. Even if they were done for free.
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
so sandstorm solutions but it's not so formal
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<kentonv>
that said I may just be burned out on experiments and tests as we were pushing really hard on that towards the end, and honestly I find it sort of un-fun... :/
<ocdtrekkie>
The biggest challenge I have is like, I have a Wekan of apps people are working on. But I have no way to regularly help people find it.
<ocdtrekkie>
Because mailing lists and IRC are both mediums that do not cater well to persistently useful content.
<neynah>
kentonv: I thought the experiments were really exciting! :D
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
question: what do you think are good cheap wildcard certs?
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
I'm 14/poor so I can't pay all that much
<kentonv>
neynah: in that case you should keep doing them! :D
<neynah>
HeyItsMeUrIRC: Yeah the Sandstorm UI & UX needs so much work. I think I'll put together a list of things we should improve & make that public somewhere. As for user testing I've done a lot of them for Sandstorm and I could definitely share the script and walk you through how to test without it being awkward. :)
<kentonv>
neynah: You could add a section to the CONTRIBUTING.md doc I put together in the Sandstorm repo
<neynah>
ocdtrekkie: That makes sense. I'll take a look at those discussions.
<kentonv>
HeyItsMeUrIRC: We have a special deal on Sandcats certs from Globalsign, which we buy in bulk. Not transferable, sorry.
<ocdtrekkie>
I really like the existing UI. I always worry attempts to match what people say are modern today will bloat the UI.
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
I agree
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
but it's a bit *too* stark
<ocdtrekkie>
It took me a (short) while to accept the existence of the sidebar as a second infringement upon the browser window.
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
things should be dumbed down
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
I like the sidebar
<neynah>
kentonv: I think I will do that! Going to make some quick copy improvements to /community first though.
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
I wish I could make it auto-hide though
<kentonv>
for the record, the ugly black topbar is 100% my fault, not neynah's. :)
<ocdtrekkie>
It has grown on me. But when I started using Sandstorm there was only the top bar. :D
<kentonv>
the sidebar was supposed to function like Slack's sidebar
<kentonv>
it's not quite there
<kentonv>
but I think it can get there
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
We need an option to change the edge it's on and be able to set it to auto-hide
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<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
Sandstorm's incredibly easy to use after a few hours
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
the problem is that it's intimidating to a new user
<efishta>
Hi all. Is it proper etiquette to jump right in with a question?
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
go right ahead
<kentonv>
efishta, sure!
<shachaf>
i,i it's what you did, anyway
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
but Snadstorm def looks like something made by power users for power users
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
not for lusers
<ocdtrekkie>
HeyItsMeUrIRC: My standing view is that it's drastically more important to cater to people using something after a few hours than for new users.
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
Sandstorm
<ocdtrekkie>
Because new users are only new users for a few hours. ;)
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
yes
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
but it kills the adoption rate
<kentonv>
ideally it'd be good for both
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
it looks clunky at first
<ocdtrekkie>
I know, but adoption rate isn't everything, especially once it does become a vital part of life.
<HeyItsMeUrIRC>
maybe an interactive guide and a help button
<ocdtrekkie>
Excel looks daunting the first time you use it.
<ocdtrekkie>
But everyone learns Excel.
<efishta>
Set-up HAProxy in pfSense last night with SSL passthrough to a couple of severs. Working well. I am now trying to add Sandstorm behind HAProxy to passthrough all HTTPS to the Sandstorm nginx instance, and here is where it's failing.
<efishta>
Internally, mapping the domain statically to internal lan IP works well enough to test things out. For some reason it refuses to communicate with HAProxy in the simplest way I could configure it, without SSL Termination
<kentonv>
efishta, I'm afraid I haven't used HAProxy and I'm not sure I understand your exact situation, but maybe with some more details I can help...
<efishta>
sure - haproxy is essentially an alternative to nginx. Instead of using nginx ---> sandstorm (which also runs nginx internally) as a reverse proxy in order to resolve multiple domains to the same IP., I"m using HAProxy as my main reverse proxy, and it's passing through SSL connections via SNI to the different servers corresponding to these differen
<efishta>
t domains I'm hosting.
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<efishta>
I guess I'm puzzled because from what I've read it should be seamless
<efishta>
since it's only passing through the packets, I expected it to "just work"... seems there's something missing in some config somewhere.
<kentonv>
what kind of error are you seeing?
<efishta>
it works internally via static mapping to myhost.sandcat.io, I can get the authentication token working etc... (although it does fail at the OAuth step, probably because of this problem)
<efishta>
there doesn't seem to be any communication between my haproxy reverse proxy and sandstorm