00:50 <lkcl> oliv3r: also, you should read this: http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/2013-December/009587.html

00:51 <lkcl> oliv3r: you kept asking and asking and asking why nobody from the mainstream free software community will help you as long as the sunxi list is running off of proprietary software services - phil explains why

00:52 <lkcl> oliv3r: also, once we have units being sold and profits coming in, i'm very sorry but i cannot put any of that money towards the sunxi community as long as it is running on proprietary software services.

00:54 <lkcl> oliv3r: all you have to do is move to a software (libre) mailing list and use a software (libre) hosted git repository for the main sunxi repository - both services can and will be provided by any number of highly experienced prominent members of the mainstream free software community if you would like to use them

00:55 <lkcl> oliv3r: there is also nobody going to tell you what you *personally* can use. there's also nobody going to ORDER you to use alternative (libre) services

00:56 <lkcl> it's just that by not doing so you're cutting yourself off from help, finance, resources and a wider community.

01:14 <rz2k> lkcl: both your demands need commercial investments for 24/7 work, by these investments I mean time, money and nerves to setup everything and move everybody there.

01:14 <rz2k> any money means control

01:14 <rz2k> sunxi will be better hosted on proprietary bullshit services than have couple guys decide everything.

01:33 <rz2k> and you seem to forget that we already have: opensource video decoding, already usable mainline kernel with c-a7 hyp support (still no multimedia stuff), opensource x.org driver with xvideo support and many other nice things.

01:34 <rz2k> you cant find any native linux platform that has this level of support and 'openness' right now because omap is dead, freescale is tied to Vivante/Coda and everything else is not usable.

01:35 <lkcl> rz2k: there are no demands. please be absolutely clear about that.

01:35 <lkcl> rz2k: let me repeat the sentence that you've not read

01:35 <lkcl> rz2k: <lkcl> it's just that by not doing so you're cutting yourself off from help, finance, resources and a wider community.

01:35 <lkcl> rz2k: is that clear?

01:35 <lkcl> rz2k: is that absolutely clear?

01:36 <lkcl> rz2k: if it is not clear that i have not made any "demands", please tell me.

01:36 <rz2k> :)

01:36 <lkcl> yeh? :)

01:37 <lkcl> it doesn't matter how good what's there is: if none of the mainstream gnu/linux distros will work with the sunxi community it's not going to reach people, is it?

01:38 <lkcl> if the communications lines between say the debian community and the sunxi community are shot to shit because the sunxi community forces the debian community to use google groups, guess what's not going to happen?

01:38 <lkcl> there's not going to be any community interaction.

01:38 <lkcl> and so on.

01:39 <lkcl> this isn't bullshit

01:39 <lkcl> and the people who *have* these principles and understand privacy will go *out of their way* to offer (at zero monetary charge) their free (and libre) services.

01:39 <lkcl> there will be no need to pay them any money.

01:46 <rz2k> first, 'distro support' is the thing you should not prioritize in embedded world. why? because there are no standards around here and we cant make everyone happy. fedora guys already doing sunxi for two or three releases, if you didnt know, as well as archlinux. second, distro support gets outdated really fast, I bet debian guys will not keep up with sunxi updates.

01:46 <rz2k> the thing you should prioritize is support for actual software versions around the mainstream distros, the reason why we had sunxifb driver the firstplace, for example.

01:48 <rz2k> and no, I dont believe that if we will go to free software MLs/gits magic guys will appear out of nowhere and will work 10 hours a day with intend to fix everything that is broken right now and will do enduser bsp the right way.

01:50 <rz2k> and yes, enduser bsp is the only right way to make users happy ('press one button - generate image for sdcard'), everything else will fail horribly like when some guys distributed outdated as hell sunxi kernel with bugs in /dev/disp that were fixed three or four months ago.

01:51 <rz2k> you will also do the same thing if you will distribute allwinner code instead of sunxi commnuity kernel.

01:51 <rz2k> (for eoma68-a20 users)

01:58 <rz2k> yet this discussion seems a bit pointless to me, because you cant figure out that when guys from @arm.com send patches to linux-sunxi ML to gain support of hypervisor/kvm and pal from @broadcom.com asks if we would enjoy support of one new sdio wifi chip found in cubietruck in brcmn80211 kernel code - it should sign about something, right?

01:59 <rz2k> hope you can undestand that world doesnt spin around absolute fanatics who demand gpl everywhere and free software on the servers they use.

02:00 <buZz> 02:37:41 < lkcl> it doesn't matter how good what's there is: if none of the mainstream gnu/linux distros will work with the sunxi community it's not going to reach people

02:00 <buZz> hahahaha

02:00 <buZz> why would we want distro to work with community at all :D

02:00 <buZz> you need fedora stickers?

02:00 <rz2k> you already can have them

02:01 <rz2k> :p

02:01 <buZz> yeah no need for any system at all

02:01 <buZz> total nonsense

02:01 <buZz> as if linux development and usage only orginates from distros

02:01 <buZz> insane

02:01 <buZz> originates*

02:02 <rz2k> but yeah, lkcl has 'somewhat' valid point of 'probably to have a link from debian.org you should be open as f#', but yet 'who does need that' is another valid point of view.

02:04 <buZz> i dont see any value in having debian link to our wiki really

02:04 <buZz> unless you want 3000 noobs in channel asking what a FEX is

02:05 <ssvb> buZz: somebody has to be babysitting the end users, that's normally the job of the distro maintainers

02:06 <buZz> sure, but what is the value of developers of having end user exposure? more bug reports?

02:06 <rz2k> arm world is so unstable that you cant have babysiters educated enough about all possible problems.

02:06 <buZz> yeah

02:06 <buZz> i just see it as a handgrenade, you shouldnt buy one if you have no idea about using it

02:07 <rz2k> like the awesome 8250UART problem that allwinner code has

02:10 <rz2k> buZz: I think its just x86 standartized point of view where you have everything somewhat similar everywhere, atleast the bootorder, then you can have one distro for everybody, but atleast on sunxi you would need to generate images for each board because there is no board detection.

02:10 <rz2k> the only distro that has somewhat support for this is linaro

02:11 <rz2k> and as you may know, they are commercial organization.

13:27 <oliv3r> lkcl: just re remind you, we have dev@linux-sunxi.org that you tested as valid, and we have gitorous.org/linux-sunxi that we told you about. Ontop of that we have git.linux-sunxi.org

15:53 <lkcl> oliv3r: http://git.linux-sunxi.org/ - great! that's awesome!

15:53 <oliv3r> http and git:// afaik

15:54 <oliv3r> also gitorious

16:12 <lkcl> oliv3r: awesome. where's the page on linux-sunxi wiki with the contact / development details? i'll update it

16:12 <oliv3r> er, good question :)

16:13 <oliv3r> gimme an hour to sort through some updates and a reboot

16:13 <lkcl> http://linux-sunxi.org/sunxi:Community_portal this one i presume?

16:13 <lkcl> :)

16:23 <oliv3r> lkcl: http://linux-sunxi.org/Sending_patches#Git_repositories probably for now

16:23 <oliv3r> it says to send mails to dev@linux-sunxi.org allready (has since okt. 2012, so 1+ years)

17:08 <lkcl> oliv3r: remember, because you've been running a proprietary mail service that invades peoples' privacy i haven't had a place to ask questions. so i am only just beginning to catch up. i've made some improvements to the wiki so that information is more obvious to find. headings and titles on the main page for example.

17:09 <lkcl> oliv3r: i'm going to leave it at that for a while because my partner made a mistake in dealing with some fraud and mis-selling by butterflylabs, and i'm extremely angry.

17:10 <lkcl> you don't need that, so i'll be keeping a low profile for a day or so.

17:47 <ssvb> lkcl: what kind of privacy do you want to have on a *public* mailing list?

18:36 <oliv3r> lkcl: good luck with that~

20:15 <lkcl> ssvb: you should read this before passing judgement - http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/2013-December/009587.html

20:15 <lkcl> oliv3r: ^

20:17 <ssvb> lkcl: ok, a good point (assuming that it is true)

20:18 <lkcl> ssvb: there are a dozen others. and they are all "of course" completely irrelvant... *except* that a large proportion of the kinds of intelligent people that a) the sunxi community needs help from and to interact with b) make a point of researching these kinds of "points"

20:19 <lkcl> ... are going to *know* about these things, and are therefore not going to communicate with the linux-sunxi community, to everyone's detriment.

20:20 <lkcl> ssvb: another point - anyone from the debian world, if they look at a community that uses google groups, they're going to say - just like phil, who is a prominent member of the debian community - "wtf are these guys on? they cannot be serious. they cannot even host their own mailing list software, and cannot contact the people who can"

20:21 <lkcl> by that point the damage is done.

20:21 <lkcl> and they won't take you seriously.

23:36 <virgilio> hi friends

23:37 <virgilio> i use cubian ??????