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<bsm117532>
"If two blocks in an epoch have no partial order relationship, Conflux breaks ties deterministically with the unique ids of the two blocks."
<bsm117532>
Like hashgraph, this algorithm is not a work-order.
<bsm117532>
They insert an additional PRNG essentially that decides the order of nodes.
<bsm117532>
One can grind that PRNG for advantage.
<bsm117532>
FWIW their "total order" is NOT the natural total order on the graph (defined by graph cuts, what I called "cohorts")
<bsm117532>
IMHO One should NOT use topological sorting on a PoW chain, because it introduces a new, costless way to reverse transactions by rearranging the graph structure.
<bsm117532>
The "highest work subgraph" isn't that hard to compute...
<bsm117532>
people should use it.
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<bsm117532>
One point worth noting...a PoW DAG cannot achieve a block time faster than a ~few seconds. At block rates much faster than that, the natural total order never appears. (you never have a blockchain-like event where only one block appears which is everyone's ancestor or descendant)
<bsm117532>
So for block rates faster than that you have to invent a different double-spend solution, because work-order fails.
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<bsm117532>
This is why DAGs are only marginal as a scaling solution.
<bsm117532>
The better motivation for using a DAG is that they're asynchronous, where a blockchain is synchronous.
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<nsh>
bsm117532, can you explain how DAGs are asynchronous, or point to something that helps?
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<fluffypony>
has anyone written up the issues with Plasma? it's come up in convo recently, and the only things I can remember off the top of my head are SPV reorg proof issues -> honest minority assumption
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<Varunram>
fluffypony: there are some concerns about how complicated exit strategies are and how to simplify them. And then there's the standard stuff about evil miners
<Varunram>
there might be some more issues with plasma cash though
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<maaku>
bsm117532: you might like this. i did a back of the envelope calculation and merge-mined sharding with full validation of all shards but a maturity period for transfers (to keep them asynchronous) can raise throughput by about 100x
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<Chris_Stewart_5>
maaku: Is there any literature on this?
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<maaku>
Chris_Stewart_5: i don't know
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<bsm117532>
maaku: Yes it's basically 600s block time divided by the optimal block time for a braid/DAG ~few seconds -- so 100s or so, but this does not take into account throughput or validation time.
<bsm117532>
So I agree with 100x if you can validate a block in under a second.
<maaku>
wasn't tallking about braids. I'm not convinced any DAG structure can work in this way without extremely long maturity periods for joining
<bsm117532>
nsh: Only one miner can add a block to a blockchain -- hence, synchronous. Two (or more) miners can simultaneously add a block to a braid/DAG at the same time.
<bsm117532>
maaku: you'll have to explain the "sharding" part of your above statement.
<bsm117532>
Also "joining"
<bsm117532>
With the right sharding proposal, it can be much higher than 100x...
<maaku>
bsm117532: think sidechains, not braids/dags
<bsm117532>
please elaborate ;-)
<maaku>
sharding implies hard broundaries. moving between shards is an explicit operation, and requires proof-of-bury for the request to process on the receiving end
<bsm117532>
mmm no. I prefer sharding that operates more like RAID...it should be transparent.
<bsm117532>
I hate the idea of making transaction authors do so much work. A good system should be transparent to the user.
<maaku>
ok well i'm not really interested in discussing braids. just thought you'd iike that result
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<bsm117532>
I don't understand the result then...
<bsm117532>
And what's wrong with braids? :-P
<bsm117532>
FWIW Kadena's proposal is a DAG...because the merge-mining references other chains. I wouldn't be surprised at a 100x speedup, but it depends on the exact sharding mechanism.
<bsm117532>
Multiple cross-referenced merge-mined sidechains = DAG. You can approach it from gluing synchronous things together, or accepting your fate and making a DAG from the beginning.
<maaku>
bsm117532: not once anywhere that I have ever seen has anyone provided an actual proof that braids eliminates the failure modes it claims to fix
<bsm117532>
Which failure modes?
* bsm117532
is in writing-proofs mode.
<bsm117532>
I admit I've neglected this work for 2 years, sorry.
<maaku>
failure modes = highest payout by not cooperating in the expected way
<maaku>
in the same way that selfish mining is a failure mode of vanilla consensus
<maaku>
every description of braids I've ever read states something like "using a DAG will fix selfish mining" then has pages and pages of DAG charts... and never actually circles back around to selfish mining, cartel formation, or any other failure mode
<maaku>
there's literally zero public game theoretic analysis as far as i can tell
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<bsm117532>
gotcha. Will work on it. Thanks!
<bsm117532>
Proof that it breaks selfish mining is on my radar anyway, but the simple argument is that by removing the pay differential between main-chain and orphan blocks, there's zero incentive to selfish mine.
<bsm117532>
A withheld block would get exactly the same pay as a published block.
<bsm117532>
That argument is so simple as to not need a proof. But I'd been planning to do some simulations demonstrating it.
<bsm117532>
If you have ideas for a stronger proof, I'd be happy to hear them.
<bsm117532>
A hard proof that it returns to 51% from 34% is absolutely required.