wumpus changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
<americanpegasus>
WINTERS OVER JON SNOW.
<merlincorey>
YOU KNOW NOTHING
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<kanzure>
d/win 11
<kanzure>
ejiroqejoq whoops
<americanpegasus>
You gave me an idea. I'm gonna make an infographic comparing Thrones characters to Bitcoin types
<sipa>
#bitcoin please
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<nanasho>
hello
<nanasho>
someone is mining strange coinbase transactions
<sipa>
you're free to ask, but see the topic of this channel:
<sipa>
This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development
<nanasho>
i see
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<nanasho>
is there a good channel for bitcoin trading?
<maaku>
#bitcoin-pricetalk
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] #bitcoin-otc
<nanasho>
now we are talking
<nanasho>
thanks a bunch
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<nanasho>
ok i have a theoretical question. how long would it take for an address to empty if i post the privkey on #bitcoin-otc?
<sipa>
#bitcoin please
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<gwillen>
nanasho: this is a channel where people doing advanced / theoretical bitcoin research have discussions about that; please take other discussion elsewhere. You're welcome to hang out here and listen.
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<CodeShark>
Is there anything published out there specifically regarding incentivizing full nodes? Or is there any decent relevant research in this area?
<sipa>
i don't believe in incentivizing full nodes
<CodeShark>
well, let me back up...
<sipa>
only in making the barrier to running one lower
<gmaxwell>
there is this design for a sybil resistant system for incentiving particpation in the network, it's called "mining"; perhaps you've heard of it? :P
<CodeShark>
gmaxwell: except most full nodes don't mine and most miners don't validate
<gmaxwell>
But I agree, full nodes do not, generally, provide a "capacity" where we need more of them by count. (there are some corner cases, e.g. some kind of connection sybil resistance can be stronger with more nodes run by indifferent people)
<CodeShark>
I don't mean incentivizing full nodes in the sense of extraprotocol subsidies - I'm talking about the ability to offer other services besides mining that would presumably require running a full node
<CodeShark>
or the ability to make sure that miners are properly validating
<CodeShark>
or incentives for invalidation of bad blocks
<CodeShark>
or something along these lines
<sipa>
you can offer services to the network, such as relay, access to historical blocks, indexes over UTXO sets or transactions, ...
<CodeShark>
right
<sipa>
but none of those require running an independent full node
<sipa>
i can just run an indexer that is fed by blocks received from blockchain.info
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<CodeShark>
right - although the computational cost of running an indexer is probably comparable if not more to validating the entire blockchain
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<CodeShark>
so you could "cheat" by skipping validation, although it wouldn't really save you too much in costs
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<bramc>
Problem: A block needs to be reorganized and the edge cases are all very complicated. Solution: Obliterate everything in the block and queue it all up to be added again.
<bramc>
Probably a good idea to cache hashes in an ordinary hashtable so they don't have to get recalculated again
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<nsh>
bramc, what are the edge cases?
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<bramc>
nsh, Sometimes the arrangement of which blocks the inputs go into gets rearranged. Sometimes the inputs need to be put into a new child. Sometimes the block needs to be converted from a leaf format to an intermediary format
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<nsh>
ah
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<nsh>
except that was reduced-entropy in the nonce, so probably not applicable
<gmaxwell>
Nonces are special and even worse.
<ryan-c>
i was looking at rushwallet - if you choose to password protect it, you get a random seed, and then private key is sha256(seed||'!'||hex(sha256(password))), but to validate the password it leaks the first 40 bits of the private key in the thing you're supposed to store.
<gmaxwell>
Becuase you learn these reduced linear relations and can setup a lattice basis problem that gives you an efficiency basis to perform a search in.
<gmaxwell>
bleh why does it do that? thats stupid.
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<gmaxwell>
it could at least seperately hash it.
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<ryan-c>
yes, agree, stupid
<gmaxwell>
and then I don't know how to give you any speedup beyond the fact that the checkvalue check is going to be faster than the point,scalar multiply.
<phantomcircuit>
gmaxwell, heh that's like a 50x speed up in itself
<ryan-c>
1.1M/sec on my i7-2600
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<gmaxwell>
phantomcircuit: yea but the speedup from forgetting about the password and doing the rho attack is greater ... assuming the passwords are cryptographically strong. (which they probably aren't and so the fast test is the better avenue)
<gmaxwell>
('greater' -- its a million fold speedup)
<ryan-c>
(without bothering to vectorize it with simd)
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<zooko>
What are you looking at there, kanzure? We did some benchmarks on Novena recently.
<kanzure>
was trying to interpret libsecp256k1 benchmarking on novena against openssl but nobody had done that
<kanzure>
you seem like a somewhat good choice for someone to bother to do this!
<gmaxwell>
kanzure: there is a pull req against libsecp256k1 that doubles its speed on arm.
<gmaxwell>
IIRC without it, it's about 4x faster than openssl. There should be performance numbers someplace in bitcoin-wizards logs.
<gmaxwell>
For novena it would be interesting to use the fpga for signature validation.
<kanzure>
i was sourcing from -wizards logs yeah
<kanzure>
but thanks for explicit 4x faster statement, that is what i was fishing for
<gmaxwell>
thats a vague recollection. Both are pretty shockingly slow. Much worse than you'd expect from the clockrate when you're used to broadwell performance on x86_64. :)
<kanzure>
re: deterministic builds, openbsd package manager does some neat diff packing