wumpus changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<MRL-Relay>
[shen] so, in CT let's suppose you have a commitment C = C0 + C1 + C2 + ... + Cn (as an expression in base 2), are there different blinding factors for each Ci? (Otherwise it seems one could subtract off H from each C_i and narrow down possibilities to either a number or it's bit complement)
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<MRL-Relay>
[shen] ahh nevermind - it must be that way
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<MRL-Relay>
[shen] ahh I see, the sum of blinding factors adds to the total blinding factor (going over the range proofs for first time)
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<gmaxwell>
shen: right, the blinding factors are unique for each value.
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<gmaxwell>
gah die.
<gmaxwell>
lol
<gmaxwell>
very first sentences describes the cloud outsourcing application. :P
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<gmaxwell>
kanzure: transcript fix, Gentry's first name is Craig, not Greg. :)
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<gmaxwell>
I am reasonably convinced that if spherical cow SNARKS existed, e.g. prover cost only 10x straight execution, constant size proofs, and fast verifier... that still virtually no one would use it to outsource computation to the cloud.
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<gmaxwell>
Since losing your privacy to a cloud operator and depending on its timely response (after all, if you didn't care about speed you'd compute locally) already implies substantial trust. And if you are not sensitive to privacy and are worried that your cloud might twiddle your results you can send to 2 or 4 or however many seperate providers. ... and still be cheaper to operate than the spherical c
<gmaxwell>
ow snark with the 10x slowdown.
<maaku>
gmaxwell: but that wouldn't be buzzword compliant...
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<gmaxwell>
well I think some of this stems from microsoft research and the justifications people are giving for doing work there ("the cloud"), and perhaps it's harmless. but maybe it directs research in less useful directions, e.g. in that model the zero knowledgeness is basically irrelevant, it just falls out as a side effect of being super efficient.
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<amiller>
i agree, i think the applications they usually give for outsourcing are totally uncompelling
<amiller>
it's more interesting when there's some kind of clearer security need
<amiller>
i think the data structure ones are good
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<amiller>
like you want to use a secure navigation system on your phone, so you're going to ask some random provider for a shortest-path-from-A-to-B query,
<amiller>
and you get a query that's validated against some well known trusted source
<gmaxwell>
amiller: but if they want to give you a bad result they can just subsitute the database. I guess if the database is authenticated it's perhaps interesting... though why not just ask that source instead and skip the snark? :P
<amiller>
in general, when you ask google maps for the shortest paths, you don't know what factors go into the response.... they could be steering you past the most profitable billboards, and it only adds 10 seconds to your time
<amiller>
ok because that source probably doesn't want to have a big attack surface, and don't want to be in the business of maintaing a mirrored service
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<gmaxwell>
Yea. I agree that it's at least not completely uninteresting. It also probably wants zero knoweldge, the mapmaker might not want their map data being completely public.
<amiller>
the map source can be a lot of different things, like it could be the "most-voted-on map" or one signed by a big panel of celebrities
<amiller>
cartographer celebrities definitely
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<kanzure>
so none of the other videos look particularly worthy?
<amiller>
uh, and if you've already bought into blockchain + internet of things story, then when your closet asks your toaster to borrow some money, you don't want it have to reveal all the clothes you're storing
<amiller>
kanzure, elaine's talk on Hawk and Gyges?
<kanzure>
any of these? fast circuit garbling, secure ram computation, multi-party computation and oblivious ram, fully homomorphic encryption stuff, multilinear maps over integers, etc
<kanzure>
ah
<amiller>
click the "securing computation" playlist
<gmaxwell>
amiller: yea, as soon as you bring cryptocurrency into the picture all these things become insanely useful.
<gmaxwell>
though they're useful outside of that... I've had a surprisingly hard time making good arguments for them outside of the cryptocurrency space.
<amiller>
this one from is from an IBM research guy, it is not strictly cryptocurrency related but it is suggesting to use multiparty computation to conduct a stock exchange https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBmNbUyMaUg
<gmaxwell>
SMPC is more useful, I think, for non-cryptocurrency stuff. :)
<amiller>
those are all the ones from that day i think people here will like
<gmaxwell>
e.g. second price auctions that actually keep bids private is a big deal, bigger than people realize.
<gmaxwell>
sealed bid auctions leak a lot, and even the fear that they'll leak contributes to inefficiency.
<kanzure>
i have never understood how auction houses aren't completely regulated out of existence
<amiller>
yeah! i don't know what it would take to convince people of that
<amiller>
is there a game theory argument that makes that clear?
<kanzure>
well there's probably a big stick argument
<amiller>
ah i mean the "auctions should be more private" thing mostly
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<gmaxwell>
there are lots of papers by economymists... but sealed bid auctions are already used extensively in the US for government purchasing.
<maaku>
amiller: there's the extensive experimental record of actual auctions being manipulated
<maaku>
and, like, every HFT trick in the book
<gmaxwell>
But they are not second price auctions, and the reciever of the bids is (justifyably) not really all that trusted to not leak information about them.
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<amiller>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjUNj8ow6UE here is a potato quality video (transcript would be an improvement) of Eli Ben Sasson explaining the scipr-lab project at Princeton, it goes into some detail on tinyram (mostly at the end)
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<amiller>
i think maaku asked for something like that ^^
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<maaku>
thanks
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<Taek>
My file + 4 PRs, would appreciate feedback. None of the files are close to complete atm, but it's a start
<Taek>
jgarzik, kanzure ^
<bsm117532>
"Fee Sniping" should be its own wiki page. It's the way wikis generally work. Likewise the things you have in quotes in the Overview should be their own wiki pages. The Overview should say something very general about what transaction fees are.
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<bsm117532>
I know you're converting a bookmark list, essentially...but a wiki should be better organized. Hard as that might be :-/
<bsm117532>
And thanks for your efforts on this!
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<Taek>
The fee page will eventually be 3 or more pages. Cp4p and rbf should be separate too
<bsm117532>
Is there a good reason not to accept those PR's? Makes it easier to navigate...
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<Taek>
I will be accepting them later tonight
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<kanzure>
eh, could be worse
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<kanzure>
there are some zero knowledge proof protocols that use multiple provers
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<bbrittain>
gmaxwell: Coinbase was at my career fair and asked about as a user, how I would improve things. I told them hosting on amazon is unacceptable.
<bbrittain>
I don't think they will hire me. :P
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<gmaxwell>
lol
<kanzure>
bbrittain: selling them some synthetic dna?
<bbrittain>
kanzure++
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<bbrittain>
gmaxwell: they really didn't like that answer. like at all.
<bbrittain>
(it's ok. I don't really wanna work for them anyways)
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