wumpus changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<kanzure>
antgreen`: thanks
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<Taek>
gmaxwell: If creating a payment channel on the lightning network ends up being a significant expense, I think we will see heavy centralization of nodes on the live network. The most efficient construction (in terms of # of channels) is to have a single central node with a single 2 way channel to each spoke.
<Taek>
while that's a terrible setup for security, the trend has generally been to trust services that appear reliable (like bc.i)
<nsh>
.wik Naturalistic fallacy
<yoleaux>
"In philosophical ethics, the term "naturalistic fallacy" was introduced by British philosopher G. E. Moore in his 1903 book Principia Ethica. Moore argues it would be fallacious to explain that which is good reductively in terms of natural properties such as "pleasant" or "desirable"." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy
<GreenIsMyPepper>
it's difficult to be too centralized, since a hub and spoke structure would require a lot of money
<nsh>
because people tend to trust centralised services based on superficial assessments of reliability
<nsh>
that doesn't mean it is something to be favoured
<GreenIsMyPepper>
if the "hub" in a hub-and-spoke construction isn't contributing any money, money can't move since everyone's balance is maxed out
<GreenIsMyPepper>
but yeah some aspects are unresolved when it comes to the final composition, but i'm pushing for more decentralization in design?
<Taek>
GreenIsMyPepper: presumably the hub would be extracting fees, which would pay for the money that the hub has to lock down. As long as the fees are lower than the cost of creating more channels, it is economically preferred
<GreenIsMyPepper>
i think it'll bias towards effectively free, yeah, but I'm speculating here..
<GreenIsMyPepper>
but yeah i agree that it's definitely a risk to consider
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<rusty>
Taek: will be trying to push back with the reference implementation, but yes, is worrying.
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<kanzure>
Taek: there's a way to create new commitments without .. er. well, read the logs.
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<kanzure>
Taek: i was thinking more like ".botlogger, plz tag last few lines with the following tags: x y z"
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<kang_>
This conf really reminded time and again that "we are doomed". No dearth of "requirements gathered"
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<kang_>
Hi, can anyone link me to that elements LN implementation in work, specifically channels?
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<nsh>
guess which cryptographical concept is going to save everyone from themselves and make software infallible and computer systems perfectly secure?
<yoleaux>
Near-Perfect Computer Security May Be Surprisingly Close | WIRED
<nsh>
(the research is >> article >> headline)
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<bsm117532>
How was Scaling Bitcoins? Any great revelations?
<bsm117532>
Everyone is probably traveling home right now ;-)
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<harding>
One of the things reportedly discussed at the conference was summarizing old -wizards logs. I'm willing to start working on that, posting results to the Wiki. Does anyone have suggestions for how to format it? E.g., should each page be a particular week with tags to the discussed topics, or should each page be a topic with tags to particular dates and participants, or something else?
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<jgarzik>
harding, coordinate with kanzure, who collected some stuff already
<jgarzik>
harding, probably best organized by topic then date?
<kanzure>
harding: these links were assembled from reading most of bitcointalk.org technical subforum, and all bitcoin-dev emails
<kanzure>
tags are a useful first step but dunno what step two is
<jgarzik>
ideally people should be able to browse ideas
<jgarzik>
so I would sort ideas into piles
<jgarzik>
the people behind the ideas are less important
<harding>
jgarzik: I only suggested tagging people because that's part of how I remember things: "jgarzik was talking about X a few weeks ago, so grep -r jgarzik.*X irclogs/"
<kanzure>
jgarzik: what type of piles?
<harding>
kanzure: looking at jotmuch now; having those bookmarks will be handy.
<kanzure>
harding: have you seen my meetlog project thingy? i tag everyone with what we talk about. it's a 5 MB yaml file on my computer...