wumpus changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
<harding>
kanzure: no, I don't think I'd ever visited your site for anything besides the archived papers until a few days ago.
<harding>
I assume it would be nice to have a wiki page for each subject that summarizes thinking and references the particular discussions. That would seem to be step two.
<kanzure>
harding: one of the thoughts today was "it is easier to hire technical writers than it is developers" so i said we can just poach all your buddies, hope that's okay
<harding>
kanzure: well, sure, because there's so few technical writers working on free software, you pretty much have to either poach from another business or inhouse train junior devs to be technical writers.
<kanzure>
oh.
<kanzure>
that is not good news
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<kanzure>
whoops just realized s/Skipper lab/SCIPR lab/
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<jbenet>
by the way, i think people in here would -- in general -- very much like what we're up to with IPFS. but i think it would be like "the web people" trying to tell "the hypertext people" about hypertext so i'm not particularly vocal here.
<kanzure>
well there's definitely concerns about the statements that filecoin has made in the past
<kanzure>
.... none of which i presently remember.
<jbenet>
**shrug** i'm happy to discuss it at length, but it requires a semantic alignment, which is close to impossible in an irc channel with 100+ people.
<kanzure>
(although i think a multiparty computation storage system might work if you throw away a blockchain; but i also happen to think that a less secure file storage solution- with legal contracts- would be a step up from the current situation anyway)
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<kanzure>
20:37 < petertodd> I *really* wish maidsafe/storj would just scale down their goals to something we know can actually be achieved, like a simple pay-for-data by hash network that doesn't make unrealistic promises
<kanzure>
heh
<Taek>
that's more or less what Sia is attempting to do
<jbenet>
hey Taek! catch up soon! am in NYC for some time now.
<gwillen>
jbenet: I'm pretty excited about ipfs, but you have seen me in your channe, so :-)
<gwillen>
channel*
<jbenet>
gwillen indeed :)
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<jbenet>
kanzure: i think that incentivized storage is much less important than a merkleized transport for the entire web, web of sites and web of data both.
<jbenet>
which is why we're working on things in this order.
<kanzure>
who sets the "entire web" merkle root..?
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<jbenet>
the hack is a virtual root. i dont think one root makes sense for an information system meant to span planets.
<kanzure>
or was this just the "each node includes some random other data, that they had previously pinned, in a random merkle root"
<jbenet>
(i.e. in this one case, i side with "git merge master" and not "git rebase master" as i usually would)
<kanzure>
about the planetary thing, blockchains are not good with interstellar latency unless you have extremely high block delays for multiple rounds of point-point communication and computation between the participants
<kanzure>
(yes i know ipfs does not use a chain anything)
<jbenet>
o/ merge. not rebase.
<kanzure>
(git rebase is almost definitively evil)
<jbenet>
no, it's extremely useful in branched dev, just people are afraid of git
<kanzure>
all development is branched, just some of the branch names conflict in the same namespace because people are bad at names; rebase is only non-evil if you are rebasing a branch that nobody has ever seen.
<kanzure>
if you rebase a branch that somebody has seen, you are shifting the ground form under their feet and it's somewhat rude
<kanzure>
*from
<kanzure>
anyway: still interested in the "include other random merkle branches in the tree for the virtual merkle root" question.
<jbenet>
(it's ok in practice with a team of people who are comfortable with rebase. it's really very useful. try it out with a team some day. not much to lose). re the other question, i dont think i follow you.
<kanzure>
if you pin locally but never transfer hashes then it's useless right?
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<jgarzik>
What is the popular term for on-top-of-main-chain protocols like counterparty and mastercoin?
<jgarzik>
sub-coin?
<bsm1175321>
I'm not aware of any common term. You should invent one. ;-)
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<maaku>
jgarzik: there's a not-nice but accurate 'parasictic consensus'
<bsm1175321>
maaku: such systems generally lack any form of consensus. Each counterparty/mastercoin/colored coin could be interpreting the OP_RETURN data differently, and no one would know.
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<maaku>
bsm1175321: the same is true of bitcoin
<maaku>
you could change the consensus rules of your own node and no one would know
<maaku>
(except you when you are eventually forked off)
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<gmaxwell>
jgarzik: petertodd calls them embedded consensus systems.
<bsm1175321>
maaku: The difference is that invalid counterparty/coloredcoin/mastercoin transactions DO get propagated, while with bitcoin they never get mined into blocks in the first place.
<bsm1175321>
"overlay protocols"
<maaku>
bsm1175321: in principle it's the same though, and trivially fixable. just have the parasitic consensus transactions commit to a prior ledger state from the view of your node
<maaku>
then it would be exactly the same
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<bsm1175321>
maaku: Indeed you're right. I've talked to a few of them about that, and AFAIK none of them are doing it.
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