wumpus changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
adam3us has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
Quanttek has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
Dr-G has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Dr-G has joined #bitcoin-wizards
fuc has quit []
Newyorkadam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
orik has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
orik has joined #bitcoin-wizards
orik has quit [Client Quit]
orik has joined #bitcoin-wizards
orik has quit [Client Quit]
damethos has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
damethos has quit [Client Quit]
orik has joined #bitcoin-wizards
orik has quit [Client Quit]
orik has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
dEBRUYNE__ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
Newyorkadam has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam]
Newyorkadam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
roconnor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bramc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Newyorkadam has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam]
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
antiatom-recon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
antiatom has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
hazirafel has quit [Quit: Leaving]
maraoz has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
psztorc has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
blackwraith has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
c-cex-yuriy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jinglebellz has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
Descriptioned has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jinglebellz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
nwilcox has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<nsh>
'You select a factoid that you would like us to certify. We check that factoid, create a record of it that you can refer to later, and issue you a cryptographically-signed certificate that attests to that factoid. We can optionally record the certificate on the Bitcoin blockchain. ' -- http://virtual-notary.org/
<nsh>
'The Virtual Notary hashes are 64 bytes long but the Bitcoin output scripts allow us to embed only 40 bytes per transaction and hence two transactions are made every 24 hours to embed all 64 bytes of the hash. The output scripts in the transaction corresponding to the value of 0.0001BTC has the Virtual Notary hash embedded. The first 24 bytes of the Virtual Notary hash are prefixed with 16 '0's in the first transaction and the remaining 40 bytes of the h
<nsh>
ash appear as part of the second transaction.'
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] Why didn't they just use a 32-byte hash
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] Well I mean it's aside the point now with an 80 byte standard
Descriptioned has left #bitcoin-wizards [#bitcoin-wizards]
<gmaxwell>
Incompetence?
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] :) It just seems so odd though
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] If you can figure out how to make a transaction with an OP_RETURN tagged output, you'd think they'd know about the existence of a 256-bit hash.
Ylbam has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
agorecki has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
sparetire_ has quit [Quit: sparetire_]
jinglebellz has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
nwilcox has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Yoghur114 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Emcy_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<bramc>
When in doubt, add another tool to your toolchain
* nsh
smiles
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bramc>
I'm working on a new puzzle and I had to do to make it was write a script for it, write a program to compile my script into regular openscad, and use two different drawing programs.
afk11 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
<nsh>
what kinda puzzle?
<bramc>
nsh, It's a mechanical take-apart puzzle, I invent these things. A few of them are in mass production.
<bramc>
This one looks like a cake so I got ambitious and wrote 'Happy Birthday' on the top of it (it's 3d printed, so it needed depth like icing)
<nsh>
oh, neat
<nsh>
when you said puzzle, i just assumed software
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<nsh>
software and brainache and human tragedy are basically semantically identical in my head at this stage
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
belcher has quit [Quit: Leaving]
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
maraoz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
roxtrongo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
maraoz has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
TheSeven has quit [Disconnected by services]
[7] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
tbmit has quit [Quit: tbmit]
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jtimon has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
MoALTz_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MoALTz has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
roxtrongo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
c-cex-yuriy has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
roxtrongo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
prom3th3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
shesek has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
shesek has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
roconnor has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
shesek has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
execut3 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
shesek has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
shesek has joined #bitcoin-wizards
execut3 has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
shesek has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
priidu has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Tenhi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
shesek has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
execut3 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
shesek has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
execut3 has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
execut3 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
execut3 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
orik has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
mjerr has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
matsjj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
orik has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
matsjj has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Tenhi_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
execut3 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mjerr has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
prom3th3us has quit [Quit: prom3th3us]
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<maaku>
tacotime: the bigger question is why they decided to put a hash in the chain at all
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
priidu has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Ylbam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards
priidu has joined #bitcoin-wizards
orik has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
mjerr has joined #bitcoin-wizards
matsjj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
matsjj has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
roxtrongo has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
MoALTz_ is now known as MoALTz
priidu has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Quanttek has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bramc has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
priidu has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<nsh>
maaku, because the blockchain is a de-fact timestamping public notary record?
<nsh>
*de-facto
<nsh>
with a known and calculable cost of history-editing
<nsh>
well, calculable modulo how much NSA mathematics is classified and beyond academia
JackH has joined #bitcoin-wizards
roxtrongo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
roxtrongo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
face_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adam3us has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
damethos has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
damethos has quit [Quit: Bye]
Ylbam has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
Quanttek has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
bedeho has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
Ylbam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nivah has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hdbuck has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tbmit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
face_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
mjerr has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
tbmit has quit [Quit: tbmit]
tbmit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
sparetire_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
paveljanik has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tbmit has quit [Quit: tbmit]
tbmit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tbmit has quit [Client Quit]
dEBRUYNE_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE__ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
Burrito has joined #bitcoin-wizards
psztorc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
belcher has joined #bitcoin-wizards
darshini has joined #bitcoin-wizards
darshini is now known as dtmit
afk11 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<prosodyC>
That hash question actually makes sense on a larger scale.
<nsh>
hmm?
<prosodyC>
Out of scope for now.
antiatom-recon has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<prosodyC>
I like clear text, so I've wondered about replacing hashes with basic tables.
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Descriptioned has joined #bitcoin-wizards
damethos has joined #bitcoin-wizards
JackH_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
JackH has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
roxtrongo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MoALTz_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Descriptioned has left #bitcoin-wizards [#bitcoin-wizards]
MoALTz has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
Descriptioned has joined #bitcoin-wizards
roxtrong_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dtmit has quit [Quit: dtmit]
roxtrongo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
<jgarzik>
cfields, FYI those posixutils Makefile changes should be automate-able. At least 80% fit a precise pattern
matsjj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
matsjj has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Giszmo has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
roxtrong_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
dEBRUYNE__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Descriptioned1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Descriptioned has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
Descriptioned1 has left #bitcoin-wizards [#bitcoin-wizards]
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
GAit has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
Descriptioned has joined #bitcoin-wizards
JackH has joined #bitcoin-wizards
JackH_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
Descriptioned has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
btcdrak has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
Descriptioned has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Descriptioned has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
Descriptioned has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bedeho has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<maaku>
nsh: point was for their application the hash needn't actually occupy bytes on the chain
<maaku>
the chain needs to commit to a hash, but they could do that without taking up any space at all
<maaku>
see: contracthashtool
<maaku>
(and, actually, their customers can do it entirely without them, but sssshhhhh...)
c0rw1n is now known as c0rw|mapping
ASTP001 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ASTP001 has quit [Client Quit]
priidu has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
priidu has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
bramc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Changing host]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Descriptioned has quit [Quit: pfff]
Yoghur114 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
roconnor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] maaku: er... is that contracthashtool just incrementing the private key/public key by the data to encode and then sending funds to that public key?
btcdrak has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dtmit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] in that case, why use p2sh?
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] it should be provable by the sender that they possess Q by spending, and they send their funds to Q+Q' where Q' is a (data)G, thereby committing to the data in the chain. then of course anyone can verify the data by looking at the original input pubkey and incrementing it by Q'.
<nsh>
maaku, i see
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] and you still need to occupy an extra chunk of bytes on the chain any way you look at it... it's just in the one case it's slightly less because it's encoded into the change.
<nsh>
'This tool allows you to take a redeemScript as a template and, using basic EC math, replace public keys with ones which are only spendable by the original key's private key holder and which cryptographically commit to the contract hash specified. In this way, it provides a transparent and undetectable way of sending payments which commit to some data without adding extra data to the chain. It does, however, require some small amount of out-of-band commu
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] if you want to make it private, you'd just use ECDH to exchange secret s with the recipient, then send funds to Q+Q'+sG
chris___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<nsh>
tacotime: that is essentially implemented in sidechains-alpha
kmels has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chris___ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] well, no need to do it on a sidechain, it works fine in bitcoin and is just a few loc
c0rw|mapping is now known as c0rw1n
blackwraith has joined #bitcoin-wizards
priidu has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
<maaku>
tacotime: but you can do commitments as parts of regular spends that would happen anyway
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] maaku: well, if you sent the commitment to the recipient so they knew the output was theirs and incremented their public key with it, or you did it as change.
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] it still requires an output on the chain to stick it into.
<maaku>
yes, but that output can serve some other purpose too
<maaku>
e.g. in elements alpha, the peg transfer itself commits to the destination address
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] ah, i see
<maaku>
tacotime: and if you don't have a need to send coins at the moment, you could batch things to be timestamped and then commit to a merkle tree of them the next time you do send coins
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] maaku: that's true, although it may be the case that they need to be timestamped immediately, in which case you'd probably have to outsource them to a service that's constantly sending transaction i suppose.
<gmaxwell>
It's not just "incremented" ... incremented isn't strong binding. In that you could claim it commited to Y when it really comitted to X by claiming a different original public key.
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] gmaxwell: using the input pubkey?
<gmaxwell>
what contracthashtool implements is private... committer provides a nonce. The whole thing is a commitment, you can't 'decode' without the original data in any case, so there is no point in using ECDH. just including a nonce in the commitment is fine.
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] i see
psztorc has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] and yes, you could always claim a different public key... but if your commitment is incrementing by the public key in the input there's no way to say that there was some other original public key. this is in the case where you make the commitment by sending funds to yourself.
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] this isn't the case if you're incrementing outputs to unknown recipients
dgenr8 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jinglebellz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Quanttek has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nwilcox has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<gmaxwell>
tacotime: no you don't have to be sending "to yourself", to replace the 'commitment', you just have to not be strongly bound to the basepoint.
<gmaxwell>
And that gratitious insecurity is trivally fixed.
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] sorry about the terminology.
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] i'll reread appendix a and play with the source code some.
GAit has joined #bitcoin-wizards
JackH has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hdbuck has quit [Quit: hdbuck]
dEBRUYNE__ is now known as dEBRUYNE
damethos has quit [Quit: Bye]
damethos has joined #bitcoin-wizards
psztorc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rusty2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rusty has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<nsh>
"that gratuitous insecurity is trivially fixed" will be the name of my next ambient works album