wumpus changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<CodeShark>
kanzure: it seems that paper isn't so much criticising the CAP theorem itself but rather issues with lack of precise terminology
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<phantomcircuit>
kanzure, yes there's a direct trade off between disaster resilience and write latency
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<wumpus>
yes there is qutie some scope for optmizing secp256k1 on ARM further, I was surprised that asm-optimizing one function had tht much impact
<wumpus>
quite*
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<Taek>
is there a common verb for when an oracle 'reveals' information?
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<gmaxwell>
Taek: reveal.
<gmaxwell>
:P
<gmaxwell>
bsm1175321: 09:43 < bsm1175321> Indeed. Well one can dis-incentivize centralization and use e.g. amiller's nonoutsourceable puzzles.
<Taek>
heh
<gmaxwell>
So, that kind of approach kills pooling but yet people are very happy to day with completely unauditable cloud mining (even though it could be audited).
<helo>
Taek: proselytize?
<gmaxwell>
So I think it's very likely that the response to non-outsourcable puzzles is just even worse centeralization in the form of cloud mining. :(
<bsm1175321>
My immediate target is to play with drastically increasing the block rate by converting the blockchain to a DAG.
<gmaxwell>
bsm1175321: it's kind of like the story with the traditional finance system: It is not trustless, so people responde to that not by forgoing dealing with banks, but instead by centeralizing banking.
<bsm1175321>
Smaller, more frequent rewards = solo mining.
<gmaxwell>
bsm1175321: Ah. Okay. That idea carried too (relative to propagation delays) far makes the mining process no longer progress free.
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] gmaxwell: Even in the most simple case, Spreadcoin (which is really kind of a hack), I don't think it worked out to any particular network advantage.
<bsm1175321>
Propagation delays shouldn't matter if I simultaneously get rid of orphans.
<amiller>
tacotime, what do you mean, did spreadcoin end up with just as much pools anyway?
<bsm1175321>
Not sure what you mean by "progress free"
<amiller>
i'm assuming some variation of GHOST works out and makes fast blocks OK, but i'm not that confident yet
<bsm1175321>
SpreadCoin: "To prevent pools each block must be signed with the private key which correspondents to the coinbase transaction"
<bsm1175321>
amiller: yes
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] amiller: Pooling is possible for it if you have bonded pools, I explained how to do it so that anyone could. But interest waned before someone bothered to implement it I think. But I mean, as to whether or not the network is any less concentrated in any centralized pattern, I think that is the issue.
<amiller>
tacotime, you mean interested waned in Spreadcoin altogether, before anyone implemented bonded pools?
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] Whether you have a warehouse mining on a pool or solo mining, you still hit centralization.
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] amiller: As far as I can tell, I haven't checked recently.
<amiller>
it's true that it's entirely possible people will just continue to trust cloud miners without auditing them, regardless of any mechanism we add.... but it's still a bit different - with larger "jackpot" blocks, which is part of my current nonoutsourceable proposal, it's a bit more tempting and destructive for cloud miners to steal
<amiller>
moreso than now
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] Ah, yeah Spreadcoin is stable in subsidy block to block.
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<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] If subsidy is unpredictive, the incentives will change and I guess the bond required becomes larger.
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<gmaxwell>
amiller: well we know already that huge amounts of money have gone into trusting cloud operations, and even ones that tried getting customers to audit them were unable to get the customers to care.
<gmaxwell>
:(
<amiller>
yeah... at best i think we can make it *somewhat* more tempting for them to steal, but the *extreme* level of blind trust now makes it hard to believe that would work
<amiller>
also: non-outsourceable puzzles can be composed with other approaches to asic resistance, like memory hard puzzles
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<bsm1175321>
I've also been thinking of adding mining to the p2p relay layer. Don't relay tx's unless they have a small PoW header. This would force all nodes to have mining hardware.
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<gmaxwell>
bsm1175321: you mean this would prevent nodes from bothering to relay at all and just leave miners with advertised ingress nodes that accept powless txn? :P
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<fluffypony>
gmaxwell: audit them how, out of interest?
<maaku>
fluffypony: "proof of reserve" is probably the search term you are looking for
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<fluffypony>
ah I thought we were talking about auditing their claimed mining power vs. actual
<amiller>
maaku, no, i he means for auditing 'cloud miners'
<bsm1175321>
gmaxwell: That's how it would start, yes. ;-)
<fluffypony>
yes
<amiller>
fluffypony, you could ask them to provide 'shares' showing what kind of blocks they were working on
<amiller>
if you're paying for however many hashes per second, you could ask for shares that show that's how much they're doing
<fluffypony>
amiller: sure, so then they show me a set of shares, N, and then you go ask them for an audit and they show you a set of shares, N...doesn't help unless you and I are talking:-P
<gmaxwell>
fluffypony: e.g. you can put hashes of user identifiers in shares so they are strongly bound.
<gmaxwell>
then I show you your shares, and the binding.
<gmaxwell>
And no talking is needed, unless you're concerned that the party might convince multiple users to use the same identifier.
<gmaxwell>
Even without non-duplication it shows that hashrate exists at all, which would actually have cut out a fair number of fradulent mining operations.
<fluffypony>
yeah
<fluffypony>
the lack of user-care is hard to combat
<gmaxwell>
Sort of a common cognative error. Basically to do business with someone at all you've already convinced yourself that they're above board. If you thought they weren't, you wouldn't touch them with a ten foot poll.
<gmaxwell>
Perhaps parallels with the public health problem of getting people to mitigate the risk of sexually transmitted disease. :)
<zooko>
Sounds like a great public health ad campaign in the works.
<zooko>
bsm117532: sounds awesome. Is it an In Real Life event?
<bsm1175321>
IRL, yes, if you're in New York.
<gmaxwell>
At a glance the TRR thing sounds like the transaction relay stuff we've been talking about for bitcoin core to discourage sybil attacks. I dunno why they wouldn't also run it over tor... except for china.
<gmaxwell>
Anyone know if there is an implementation?
<fluffypony>
zooko: that's the line I was pointing out :)
<gmaxwell>
I was talking to some ethereum people two weeks ago at a conference and suggested that perhaps a high latency tx announcement mixmaster like interface could reasonably be shared by multiple cryptocurrencies (in order to have an even better anonymity set)
<zooko>
fluffypony: aha. :-)
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<zooko>
gmaxwell: intriguing!
<zooko>
gmaxwell: but, for LN's purposes I would expect that they want low latency.
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<zooko>
I think it would be good to write these things down, like how much the LN design is going to prioritize low-latency.
<zooko>
I mean the LN+disclosure-control design.
<gmaxwell>
Yes, the LN use I consider steperate. "high latency" also has multiple relevant timescales... e.g. for transaction announcement latences of seconds are still quite high compared to tor.
<kanzure>
er, what latency does tor target?
<zooko>
gmaxwell: ok. I'm focusing on LN (and LN+Zcoin) now.
<wumpus>
tor targets a latency as low as possible given the specified number of hops and average latency between hops
<wumpus>
kanzure: agreed, a high-latency anonymity network would be great for cryptocurrency transaction relaying, there have been some proposals (even to have a high-latency relay as part of tor), but no implementations at the moment AFAIK. There are some practical issues such as spam control.
<wumpus>
(although those also exist for low-latency networks, for high-latency networks they are worse due to fire-and-forget...)
<bsm1175321>
But there's no lack of VM's out there...
<wumpus>
cliffordwolf is a genius, he wrote his own verilog compiler and synthesis tools for reverse-engineered FPGAs
<maaku>
a size-optimized implementation is good because that minimizes the consensus code overhead
<wumpus>
but there's a moxie implementation for FPGA too, that's not new
<maaku>
an argument for moxie was that it was implementable in a few thousand lines of C, but that appears to be the case with this picorv32 implementation as well
<maaku>
and risc-v is more likely to be supported long-term than moxie
<wumpus>
you could make a picomoxie implementation as well - it's usually a compromise between speed (eg pipelining) and circuit size
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<wumpus>
what is also important is the code size, we've managed to make some improvements in that for moxie (eg it was lacking 32x32->64 mult and some carry add logic, this helped a lot in secp256k1) - not sure how RiscV scores in that regard. But anyhow, for speed you'd end up with larger circuits/larger VM, especially if you'd want to hardware accelerate common tasks such as ECDSA verification
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<gmaxwell>
maaku: any idea what the instruction set size is, also what the regularity look like? I'd looked at some RISC-V before and there were a fair amount of corner cases that the emulator had to handle.
<fluffypony>
"ED: Dash is definitely a competitor to Bitcoin. With the Bitcoin project, Satoshi figured out Proof-of-Work and they all stopped working on the core protocol and all of the innovations then happened on the edges of the network. What we did with Dash is experiment with the core, and there's a lot of room for creativity"
<fluffypony>
sorry wrong window
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<wumpus>
/kick fluffypony ;)
<fluffypony>
wumpus: well I was quoting it for its hilarious BS value, so there's that :)
<Taek>
I believe I have written up a system that is an improvement to truthcoin
<Taek>
would anyone be willing to proofread it before I post to btt?
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] kanzure: I've never heard of a journal that requires you to do the formatting itself.. usually manuscript submission is separate and the journal itself does the formatting
<Taek>
thanks, pm sent
<wumpus>
my experience is different, all journals I've had to submit to have some kind of style guidelines, usually including a tex style that you have to use
<gmaxwell>
likewise.
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<gmaxwell>
(I mean likewise w/ wumpus)
<bsm1175321>
tacotime: it's the price we pay for open journals.
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<bsm1175321>
the billion-dollar journal industry is not worth their formatting services.
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] wumpus: Ah, okay. It's probably different for different fields. There were usually manuscript formatting requirements, and word limits.
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<bsm1175321>
Of course, there are no format requirements for the arXiv.
<MRL-Relay>
[tacotime] I've never submitted something to a mathematics/engineering journal, so perhaps that's it.
<bsm1175321>
From what I understand, journals have CS by the balls.
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<TD-Linux>
maaku, I tend to agree, I much prefer risc-v over moxie
<TD-Linux>
it scales up to big cores and is being implemented on hard silicon
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<gmaxwell>
TD-Linux: I think you are using a different defintion of VM target than I would use here.
<TD-Linux>
gmaxwell, do you mean as a target for a VM then?
<TD-Linux>
(err risc-v or moxie being a target rather than a bytecode)
<gmaxwell>
Good VM target in here means that a simple implementation is easy to formally verify-- which means things like an absense of exceptional cases, extensive modes with combinitoric complexity, and confining memory operations to a few setps. It might also mean that an implementation can result in a simple arithemetic circuit (e.g. tinyram). What I think you mean for VM target is more things like JIT
<gmaxwell>
ability?
<gmaxwell>
Seperately in here we're proably also interested in code density (or perhaps code density after compression). Though things like Bitcoin Script likely trounce any of these simple machines.
<TD-Linux>
yeah I guess I was thinking more about things like not having computed jumps
<TD-Linux>
you care about verifying that the vm is correct, not that the program operating in the vm is correct
<gmaxwell>
TD-Linux: right. For "bitcoin script" I think all of these very low level machines are in a sad shape, in terms of formal reasoning about the contract's behavior. We do care about both... but achieving consensus exactness of the VM itself is a strictly higher order priority.
<TD-Linux>
what is the other requirement that makes bitcoin script itself not suitable for this?
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<gmaxwell>
TD-Linux: Basically, for expirementation at least it's super useful to be able to take legacy code, legacy tools, and legacy skills and apply them to a new execution enviroment. E.g. say I want to make a smart contract that pays to the winner of a chess game. Having to go reimplement the move consistency rules from scratch in a totally new enviroment, with not yet existing tools, etc.. not very
<gmaxwell>
fun for expirementation.
<TD-Linux>
ah so it should be a gcc target
<gmaxwell>
Yup.
<gmaxwell>
Or at least easily gcc targetable (via patches or whatnot). Good luck targeting (enhanced) bitcoin script from GCC. :)
<TD-Linux>
ok. I'm still a bit biased towards risc-v then because it has way more implementations (at least 3 different HDL languages even) but I might make a table comparing them
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<gmaxwell>
There are also ~three places where I think cpu simulators are interesting: (1) the implementation of consensus systems themselves. It's very hard to know that the consensus bitcoin core implements is actually the same on different systems. An assurance method we've discussed is moving most of the consensus logic into a bytecoded VM then you only have to be sure that the execution enviroment is co
<gmaxwell>
nsistent. (2) Smart contract system for expiremental usage-- I strongly think a _good_ smart contract system needs powerful facilities for formally reasoning about the contracts.... but that sucks for rapid development, where you want to use existing code. For this you need a very simple, easily to tell its safe _and_ consistent execution enviroment which is gcc targetable. Bonus if it has high i
<gmaxwell>
nstruciton density. (3) Safe portable execution enviroment for off blockchain smart contracts. Similar requirements to (2) but perhaps performance and consistency aren't as important. I'd say for (3) you could use NACL ... except good luck auditing that.
<gmaxwell>
I found moxie after looking for something like tinyram. Tinyram is a little load/store VM designed specifically so that zero knowedlge proofs build using arithemetic circuits checking transcripts of its execution are especially compact. Nice thing about it is that it only has about a dozen instructions. Bad thing is that none of the code for it has been released, and moxie was the nearest thin
<gmaxwell>
g I could find that actually had gcc and gdb patches out there.
<nsh>
argh, very interesting backlog chats again....
<gmaxwell>
For the above applications (as opposed to the ZKP stuff) the crazy tight restriction on the number of instructions isn't so important, though things like being load/store instead of taking memory operands is very nice for making an easily audited simulator.
<nsh>
do we have a dedicated log surmisingguyye yet?
<nsh>
is that on the agenda?
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<gmaxwell>
nsh: would be nice. not clear how to get there yet. There is talk about creating such a thing.
* nsh
nods
<nsh>
i may try to find some time to run a basic corpus analysis to allow excerpt reference by 'concept' [proxy measured by statistically-improbably-phrases and enumerated cryptographic of blockchain-domain concept tokens)
<nsh>
after that it's mostly a case of crowd-sourcing the separation into wiki articles
<nsh>
but it would have to be done by people at some threshold of comprehension
<nsh>
as a lot of the talk here is way above my head, and i consider myself someone more than passingly interested and more than averagely well-read on the subjects
<kanzure>
by "crowdsourcing" do you mean "make kanzure do it"? who exactly do you think is in that crowd.
<nsh>
yes, that is what i meant
<nsh>
but to be fair, you do better work than most crowds i've met :)
<nsh>
i am always available to be pestered for copyediting though :)
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<kanzure>
gmaxwell: not sure whether "index" or "summaries" is higher priority. for an index i think there should be some bip-style number assignment going on.
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<gmaxwell>
I think step 0 is indexing. Thats sort of the raw feed for summaries.
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<kanzure>
seems pretty strange when i'm going through my bookmark list to make things like "coinjoin" followed by "some inferior form of coinjoin that was proposed later/earlier"
<kanzure>
*feels pretty strange
<gmaxwell>
Well the main "CoinJoin" post was intentionally watered down from the protocol I discussed in the taint rich thread, specifically because I was trying to get people actually working on the darn stuff.
<gmaxwell>
Figuring that even crappy versions were essential for disrupting the rise of "taint analysis" as a working thing for commercial purposes.
<kanzure>
some tech proposals are underspecified and could reasonably be classified as low signal. not sure whether to include/exclude. if included then decreases signal of overall index.
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<gmaxwell>
kanzure: well so I was thinking that the indexing tagging stuff could gain a set of fields to rank things... thats where the TRL talk came in.
<gmaxwell>
Though interesting dimensions are things like viability (according to whatever brillant people have access to rank), clarity of description, centrality of the subject (e.g. is this an important idea that other things are based on)...
<kanzure>
something's still missing, somehow an index is not materializing in front of me. i'll keep thinking.
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<nsh>
thinking is the worst
<nsh>
i've never achieved anything really in life by thinking hard. or otherwise, i suppose. but especially not by thinking hard
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<maaku>
i've achieved a headache by thinking hard
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<jgarzik>
maaku, One is supposed to beat one's head against _metaphorical_ walls, not real ones
<jgarzik>
;p
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<maaku>
mental brain dump regarding script/moxie/risc-v opcodes: having entire instruction spaces that behave as [1 RETURN] (original meaning) allows state-changing soft-fork upgrades
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<gmaxwell>
maaku: You mean having pubkeys that somewhere in the middle of execution old systems parse as _RETURN TRUE NOW_? Right. Care must be taken that the execution model allows no captive enviroment which could capture the return.
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<gmaxwell>
Anyone in here have access to IAR compiler? I'm interested in knowing if it happily compiles libsecp256k1 and how much its MISRA conformance checking barfs on it (and how sensible the reporting is from it)