jhass changed the topic of #crystal-lang to: The Crystal programming language | http://crystal-lang.org | Crystal 0.18.7 | Fund Crystals development: http://is.gd/X7PRtI | Paste > 3 lines of text to https://gist.github.com | GH: https://github.com/crystal-lang/crystal | Docs: http://crystal-lang.org/docs/ | API: http://crystal-lang.org/api/ | Logs: http://irclog.whitequark.org/crystal-lang
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<dostoyevsky> Is that for crystal the language or crystal the drug?
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<jhass> dostoyevsky: what do you think -lang in the channel name stands for? ;)
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<txdv> jhass: crystal should have a make equivalent called meth
<jhass> write one?
<txdv> i just wanted to make funny
<txdv> not write an actual library
<dostoyevsky> :)
<dostoyevsky> What are some differences to the Ruby language in crystal?
<dostoyevsky> I'd imagine monkey patching might not work as one sometimes does it in Ruby... (and eval obviously)
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<dostoyevsky> Crystal's Meth library could provide eval though, (calls the compiler during run time)
<jhass> ?ruby
<DeBot> jhass: Nothing known about ruby.
<jhass> mh
<jhass> ?ruby=Crystal is not a Ruby compiler, it's its own language, inspired by Ruby, but compatibility is not a goal. Have a look at https://github.com/crystal-lang/crystal/wiki/Crystal-for-Rubyists for some of the key differences.
<DeBot> jhass: Set ruby.
<jhass> (reload I updated something)
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<txdv> dostoyevsky: there is already a library callde meth?
<jhass> but given no central registry it's not taken forever yet ;)
<dostoyevsky> If all fails I still can write my own crystal implementation and call it Meth, like I did with my scheme implementation when I called it ponzi :)
<txdv> You can always do your thing
<txdv> its just that the only person doing your thing will be you
<dostoyevsky> txdv: That's how all things start anyways...
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<txdv> back in the day we used o have gangs of hackers who would start a project together
<txdv> now everyone is out for himself
<jhass> is that so
<jhass> everything that survived to today seems to have started as a one-person effort
<dostoyevsky> txdv: Did you read the announcement of PHP or Linux in UseNet?
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<txdv> dostoyevsky: no
<txdv> o, i guess yes
<txdv> yeah, linus famous "this is nothing big, check my OS out"
<dostoyevsky> Just some guy with an idea, started something themselves and it took off
<txdv> yeah, i dont like php
<jhass> php's terrible function naming is because the guy couldn't be bothered to write a proper hash function for his toy project
<dostoyevsky> Still haven't learned PHP... I guess I dodged that bullet for long enough :)
<txdv> php is just an accumulation of awlful things
<txdv> people who use it tend to write horrible code too
<BlaXpirit> it's easy to beat on php but that's beside the point
<dostoyevsky> I remember that maybe 5 years ago, you could get paid quite well being a PHP developer... because that's what most websites used
<dostoyevsky> txdv: Facebook was written in php, so it must be good
<BlaXpirit> oh goddammit
<txdv> and even they moved from php to something with types
<txdv> "hacklang"
<dostoyevsky> Linkedin moved from Ruby to Java iirc
<txdv> twitter too
<txdv> get big, use static typing
<txdv> scripting languages are always nice for small projects
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<dostoyevsky> I really like node for speed... v8 ist just so fast... best jit ever imho
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<dostoyevsky> and I do not think I could write faster code in C or Rust for some of the regular expression parsers I use
<txdv> regex is already slow
<dostoyevsky> because PCRE's jit isn't going to be as good as v8's
<jhass> getting big means not using a single technology as your do it all tool anymore, whether it fits the job or not, but hire people that can do the job well with whatever tool necessary to do it well
<jhass> this "big X" uses/does not use bullshit annoys the hell out of me
<txdv> yeah, but if you'd hire people to write something to write with crystal, they'd have to write some libs for it first
<txdv> to write something with crystal*
<txdv> this is why so many people jump on the java train
<txdv> *there is already a lib for it*
<dostoyevsky> jhass: you may never know for sure what Big X is using anyways :)
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<txdv> "I can't code with language X because it just doesn't have the ecosystem fo Java" - my most hated argument
<jhass> I see it more as "there's already 10 libs for it and I'm never sure which one is remotely sane" but yeah
<jhass> dostoyevsky: more importantly, it's completely irrelevant to my own projects
<jhass> it's an argument to appeal rather than technological demands
<dostoyevsky> I think the days where a company sticks to certain technologies are over anyways... most companies just use everything, and have no problem migrating to something entirely new...
<jhass> sure
<jhass> and yet even that is irrelevant to you
<jhass> you're not big
<dostoyevsky> And then you have mainframes, java, and lots of modern stuff all of a sudden in normal companies
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<jhass> you'll have resources to worry about it if you get, now you don't
<dostoyevsky> I'd say the tipping point was just how you could communicate with other infrastructures and for a long time there was only Corba as a standard and then they had this EJB idea... but since simple http/rest apis with json have gained traction pretty much anyway, interopability is not an big issue anymore... and even on mainframes, you can have REST/apis in python or other scripting languages too
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<Crizkov> Hi!, someone has sent Crystal examples for "99 bottles of beer" to http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/ ???
<Crizkov> My example https://gist.github.com/anonymous/7faba16c2d88855862c371396afdf70c I tried to use Crystal features
<Crizkov> I still didn't send this to http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/
<jhass> Crizkov: nice, let me give a couple of comments
<jhass> @take and @beer should be constants
<BlaXpirit> Crizkov, why use UInt8?
<BlaXpirit> just drop that
<jhass> or start with one https://carc.in/#/r/16xw
<BlaXpirit> bah i give up, too many comments. sorry
<Crizkov> http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/ says that: "Your example should demonstrate the main advantages and features of the language"
<BlaXpirit> not putting type annotations is one
<jhass> I wouldn't slice out the "on the wall", rather have a constant without it and append it
<Crizkov> ok, but seems not major difference to ruby, https://github.com/crystal-lang/crystal/wiki/Crystal-for-Rubyists
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<BlaXpirit> which is another advantage arguably
<Crizkov> Well, A Crystal feature is "Have a syntax similar to Ruby" :-)
<BlaXpirit> over-engineering is exactly what you expect from this kind of silly website
<jhass> http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-ruby-787.html is probably the least terrible
<Crizkov> I was checking this http://helloworldcollection.de/ then -> "For a collection of programs that tell more about what programming in the languages actually is like, have a look at the 99 Bottles of Beer collection." But seems that no one has sent examples before???
<jhass> is the most active community of that kind I know of for Crystal
<Crizkov> nice!!!, thanks you jhass. Rossetta looks better that 99 bottles of beer (99bb seems outdated)
<BlaXpirit> indeed
<dostoyevsky> 99 seems awfully small too... today it should be 99 gogols of beer clouds
<Crizkov> X-D
<dostoyevsky> Hmmm... so the current Xeon E7 intel processor takes 3TB of ram... using a GC based language will be something of the past soon, imho
<dostoyevsky> If you are writing apps that use TB of ram, that is
<dostoyevsky> (Looking at you, Chrome)
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<jhass> well, how likely is it that those TBs of data are frequently changing
<jhass> it's more like you read them and then scan through them repeatedly or flip a couple of bits here and there
<jhass> you wouldn't dealloc/realloc them
<dostoyevsky> jhass: In my uses cases I really used it like a big database... writing all the time... mostly indexes for TB/log files a day, but with custom allocators in C... Still, someone from my team used Rust with similar successes
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<jhass> yet, was the amount of data that you permanently dealloced/realloced in the TBs, or would you say it would be average usecase that they are? Or is just that you keep a big chunk in memory and realloc/dealloc small chunks over time
<dostoyevsky> jhass: In my use case I would get like 100G/s of data, so like 10TB a day via a 10G ethernet connection... I wouldn't realloc or dealloc, just use my own O(1) allocator that used fixed block sizes, so memory doesn't fragment... basically I implemented a lookback window for this kind of data that would expire after a week, too much for a traditional database that we used for more long-lived data
<dostoyevsky> s/100G/100M/ :)
<jhass> so you have a constant pointer that you always have a reference to, you mark it as opague to the GC (not containing pointers to any other objects) and it wouldn't bother about it
<dostoyevsky> jhass: Well, it had pointers, it was a big hashtable... but you probably could tell the GC just not to bother about it
<dostoyevsky> Like I told malloc not to do anythingthing with this
<jhass> anyway, what I'm trying to say is that just because you have lots of memory, it doesn't mean a GC gets useless for all usecases
<jhass> just for those where it would have to scan it all the time
<jhass> which I think are less than one would think initially, in scenarios when working with that amount of memory anyway
<dostoyevsky> jhass: for now I am not sure how many GCs actually support more than 1G of heap... Maybe only the Azul one
<jhass> I don't see any heap limit mentioned for bdwgc
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<jhass> https://carc.in/#/r/16yd here's my 99 bottles of beer version btw
<dostoyevsky> jhass: you just took the ruby version :)
<jhass> no?
<dostoyevsky> Oh, actually it's not a valid ruby program :)
<jhass> some edits https://carc.in/#/r/16ye
<jhass> now I gotta make String::Format accept named tuples
<crystal-gh> [crystal] timcraft opened pull request #3142: Implement URI#== and URI#hash (master...uri-equals-and-hash) https://git.io/v60WX
<crystal-gh> [crystal] jhass opened pull request #3143: Named tuple string key access (master...named_tuple_string_keys) https://git.io/v60lu
<A124> Does crystal have real threads already? Or do Fibers work like goroutines?
<txdv> it has one real thread
<A124> Any way to have multiple real threads?
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<A124> And is that planned for future?
<RX14> thats planned for next release
<RX14> having fibers be multiplexed over multiple OS threads to get parallelism
<A124> Excellent.
<A124> Currently, spawn does have inter process communication, so can one copy data over?
<A124> According to issue 1967 it seems like channels should do the trick.
<RX14> yes, they share memory just like real threads. Channels is the rpeferred way of communicating though
<FromGitter> <sumproxy> What's the status of windows support?
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<A124> So one can also use a mutex and shared memory. Please correct if wrong.
<A124> Avoiding copy in some situations would boost a lot, and using channels for control signals for the idiomatic way.
<RX14> yes, well sending a class via channels will only send the pointer, so you don't need to do anything special
<RX14> @sumproxy somewhere in the indefinite future. The hardest part about windows support is porting the stdlib.
<FromGitter> <sumproxy> @RX14 doesn't sound too inspiring :(
<RX14> jhass, if i checkout release/0.18 then run `make spec release=true` i get spec failures...
<RX14> @sumproxy, well windows support is a low priority for now
<FromGitter> <sumproxy> What do you guys think about finding a big sponsor to boost the whole development?
<jhass> RX14: after a make clean?
<RX14> jhass, after a git clean -fdx
<RX14> so yes
<RX14> clean checkout
<RX14> on the 0.18.7 tag
<jhass> compiler or standard library failures?
<RX14> jhass, interesting failures... https://aww.moe/2jrk1l.txt
<jhass> llvm 3.5?
<RX14> uhh
<RX14> yes
<RX14> llvm35 fron extra
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<FromGitter> <Sija> hi, anyone had any experiences with pointers un/boxing between Crystal-land and C?
<jhass> I take a stick and poke at it until it no longer crashes
<jhass> in other words, what's your actual question?
<FromGitter> <Sija> @jhass: I tried to explain the problem in #3140
<jhass> RX14: you're probably the first to run the specs in release mode...
<RX14> well...
<RX14> they SHOULD work
<RX14> like sha failing in release mode
<RX14> isnt that a big deal...
<RX14> jhass, can you reproduce?
<jhass> compiling the compiler specs in release mode takes too long
<jhass> but with the stdlib split, perhaps we should add it for that to travis
<jhass> asterite: ^
<RX14> yes but shouldn't you test specs in release mode before releasing at least
<jhass> RX14: I can, currently trying with 3.5 on master and then with 3.8 on master
<RX14> ok, good
<RX14> i thought it was my pc for a while
<jhass> if the last works we'll probably not backport a fix
<RX14> this PC actually doesn't pass memtest...
<jhass> hah
<RX14> it looks like codegen bugs in release mode somehow
<RX14> some bits changed around
<jhass> well, yes, or rather codegen that leads to wrong behavior after LLVM's optimizer
<jhass> hence if it works with 3.8 ...
<RX14> i have no idea why the process spec fails though
<jhass> 3.5 on master is green already
<jhass> so we just need to release :P
<RX14> well i wouldn't trust that it's truly fuxed
<jhass> Sija: this quite hard to poke at without being able to do it locally on code :/
<FromGitter> <Sija> @jhass: It seems to me that either Proc docs are wrong in regard to holding the pointer (to callback vs boxed data) or I'm missing sth
<RX14> optimisations will depends on the code around it right?
<jhass> we need a smaller testcase :/
<FromGitter> <Sija> `Box.box` creates new `Box` object (https://github.com/crystal-lang/crystal/blob/master/src/box.cr#L19) which gets GC-ed l8r on
<BlaXpirit> ok, everything correct so far
<FromGitter> <Sija> `Box.unbox` then tries to recover GC-ed object (https://github.com/crystal-lang/crystal/blob/master/src/box.cr#L25)
<BlaXpirit> ok, correct
<FromGitter> <Sija> which ofc leads to `Invalid memory access`
<FromGitter> <Sija> I don't rly get this `Box` thing since I can pass `self.as(Void*)` and l8r on "unbox" it via `foo = data.as(Foo)`, so why would I need to create another object as a holder?
<BlaXpirit> so it doesn't GC -_-
<BlaXpirit> yes you don't necessarily need this Box indirection but then you can't pass closures
<FromGitter> <Sija> @BlaXpirit yeah, I was using it exactly in this way, and it *got GC-ed* :/
<FromGitter> <Sija> @BlaXpirit What I'm trying to say is that docs are stating sth that's simply incorrect
<BlaXpirit> what part of "We must save this in Crystal-land so the GC doesn't collect it" is not clear?
<FromGitter> <Sija> ... neither?
<FromGitter> <Sija> which part of #3140 is not clear to you?
<BlaXpirit> you know what? i think you're right, sorry
<FromGitter> <Sija> uff, thanks for telling me that 'cause i got a bit frustrated already ;)
<FromGitter> <Sija> docs say "save `callback`" and I say "save `data_as_callback` and (if u need it) `callback`"
<FromGitter> <Sija> otherwise this whole `Box` thing doesn't work as advertised
<FromGitter> <Sija> `Box.box` could also bake the reference keeping in somehow
<BlaXpirit> nah, that's basically a global array
<BlaXpirit> or set
<FromGitter> <Sija> either this or fixing every `Box.box` in the code ;)
<FromGitter> <alex-lairan> Hi everyones, I want to parse my YAML file into a data on my program, I have this code, but I think this is realy ugly ^.^
<FromGitter> <alex-lairan> ```code paste, see link``` [https://gitter.im/crystal-lang/crystal?at=57adc3fc46610f1739550ffb]
<FromGitter> <alex-lairan> Do you have something better?
<FromGitter> <alex-lairan> Thank for your help ! :)
<jhass> data = YAML.parse(File.read(filename))
<RX14> you can call gets_to_end to get the IO as a string
<BlaXpirit> yes, what jhass said. i needed a while to confirm this in the docs
<FromGitter> <alex-lairan> Thank you guy's ! One liner :3
<FromGitter> <alex-lairan> It works ! :)
<jhass> <3
<BlaXpirit> strange that yaml doesn't have a class method to parse from an io
<jhass> yeah
<jhass> but then it would need evented IO integration somehow
<BlaXpirit> oh
<jhass> not sure if libyaml has the necessary hooks for that
<crystal-gh> [crystal] asterite pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/v60ra
<crystal-gh> crystal/master 9ba646f masukomi: added spec tests to confirm heredocs work tabs + spaces...
<crystal-gh> crystal/master 7124a30 Ary Borenszweig: Merge pull request #3141 from masukomi/heredoc_mixed_tabs_and_spaces...
<jhass> RX14: master/llvm 3.8 passed too
<crystal-gh> [crystal] asterite closed pull request #3142: Implement URI#== and URI#hash (master...uri-equals-and-hash) https://git.io/v60WX
<crystal-gh> [crystal] asterite closed pull request #3138: Add Hash#has_value? (master...hash-has_value) https://git.io/v6Bhs
<crystal-gh> [crystal] jhass opened pull request #3144: run standard library specs in release mode on travis (master...release_specs) https://git.io/v60o4
<RX14> jhass, but on release/0.18 neither pass?
<RX14> bisect time?
<jhass> 0.18 isn't llvm 3.8 compatible
<RX14> oh yeah
<FromGitter> <Sija> @BlaXpirit https://github.com/BlaXpirit/crsfml/blob/sources/src/system/obj.cr#L957 - you did the right thing there btw, in contrast to the docs :)
<BlaXpirit> i sure did. jhass was a great teacher
<FromGitter> <Sija> that's what I call a Good Company ;)
<txdv> is this threading functionality?
<BlaXpirit> txdv, yes, OS threads that break on any non-trivial use
<txdv> sounds nice to use
<txdv> :D
<BlaXpirit> the worst part is whenever an object would be GC'd in a separate thread, it just crashes
<txdv> does it come with a shotgun that shoots both forwards and backwards at once?
<BlaXpirit> i'm just making the api available to use :| nothing personal about it
<RX14> i wouldn't bind that part of CSFML if i knew crystal couldn't handle it
<BlaXpirit> not CSFML anymore :p
<txdv> that is a lot of work you put into these bindings
<travis-ci> crystal-lang/crystal#7124a30 (master - Merge pull request #3141 from masukomi/heredoc_mixed_tabs_and_spaces): The build passed. https://travis-ci.org/crystal-lang/crystal/builds/151790306
<RX14> jhass, why don't you run all specs in release mode? Might want to run that in parallel using a matrix build too.
<BlaXpirit> RX14, i don't think that it being a proper matrix or not affects parallel-ness
<jhass> I'm not confident travis has even enough memory for this
<jhass> even if it does it probably will take 30+ minutes longer
<RX14> yeah
<RX14> this is why I would get my own CI architecture :/
<jhass> sure, will you pay the servers for us? :)
<RX14> you can get good servers for very cheap off ebay these days, then go for colo
<RX14> people don't know the value of their own hardware
<txdv> hardware is cheap
<RX14> yeah, human costs i know
<txdv> i have a server hanging around, running irssi and tmux
<txdv> :D
<RX14> well as a student my time is free to me and servers are not, so using aws and the like is just not worth it for me
<BlaXpirit> my internet connection has no public ip address, goes down sometimes, electricity goes down sometimes (not to mention it costs money) thats why i use a VPS
<BlaXpirit> of course crystal would need a ton of RAM
<RX14> only 8gb per job i would say
<RX14> ram is cheap
<txdv> 16:13:10 up 106 days
<BlaXpirit> most VPS services are not flexible enough to make RAM cheap. but yeah, u could probably find a good one
<txdv> although my server has a shitty cpu
<RX14> you can get some dual cpu machines with 32gb ram for super super cheap on ebay
<RX14> then colo is like 30 bucks a month
<FromGitter> <Sija> also hetzner has decent servers for ~50eur/month (https://www.hetzner.de/en/ )
<RX14> yup
<txdv> what llvm does crystal need?
<BlaXpirit> 3.5, 3.6 (or 3.8 on master)
<RX14> "You will need LLVM 3.5, 3.6 or 3.8, 3.6 is not supported."
<RX14> who wrote this
<BlaXpirit> lol
<RX14> it was jhass
<BlaXpirit> ninja'd
<jhass> uh, damn
<jhass> you've seen nothing
* jhass vanishes
<FromGitter> <sdogruyol> I use Kimsufi
<FromGitter> <sdogruyol> Bang for bucks
<BlaXpirit> wow
<travis-ci> crystal-lang/crystal#41bff3b (master - Merge pull request #3142 from timcraft/uri-equals-and-hash): The build passed. https://travis-ci.org/crystal-lang/crystal/builds/151790775
<FromGitter> <sdogruyol> I wonder how much a minimum CI setup for Crystal cost (for Crystal itself)
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<RX14> well it depends on the specs you want for the CI server really
<travis-ci> crystal-lang/crystal#d08b492 (master - Add Hash#has_value? (#3138)): The build passed. https://travis-ci.org/crystal-lang/crystal/builds/151791325
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<RX14> i wonder if travis allow larger source projects to just run more parallel builds
<FromGitter> <Sija> asking nicely wouldn't hurt, who knows
<RX14> heh large allocation warnings
<jhass> well those we have for a while
<BlaXpirit> :(
<RX14> jhass, can you even see the difference there?
<jhass> I can't
<RX14> yeah
<jhass> the question is why it passes in the non-optimized build
<RX14> magic of course
<RX14> anyway, i think we will eventually want our own CI if only to support 64+32 bit windows, linux, osx and maybe some BSDs on CI
<jhass> yes, once we're big enough to get those boxes sponsored
<txdv> or once there is actual windows support?
<jhass> I think those will coincidence ;)
<crystal-gh> [crystal] asterite opened pull request #3145: Add YAML.parse(IO) (master...feature/yaml_parse_io) https://git.io/v609V
<jhass> \o/
<RX14> how? don't we use libyaml?
<RX14> can libyaml take chunks?
<jhass> idk, let's see
<RX14> also, google compute engine might be able to support a large majority of the OSes
<jhass> it has a callback
<jhass> LibYAML.yaml_parser_set_input(@parser, ->(data, buffer, size, size_read) {
<RX14> we might be able to just hack our own CI together using google compute for basically free
<RX14> osx will probably be more of a pain
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<crystal-gh> [crystal] asterite closed pull request #3145: Add YAML.parse(IO) (master...feature/yaml_parse_io) https://git.io/v609V
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<travis-ci> crystal-lang/crystal#5118882 (master - Add YAML.parse(IO) (#3145)): The build passed. https://travis-ci.org/crystal-lang/crystal/builds/151821037
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<crystal-gh> [crystal] asterite pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/v6EmZ
<crystal-gh> crystal/master f1b0505 Ary Borenszweig: Fixed Slice#hexdump index out of bounds
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<travis-ci> crystal-lang/crystal#f1b0505 (master - Fixed Slice#hexdump index out of bounds): The build passed. https://travis-ci.org/crystal-lang/crystal/builds/151857361
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<crystal-gh> [crystal] hugoabonizio opened pull request #3146: Fix typo in TCP server sample (master...patch-3) https://git.io/v6EZM
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<crystal-gh> [crystal] jhass closed pull request #3146: Fix typo in TCP server sample (master...patch-3) https://git.io/v6EZM
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<travis-ci> crystal-lang/crystal#2d9a84c (master - Fix typo in TCP server sample (#3146)): The build passed. https://travis-ci.org/crystal-lang/crystal/builds/151872709
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<RX14> hmm, could the class variable getter/setter/property macros have the syntax `property self.foo`
<RX14> i think that would be quite nice
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<jhass> it probably could
<jhass> I'm on the fence whether I like it, have to think more about it
<jhass> perhaps property @@foo too
<RX14> jhass, maybe, although i like self. more because it's the method syntax
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<RX14> is there no way to create a sha1 digest while streaming data in crystal? read a chunk, update the digest, then write the chunk again?
<RX14> oh, OpenSSL::Digest.new
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