ELLIOTTCABLE changed the topic of #elliottcable to: a _better_ cult
<purr\Paws> [Paws.js] ELLIOTTCABLE pushed 7 new commits to Master: https://github.com/ELLIOTTCABLE/Paws.js/compare/4d8e69ba3cc1...9c944c2f4364
<purr\Paws> Paws.js/Master 5430549 elliottcable: (- ux meta) Warn users if they run before `npm install`
<purr\Paws> Paws.js/Master e83acf7 elliottcable: (new) Implements the executable's 'start' functionality
<purr\Paws> Paws.js/Master cb54899 elliottcable: (- fix) Correctly handle verbosity environment-variables
<joelteon> god damn it
<joelteon> apple is buying beats by dre
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> joelteon: WHAT.
<purr> beep.
<joelteon> yea
<joelteon> like wtf
<ELLIOTTCABLE> … fuckin', just, what.
<joelteon> why do they want to get worse sounding equipment for 3x as much
<joelteon> guess i'm gonna build a gaming pc now
<joelteon> RIP apple had a good run
<ELLIOTTCABLE> lol
<purr> lol
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: it's not that I'm *uninterested* in your opinions on PL. in fact, your opinions, per se, are not something I have commented on;
<ELLIOTTCABLE> was talking to chellio about this the other day
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Jobs died, and *everything* changed.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> noticed how many leaks are coming out, nowadays?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> seen the iPhone 6 leaks? /-
<ELLIOTTCABLE> iOS7!
<joelteon> i havent seen the iphone 6 leaks
<ELLIOTTCABLE> they look like slightly-Apple-ified Androids.
<joelteon> oh, cool
<ELLIOTTCABLE> cross the S5 with the black iPhone 5c, and you've got the general idea.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> not cool, ew.
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: what I have commented on, what pissed me off, and upon further analysis of that conversation, what pisses me off *even more*, is how fucking arrogant you are, sincerely believing that several decades worth of information are worthless simply because you kinda don't like it.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I don't *want* a humogoid phone /=
<ELLIOTTCABLE> whitequark: *shrugs*
<purr> ¯\(º_o)/¯
<ELLIOTTCABLE> “uninterested” or “hate”, my comments apply either way.
<whitequark> let me say it another way
<ELLIOTTCABLE> also, all I recall from that conversation, is you disliking that I put the ‘feel’ of a product before anything else. No?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> been a while, so, idk.
<whitequark> it is not the opinions, it is the way you have acquired, persisted, and are distributing that knowledge
<whitequark> no, not really
<whitequark> it is the fact that you consider yourself capable of creating a great product while completely disregarding the history of your field
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I do.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Not a *great* product, but a good one, yes.
<whitequark> you'de delusional.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Minimum viable product, and all that: being informed by history is only *one thing* that improves a product.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> And that one thing, like any other ‘feature’ you could apply to the product, costs time.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Sure, I'll give you that it's a *relatively important* thing. But prioritizing *other* positive things over that one in particular? Doesn't make me goddamn delusional.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> It may mean *I have different priorities* than you; but that's all.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> another way to put it, by flipping that entire argument on its' head:
<ELLIOTTCABLE> There's a *lot* of things that may make Paws crappy. Lack of historical foresight is far from the biggest one; and it's not the one I'm going to tackle first.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Getting code down, and figuring out whether I have *any* capability of designing a system that's fun to use, is priority one; and nothing is going to change that. After that, learning how to write a good specification, and discovering how difficult my design is to specify, is the next really important thing.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Sure, I have a lot to learn. A lot I *want* to learn.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> But I'm not going to stop EVERYTHING I'M DOING, spend ten years reading computer-science history (when I barely care about *current* computer-science!), before I write another line of code.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> And to seriously suggest that I do that, makes *you* delusional, not me. Don't you see? /=
<ELLIOTTCABLE> It's just not a reasonable position that every developer … or even, let's be generous, and reduce your argument to ‘every aspiring programming-language developer’ … should dive into history *before* they dive into code.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Build things. Make mistakes. Learn things the hard way, and repeat the past.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> That's how greatness is made.
<whitequark> apply that sentence to *any other* engineering (or even not necessarily engineering) field except of the one you're talking about, and it'll become clear
<whitequark> "hey, I don't give a fuck about whatever people invented for UI design, but I'll totally make something better than iPhone."
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Where did I once say I don't give a fuck?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I said one shouldn't *waste their time* studying the history, before diving in and learning the more important things.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> You're treating me as if I'm some experience PLT academic with no history. I'm not. I'm a noob. I have a lot of other things to get under my belt before I start worrying about Plan 9 and COBOL.
<whitequark> the history is not some irrelevant trivia; the history is a list of the most expensive mistakes you don't have to repeat
<whitequark> fwiw, it's not possible to be an academic while being unaware of the history of your field, and for this exact reason. the notion is absurd.
<alexgordon> welcome back whitequark
<alexgordon> ELLIOTTCABLE: shut the fuck up whitequark's back
<whitequark> you may also keep in mind that it took me two years of reeeeally part-time work (fulltime? at most 6 months) to get from literally 0 in PL design to the point where I don't have much problems hacking on OCaml's typechecker and, importantly for this conversation, have a pretty good understanding of why Foundry was a horrible idea
<whitequark> or, for that matter, spending a week discussing the ML typesystem with some australian guy advanced me more in implementation than the previous year of work, *because I didn't have to try all the damn bad ideas*
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: he asked me to go back
<whitequark> (and immediately shoved his enormous ego in my face. well, not like I didn't know it was going to happen)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> whitequark: … I didn't shove it in your face.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> whitequark: I replied to your comments about me. o_O
<ELLIOTTCABLE> whitequark: me talking about my beliefs to you, unasked, would be me “shoving it in your face.” /=
<ELLIOTTCABLE> (yet again, I wouldn't be saying *this*, if you hadn't said something about me shoving things in your face.)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> (I have zero desire to argue with you. /= )
<ELLIOTTCABLE> on the topic of your learning about foundry: Foundry is more-covered-ground than what I'm working on.
<whitequark> for a person who doesn't want to argue with me, you do it really often
<ELLIOTTCABLE> *Every time* I try to explain Paws to someone, I get the same damn responses: “Wow, that's … actually not like anything else I know about.”
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so forgive me if I have this idea in my head that history has little to teach me about the parts of Paws that currently need work.
<whitequark> oh lol, how can you even make a statement on what's covered if you have never actually looked at what *is* covered?
<purr> lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE> For me, the “studying the history and learning from others' work” part gets to the parts that *have* previous work.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> distribution and error-handling.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> both of those have been deferred, *specifically because* I have several books I want to read, and specific peoples' brains I want to pick (not to mention code-bases I want to spelunk), before I start making any decisions there.
<whitequark> so far, no parts of Paws are fundamentally new, as far as I can tell. it may or may not be a useful rearrangement of existing concepts.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> whitequark: I didn't say it *wasn't* covered, just that other people keep telling me it's not.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> different things.
* ELLIOTTCABLE shrugs
<purr> ¯\(º_o)/¯
<ELLIOTTCABLE> well, I'll stay out of it, then. Say what you like about me.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> katlogic: look who's here :D
<whitequark> anyway, not knowing that something is already explored is just fine. Explicitly discarding entire subfields simply because you kinda don't like them is what caused this whole thing
<whitequark> (and the reference to enormous ego was also referring to that habit.)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> … if I'm not planning to work in a particular field, because I don't like that field, then that *makes* it something I can disregard, no?
<whitequark> you do, though.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> i.e. if I dislike functional programming, then why do I need to know about it?
<whitequark> because it is a part of the PL field.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> (not to say I don't, in that particular case. I have every intention of learning more, when I have time.)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Saying it's *absolutely imperative* that I learn a ton about functional-programming before I design a very-non-functional programming-language seems a little odd …
<whitequark> if you want to design languages, you better be ready to study every single one of them (not saying you *should* study every existing language before you attempt your own. am saying that you should be prepared.)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> or maybe that's not what you were saying. I can't remember.
<whitequark> before you design *any* language.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> yeah, no, absolutely disagreed.
<whitequark> if you want it to be practical / useful / etc.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I got asked to speak about PLT to a room of beginner Ruby / JS programmers. And I *absolutely* would preach that every single one of them should go home, sit down, and try and design a programming language.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Probably won't come out *well*, but that's not the point.
<whitequark> see my remark.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Do before asking, and make before learning. /=
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ah, yeah.
<whitequark> do you want to make a practical language or a toy language?
<whitequark> if latter, sure, do absolutely whatever you want. I say nothing here and just encourage.
<prophile> making and learning aren't necessarily separate concepts
<ELLIOTTCABLE> as for that: I've said, over and over, that Paws is something I *believe* will be a useless toy, but which I am *building* as if it wasn't.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I **know** that I don't have the academic background to make a great language. “something practical / useful / etc.”
<whitequark> you don't need academic background.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but there's absolutely no reason, when you're undertaking something in life, to undertake it with anything less than absolute and complete fervor.
<whitequark> "academic background" is just an euphemism for "wasted eight years of their life in a dusty building".
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Just because I know this is my first-pass effort, and that I will learn much more, and make much better things in the future, does *not* prevent me from treating Paws as a purposeful project, and working hard at it.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but. yeah. This conversation is neither building-something-great *nor* learning-things, so it's even more wasteful than either the thing you're arguing that I should do, or the thing I *am* doing.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> off to go spend time with the friend who's just showed up. /=
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> ugh.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> sorry, alexgordon.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I don't know how to respond to all that.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> |=
<alexgordon> hi ELLIOTTCABLE
<alexgordon> I'm going to bed anyway
<ELLIOTTCABLE> sleep well o7
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<prophile> removal of innards
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<vigs> addition of outtards
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<glowcoil> hi ELLIOTTCABLE
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<trolling> all around the country, coast to coast
<trolling> people always say what do you like most
<trolling> i don't wanna brag, i don't wanna boast
<trolling> i always tell 'em, i like toast
<trolling> YEAH TOAST
<trolling> YEAH TOAST\
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<audy> morning brownie
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> fucking fuck.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> fucking FUCKING fucking fuck.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> glowcoil: hi.
<vigs> audy: hi I'm a brownie and it's the morning what's up
<ELLIOTTCABLE> fucing fucking fuking fucking fuck.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> at the airport
<ELLIOTTCABLE> missed my flight.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> was a clusterfuck of fucking fuck.
<glowcoil> hi ELLIOTTCABLE
<glowcoil> ELLIOTTCABLE: :(
<ELLIOTTCABLE> woke up a little late. Rolled like a goddamn boss, got my shit packed and rolled out.
<vigs> ELLIOTTCABLE: holy shit :/
<ELLIOTTCABLE> (I'm the experienced-traveler type; I can handle up to around seven days on a single carry-on. I generally pack the morning-of, because I know my shit.)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ughsiakbtwauoroawur
<ELLIOTTCABLE> cab driver didn't even TRY to hurry, despite me asking.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and then we hit the traffic.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> apparently a semi-truck had crashed and caught fire. idk. was an hour longer drive than expected.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so, expensive-ass cab-ride, to reach the airport for my expensive-ass bought-last-minute flight,
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I get there with approximately twenty-five minutes to spare. @elliepritts is there texting me, they're already boarding her.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I try to check-in on my phone on the way, WestJet is a cunt, and says “cannot generate boarding pass online, please go to the help desk when you arrive”
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I ONLY HAVE A CARRY-ON
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ANY OTHER AIRLINE, I'D HAVE A PASSBOOK QR CODE BY NOW
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I'D ROLL THROUGH SECURITY AND BOARD.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but no. Even though it's twenty minutes until departure (again, I've been through this waaaaaaay too many times; I'm very good at providing exactly as much leeway as I need), and I could fucking make it if they'd just give me a goddam boarding pass …
<ELLIOTTCABLE> … the lady at the “help desk”, the SINGLE LADY, with NO LINE (fucking ghost town because it's shitty WestJet), barely speaks my language,
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and all I can get from her is “I sorry sir. The system say no.”
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I'M. ALREADY. CHECKED. IN.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> JUST. PRINT. MY. BOARDING. PASS.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> FUUUUUCCCCCKKK.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> And now they want to charge me more, to board me at 3PM instead.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> </rant>
<glowcoil> ELLIOTTCABLE: sucks
<glowcoil> i'm sorry
<glowcoil> where you headed?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Vancouver with @elliepritts, to meet @bradyv & devyn
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ironically, I wouldn't be as pissed, if it were less frivolous.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but I'm pretty sure I just can't justify paying *even more*, because I already waaaaay overpaid for how important this is.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so I'm pissed because I probably won't go at all, now, and I was excited to.
<glowcoil> :(
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I love Avery.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and this is hilarious.
<glowcoil> tab dies in chrome
<ELLIOTTCABLE> glowcoil: oh, so, I tweeted at you about it, but …
<ELLIOTTCABLE> privmsg'ing
<glowcoil> ok
* glowcoil bounces to Lone
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> fuck all of the things in all of their anii.
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> woah cuttlebone I think you crashed my server.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ec and purr quit, too.
<cuttlebone> oh wow
<cuttlebone> :p
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<katlogic> 2.0 yuppies :>
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<gkatsev> ELLIOTTCABLE: you're the one reading everything I've read :P
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<vigs> !!
* vigs pats purr
* purr r
<ELLIOTTCABLE> gkatsev: :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE> vigs: hello
<ELLIOTTCABLE> glowcoil: hi
<vigs> hi
<purr> vigs: hi!
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<vigs> RIP
<ELLIOTTCABLE> lolololol
<purr> lolololol
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> well, that's serendipitous
<ELLIOTTCABLE> https://bop.fm
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> hi, all
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<vigs> hi ELLIOTTCABLE! didja find a flight today?
<vigs> -didja @ ELLIOTTCABLE
<purr> ELLIOTTCABLE: didja write a paws yet? didja? didja!?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I did write a paws, I did not go to canada
<vigs> aw :c
<ELLIOTTCABLE> This end started pointing to space; I was having a bad problem, and did not go to Canada today.
<vigs> I do not understand the first two clauses
<ELLIOTTCABLE> vigs: http://xkcd.com/1133/
<vigs> ah
<ELLIOTTCABLE> vigs: write a paws?
<vigs> I'm writing a javascript :(
<vigs> it's due tonight
<vigs> Have I mentioned how much schoolstuff can suck?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> nope
<ELLIOTTCABLE> -didja @ dskuza
<purr> dskuza: didja write a paws yet? didja? didja!?
<vigs> I'm pretty sure I have :|
<vigs> -didja @ purr
<purr> purr: didja write a paws yet? didja? didja!?
<vigs> lol
<purr> lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE> vigs: hm?
<vigs> Oh, I meant I'm pretty sure I've bitched about schoolstuff here before :P
<vigs> You said let #elliottcable be my guide
<vigs> or something of that ilk
<ELLIOTTCABLE> LOL
<ELLIOTTCABLE> vigs: Pokemon?
<vigs> ELLIOTTCABLE: Y
<ELLIOTTCABLE> cool. I'm X, and JD's X too. :D
<ELLIOTTCABLE> we're both new
<vigs> Red, Gold, Emerald, FireRed, Platinum, HeartGold, Black, Black2, and Y. Eventually AlphaSapphire.
<vigs> nice
<vigs> Well, I have nearly 300 hours on that game, so AMA
<vigs> (Although many of those were just letting my 3DS idle overnight)
<vigs> Hell, I'm a regular on a pokémon IRC channel, so I could probably help you with a thing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<vigs> ELLIOTTCABLE: Added you!
<joelteon> Yeah I'm going to buy AlphaSapphire as soon as it comes out
<vigs> same :D
<vigs> my brother's getting OmegaRuby
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> I've only done FireRed.
<vigs> IMO it okay. Kanto was a pretty boring region
<joelteon> hoenn is the fucking best
<vigs> RSE brought a LOT of color and variety to the environments, so the switch from gen2-->3 was massive and made me love gen3
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<vigs> し(*・∀・)/♡\(・∀・*) BRO FISTU
<vigs> joelteon: ^
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> gen3 <3
<vigs> no ELLIOTTCABLE, gen3 === 3
<ELLIOTTCABLE> vigs: hm?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> vigs: no, FireRed is gen3
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ruby was gen2, fire gen1
<vigs> ELLIOTTCABLE: I know. But you said "gen3 <3" and gen3 is not less than 3
<vigs> gen3 IS the third generation
<ELLIOTTCABLE> … lol.
<purr> lol
<vigs> "ruby was gen2, fire gen1" FALSE
<vigs> SO FALSE
<vigs> gen1: Green, Blue, Red, Yellow
<vigs> gen2: Gold, Silver, Crystal
<vigs> gen3: Ruby, Sapphire, Emerald, FireRed, LeafGreen
<vigs> gen4: Diamond, Pearl, Platinum, HeartGold, SoulSilver
<vigs> gen5: Black, White, Black2, White2
<vigs> gen6: X, Y, AlphaSapphire, OmegaRuby
<joelteon> i played diamond on an emulator to play with arceus
<joelteon> it wasn't worth it
* vigs dusts shoulder