ELLIOTTCABLE changed the topic of #elliottcable to: screw syntax, make neat languages
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> `rtxczx dw^YEA1``swqzaq!``3
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ick
<ELLIOTTCABLE> A wild devyn appears maybe?
<devyn> ELLIOTTCABLE: hi
<devyn> just thinking about how I'm going to do ownership and shit
<devyn> which is related
<devyn> of course
<devyn> Rust has this neat thing
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so, lessee, what was I saying when I dumped soda all over my laptop
<ELLIOTTCABLE> omfg it's sticky D:
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Noooooo
<ELLIOTTCABLE> FUCK
<devyn> you're lucky you didn't short anything
<ELLIOTTCABLE> me.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> never had that happen.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> spilled liquids on electronics hundreds of times in my life. never once had any actual damage to the electronics in question.
<devyn> I spilled water on my MacBook and shorted the MagSafe adapter
<ELLIOTTCABLE> consumer electronics are *way* more water-resistant than people think.
<devyn> thankfully that was all
<devyn> but they had to replace the whole body
<ELLIOTTCABLE> anyway, so, thingsnstuff
<ELLIOTTCABLE> reading that page makes me not want to Rust. |=
<ELLIOTTCABLE> partially 'cuz cloud head.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> cloudhead*
<ELLIOTTCABLE> anyway
<ELLIOTTCABLE> important thing to remember, devyn:
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ownership has nothing to do with concurrency/locking, from the point of view of you (the implementer)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> all of *your* procedures must already be concurrency-safe, of course, if your implementation is concurrent … but language-level concurrency and access constructs don't help with ownership. Completely unrelated.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Helps a lot if you think about ownership as an ordering system (which it is), not a concurrency system.
<devyn> yes, I know
<devyn> I'm thinking about a way though
<devyn> to maybe combine the two
<devyn> to make it faster?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> how so?
<devyn> well, if I just hold references to RWLock guards on the objects
<devyn> hmm
<devyn> id
<devyn> idk*
<devyn> never mind I guess
<devyn> did you check out the RWLock thing?
<devyn> it's a mutex that allows multiple concurrent immutable access
<devyn> or single mutable access
<oldskirt> ELLIOTTCABLE: wtf why do you tweet "writing on the web is dead".. what even do you define as "writing on the web"?
<devyn> I can't get used to your new nick
<devyn> it's so weird
<devyn> but
<devyn> as
<devyn> wwebsite on the internet
<glowcoil> ELLIOTTCABLE: i don't like a couple details about that article
<glowcoil> ELLIOTTCABLE: about higher kinds in rust
<ELLIOTTCABLE> why?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> oldskirt: Anything that isn't on Twitter or Facebook, I suppose.
* ELLIOTTCABLE oldskirt: as for “why,” read my tweet-stream from today.
<oldskirt> ELLIOTTCABLE: yeah, reading backwards right now
<ELLIOTTCABLE> FUCKING FUCK, IRCCLOUD. ME GRAZING THE ⌘ KEY DOES NOT MEAN I WANT TO /ME MY SENTENCE
<ELLIOTTCABLE> oldskirt: basically:
<ELLIOTTCABLE> nobody is able to come up with a *real use-case* for their blogs.
<glowcoil> he says "i feel like special-case [] for higher kinds is more natural"
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I was thinking about this, because I can't find a motivation to write a blog-post.
<glowcoil> which makes *no sense* to me whatsoever
<ELLIOTTCABLE> glowcoil: … syntactic argument? really?
<glowcoil> how does "different brackets if n > 1" make sense
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Some people are lucky, and have a ‘grandfathered-in’ followership, who actually waste their lives and time subscribing to that person's writing via e-mail lists or RSS.
<glowcoil> ELLIOTTCABLE: i didn't know higher kinds were a thing for the longest time using them in haskell
<ELLIOTTCABLE> But the set of people for who that is true is vanishingly small; and nobody *new* can get into that group. That group is closed, and functionally defunct.
<glowcoil> ELLIOTTCABLE: because haskell just has functions on the type level
<glowcoil> ELLIOTTCABLE: so it's not just syntactic, it shows he has an unnatural weird separation in his head
<ELLIOTTCABLE> For somebody wishing to start writing for an audience in today's world, just starting a block and exposing RSS is not a serious option.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> You can:
<oldskirt> ELLIOTTCABLE: hmm but the size constraints of twitter/reddit etc + linkability with good URLs necessitates some site that you control, doesn't it?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> - Write content somewhere/anywhere, and link to that from your Twitter, if you have a Twitter following
<ELLIOTTCABLE> EYS
<ELLIOTTCABLE> YES*
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Exactly my argument.
<oldskirt> so yeah, a blog is exactly that
<ELLIOTTCABLE> “Blogging” in 2014 is self-hosted Twitlonger, and nothing more.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> And that's absurd to me.
<oldskirt> ah
<ELLIOTTCABLE> anyway. not something I want to talk about in IRC.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> -didja @ oldskirt
<purr> oldskirt: didja write a paws yet? didja? didja!?
<oldskirt> yeah it's definitely not the "blogging" of 2006 anymore
<ELLIOTTCABLE> not my point
<ELLIOTTCABLE> blogging has always been dumb
<oldskirt> hahaha
<oldskirt> kind of
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but *writing, period* is basically defunct; and that's really disgusting
<glowcoil> ugh scratch on my screen
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I don't have a lot of hope for shit like Medium.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> You can't Twitter-ify writing, because writing *already exists*. No single service can absorb enough of the …
<ELLIOTTCABLE> nope done
<ELLIOTTCABLE> anyway
<ELLIOTTCABLE> glowcoil: Help.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and devyn.
<oldskirt> lol
<purr> lol
<glowcoil> ELLIOTTCABLE:
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I'm. So. Done.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I don't know how to Paws anymore. The design is clearly flawed (which doesn't bother me), and I can't fix those flaws without more people being interested than currently are (which does.) I'm tired of banging my head against it.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> understandably, glowcoil, alexgordon, prophile, inimino, etc, have all moved on, and have better things to do than spend time banging out Paws' design with me; but I failed to do the proper amount of ‘recruiting’ / marketing, and I have nobody to replace them.
* oldskirt is going to go read paws spec now, nothing better to do I guess
<ELLIOTTCABLE> oldskirt: don't bother; it's terrible.
<oldskirt> eeeh?
<devyn> oldskirt: honestly it's not going to make any sense unless you actually try to do it
<ELLIOTTCABLE> yeah.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I made a huge mistake.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I tried to follow the pattern of other specifications, since I didn't know how to write one;
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and I followed **API specifications** like that those for the DOM or CSS; and the point was not to specify an API.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> That means my spec was waaaaay too tightly-coupled, and not written from the perspective it should be.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> A language specification shouldn't specify how the advance() algorithm works. ಠ_ಠ
<ELLIOTTCABLE> anyway.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> … and as much as I've tried to work on Paws on my own for the last few months, now that I'm a little more fired up to program, it's just been a pointless slog.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I can **implement** alone, but I can't design alone.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and Paws isn't interesting enough, or I can't *convey* the interestingness well-enough, to make my situation *less* alone.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I don't know what to do; or more accurately, I don't *want* to do. I'm pretty tired, and just done.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> But I don't know what else to do with myself. /=
<oldskirt> what's the >core idea< behind paws, say on the level of lisp's "everything is a list"?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> oldskirt: making describing asynchronous operations simple via pervasive CPS ++ improving error-handling with language-level transactions ++ distribution
<glowcoil> everything's asynchronous/ultimately defined as a dependency graph
<ELLIOTTCABLE> all on top of the usually-delicious formula of Lua and Lisps: *simple* language, where everything is built on top of a really simple set of core rules.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so: I really wish somebody would convey a language design that I like enough, so I could **actually write some code**, implementing somebody *else's* plans.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I'm in this place where I'm goddamn tired of trying to ‘lead’ a project. If you haven't noticed, that's reduced to the level of sarcastic -didja's every so often.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I want to contribute to something where somebody *else* is responsible for making my contributions continuously meaningful.
<oldskirt> :) I think if there is not a "real problem" being solved by a project, it's really hard to continue
<ELLIOTTCABLE> So. I don't see a lot of reason to keep ‘working’ on Paws. The only meaningful ‘work’ I can do is writing code, and the design is too flawed still for writing-code to be a purposeful undertaking.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> oldskirt: Oh, it's definitely a real problem.
<devyn> ELLIOTTCABLE: honestly your short description/summary of advance() was more helpful I think
<devyn> that's the kind of thing that SHOULD be in there
<ELLIOTTCABLE> at a higher level, without the specifics,
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Paws is Node as a language.
<devyn> well
<devyn> though
<devyn> it's really just implementation-level
<devyn> details
<devyn> so I guess not
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Node tackles something really important: in the modern world, ease of constructing abstractions over *asynchronous* concepts is far more fucking important than performant execution of map().
<devyn> the Paws spec as it is now
<devyn> is basically turning your Paws implementation into words
<devyn> that's all
<devyn> it doesn't really describe Paws
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but it makes the unbelievably huge mistake of tackling that on *top* of a very boring, synchronous, Rut language.
<devyn> it describes how you've done it
<oldskirt> ELLIOTTCABLE: but node streams are actually not really that nice an abstraction
<ELLIOTTCABLE> devyn: yep, I know
<devyn> still, that's somewhat helpful
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so. Paws is an environment in which to build the kinds of things that Node is good at building, but where the environment has been designed from the bottom up to be good at that kind of thing.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> it takes only the *best* things for that purpose from JavaScript (accessible concepts … it's designed to be accessible/familiar to people coming from rutty languages like Ruby and JavaScript itself; … and distribution, an evolution of the JavaScripty benefit of writing the same language on the client and server),
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and then throws everything else away and focuses on a synchronicity.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> anyway.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> devyn: yeah, my problem isn't really the spec.
<devyn> I think I can fix Paws
<devyn> if you give me the authority to do so
<devyn> hehe
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I mean, I can improve upon that. *If* I keep working on Paws, the next version of the spec will definitely be better. I've learned a lot here.
<oldskirt> has somebody tried to approach Paws with more formal things like FRP/CCS?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> It won't be *great*, but it'll be better than this pile of crap.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> oldskirt: I *hate* functional programming.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> The single most important design-goal for me is to be *usable*. Approachable. I want to give 5th grade kids a toolkit to build things.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> fucking Haskell is not that.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Rut-y, boring, disgusting, Object Oriented lulzzlzlzlz, procedural languages are that.
<oldskirt> hm
<oldskirt> I think it all depends on the presentation
<oldskirt> land of lisp is super cool
<ELLIOTTCABLE> disagree.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I love it and all
<oldskirt> so, paws should be a non-functional way of modelling asynchronous things
<oldskirt> by defining dependency trees for values
<oldskirt> which is really declarative programming..
<ELLIOTTCABLE> sorry irl shit happening
<ELLIOTTCABLE> that's kind of what it is.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> will explain later. gotta roll.
<oldskirt> see ya
<ELLIOTTCABLE> (On phone)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> glowcoil: teach oldskirt Paws while I deal with all this crap?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> devyn: and tell me your ideas. will read on-the-go, or later
<glowcoil> all right
<cloudhead> ELLIOTTCABLE:
<cloudhead> re: rust: I think it has a lot of potential, but is not quite ready yet. It places a lot of importance on safety, so if that's not of great importance to you, then you'll have to deal with the extra overhead and it might seem like it's not worth it.
<cloudhead> but it's the only language in its category, which makes it very interesting
<cloudhead> it just needs improvements in its type system
<cloudhead> the standard library is great
<cloudhead> the problem is that by shutting down one category of problems (dangling pointers) it opens a whole new category of problems: borrow rules
<cloudhead> which are a pain to deal with still
<cloudhead> the team behind it is quite competent though, so that gives me hope
<cloudhead> but basically it takes a lot of time to get used to the borrow semantics, and it kind of forces you to think about it at all times
<cloudhead> I'd say that it's especially complicated with recursive or self-referencing data-structures
<vigs> purr: hi
<vigs> purr: hi
<purr> vigs: hi!
<purr> vigs: hi!
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> hi
<purr> ELLIOTTCABLE: hi!
<ELLIOTTCABLE> lonely >:
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<devyn> cloudhead: yep, there's a reason why at least for now I'm basically keeping indices in a vector like [0, 1, 2] and recursively going in instead of having a structure with 'parent' references, at least for now
<devyn> I know how I can do it
<devyn> but it's annoying
<devyn> with weak references to Rc
<devyn> I think
<devyn> is the easiest way
<devyn> maybe there's another?
<devyn> anyway, I would agree, Rust is pretty annoying to write at the moment just because you're pretty much always fighting with object lifetimes
<devyn> but at the same time, it does bring pretty big benefits
<devyn> for safety and performance
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<devyn> you can do some things that would normally be pretty painful to keep safe but are performant
<devyn> in Rust
<devyn> much more easily-safely
<devyn> maybe not that much easier, but definitely easier to keep safe
<devyn> because the compiler is so much smarter
<devyn> ELLIOTTCABLE: also hi
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hi
<purr> ELLIOTTCABLE: hi!
<devyn> don't be lonely
<devyn> <3
<glowcoil> i want to die
<glowcoil> sick
<devyn> :(
<devyn> will G+ ever take off
<devyn> I really like it :(
<devyn> why did they have to go and make something so brilliant when there was no hope
<devyn> glowcoil: this is so cool! the 'G' is Latin of course but it's also kind of the shape of 'g' in Hangul
<devyn> and the rest it Hangul for 'gadina'
<devyn> is*
<ELLIOTTCABLE> devyn: G+? What?
<devyn> ELLIOTTCABLE: Google+
<ELLIOTTCABLE> why on earth would you like that
<ELLIOTTCABLE> terribl
<devyn> the design is so much nicer
<devyn> and Hangouts works so much better than Messenger
<katlogic> bleh; social cancer
<devyn> obvious russian is obvious
<katlogic> is there really any difference between google or facebook or twitter?
<katlogic> (or vkontakte, seznam.cz or baidu for that matter :)
<devyn> facebook has people I care about
<devyn> twitter is... meh
<katlogic> facebook works ok as phonebook
<katlogic> twitter is fun for mass-soceng; but yet has to prove if it is actually useful for anything productive
<katlogic> all in all reddit appears to be the least evil
<devyn> idk, I think what people usually get from twitter I get from reddit
<devyn> I like that format better
<katlogic> at least they treat their users with some semblance of respect
<katlogic> unlike privacy horrors like twitter or fb
<devyn> I'm not really all that concerned with privacy
<katlogic> i dont mean hurr durr nsa
<katlogic> more like advertising
<devyn> no I know
<devyn> but to advertising, you're just another number
<devyn> so whatever
<katlogic> people simply moved from tv escapism to false sense of participation on twitter/fb
<katlogic> (that being said; things like soundcloud and github are vastly more productive as social networks)
<devyn> ehhh yes, they're very productive, but I wouldn't say that purely social networks are not productive
<devyn> they can provide some sense of belonging
<devyn> and psychological benefit I think
<devyn> it doesn't matter if it's all fake
<katlogic> devyn: the dynamics are quite clear
<katlogic> on twitter you get the pokemon effect
<katlogic> on facebook and tumblr hurr durr everyone must liek me; whatever the cost
<katlogic> all in the name of self-validation
<devyn> self-validation is not a bad thing!
<devyn> as long as it's not being sought after destructively
<devyn> then it's beneficial to see that other people want to listen to you
<katlogic> yeah; thats what a fucking im / irc is for
<katlogic> i mean; actually talking to people?
<devyn> people do that too, certainly
<devyn> sometimes that isn't enough
* katlogic is probably just way too old fashioned :)
<devyn> well
<devyn> I'm 17
<devyn> there's probably a bit of a gap
<devyn> between us
<katlogic> at that age i spent like 12 hours a day on irc
<katlogic> nowadays barely 1-3 :)
<devyn> same thing, really
<katlogic> devyn: Well, make no mistake I was quite fond of fb four years back.
<katlogic> But then I started working for social analytics company and just saw first hand how rotten the bussiness really is.
<katlogic> locked down my profile to mere contact list, ditto twatter. those places are scary.
<devyn> I think people have different reactions to it
<devyn> there are things I wouldn't want people I actually know knowing
<devyn> but complete strangers can laugh all they want at how dumb I am
<katlogic> One of our clients was a big HR agency.
<katlogic> We've developed pretty heavy weight datamining stuff for those guys.
<katlogic> Next, big corporations want perma surveilance of their high brass employees if they dont do anything stupid.
<devyn> ah
<devyn> I'm not surprised
<devyn> and it's not the first time I've heard of this kind of thing
<devyn> but to be honest
<devyn> it's going to have to change eventually
<devyn> for now we're so based on saving face and everything
<devyn> I think our culture will have to adapt
<devyn> because it's not healthy at all
<katlogic> devyn: well, when you see people regularly fired or even used in politics, its kinda sickening.
<devyn> yep
<katlogic> mere demographics for marketing was golden
<devyn> but it's only because people actually care
<devyn> why should we care about the private lives of politicians
<devyn> or any famous people
<devyn> why are there sex scandals
<devyn> etc.
<devyn> it shouldn't be a thing
<katlogic> Those are usually PR orchestrated and operate in open.
<devyn> sure
<katlogic> daily tabloid stuff is fun
<devyn> but they do it because they know it gets a response
<devyn> it shouldn't
<katlogic> devyn: This is more about things like - having scraped all profiles in your country for past 6 years.
<katlogic> And selling ability to lookup *anything* particular person said at certain date.
<katlogic> Those pesky permission of facebook and deleted tweets matter not :>
<devyn> sure sure
<devyn> the biggest potential for that is blackmail, for sure
<devyn> I think though
<katlogic> Ironically; not that much
<devyn> then what
<katlogic> At least not directly - the source of those data cant be really relieved; its on the level of wiretaps
<devyn> yeah I know
<devyn> but people can have things that they eventually want to cover up
<katlogic> Luckily it works like; clients screen particular person using this
<katlogic> and if they have something, they just make some random bs only marginally related
<katlogic> devyn: Anyhow I cant see how this can get any better.
<devyn> society caring less, basically
<ELLIOTTCABLE> “twitter is … meh”
<devyn> if we could all decide that shit that happens in people's private life that isn't criminal
<ELLIOTTCABLE> twitter is what linkedin claims to be.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> it's a networking tool.
<devyn> isn't a big deal
<devyn> and shouldn't be reason to fire someone
<devyn> then this would never happen
<ELLIOTTCABLE> in the world a lot of us run in (the Ruby, or JavaScript, or other ‘hipster’ language die in a fire whitequark, world),
<ELLIOTTCABLE> if you don't have N thousand followers on Twitter, you don't matter. /=
<katlogic> ELLIOTTCABLE: problem with twitter is simply http://theoatmeal.com/comics/top_tweets
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and thus, it's the *single* most important of any of those social networks, by a huge margin.
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<devyn> "other 'hipster' language die in a fire whitequark"
<devyn> lol context?
<purr> lol
<devyn> okay ELLIOTTCABLE
<devyn> I've never heard it like that
<devyn> that's actually pretty convincing if true
<katlogic> ELLIOTTCABLE: Ironically of people with several thousand followers its usually only novelty accounts who have anything interesting to say
<katlogic> the more followers = the more it seems to be just rehashed mediocre stuff
<devyn> katlogic: I think that's kind of his point. it's not supposed to be all that interesting, but it's about building a presence
<katlogic> what, by being mediocre?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> oh, there's definitely an upper-bound
<katlogic> or better said, by pandering to group think?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but I'm not speaking in general. Was speaking to devyn.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> sure, if somebody's got *more* than 50k, I'm pretty sure to completely ignore them.
<katlogic> ELLIOTTCABLE: it depends on niche, really
<ELLIOTTCABLE> But the same can be said of less than 100, unless I notice some pretty convincing evidence that they're Too Busy Creating Awesomeness
* katlogic has only 19 followers
<katlogic> all irl friends lol
<purr> lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE> interesting, that's a valid one too
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I'd love to graph this some time
<katlogic> also never tweeted
<katlogic> i wonder how many accounts like that are out there
<katlogic> who use it just as contact list
<ELLIOTTCABLE> if their twitter account is 0-25, then they don't even *use* twitter, or they use it like Facebook, so it's useless metric.
<katlogic> for people who refuse to use fb as contact list
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> although there's more information there: if they Don't Use Twitter, they're probably not relevant to our field. (The ‘hipster programmer’ field.)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so that's a pretty good indication that they write a lot of Java or Haskell, and you can write them off as interesting to you. Hm.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> then there's 25-100, which is “uses Twitter, but is clearly bad at it, and a complete unknown in this field”
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<katlogic> ELLIOTTCABLE: the trick is, you can find hipster programmers with couple dozens of searches on github
<katlogic> as you said, most are simply busy creating awesomeness :)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> anyway friend summons me, I'm off
<ELLIOTTCABLE> nah, disagree
<ELLIOTTCABLE> that's a ****tiny*****, very niche, category.
<katlogic> ah i see
<katlogic> indie vs hipsters
<ELLIOTTCABLE> The vast majority of times I come across somebody with less than a couple hundred followers on Twitter, that somebody has produced nothing of value.
<katlogic> since hipsterdom is basically population of san fracisco
<katlogic> hmm
<ELLIOTTCABLE> all of their programming work has been at their job, they never write informative blog posts, or release open-sours libraries, or … anything else.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> basically, tends to be a non-entity. A programmer who doesn't matter to anybody but their coworkers.
<katlogic> hm; that category probably fits me
<katlogic> i cant really see the appeal of bad advice blogs
<devyn> haha
<katlogic> isnt thats what stackoverflow is for?
<katlogic> (again; neat social network for this particular niche)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ‘hipster’-language open-source contributions (blog posts, tutorials, libraries for Ruby, JavaScript, Erlang; software-developer tooling and infrastructure, websites, etc)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and number of followers on twitter,
<ELLIOTTCABLE> have a high correlation.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Have to go, though, friend freaking out.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> 's a conversation I hate to leave before finishing, 'cuz what I've said so far just makes me sound like a hipster douchebag ಠ_ಠ
<ELLIOTTCABLE> oh well. all's well that ends in flames.
<katlogic> We're all here to study hipsters in detail.
<katlogic> Apparently we east europeans need to learn a lot in that regard :>
<katlogic> (aside from blackhat seo / social spam bots lol)
<purr> lol
<oldskirt_> blackhat seo <3
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<devyn> hahaha
<devyn> blackhat seo
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<devyn> I really want to replace my shitty symbol impl with something that just mallocs strings and compares pointers
<devyn> Rust makes it possible, I think
<devyn> not terribly easy but possible
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<inimino> ELLIOTTCABLE ⋱ Ping.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> o7
<ELLIOTTCABLE> 'sup?
<inimino> Uh, that was coincidental or amazingly fast.
* ELLIOTTCABLE laughs
<inimino> I'm just relaxing.
<devyn> hahaha
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I'm just amazing. ^_^
<ELLIOTTCABLE> amazingly worthless. v_v
<inimino> I read a little of the backscroll.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> god *damnit* I just can't fucking understand Promises/A+ style ‘promises.’
<ELLIOTTCABLE> which is a retarded motherfucking name for them, because they're not goddamn proper futures/promises at all.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> it's just some *really* fucking obtuse callback-unrolling pattern.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ugghhghthgh hatehatehate
<inimino> That's kind of what promises are, right?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I'm starting to hate Noders and their ‘promises’ more than Haskellers and their monads.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> inimino: that's what they're both used for, yes. Promises/A+ are trying to solve the same thing that native futures try and solve. That's not at all to say they're the same thing, or get used the same way, though.
<inimino> Oh, I thought you were comparing them to other JS promise implementations.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> oh, nah.
<devyn> node async code is essentially equivalent to threading... just in a different domain
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I was a Node fan in the days when we (briefly) had *actual futures* in JavaScript. It was insanely nice.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> yep yep
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hence Paws etc etc etc
* ELLIOTTCABLE wanders off
<devyn> yeah
<devyn> inimino: how are you doing? I've met you and yet I still haven't met ELLIOTTCABLE irl (though he tried)
<inimino> devyn ⋱ I'm good, I'm in China.
<inimino> Learning Chinese pretty fast.
<devyn> still? did you come back for a while?
<inimino> Will be fluent this year. Yeah, I go back often but just to visit.
<devyn> that's awesome
<inimino> "Often" being about once a year, I guess.
<inimino> It's an interesting language :D
<devyn> I need to get some better experience with Japanese
<devyn> I've been at the same level for a while now
<devyn> lower end of intermediate, I guess
<inimino> That's a good excuse to travel to Japan, then.
<inimino> I want to visit there.
<devyn> I'm hoping I can next year
<inimino> You should. What will you do there?
<devyn> I have a few friends there to go visit
<devyn> and
<devyn> I don't know, I guess just explore
<devyn> I'm thinking about getting a homestay
<inimino> Yeah, it's a good plan.
<devyn> what drew you to China? I know you've been doing some work there
<devyn> was it just that?
<inimino> no...
<ELLIOTTCABLE> girl? :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ugh I fucking don't know what I'm doing wrong here
<inimino> there's a story
<inimino> ELLIOTTCABLE Yeah.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> for some reason, the top-level done() gets called before all the subject things complete, killing off the requests I've spun off:
<ELLIOTTCABLE> inimino: did *your* move-for-a-girl work out? 'cuz mine didn't. :P
<inimino> ELLIOTTCABLE I don't recommend it.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I moved here half for a girl, and half to find work. Girl didn't work out, never found work.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> lolrite
<purr> lolrite
* ELLIOTTCABLE high-fives inimino
<devyn> I recall you moving for a girl before...
* inimino high-fives ELLIOTTCABLE
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I fuckin' love Chicago, though, which I didn't expect I would.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> So that's cool.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> you like China?
<inimino> Yeah, it's great.
* ELLIOTTCABLE laughs even more
<inimino> I wouldn't be in this city if not for ... y'know.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so, we both moved for a girl and for work … and ended up liking the place and staying despite things not working out?
<inimino> But I'm still happy to be in China.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> that's hilarious.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> devyn: me? wat?
<inimino> haha
<devyn> ELLIOTTCABLE: yeah you
<devyn> ELLIOTTCABLE: I thought that was why you moved out of Alaska
<ELLIOTTCABLE> … lol no
<ELLIOTTCABLE> a girl followed me out of Alaska, though. There's a story there.
<devyn> ah
<devyn> maybe I got confused about that
<devyn> heh
<inimino> I originally came here to visit, maybe the same thing will happen to you in Japan, devyn.
<devyn> lol
<purr> lol
<devyn> I think ELLIOTTCABLE would kill me
<ELLIOTTCABLE> nah
<inimino> why
<devyn> ehhhh
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I'd respect you so much more if you actually lived there, and were still ‘obsessed’ with the culture. :P
<devyn> interesting
<ELLIOTTCABLE> honestly, I really do truly get that you're not obsessed with it.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so, shush.
<devyn> okay
<devyn> :p
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and design a language and ask for my help making it >:
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hashmotherfuckingtag bored.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> /=
<devyn> I'm not the one with the good language ideas
<devyn> best I've done was some kind of weird Scheme-like
<devyn> with lazy evaluation
<devyn> lol
<inimino> language design is ...
<ELLIOTTCABLE> welp just got rate-limited by the Wikipedia API >,> <,< >,>
<devyn> birds are singing. probably sleep time.
<devyn> o/
<ELLIOTTCABLE> didn't help that I got two levels deep, and started getting categories like this:
<ELLIOTTCABLE> http://ell.io/ipy9u
<ELLIOTTCABLE> devyn: pussy.
<inimino> nn devyn
<devyn> ELLIOTTCABLE: <3
<devyn> nice seeing you inimino
<ELLIOTTCABLE> devyn: http://i.ell.io/Lzy9
<devyn> ELLIOTTCABLE: current status?
<devyn> idk, it's like, 3am here
<devyn> lol
<purr> lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE> it's half past five, here.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I know 'cuz my menubar told me so. http://ell.io/iq3XZ?.png
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hrm
<ELLIOTTCABLE> oh gods retina
<ELLIOTTCABLE> whatevs.
<devyn> I like that
<ELLIOTTCABLE> i like that too, that is why we are friends
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so.
<devyn> haha
<devyn> alright
<devyn> see ya
<devyn> o/
<ELLIOTTCABLE> aww
<ELLIOTTCABLE> bai
<ELLIOTTCABLE> tl;dr,u
<ELLIOTTCABLE> bislu
<ELLIOTTCABLE> girhjs
<ELLIOTTCABLE> rrrrrrhjs
<ELLIOTTCABLE> nijirtiotto >,>
<inimino> investment advice
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> I fucking *love* redid.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> redis*.
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<purr\GH> [wikipedi.as] ELLIOTTCABLE pushed 10 new commits to Master: https://github.com/ELLIOTTCABLE/wikipedi.as/compare/efa922f5ba6a...245b07cb9185
<purr\GH> wikipedi.as/Master b4799ee elliottcable: + error-tracking, powered by Sentry
<purr\GH> wikipedi.as/Master e18b8e6 elliottcable: + protecting against missing .sentry
<purr\GH> wikipedi.as/Master 12c94b3 elliottcable: + ignoring node_modules
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hi
<purr> ELLIOTTCABLE: hi!
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hi hi
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hih ihihihi
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ovocfee
<ELLIOTTCABLE> coffee
<ELLIOTTCABLE> in mah butt
<ELLIOTTCABLE> butt-chugging coffee
<ELLIOTTCABLE> #thingsprogrammersreallyactuallydo
* ELLIOTTCABLE twitches
* ELLIOTTCABLE pushes
<purr\GH> [wikipedi.as] ELLIOTTCABLE opened issue #5: More throttling https://github.com/ELLIOTTCABLE/wikipedi.as/issues/5
<ELLIOTTCABLE> twitch twitch FUCK twitch
<ELLIOTTCABLE> seven AM
<ELLIOTTCABLE> 24 minutes of battery left
<ELLIOTTCABLE> don't want to leave the diner
<ELLIOTTCABLE> soembdy deliver me a magsafe
<ELLIOTTCABLE> DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT
<ELLIOTTCABLE> vigs: that sucks.
<vigs> ELLIOTTCABLE: yup
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hi
<purr> ELLIOTTCABLE: hi!
<ELLIOTTCABLE> i'm making a thing
<vigs> hi
<purr> vigs: hi!
<vigs> nice, whatcha making?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I'm *very* caffeinated, and making lots of thing very quickly
<ELLIOTTCABLE> wikipedi.as
<vigs> huh?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> got a neat script to crawl categories on wikipedia, basically finding all of the “disambiguation categories” for a given-language wikipedia
<ELLIOTTCABLE> now, onwards to the actual shortlink-generation par
<ELLIOTTCABLE> part
<vigs> interesting
<ELLIOTTCABLE> http://ell.io/ifSPg
<vigs> whoa
<vigs> that's neat
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Observation: The Spanish don't really seem to go in for nested disambiguation categories; but the Portugese certainly do.
<vigs> I'm working on these bacon strips
<ELLIOTTCABLE> http://ell.io/tt$wikipedi.as/blob/245b07c/sync_disambiguation_categories.js
<ELLIOTTCABLE> FUACK
<ELLIOTTCABLE> server's down ಠ_ಠ
<vigs> welp
<vigs> whose?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> bbl laptop dying too
<ELLIOTTCABLE> mine lol
<purr> lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE> headed home.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> to more coffee, and more code'in.
<vigs> are you not at home at 8AM? .___.
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<vigs> err wait Chicago is like two hours ahead, huh? * 7AM
<ELLIOTTCABLE> lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE> nope, out at a diner
<ELLIOTTCABLE> been hackin' all night
<vigs> holy shit
<vigs> also, Linkin Park? Man, cmon
<vigs> cmaaaaaaaaan
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hm?
<vigs> I saw on Facebook, on the little ticker thing on the side: "Elliott Cable listened to Linkin Park on Spotify"
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ol
<ELLIOTTCABLE> lol*
<purr> lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE> battery: 2%; 0:34 minutes remaining
<ELLIOTTCABLE> worst part is, I *could* productively work for another half-hour …
<vigs> I listen to them when I remember they exist and were my jam in middle school. Oh good god, the angst these 30+ year olds can have.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> … except that goddamn OS X kicks in CPU limiting at 5%, making my laptop COMPLETELY fucking unresponsive.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> in the modern day and age, 5% of a battery is a fucking lot.
<vigs> ELLIOTTCABLE: if being on IRC could be counted as productive? :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE> 5% of a battery designed to last for 14 hours is a huge amount to waste /=
<ELLIOTTCABLE> nope, coding, not iRCing
* ELLIOTTCABLE proves it
<vigs> lol
* vigs slaps purr around a bit with a large trout
* purr r
<vigs> lol
<vigs> :<
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Error: There is no root!
<ELLIOTTCABLE> at Object.connect.use.use.use.use.use.use.use.outgoing.statusCode [as handle] (/Users/ELLIOTTCABLE/Documents/Code/wikipedi.as/index.js:52:13)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> use.use.use.use.use.use.use.use.use.use.use.use.use.use.use.use.use.use.use.use.use.use.use.use.use.use.seriously?.use.use.use.use [as fuckkkk]
<ELLIOTTCABLE> caffienated Elliott is basically twelve.
<vigs> …
<ELLIOTTCABLE> shuttup vigs
<vigs> it's okay I'm like 12 or some shit
<ELLIOTTCABLE> true dat
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<glowcoil> forgot how awful the oatmeal is
<glowcoil> then read the one katlogic posted
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hi all
<ELLIOTTCABLE> glowcoil: ugh, oatmeal
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I fucking love sentry
<ELLIOTTCABLE> http://getsentry.com
<glowcoil> hi ELLIOTTCABLE
<katlogic> glowcoil: Could be worse. Imagine the mayhem if actual stick figures started bashing twitter.
<katlogic> C&H and XKCD ... that would be awful sight.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> OOTS <'3
<ELLIOTTCABLE> been a LONG time since I read a webcomic.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> 'cuz rss died and all that.
<katlogic> died?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> need to go hunt down some of my old favorites and catch up
<glowcoil> i'm way behind on oots
<ELLIOTTCABLE> katlogic: don't worry, nobody who uses rss seems to have noticed; don't feel bad that you didn't, either
<vil> ELLIOTTCABLE: you realize that plenty of sites still have rss
<ELLIOTTCABLE> katlogic: consider this your notification: RSS died a while back <3
<ELLIOTTCABLE> oh, and tdd is dead
<katlogic> hmmm.
<vil> I literally have yet to find a site that I want to subscribe to that doesn't have a feed
<vil> and I only recently started using RSS again
<katlogic> ELLIOTTCABLE: Oh I get it. aaron anherod himself, and atom died with him.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> not talking about a user. talking about as a producer.
<katlogic> now we're just waiting for mozilla to die.
<vil> mozilla :(
<katlogic> So the eradication of truly free social media formats will be finally complete.
<katlogic> And we can all happily live in twitter tranquility ever after.
<vil> walled gardens yay
<vil> soon you will be able to choose between the facebook internet and the google internet
<katlogic> Um, that kinda happened already?
<katlogic> Installed windows 8 recently, kinda scary it linked my FB account with OS account.
<vil> facebook is a lot like 90s AOL, actually
<vil> lol windows 8
<purr> lol
<vil> yeah, I have to sign into my virtual machine with my live account
<vil> which I think I may have deleted
<katlogic> Yup figured that out eventually too, still fun how skype/fb is all interconnected
<katlogic> the second you give it fb creds it leeches all accounts linked to that
* katlogic is strong believer in Microsoft
<ELLIOTTCABLE> katlogic: wat.
<purr> beep.
<katlogic> No matter how bad was the situation, they eventually won.
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<katlogic> I know that past performance is no guarantee of future events
<katlogic> But with jobs dead, google entrapping itself in slow and painful corporate implosion ... There might be still light at the end of the tunnel.
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<vil> google :(
<vil> remember when google was awesome?
<vil> like ten years ago
<vil> I used to want to work there
<katlogic> vil: Its worse than that. Parts of google are still awesome and parts are genuinely shrewd and evil, more than ms, fb and apple combined were ever.
<vil> yep
<vil> I can't trust them, but they still do things that make it impossible to completely hate them
<vil> G+ and the mindset around it poisoned them as a company
<vil> I've been slowly pulling out all of my data, I think I'm only actively using two services now
<vil> just waiting on Fastmail to release CardDAV support to stop using Google for syncing that
<katlogic> G+ is kinda sad story; sure they abused youtube et all; but other than that, it was no worse than what fb/ms were doing.
<vil> and then I have to figure out what to replace Chrome tab syncing with
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ugh
<katlogic> Ie treating social media users as cattle they were :>
<ELLIOTTCABLE> guys, weigh in:
<ELLIOTTCABLE> what's the most intelligent way of resolving a Wikipedia disambiguation to a useful content page?
<vil> katlogic: maybe not G+ in and of itself, but the privacy-destroying mania that spawned it
<ELLIOTTCABLE> at the moment, I'm favoring one of two things:
<ELLIOTTCABLE> A) the first wikilink on the page,
<ELLIOTTCABLE> or B) the first wikilink *in the first list* on the page.
<vil> hmmm
<vil> gimme a good example of one of the pages
<katlogic> ELLIOTTCABLE: simple bayes AI
<vil> that works
<ELLIOTTCABLE> the former fails in some situations, like this:
<ELLIOTTCABLE> where the first word is meta-data or an annotation or something
<katlogic> Anyhow; parsing wikipedia for any meaningful semantic context used to be painful.
<katlogic> ELLIOTTCABLE: Does it still hurt? Are you doing it voluntarily?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> the latter fails in situations like this, where the *primary* answer is before the lists:
<ELLIOTTCABLE> katlogic: yes and yes
<katlogic> so basically; your problem is some disambs have "recommended" default
<katlogic> some do not
<ELLIOTTCABLE> mmm not exactly
<vil> ELLIOTTCABLE: I'd go with the first link that's the first thing in a line
<ELLIOTTCABLE> clearly, my problem is that Wikipedia is inherently unstructured for most things :P
<vil> that should work for almost every page
<ELLIOTTCABLE> vil: doubt it, but sampling now
<katlogic> And developing agents which can succesfuly deal with wikipedia corpus is medium machine learning task.
<katlogic> Ask wolfram or google.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> fuck machine learning.
<vil> that's the best I've got
<vil> most of the pages seem to start with a list
<ELLIOTTCABLE> vil: it's not bad, good idea. I doubt it'll work better, though. like I said, lemme take a gander.
<vil> sure
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ugh here's a problematic one:
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ooo your heuristic works there :P
<vil> yusss
<ELLIOTTCABLE> the goal:
<vil> maybe also factor in if the link contains the name of the page?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> basically, I don't need **the** result for a given disambiguation page. That's literally *by definition* not possible.
<vil> right
<ELLIOTTCABLE> what I need, is **a** meaningful result, that I can then unilaterally define as ‘the result.’
<ELLIOTTCABLE> since the entire purpose of this thing is to make that unilateral decision.
<katlogic> Good luck with that :(
<vil> the name in link method fails for abbreviations
<vil> hmmm
<vil> here's one that my method doesn't work well for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispano
<vil> but there's actually no article for the relevant thing
<vil> so that can't be avoidedf
<katlogic> nah; "first working link in <ul> of disamb" works in that you always get *some* answer
<vil> there are certain disambiguation pages that actually contain the answer
<katlogic> Its just that its not necessarily the most "i'm feeling lucky" one.
<vil> yeah
<katlogic> In fact one has to ask google hivemind what it deems whats "i'm feeling lucky"-worthy
<katlogic> or do custom bayes with click tracking
<vil> alright, gotta go do work
<vil> back later probably
<ELLIOTTCABLE> will probably do a multi-heuristic approach:
<ELLIOTTCABLE> first wikilink that is at the *start* of a line,
<ELLIOTTCABLE> if no matching link anywhere on the page, then first wikilink inside a list,
<ELLIOTTCABLE> if no list, then first wikilink on the page.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> some will inevitably be terrible links
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but basically, if somebody drops a http://wikipedi.as/Hispano link somewhere without first checking that it goes to what they actually *want* to link … that's their problem, not mine. I'll put in a good-faith effort, sure, but …
<ELLIOTTCABLE> the only guarantee I'm providing is that http://wikipedi.as/Hispano will be a **permenant** link. Wherever it goes, once a destination has been decided upon, it will go forever.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> It's up to the person sharing the link to choose to use http://wikipedi.as/Hispanic instead.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> currently listening to: Spotify's “Beat Down Your Morning” radio station. :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE> it's adorable
<katlogic> limp bizkit?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> yep. adorable.
<katlogic> Such hate right in the morning?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> currently, Marilyn Manson.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I don't listen to shit like this. It's an interesting change.
* ELLIOTTCABLE twitches
<ELLIOTTCABLE> “Running High Tempo”
* ELLIOTTCABLE twitches harder
<katlogic> ELLIOTTCABLE: For mornings, https://play.spotify.com/album/596cCa6FfamS1WvGbIyFGl is my all-time favourite
<ELLIOTTCABLE> katlogic: name>
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ?*
<ELLIOTTCABLE> purr should do that. mmm.
<katlogic> ;song rancid - maxwell murder
<katlogic> -song rancid - maxwell murder
<purr> katlogic: “Maxwell Murder” by Rancid: <http://tinysong.com/95vv>
<katlogic> purr: Commercial enough, uh? :>
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hm?
<katlogic> -song choking victim - crack rock steady
<purr> katlogic: “Crack Rock Steady” by Choking Victim: <http://tinysong.com/gkKh>, “Born to Die” by Choking Victim: <http://tinysong.com/HWZw>
<katlogic> damn, all the punks sold out long ago
<vil> I just listen to dubstep and such if I need to get going in a hurry
<vil> it's never too early for bass
<ELLIOTTCABLE> yes it is
<ELLIOTTCABLE> neighbours
<ELLIOTTCABLE> that said … good point, it's a quarter past nine here.
* ELLIOTTCABLE climbs off his stool to reach down and turn his office sub on
<vil> upsides of not living in an apartment
<vil> there's a good 20 feet of outside to our nearest neighbor
<ELLIOTTCABLE> downsides of not living in an apartment:
<ELLIOTTCABLE> not having dat view.
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> ♪ Show Stopper
<purr> ELLIOTTCABLE is listening to “Show Stopper (feat. Yung Joc)”, by Danity Kane
<ELLIOTTCABLE> @ vil
<ELLIOTTCABLE> :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE> dat bass.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> this was my “show off the system” song, before Jazzie got totaled.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> you know, audible-from-inside-a-building-a-city-block-away fun.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> (Not to imply I was *always* That Asshole™. Just when I felt the need to metaphorically enlarge my peen.)
<glowcoil> ELLIOTTCABLE: what was your layout like
<glowcoil> in your old apartment
<ELLIOTTCABLE> glowcoil: wat?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> old? er, this is my first apartment
<ELLIOTTCABLE> confus
<glowcoil> oh ok what is your current layout then
<ELLIOTTCABLE> this was my home in wilmington. (Four-unit townhouse building; laid out horizontally. So nobody above/below, or on three of the four sides.)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> this is my current place.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> in the first one, top right room was my bedroom, and bottom left was my office-space.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> second one, top right is office-space, bottom left is my bedroom, and big area is main room / den / whatever.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> 's current.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so sleepy.
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> I am currently sitting at approximately the location of the “9
<ELLIOTTCABLE> “9'” under the word Bedroom in the top-right. :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE> don't use this information to nuke me kthx
<ELLIOTTCABLE> lotsoflove
<ELLIOTTCABLE> glowcoil: weigh in on the disambiguation-category question an hour ago?
<glowcoil> haha the 9'
<glowcoil> ELLIOTTCABLE: well is it consistently in lists
<glowcoil> ELLIOTTCABLE: also a heuristic might be to ignore parenthesized links
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hrm
<ELLIOTTCABLE> trying to keep complexity as low as I possibly can, too.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but. not a bad idea.
<glowcoil> are they sometimes not in lists
<ELLIOTTCABLE> yep
<glowcoil> ok
<ELLIOTTCABLE> the format's completely unreliable lol
<purr> lol
<glowcoil> ok :p
<ELLIOTTCABLE> try the random-page link I pasted a couple times
<ELLIOTTCABLE> you'll se a large selection of possible formats quickly y:P
<ELLIOTTCABLE> currently writing fraaaaagile-ass code to determine if a page is a disambiguation page or not. :P
<glowcoil> what link
<glowcoil> so far they've all had lists :p
<glowcoil> though some have broken links as the first one
<ELLIOTTCABLE> new solution. vvv
<purr\GH> [wikipedi.as] ELLIOTTCABLE opened issue #6: Custom disambiguation result https://github.com/ELLIOTTCABLE/wikipedi.as/issues/6
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Going to use these algorithms to choose a most-likely option,
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and disambiguation links that are as-of-yet unresolved will *not* redirect immediately to wikipedia.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> instead, I'll generate an interstitial that says something like:
<ELLIOTTCABLE> “You probably want to click here: <big text of presumed article's name>”
<ELLIOTTCABLE> then, below that, a <ul> of *all* the wikilinks from that page, after some text like “This short-URL has not yet been disambiguated. If the above article doesn't make sense from the link you clicked to get here, you may change where it leads by selecting one of the following articles.”
<ELLIOTTCABLE> or idk some shit
<vil> good idea
<ELLIOTTCABLE> then another interstitial, if they *didn't* select the suggested link, that says something like “Are you sure you want to permanently link <wikipedi.as/Article> to the <Fuck Shit Stack> article, for all future visitors? This cannot be undone!”
<vil> so are you going to show this to the link-creator first?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hm?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> there's no way to do that.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> The “link creator” is somebody who typed a URL somewhere. I have no *access* to the person typing the link, as the creator of this link-shortener.
<vil> I missed the first part of this, how does this even work?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I only have access to the first person to actually visit it.
<vil> oh so it's just going to be created when its used
<ELLIOTTCABLE> For *savvy* users, that will also be the creator (i.e. in the ideal case, a person about to use a wikipedi.as link somewhere, will visit it first to double-check that it resolves to what they want it to.)
<vil> right, ok
<ELLIOTTCABLE> (at that point, they would have the option of disambiguating it forever.)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but, that's probably not the majority use-case.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> most people are just going to hit reply to a tweet, and type wikipedi.as/Java
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and expect it to work.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so, have to have some heuristics in the common case of A) creator not checking it, and B) first visitor being an uncaring idiot.
<vil> yeah
<ELLIOTTCABLE> in that vicious situation, I want to make it super-likely that the idiot will disambiguate it to the result of my most-likely algorithm.
<vil> I wish wikipedia just didn't have the /wiki/ bit in their URLs
<ELLIOTTCABLE> lol yep
<purr> lol
<vil> whose idea was that
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but even then you've got the language code, etcetetc
<vil> there are literally no other top-level bits
<vil> I think wikipedia.org/wiki/bluh redirects to en. by default
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ah yeah
<ELLIOTTCABLE> wikipedia.org/bluh would be great.
<vil> yup
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but until then, wikipedi.as/bluh
<ELLIOTTCABLE> :D
<vil> :3
<ELLIOTTCABLE> promises ಠ_ಠ
<glowcoil> ELLIOTTCABLE: what's bad about them
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ugh
<ELLIOTTCABLE> neither the first in a line, nor in a list
<ELLIOTTCABLE> fack.
<glowcoil> oh ew
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<cloudhead> ELLIOTTCABLE: got my messages re: rust?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> haven't been able to devote time to understanding
<ELLIOTTCABLE> trying to fulfill myself by pumping a product out the door right now
<cloudhead> ok
<ELLIOTTCABLE> wikipedi.as needs to fill the hole in my soul that Paws is leaving, before I can sleep
<ELLIOTTCABLE> eyes burning, caffeine twitching, but I'm damned-well going to be serving requests before I lay down ಠ_ಠ
<cloudhead> haha
<cloudhead> what is it
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> er
<ELLIOTTCABLE> what it sounds like, I suppose
<ELLIOTTCABLE> a simple-ass wikipedia short-url service. |=
<cloudhead> a bunch of wikipedias?
<cloudhead> ah
<ELLIOTTCABLE> which is way more complex than it sounds. |=
<ELLIOTTCABLE> mostly because I fucking hate ‘promises.’ which aren't promises. 'cuz node people are dumb. ಠ_ಠ
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ಠ_ಠ promises
<purr> Let it be known that ELLIOTTCABLE disapproves of promises.
<cloudhead> haha
<ELLIOTTCABLE> wikipedi.as/Java -> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java
<cloudhead> hm I see
<cloudhead> I'm stuck
<ELLIOTTCABLE> wikipedi.as/デジタルジレンマ -> ja.wikipedia.org/wikis/デジタルジレンマ
<cloudhead> how will it know which language it's in
<ELLIOTTCABLE> the biggest issue is this:
<ELLIOTTCABLE> wikipedi.as/Developer
<ELLIOTTCABLE> tell me what that resolves to.
<cloudhead> yea
<cloudhead> that's an issue
<ELLIOTTCABLE> disambiguation pages.
<cloudhead> yea
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I refuse to have a throw-down-a-short-url-in-a-conversation service that doesn't link to *actual content*.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> So most of the work involved in this mess is building a system to understand what a “disambiguation page” is, on a wikipedia, and then having a nice user-experience for resolving that problem.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> anyway.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> oh, languages are easy, or rather, I don't care.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Wikimedia actually surveys their own wikis, and decides which ones to include on the front page (http://wikipedia.org/) based on their development and how widely-used they are.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so I steal that ranking, and then the link resolves to the most popular wiki with an actual page by that name.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so, English or Portugese won't steal デジタルジレンマ;
<cloudhead> mmmm cool
<ELLIOTTCABLE> but QUE will still sit on the English wikipedia as Quebec, instead of resolving to the Portugese wikipedia.
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so: “Other communities can use this, but the most popular ones get to use it more.”
<ELLIOTTCABLE> it's lucky, because three of the top five most popular languages use *completely* different character sets, and thus are unlikely to conflict. (Latin, Hangul, and Cyrillic, I suppose?)
<ELLIOTTCABLE> anyway meh
<ELLIOTTCABLE> zero shits
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I just need to make a real thing that does something and exists, after the clusterfuck that is/was/should be Paws
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> ♪ I Want Crazy
<purr> ELLIOTTCABLE is listening to “I Want Crazy”, by Hunter Hayes
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<devyn> ooh
<devyn> I wonder
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<devyn> ♪ ひかりふる
<purr> devyn is listening to “【Kalafina】ひかりふる”, by FISHxCO
<devyn> nice
<devyn> wrong, but nice
<devyn> pretty sure it's by Kalafina and not some guy named FISHxCO
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> hi devyn
<purr\GH> [wikipedi.as] ELLIOTTCABLE pushed 9 new commits to Master: https://github.com/ELLIOTTCABLE/wikipedi.as/compare/245b07cb9185...5da5c9dc53a6
<purr\GH> wikipedi.as/Master 8158b94 elliottcable: + upping the depth. also, removing a debugging snippet.
<purr\GH> wikipedi.as/Master 323cf65 elliottcable: + printing quantities of sync'd categories
<purr\GH> wikipedi.as/Master 155f4b3 elliottcable: + prettifying errors
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<devyn> alexgordon: Mac dev halp pls. I've got a little ruby script I want to bundle up in a native Mac app that can configure it. The ruby script has some gem dependencies and also some native deps (namely, MPD and the stuff that goes along with it)
<devyn> alexgordon: what's the best way to go about that?
<devyn> if you know
<alexgordon> devyn: hi
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<alexgordon> devyn: I don't know much ruby, so maybe you should talk to a ruby person
<alexgordon> can you install gems locally?
<cloudhead> yea bundler does that
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> hello brady
<brady> hello elliott
<ELLIOTTCABLE> what are you brady
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I haven't slept in approximately a decade
<ELLIOTTCABLE> fun face
<brady> i'm a human, raised by elves
<ELLIOTTCABLE> fun fact*
<brady> what happened to your Vancouver trip?
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