meowrobot changed the topic of #elliottcable to: Your topic makes my IRC client cry. 𝕯𝖊𝖓-𝖔𝖋-𝕯𝖊𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊𝖉-𝕯𝖆𝖒𝖘𝖊𝖑𝖘 || #ELLIOTTCABLE is not about ELLIOTTC [string lost in sudden transmission termination]
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<ec>
wow, I want to love slack so, so badly
<ec>
but just UGH
<ec>
maybe Discord can be everything Slack refuses to? )'=
<ec>
incomprehensibly: purr is dead long live purr, theoretically, idk
<ec>
lol permuting tests over possible inputs results in ... a hell of a lot of tests, hella quickly
<alexgordon>
ec: still want to make a programming language community
<ec>
this should be one. *I'm* just not very motivated to talk about other peoples' language-work, right now.
<ec>
my life's pray fucked-up and low-spoon the last year and a half, or so
<ec>
I barely code *at all*, tbh
<ec>
and when I think/interact with Programming™ as a thing, it's to crank out a tiny bit of Paws progress /=
<alexgordon>
yeah
<ec>
there's theoretically other people in here who really do still want to discuss PLT, though? hilight some of the old guard
<ec>
or invite new people :P
<ec>
you're capable of recruiting, you know ;)
<alexgordon>
wouldn't even know where to look
* ec
nods
<alexgordon>
need to find the micahs of tomorrow!
<ec>
lmfao
<ec>
micah )'=
<ec>
so much miss
<ec>
those were some of the best years of my life
<ec>
hand-grilling and all :P
<alexgordon>
:D
<ec>
-didja @ alexgordon
<ec>
-didja didja @ alexgordon
<alexgordon>
WHERE IS OUR BOT
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<ec>
<-> gq nipped out
<ec>
idk alexgordon go fix him
<ec>
like I said: zero spoons for computer crap in my life rn >:
<alexgordon>
I dunno where "he" is
<ec>
tfw ur moderator shits out
<gq>
idk what's happening
<gq>
oh, purr
<alexgordon>
gq: ec lost his spoons
<gq>
thought purr wa sa girl anyway
<gq>
alexgordon: he just got new ones tho!
<gq>
fuckssake ec :(
<ec>
lawl
<ec>
hungry hm bbl
<ec>
come at me delicious filipino breakfast
<alexgordon>
delicious... filipino...
<ec>
put dat fried spam inside meeeeee
<ec>
skirt steak is lyfe
<ec>
longanisa is love
<gq>
'spam'
<gq>
please love yourself
<gq>
the rest, sure, yes
<gq>
but spam no. :<
<ec>
spam is <3
* gq
retreats to mongolia
<ec>
i will here nothing against it
<gq>
i reject your cuisine and substitute this
<gq>
maybe if you could spell 'hear' correctly
<gq>
^_^
<ec>
noep
* alexgordon
retreats to bhutan
<ec>
write some code a slash a paws
<gq>
i have
<gq>
it's a horror
<gq>
i'm very proud of it
<ec>
what when where
<ec>
‘gquaws’
<ec>
‘geequaws’
<ec>
geekooaws?
<gq>
i already told you
<gq>
it's called Feathers
<gq>
and then we had an argument about you saying budgies suck
<alexgordon>
feathers!
<gq>
:P
<ec>
when did I even teach you paws
<gq>
i'll have to rename it tho
<alexgordon>
gq: make a programming language with meeeeee
<gq>
alexgordon: okay ^_^
<alexgordon>
yay
* ec
grins
<gq>
ec: no. go away.
* ec
gets alexgordon and gq a room
<gq>
uh
<gq>
why is the lights dimmed
<gq>
is that a violin
* ec
surprise: its the same room
<gq>
ec: the last time this happened i dated mechtroid for two weeks
<alexgordon>
THAT'S NOW HOW YOU MAKE A PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE
<gq>
:P
<gq>
alexgordon: i heard this is how they made python
<gq>
how they made javascript tho
<gq>
was just /fucked/
<gq>
D:
<ec>
hm
<alexgordon>
one time guido linked to python.com instead of python.org and it was porn
<ec>
Paws was conceived while I was being stood-up for a week or so
<ec>
which probably says a lot
<gq>
lmao alexgordon
<alexgordon>
I like to think he did it intentionally
<gq>
ec: yes.
<ec>
alexgordon: I'm sure he did. I'm so very sure.
<gq>
i actually code better when very stressed
<gq>
or high
<gq>
or both
<gq>
wednesday was very both
<gq>
.-.
<ec>
ur mom is very both
<gq>
stressed yes, high, no
<gq>
lol
<alexgordon>
I still want to make what I wanted to make before, but now I know how to do it
<alexgordon>
want to make a persistent standard library
<gq>
nice
<alexgordon>
slash programming language
<alexgordon>
whereby anybody can add code
<alexgordon>
and it's content addressed by hash
<gq>
ic
<alexgordon>
and automatic testing
<alexgordon>
like quickcheck
<ec>
ahhhh that's the one you're still on?
<ec>
cool :D
<ec>
see I actually liked that idea
<alexgordon>
yeah!
<alexgordon>
all functions are identifiable by their hashes
<ec>
you've heard about my versioned-callsites work, right?
<alexgordon>
I think you told me last time
* ec
nods
<ec>
very similar idea, with the addition of a centralized mapping of ‘name@version’ to hash
<ec>
monotonically-increasing `version`
<alexgordon>
with this there are different hashes for different keys
<alexgordon>
which can then be combined depending on which keys you're interested in
<ec>
rephrase
<alexgordon>
like if you hash the function's type, you then any functions that share a type will share that same hash
<ec>
point is: what do you type at a call site — are you typing hashes all over your code, do you have a local name → hash mapping that's maintained by tooling, or do you have some sort of global name → hash mapping?
<alexgordon>
add :: (Int, Int) -> Int
<alexgordon>
subtract :: (Int, Int) -> Int
<ec>
oh lord typing stuff 🙄
<ec>
okay not my thing and/or over my head
<gq>
lol
<alexgordon>
lmao
<ec>
wait, that immediately makes no sense
<ec>
how could add and subtract share implementation.
<alexgordon>
they _don't_
<alexgordon>
but they have the same signature is all I'm saying
<ec>
I thought this was content-addressed? you're saying it's just signature-addressed?
<alexgordon>
noooo
<ec>
lost >:
<alexgordon>
wait
<alexgordon>
ok I'll start from the begninning
<ec>
lolol k
<ec>
but leaving for food v. soon
<alexgordon>
ec: each function will be a dictionary with different keys
<alexgordon>
e.g. name, interface, implementation, tests
<ec>
ah yes I remember that
<alexgordon>
so you hash each value separately, and then combine those hashes to build a query
<ec>
“and then combine those hashes to build a query”
<ec>
qbc, not qft. :P
<alexgordon>
e.g. H(name)+H(interface) identifies a function by its name and interface
<alexgordon>
or set of functions, possibly
<alexgordon>
point is you need different hashes for different circumstances
<alexgordon>
H(interface)+H(implementation) identifies an implementation of a function
<alexgordon>
but doesn't help you find other implementations of that function
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<incomprehensibly>
ec: I will never understand why (Int, Int) -> Int is opaque to you
<incomprehensibly>
int add(int a, int b)
<incomprehensibly>
int subtract(int a, int b)
<jfhbrook>
What is this? A center for ints??
<gq>
lmao
<ec>
jfhbrook++
<ec>
incomprehensibly: it's not that that's opaque to me
<ec>
although yes a little bit of me is like “okay fine why not express this to programmers the way those programmers have been expressing it for ages”
<ec>
but that bit of me is pretty small — I recognize the gains in flexibility, especially w.r.t. higher-order arguments
<ec>
what I *don't* get is what you *gain* by expressing that
<ec>
people talk about how you express something *just* by its signature, and then not actually talk about the *meat* of it, the implementation
<ec>
add and subtract being perfect examples: they do *wildly different* things, and yet share a signature?
<ec>
any time you share a signature, you're leaving out so much useful information that it feels useless and pointless.
<ec>
*especially* once you get more complex than simple operations on primitives?
<incomprehensibly>
lmao jfhbrook
<gq>
also ec & incomprehensibly
<gq>
fu
<gq>
D:
<incomprehensibly>
ec: well the point is like, if things share a signature but not an implementation they can be compatibly plugged into the same spots
<gq>
re: hunter2
<incomprehensibly>
like it's like a plug schematic for hardware devices or like plumbing pipes measurements and specs
<incomprehensibly>
it deliberately omits implementation details
<incomprehensibly>
and i mean...there are type systems that include lots more implementation details
<incomprehensibly>
Agda gets crazy with it
<incomprehensibly>
but like what you gain is just
<incomprehensibly>
a clarity of thought and expression regarding the *shape* of your program
<incomprehensibly>
and, when you avoid side effects, it tells you a LOT more about your implementation than it does in a side-effect-heavy language
<ec>
jfhbrook: I think that's your first 'channing
<ec>
still immensely proud of this vile monstrosity
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<ec>
alexgordon: I've gotten verification that you're welcome in snek
<ec>
alexgordon: want an invite?
<alexgordon>
ec: sure
<alexgordon>
should I use a fake name? lol
<ec>
idk use whatever you usually use ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<alexgordon>
ec: I'm in!
<pikajude>
is there a term for the use of the words "basically" and "essentially" every 5 seconds
<ec>
grandstanding
<ec>
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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<gq>
pikajude: fedora syndrome?
<gq>
>.>
<gq>
also overdose of youtube atheists
<gq>
^_^
<ec>
OYA
<ec>
better than the OA
<gq>
notta clue what dis means
<gq>
~
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<ec>
there's a weird and pointless Netflix Original named “The OA”
<gq>
oh
<gq>
is it about green lanterns
<ec>
no.
<ec>
what.
<ec>
bear motherfucking mcceary
<ec>
mccreary
<ec>
aerfosojgrthfjygkuhiloj.k/;
<gq>
lmao
<pikajude>
gq: do you think so?
<pikajude>
fedora syndrome?
<gq>
potentially
<pikajude>
what if it's an indian woman saying it
<gq>
depends
<gq>
indian like grew up in india
<gq>
or grew up bilingual
<pikajude>
no, second one
<gq>
because a frequent side effect of learning english as a 2nd language or not a mother tongue is overly formal english
<ec>
I mean, makes a lot of sense to me.
<ec>
The *actual usage* of “basically” is to express that, well, you've been struggling to express yourself, and that you're giving up and half-assing it.
<gq>
yeah.
<ec>
Often, amongst primary-english speakers who've picked up on that usage their entire lives, it's used as a subtle manipulative tactic: “I know a whole lot about this topic, but I'm going to sidestep actually *showing* that, and just *imply* it.”
<ec>
but in any situation where there's not an abundance of familiarity, and abundance of spoons to preform such subtle planning in a conversation, it's more likely to be extremely innocent.
<ec>
↑ my 2¢
<ec>
gq: contribute to my code b/cuz you love me
<gq>
in what fashion would you like me to contribute
<gq>
becuase yes i luff u
<gq>
etc
<ec>
I dunno )'=
<gq>
hm
<ec>
I'm fucking terrible at soliciting or integrating feedback and aid
<pikajude>
no, i'm pretty sure the use of "basically" and "essentially" is just to fill space
<gq>
i'll read over it on github later
<gq>
and thinik of suggestions
<ec>
as evidenced by seven years on Paws.
<pikajude>
i think it's a "i'm thinking about this" word
<pikajude>
it just bothers me
<gq>
pikajude: in usage i generally see it as a nervous ticc
<pikajude>
inordinately
<gq>
tic*
<gq>
pikajude: yeah
<pikajude>
it's bad rhetoric
<ec>
🙄
<gq>
pikajude: yeah but i don't think most people are aware of doing it
<ec>
dirty prescriptionist!
<gq>
hence, nervous verbal tic
<gq>
if it's in text it's one thing, most people are more deliberate in text
<gq>
speech, most people don't have a great filter.
<ec>
my personal verbal tick is “I think”
<gq>
so words like "uh" and "um" and "basically" etc
<ec>
I can't fucking spit out a single sentence without prefixing it with “I think” or “In my experience” or “I believe” or ...
<ec>
like. duh. If <person> is saying it, there's kinda an implied assumption that they're saying it because *they think so*
<pikajude>
i try to be aware of verbal tics
<pikajude>
which usually ends up with me just sitting there in silence for a second at a time
<pikajude>
instead of saying umt
<pikajude>
it's very difficult
<ec>
but I've got this horrid deep-set fear of coming across as if I actually *know* something, or am in any way a professional and/or a competent adult w/ relevant knowledge and opinions
<ec>
this usually only manifests itself out loud / offline, thank god
<pikajude>
that sounds terrible
<ec>
where I don't talk tech *anyway*, so it usually *is* unfounded opinion
<gq>
ec: ...to be fair i think that's a symptom of your childhood/adolesence
<ec>
but it's frustrating/embarrassing as hell at tech conferences
<gq>
i had something similar for a long time
<gq>
because i'd changed so fast as a person
<gq>
in a relatively short time
<gq>
in terms of values, etc
<ec>
“I think — no, I don't think, sorry about that; I *know* and am *asserting*, that <blah> works <blah> way and you should <blah> it.”
<gq>
heh.
<ec>
I'm pretty good at the “I build programming languages, motherfucker, don't argue with me” online, but terrible at it offline. -_-
<pikajude>
you built paws though
<pikajude>
does that really count
* ec
sideeyes pikajude
<ec>
do you *know* Paws
<pikajude>
no but i've heard other people talk about it
<ec>
presumably alexgordon. who doesn't know Paws. 🙄
<ec>
:P
<ec>
omfg bear mccreary?????
<alexgordon>
I don't know paws
<ec>
gq: go listen to bear mccreary right now and share my feeeels
<gq>
link me
<ec>
can't, it's not online anywhere that I know of
<gq>
alexgordon: nobody knows paws, it merely exists in proximity
<gq>
omfg you took it offline
<gq>
ec
<gq>
put it back
<ec>
It's the *only* music that I have imported into Spotify as actual sound files
<ec>
weirdly
<gq>
OH
<pikajude>
"paws" is what your brain does when it tries to understand it
<alexgordon>
it exists in ec
<gq>
i thought you meant paws was offline
<gq>
i was like how tf am i supposed to glance at it and help you help me help you
<gq>
if i can't fucking read it online ec
<ec>
oh lmao
<gq>
D:
<ec>
lord there's never been / at this rate never will be, any place where you can learn about Paws, except by asking me, or one of the handful of people who actually know it
<gq>
pikajude: in 2000 years the word 'paws' will be a leftover word in New Mandrinski for a seizure occurred when sustaining extreme worldview challenges
<ec>
I'm a fair hand at documenting *code*; but documenting *design* always leaves me scrambling and wildly spitting out incoherent masses of confusing mess. )=
<gq>
i'm the opposite
<gq>
my code is a horror that works as designed but makes any traditionally trained coder have fits
<ec>
gq: → #Paws.nuck
<pikajude>
ec: does that mean you're documenting design 99% of the time
<ec>
argh tab fail
<gq>
"you can't do that" "i did it, it worked"
<ec>
gq: → #Paws.Nucleus
<ec>
oh wait
<gq>
"then you SHOULDN'T do that"
<gq>
"but i did, suck it"
<pikajude>
heh, this morning my coworkers decided on using the node http echo server and manually writing an HTTP response parser
<pikajude>
rather than using httpbin and a JSON parser that already exists
<pikajude>
mfw
<jfhbrook>
huh?
<jfhbrook>
idk what httpbin is but, like
<jfhbrook>
writing a response parser?
<jfhbrook>
that sounds annoying
<pikajude>
jfhbrook: so the echo server returns the plaintext version of the request
<gq>
wtf was that for ec
<pikajude>
httpbin returns a bunch of metadata about the request in JSON format
<ec>
I was doing some maintenance lmao
<pikajude>
and i'm like dude, i don't want to write an HTTP parser for this
<ec>
glad I could give you a little slice of nostalgia
<ec>
4 the better deys
<pikajude>
i'll never understand insurance companies
<pikajude>
"coverage: 60% of expenses after $500 deductible"
<pikajude>
actually comes out to 19% of expenses
<pikajude>
because they take 60% of an entirely arbitrary percentage of the actual expenses
<jfhbrook>
yeah, I just got one of my meds rejected by my new insurance
<pikajude>
that's some fucking newspeak
<pikajude>
it's actually "60% of 44% of expenses after $500 deductible"
<jfhbrook>
as you might imagine I'm furious
<pikajude>
oh, so that'd be 26%
<pikajude>
why'd they reject it jfhbrook
<jfhbrook>
because it's expensive
<pikajude>
but they're an insurance company
<jfhbrook>
doesn't matter
<pikajude>
oh
<pikajude>
ok great
<jfhbrook>
in their mind there are other medicines that I could be taking instead
<jfhbrook>
even though I've been on this one for like 3 years
<pikajude>
nice
<jfhbrook>
also scared cause the alternative med has massive weight gain as a side effect
<pikajude>
water retention?
<jfhbrook>
no
<jfhbrook>
regular ol' weight gain
<pikajude>
oh
<pikajude>
how does it do that
<pikajude>
yikes
<jfhbrook>
it's just how most antipsychotics work
<jfhbrook>
I'm taking latuda, the alternative is seroquel
<pikajude>
oh, i see
<jfhbrook>
yeah, side effects of seroquel beyond the basics ("tardive dyskinesia") include "too tired to do anything" and "fat as a whale"
<pikajude>
i love medications
<jfhbrook>
yuuup
<jfhbrook>
tbh I'd totally be okay with testing out seroquel if I wasn't in the middle of fucking changing doctors
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<Strikingwolf>
Hello, found out about the little Paws thing on the snek slack, I'm primarily a mathematician at heart, but I do a lot of Haskell programming. Want to try to contribute to the idea in any way I can (if I can)
<pikajude>
somehow, i lost all my anti anxiety meds
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