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<headius>
Good morning!
<headius>
scottjones: degradation after moving to 8 from 7?
<headius>
that's interesting
<headius>
kares: you've been busy!
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<headius>
hey, builds are mostly green, good on ya folks
<headius>
ok...bug triage day
<enebo>
headius: 1.7.23 for Monday I think so we should verify we are stable there too
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<headius>
yeah
<headius>
enebo: what do you think about starting a 2.3 branch
<headius>
I don't think merging would be a big deal but we could start to get updates in
<enebo>
headius: yeah I guess it is a good first step without making a larger decision
<headius>
right
<enebo>
headius: 9.1.0.0 will be an interesting community reaction
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<enebo>
headius: I am hoping not a negative one
<headius>
mkristian, kares: I see most recent 1.7 build on travis is red, after dependency update...do you know what's wrong?
<headius>
enebo: interesting how?
<headius>
are you concerned about us walking away from 9.0.x?
<enebo>
headius: well I can see some people disliking 2.2 being replaced by 2.3 without maintanance branch
<mkristian>
amazon.com did change something with their ssl configuration
<enebo>
headius: but I think 2.2 -> 2.3 is a minor update semantically
<enebo>
but people are finicky about number changes
<headius>
hmm, jruby-jars, main, and complete failed in latest master build
<enebo>
so that is all I mean about interesting
<headius>
enebo: ah, yeah
<enebo>
mkristian: good work on knocking down some of those windows pathing issues
<mkristian>
headius, it is a test which tries to establish an ssl/tsl connection to https://amazon.com which fails now.
<enebo>
mkristian: if I comment out the waitall on ZombieHandler on windows test_file.rb only have 5F, 1E
<enebo>
mkristian: and 2 of those is MRI not having a working windows platform check for us
<headius>
mkristian: oh, lovely :-P
<mkristian>
enebo, there are one or two patches from master which needs to go back to jruby-1_7 which I did not do yet
<headius>
we've had amazon ssl fail in the past too
<enebo>
mkristian: ok you saw that I would like 1.7.23 for Monday?
<mkristian>
enebo, I did see this remark :)
<mkristian>
windows roundtrip is always bit bigger . . .
<enebo>
mkristian: roundtrip?
<mkristian>
apply patch, linux build, windows VM check, ...
<headius>
mkristian: nirvdrum is getting Appveyor set up for JRuby
<headius>
we should all have access to that as well
<mkristian>
headius, that is great news - as it means I just need to go on the windows VM when things break.
<mkristian>
headius, I put those two amazon tests to pending since it will/would need some fixes on jruby-openssl
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<headius>
mkristian: ok
<headius>
if we can't get to those fixes right away, open an issue
<mkristian>
k
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<mkristian>
headius, I am about to release an maven extension which allows to use rubygems.org directory without the need of any proxy. some work I am made for gradle but never really worked there. but works with maven.
<headius>
asarih: "Mirah作者の @headius が東京に来る！" means "Mirah author headius will visit Tokyo" I assume?
<headius>
that's what I can gather from the kanji anyway
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<headius>
if not for the hiragana it's almost the same in Chinese
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<headius>
kares: I must have forgotten that we map "boolean isFoo" to "foo" as well as "foo?"
<headius>
I agree with the assessment that we should not do so... only "getFoo" should map to "foo"
<headius>
wondering if there's a risk in changing that in a minor update though
<headius>
this is a very odd case
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<enebo>
headius: I am actually surprised this is broken
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<enebo>
headius: at first I thought it was another getCharacter(a)
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<enebo>
headius: my take on this issue is it is a bug..especially if we are processing in order reflection provides them
<headius>
yeah I agree
<headius>
I agree with the reported that we should not do the mapping from isFoo to foo
<enebo>
headius: in that case I also agree but do not like the idea of killing it in a minor version
<headius>
right, I am reluctant too
<headius>
we could fix the reflection ordering though
<enebo>
headius: I also have no idea why it exists but it will work without a getter so it probably still should
<headius>
and perhaps do the isFoo fix in 9.1
<headius>
it seems like it should be extremely rare to have both a getFoo and an isFoo with different return values
<headius>
return types I mean
<enebo>
headius: yeah perhaps. The inertia to change it at all after we fix it for order may not even be worth removing the behavior
<headius>
it was arguable always a bug because we never claimed to turn isFoo to .foo
<headius>
as far as I can remember
<enebo>
headius: yeah I don’t recall and I do not think there is a harm to it existing so long as it never conflicts with bare Java name and getter is not affected
<enebo>
headius: I guess I do not know if anyone depends on it whether we said it would work or not
<enebo>
headius: a lot of this came from Bill Dortch so it is very old and established
<enebo>
headius: also back then I think we fully loaded the planet to decide overrides/short-cuts
<headius>
rtyler: I think the new github layout is like the layout before the last one...they used to have tab-like links rather than sidebar
<headius>
enebo: true, but do you remember us ever making this assertion?
<headius>
it was surprising to me
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<enebo>
headius: I do not recall…we might have but it seems like trying too hard
<enebo>
headius: I certainly think we can deprecate and remove it but I am unsure how long and when that should be
<enebo>
headius: just because it has existed forever
<enebo>
headius: and it is difficult to actually deprecate a generated shortcut :)
<enebo>
headius: without posting it somewhere
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<rtyler>
headius: move down move down move down, move down
<headius>
rtyler: indeed :-)
<rtyler>
according to my coworker I do a very good Mad Hatter when I say "CHANGE PLACES!"
<headius>
hahah
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<headius>
enebo: we could also leave the behavior in place but not make getFoo win
<headius>
er
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<headius>
make getFoo's mapping to foo win
<headius>
if there's any conflict
<enebo>
headius: yeah I think we minimally do that and maximally deprecate remove later
<headius>
I'll have to Dortch the code a bit to figure out how to do that
<rtyler>
headius: so /technically/ the new Jenkins site will use JRuby :P
<rtyler>
\o/
<enebo>
headius: doing the former is less work though :)
<rtyler>
it's a huge pain in the release and lifecycle management
<enebo>
headius: if we need to get all to decide we can just ask in a map too?
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<rtyler>
I think JRuby in Jenkins would present similar problems, either way it's probably about time I revisited our Ruby plugin support which hasn't seen any updates since charles lowell did some work with it
<headius>
JRuby has had a lot of embedding, maven, osgi work since then...dunno if that will help or hurt, but I'd expect it to help
<headius>
we also rewrite most of JRuby's core dependencies to avoid conflicts, and I don't think we depend on nearly as much as Groovy does
* rtyler
nods
<rtyler>
the ruby runtime plugin is up for adoption
<headius>
e.g. commons-collections :-P
<rtyler>
maybe I'll get my hands dirty
* rtyler
eye rolls
<headius>
now I'm really glad we never infected ourselves with all those apache libs
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<rtyler>
commons-collections is not the issue dude </walter>
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<rtyler>
in Jenkins' case we do a gratuitous amount of remoting baloney, that's the real challenge
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<rtyler>
headius: are you folks going to be around on Mon/Tues next week? we're having Hacksgiving for Jenkins and maybe I'll take on some revamping of ruby support in Jenkins for that
<eregon>
it should be relatively trivial and would fix one line of CI :)
<eregon>
headius: oh, you already fixed it apaprently :)
<headius>
eregon: ahh yeah, you missed that while in JP...it broke JRuby all over the place
<headius>
I had to fix it for 9.0.4
<headius>
I didn't notice the issue
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<eregon>
oh, ok, sorry for the mess
<headius>
no, it was my bug
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<eregon>
mmh, so current failures seems unrelated, good, I closed the issue
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<isjaylee>
does jruby support tls? i'm trying to hit an api and ssl_version can't be set to tls1.1/1.2
<isjaylee>
jruby 1.7.10
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<headius>
eregon: review my fix btw
<headius>
just in case
<headius>
isjaylee: that's really old
<headius>
you could try updating jruby-openssl but I'd recommend moving to 9k or at least latest 1.7
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<headius>
I believe there's been some work that gets tls working in jruby-openssl
<eregon>
headius: looks alright and straightforward
<headius>
eregon: thanks
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<isjaylee>
headius: yeah, enterprise clients unwilling to move. i'll look into jruby-openssl
<headius>
isjaylee: ugh, my sympathiez
<headius>
s
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<headius>
enebo: that JEP is pretty cute
<headius>
they'll keep moving more language-level features of Java behind indy
<headius>
so they can bind them differently without modifying javac
<lopex>
intrinsics ?
<enebo>
headius: it is almost like indy used in this way becomes microcode for java bytecode since the emitting of this bytecode will never need to change but JVM releases can
<headius>
I don't think bytecode size will be affected much either... concatenation is already via StringBuilder.append
<headius>
yeah exactly
<headius>
testament to its flexibility
<headius>
oh btw, my JJUG presentation will be on JRuby + Indy and how we're using it, if you want to participate or attend
<headius>
I have to double check the day
<enebo>
oh in Tokyo
<headius>
yeah
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<enebo>
I might attend or not depending on walerie wants to do
<headius>
Taipei = Java conf + Ruby group, Tokyo = Ruby conf + Java group
<enebo>
heh WALERIE
<headius>
luckily only one of those presentations doesn't already exist
<enebo>
well actually…kaigi one does not exist either
<headius>
I expected it to be mostly what we did at RC though
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<headius>
but greatly trimmed
<enebo>
at least it needs to probably knock out some slides
<enebo>
yeah
<headius>
and maybe a little more about 9k release?
<enebo>
yeah don’t know
<headius>
more words in slides and less spoken might help comprehension
<headius>
I dunno
<enebo>
we can perhaps meet once next week before you leave
<enebo>
I can maybe get some help from someone on getting some translation on the slides
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<headius>
yeah that would be great
<headius>
on both counts
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<pipework>
headius: Do you use drip?
<headius>
not usually. no, but I'm also usually rebuilding JRuby between invocations
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<headius>
it wouldn't save me much
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<pipework>
headius: I guess I'm more in the library/application area of things I suppose.
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<headius>
pipework: yeah, are you trying to use drip and having some issues?
<pipework>
headius: No, just wanting to do more jruby work rather than just run jruby against my code I write against MRI and finding that I'd like to not pay startup cost even necessarily in client mode.
<headius>
ahh, so rather than suffering the down side of --dev
<headius>
yeah, drip is the best answer for that right now, but java 9 AOT will hopefully be a better option soon
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<pipework>
headius: Cool, thank you.
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<headius>
enebo: woah...so Java 9 has already moved to byte[] strings
<headius>
that could be a huge opportunity for us
<headius>
imagine a world where we could just take our Ruby strings and arraycopy their contents for Java strings rather than transcoding everything
<headius>
or even use String internally because it won't lose encoding
<lopex>
headius: really ?
<headius>
according to ashipilev, jep-254 is already in 9
<lopex>
headius: I bet there will be ascii only flag :)
<lopex>
oh
<lopex>
headius: how th buffers are going to be stored ?
<enebo>
headius: but which encoding?
<headius>
enebo: sounds like there's two but I haven't looked into it
<headius>
probably utf-8 BE and LE?
<headius>
is that a thing?
<enebo>
utf8 has no endianess does it?
<lopex>
be and le ?
<headius>
ok nevermind
<headius>
UTF-8 and UTF-16 then I suppose
<headius>
so they can keep some binary compatibility with older Java in the latter case
<enebo>
yeah utf-8 will be a huuuge win for Java
<lopex>
the head needs to be first in utf-8
<headius>
lopex: right, I skipped lunch :-)
<lopex>
headius: lolz, are they going to rebackport joni ? :)
<enebo>
I can just see the huge B query bump alone from storing internally as utf-8
<headius>
lopex: I bet that option is on the table :-)
<enebo>
BBBB
<enebo>
DB
<headius>
joni is already in openjdk for nashorn...they can do a new one that's utf-8 now :-)
<lopex>
headius: but how, two classes or two fields for buffers ?
<headius>
enebo: IO perf of all kinds
<lopex>
or that dynamic fields
<headius>
lopex: I have not looked at the impl but shipilev implied String aggregates a "coder" now
<headius>
so it's almost like M17N
<enebo>
I would say this is a cheap win for them but I wonder how many assumptions exist on internal impl format
<headius>
enebo: I'd hope it's all internal assumptions
<headius>
anything outside java.lang can't see String's char[]
<lopex>
oh, encoding flag field
<lopex>
so something like unsafe underneath ?
<enebo>
headius: I guess I meant unanticipated usages of that internal format
<enebo>
headius: although I guess this JEP obviously will trip over any of them but I wonder how many surprises POPED up
<lopex>
enebo: I guess any showstopper would be know this far
<lopex>
*known
<enebo>
lopex: yeah if it is already pushed into 9 proper
<enebo>
lopex: so it would be more a postmortem question about how hard this task was
<lopex>
enebo: I wonder if hisory repeats, .net is next ?
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<lopex>
enebo: yeah, I guess it's the question how leaky are the interfaces
<enebo>
So what doesJNI do?
<Papierkorb>
I want to tinker with java code. So, I have jirb running, and want to load the .class file and toy around. When I change the .java file and compile it into a new .java file, how do I reload it in the jirb session?
<lopex>
transcode ?
<enebo>
It will be utf16-LE in JNI right?
<enebo>
if you actually want the raw data
<lopex>
headius: I wonder if that will give us fast lengths for utf-8
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<headius>
enebo: all uses of String contents had to copy it out anyway
<headius>
including JNI
<enebo>
lopex: headius: so it this is on now then we should see it observably from just hitting a JSON or XML lib (like nokogiri)
<headius>
so worst case is that they'll have to transcode UTF-8 to 16
<enebo>
headius: well yeah that is why I am asking
<headius>
enebo: except that we're forcing everything to char[] and then back to byte[]
<headius>
we need a way to get at the byte[]
<lopex>
using vectorization!
<enebo>
headius: you will still pay a transcode penalty to stay compat for JNI
<lopex>
or not
<enebo>
headius: unless they add a new method
<headius>
right...JNI will probably (want to) gain a UTF-8 string accessor too
<headius>
UTF-8 won
<enebo>
It should have been changed in about 2002 after XML WON!!! :)
<headius>
hah
<lopex>
gimme the typedef for jstring now!
<headius>
XML leading the way
<headius>
but yeah, we really ought to look into this in 9
<enebo>
but seriously UTF-8 became the web encoding everyone used by then
<headius>
we could see some serious JI perf improvements
<enebo>
headius: ah yeah true
<enebo>
headius: I smell a new slide!!!
<headius>
make it now so we don't forget :-)
<enebo>
lopex: and it may have numberz on it
<headius>
you're not doing anything important
<enebo>
heh
<lopex>
enebo: I heart numbers
<headius>
heh, either twitter API is down or I'm tweeting so much they cut me off
<headius>
I hate fixing anything to do with Time
<headius>
it always breaks
<headius>
enebo: did you know about this Brakeman Pro thing?
<headius>
it's a JRubyFX app wrapping Brakeman, a Rails vulnerability scanner
<headius>
and now a commercial product
<enebo>
HEH…it is really odd but isn’t their a video transcoder called brakeman too?
<enebo>
headius: and no I obviously did not know :)
<headius>
enebo: oh yeah, that's why I was confused
<headius>
hmmm, I only see the rails thingy when I search for it
<headius>
but I remember something else too
<enebo>
YES! he is using the DSL :)
<headius>
as opposed to FXML?
<enebo>
well perhaps he is using FXML but I obviously had more vested interesti in the DSL
<enebo>
this first post is showing DSL syntax
<enebo>
now I just need to connect with him to have him help byteit101 maintain it :)
<headius>
no doubt
<headius>
commercial product!
<enebo>
of course you can use both at same time
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<headius2>
boo
<headius2>
testing freenode web client
<enebo>
looks great
<headius2>
looks like poo but I guess it's good enough
<enebo>
headius: maybe consider trying mibbit too
<enebo>
headius: mibbit looks a little nicer
<headius>
mibbit is proprietary too :-P
<enebo>
headius: yeah but when they go bankrupt you only change the browser link
<headius>
basic widget for Mibbit is ad-supported
<headius>
so eff that
<enebo>
ah yeah
<enebo>
I did not try it in a while
<headius>
some day gitter will give up and just be a front-end to IRC
<headius>
or they'll die
<Papierkorb>
Thanks for JRuby. I don't like java, but pry with jruby just made tinkering with java so much better for me.
<headius>
Papierkorb: it's a good thing JRuby is Ruby then! :-)
<headius>
but yeah I know what you mean...so much more fun to play with libs via JRuby
<enebo>
Papierkorb: That has always been a killer feature for me personally. Everytime I am into a new Java thing I am scrripting it in Ruby
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<headius3>
I guess this will do
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<headius>
enebo: what do you think about adding a "Chat" link in top bar and moving Contribute to a link under Community?
<enebo>
headius: sounds better actually
<enebo>
headius: nearly every website has contibute under community
<headius>
yeah
<headius>
and if we had chat on top perhaps more folks would feel comfortable popping in here
<enebo>
maybe
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<headius>
enebo: /chat is up now but I have not modified header
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<headius>
hvae a look and let me know if it seems to work ok
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<frogger>
IT WORKS
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<enebo>
headius: ^
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<headius>
WOO
<headius>
ok
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<Papierkorb>
enebo: this is really a game changer. I work at a company which uses lots of Java, and while I mostly atm work on ruby, having a good tinker tool at hand makes doing Java chores so much more enjoyable
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<enebo>
Papierkorb: nice
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<headius>
yeah cool!
<headius>
glad we can help you get through the day :-)
<Papierkorb>
(Please note that I don't like Java. The JVM seems pretty cool though)
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<Papierkorb>
So, if I already loaded a .java file, is there a way to reload it if it has changed? I'm not expecting that existing instances of the class from that file magically change, just that the global FooBar class from the FooBar.class now points to the newly loaded one
<headius>
Papierkorb: well Java is a compiled language, so there has to be a compilation phase
<headius>
and .classes are generally only loaded once, even by JRuby
<Papierkorb>
headius: yeah. So, there's no out of the box hack with a ClassLoader to force it to magically reload the .class ?
<headius>
hmm
<headius>
no, nothing simple
<headius>
it is theoretically possible since we dynamically load jars and classes but it would take some hacking
<enebo>
const_delete and then load?
<enebo>
if no hard refs it should collect and then the load will work but it probably depends on a full gc?
<headius>
I think it would just pick up the already-loaded class
<headius>
because classloader holds a hard ref internally
<enebo>
but they are one-shot right?
<headius>
you'd have to tell the classloader to forget it or get a new classloader in the stack
<headius>
no
<enebo>
oh…I thought it was
<headius>
java classes are all loaded using a single JRubyClassLoader
<headius>
we only one-shot stuff that's synthetic, like AOT Ruby and adapter classes
<headius>
and JIT
<headius>
Java classes need to be able to see each other so they all need to be at same classloader level
<enebo>
heh…in my mind I was thinking this was something AOT’d. yeah as an aribtrary Java class ignore all that :)
<enebo>
I think I am confused by the notion that he is trying to load a single .class
<headius>
ah, yeah
<thedarkone2>
headius, enebo: JEP 254 Strings are either utf16 or ascii, no utf8
<Papierkorb>
And now I need to think something up to actually use rake as build tool for once to compile java code. oh well.
<headius>
thedarkone2: ok, that's lame
<headius>
because utf8 is ascii
<thedarkone2>
the wanted const time index access
<thedarkone2>
they*
<headius>
they're lame
<enebo>
haha
<headius>
so once you append a unicode character it has to go back and transcode everything?
<thedarkone2>
I guess so :)
<headius>
genius
<thedarkone2>
shipilev said, that their users expect const time
<thedarkone2>
and they can't go back on that
<headius>
so transcode it once they start doing charAt
<headius>
it wouldn't be any worse than trancoding on every read
<thedarkone2>
they are slowly catching up to your string buffer implementation
<thedarkone2>
you have to give them time :)
<headius>
this might still save us some trouble but it doesn't help for actual utf-8 strings :-(
<enebo>
fwiw a majority of oneline data is singl byte ascii
<headius>
if it's possible for us to make a String from our ascii bytes that would probably cover a very large number of cases
<enebo>
headius: most users will see this in the US nearly all the time
<headius>
yeah
<enebo>
and tbh ruby perf with mbc is pretty horrible once you stop being 7bit
<enebo>
it would have been nice to have pushed that problem onto JVM though
<headius>
thedarkone2: if they optimize new String(byte[]) and getBytes() it might still improve perf for us
<haze_>
remember the a la mode
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<enebo>
haze: ;)
<headius>
haze: didn't get to say farewell...you were my escape hatch
<haze>
I went over to the farmer's market/mercado thing yesterday, it was less impressive than I'd hoped
<haze>
just infinite mexican kitschy items for purchase
<haze>
no street taco vendors that I could find
<thedarkone2>
headius: do you hope that new String(byte[]) avoids copy or that it doesn't automaticaly result in utf16?
<headius>
the latter
<headius>
and the same for ascii reads from network, jdbc, and everywhere else
<headius>
as it is now there's a huge amount of transcoding happening in our JI layer and in IO for all of Java