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<jmercouris> how can I access CL-STRING-MATCH::MATCH: "lol"
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<Bike> look at the docs for cl-string-match and see what the provided accessors are
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<jmercouris> Bike: I was hoping I had missed something, okay will do
<pjb> I would type (lspack :cl-string-match t)
<pjb> com.informatimago.common-lisp.interactive.interactive:lspack
<jasom> blargh. Suggestions for debugging compiler macros? Specifically cffi:foreign-alloc appears to be not expanding to a fast path
<pjb> add print expressions.
<Bike> you want to determine whether or not it's expanding?
<pjb> compiler macros are not necessarily used by an implementation.
<Bike> jmercouris: (describe (find-class 'cl-string-match:re-match)) might also be informative.
<pjb> Otherwise, to debug it, you can just call it directly (extrating the body in a normal function).
<pjb> or (documentation 'cl-string-match:re-match 'function)
<jasom> Bike: yes
<Bike> probably i'd just add prints, yeah
<jasom> Bike: well I know it's not expandingas expected because I end up with foreign-alloc on the stac rather than %foreign-alloc
<Bike> so you want to know why?
<Bike> i'd macroexpand things and see if there's a notinline
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<jasom> I found it eventually; the compiler macro was slightly more stupid than I thought
<jasom> specifically if you specify initial contents, then it completely loses all optimizations for the type being constant
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<jasom> I changed my with-foreign-alloc macro to perform the initialization of the memory manually and got a ~1000X speedup
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<Bike> so with constant type and unconstant but specified count you'd want it to expand to `(%foreign-alloc (* ,count ,(foreign-type-size (eval type))))?
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<Bike> for initial contents you'd have to once-only the contents and take the length, i guess.
<Bike> ...and then initialize it.
<jmercouris> Why does find-symbol ALWAYS return nil on a known symbol found in do-symbols?
<jmercouris> Damn, it is case sensitive
<jmercouris> I would have never guessed
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<Xach> case-sensitive, case-folding
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<Ober> huh. 'At the request of John McCarthy, Lisp’s creator, no single language that is a member of the Lisp family is to be intended to be the definitive dialect; that is, none is to be called just “LISP.” '
<k-stz> we do speak of lisp dialects and of languages being part of the lisp family
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<kini> and yet here we are in a channel called #lisp where the topic says "Common Lisp" :)
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<Bike> luckily, we call it "lisp" instead of "LISP"
<devon> One Lisp to rule them all
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<k-stz> another tagged pointer example: (setf *a* (1+ most-positive-fixnum) *b* (1+ most-positive-fixnum)) (eq *a* *b*) => nil, but set *a* and *b* to the same fixnum number then (eq *a* *b*) ==> T ! For sbcl at least, because EQ does pointer comparison. I guess, then, with EQ one can test if a value is represented by an immediate tag pointer
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<Bike> informally, maybe.
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<aeth> There's nothing restricting with-accessors to only be for accessors to CLOS objects, is there? It says undefined, but it should in most if not all implementations just be a trivial symbol-macrolet. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_acce.htm
<Bike> it says "accessor", which is broader than CLOS. i guess.
<Bike> oh, but "slots" also.
<aeth> I'm just wondering if it's also usable for structs
<aeth> Which also have accessors
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<Bike> well, they have slots, so sure
<aeth> yeah, I was wondering that
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<aeth> I'll probably copy the basic symbol-macrolet pattern (and change it slightly) for things that don't necessarily have that slot concept
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<Bike> if an implementation did actually restrict it to standard objects, you could probably decently make a case against that to them
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<aeth> Do generics apply to both standard CLOS objects and struct objects?
<aeth> If they do, that would be a good case against special casing CLOS objects.
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<Bike> er, what?
<Bike> "apply to"?
<aeth> Sorry, I mean, you can do (defmethod meh ((foo foo) x) (values foo x)) and that's separate from (defmethod meh (y x) y) with the former being (FOO T) and the latter being (T T). Also, you can do (class-of (make-foo)) and get a structure-class just like you can do (class-of (make-instance 'bar)) and get a standard-class.
<aeth> So they're definitely instances of a class with slots and accessors.
<Bike> structure objects are certainly instances of a structure class, and structures are described as having slots and accessors. the question is whether with-accessors means the general senses of those terms or the CLOS-specific senses.
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<aeth> I guess my (failed) argument is that defmethod uses the broader sense.
<aeth> Although I don't think that would apply to my particular case, where I want to use it on a vector struct. I could definitely see this potentially failing.
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<Bike> what does defmethod have to do with anything?
<aeth> It's a bad argument because CL is already inconsistent, so arguing that something would keep things simple and consistent wouldn't really be relevant in an interpretation of the specification.
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<pfdietz> The random tester appears to have exhausted itself on sbcl. Ah well, the latest campaign was fun while it lasted. Interesting how bugs can breed over time.
<pfdietz> BTW, I would argue that
<pfdietz> slot is very broadly defined in the CL spec
<pfdietz> "slot n. a component of an object that can store a value."
<pfdietz> "object n. 1. any Lisp datum. ``The function cons creates an object which refers to two other objects.''"
<pfdietz> "accessor n. an operator that performs an access. See reader and writer."
<Zhivago> What is the argument about?
<pfdietz> "access n., [...] 2. n. (of a place) an attempt to access[1] the value of the place."
<pfdietz> Whether WITH-ACCESSORS applies just to standard objects.
<pfdietz> I think (with-accessors ((x car) (y cdr)) (cons 1 2) (values x y)) ==> 1, 2 would be valid.
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<Zhivago> Sounds reasonable to me -- it looks like a convenience for establishing a symbol-macrolet.
<Zhivago> Is there an interesting counter-argument?
<Bike> I thought maybe it could do CLOS-specific optimizations like using more direct slot access when possible, but it seems to pretty specifically invoke the given accessors.
<whoman> hmm what is this error from MOP - forward referenced class? not sure how that is going on
<whoman> nevermind, intuited
<Bike> (defclass foo (bar) ()): if bar is undefined when this is evaluated, it's forward-referenced.
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<loke> pfdietz: When you are making guesses it's always good to check the spec first.
<loke> pfdietz: CLHS has the following to say about WITH-ACCESSORS: “The consequences are undefined if any accessor-name is not the name of an accessor for the instance.”
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<aeth> That adds "instance", which does complicate things a bit.
<loke> aeth: “instance” is defined as: “instance n. 1. a direct instance. 2. a generalized instance. 3. an indirect instance.]
<loke> “direct instance n. (of a class C) an object whose class is C itself, rather than some subclass of C. ``The function make-instance always returns a direct instance of the class which is (or is named by) its first argument.''”
<loke> “generalized instance n. (of a class) an object the class of which is either that class itself, or some subclass of that class. (Because of the correspondence between types and classes, the term ``generalized instance of X'' implies ``object of type X'' and in cases where X is a class (or class name) the reverse is also true. The former terminology emphasizes the view of X as a class while the latter emphasizes the view of X as a type
<loke> specifier.)”
<loke> “indirect instance n. (of a class C1) an object of class C2, where C2 is a subclass of C1. ``An integer is an indirect instance of the class number.''”
<loke> Now here's the fun part...
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<loke> Let's look at the definition of “accessor:
<aeth> It definitely looks like with-accessors should work on any accessor with a reader (foo x) and (setf (foo x) new-object) writer, e.g. cxr
<loke> “accessor n. an operator that performs an access. See reader and writer.”
<aeth> The HyperSpec states all the cxr things are accessors. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_car_c.htm
<aeth> with-accessors won't work when the writer isn't a setf writer, will it?
<aeth> there wouldn't be any way to feed in a new-value
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<loke> aeth: Yes. There is a non-normative note in the documenation for WITH-ACCESSORS suggesting the typical implementation is simply a MACROLET
<loke> I mean SYMBOL-MACROLET
<aeth> accessors are definitely something that the spec gets right imo. reader (foo ...) and writer (setf (foo ...) new-object) symmetry, that can apply to just about anything.
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<aeth> Isn't everything an instance since everything has a class, and so with-accessors should really just work on everything with a conventional accessor pair?
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<loke> aeth: That's the thing. That reading is certainly a valid one... Here's the documentation for "accessor":
<loke> “accessor n. an operator that performs an access. See reader and writer.”
<loke> “access n., v.t. 1. v.t. (a place, or array) to read[1] or write[1] the value of the place or an element of the array. 2. n. (of a place) an attempt to access[1] the value of the place.”
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<Bike> just do it for structs and see if any implementation breaks it.
<aeth> It seems natural that with-accessors is an abstraction over conventional/idiomatic CL accessors. (And that's probably one reason why it's better than with-slots, it's abstract.)
<aeth> Bike: After this conversation, I'm tempted to do it over anything that has accessors, not just structs.
<loke> Bike: Sounds unlikely. Why would any implementation deviate from the standard SYMBOL-MACROLET implementation?
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<Bike> of course it's unlikely, that's why i'm saying to do it
<Bike> throw caution to the fucking wind and do a programming thing
<Bike> live on the edge
<aeth> with-accessors on anything with well-defined accessors (i.e. a matching setf foo for any given foo) seems reasonable
* loke can pretty much guarantee that it'll work on all implementations, regardless of whether it's allowed by the spec or not.
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<aeth> The implementation is trivial (although SBCL, CCL, and ECL all have slight differences in the macroexpand-1, try it!), so there probably could be an implementation-specific workaround on implementations that don't use this interpretation.
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<loke> But, if the original intent of WITH-ACCESSORS was to be allowed for anything, what is the meaning of this statement: “The consequences are undefined if any accessor-name is not the name of an accessor for the instance.”
<aeth> yes
<loke> I guess they are referring to something with (WITH-ACCESSORS ((foo print)) x (foo))
<loke> That would kinda work, I guess.
<loke> (minus the extra parens around foo
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<aeth> Two possibilities. (1) they were opening the door for optimizations or (2) they were opening the door for the trivial implementation, which technically makes things work for non-accessors like print.
<aeth> Technically, #2 is a bit of #1, too, since checking would be slower
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<aeth> I really like the CL concept of accessors. Compared across languages, even. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutator_method
<aeth> it doesn't look like anything really comes close
<aeth> It seems like almost every language prefers boilerplate
<Zhivago> Alternately you can see it as other languages preferring not to pollute their function namespace.
<Zhivago> Since given a.b or whatever you can always produce foo_b(a).
<whoman> accessors to what? lisp is just lists ..
<Zhivago> Of course, then you need some boiler plate to make something like foo_b(a) = c work, or you need another explicit function. like foo_b_set(a, b).
<Zhivago> whoman: Are you delusional or just stupid?
<Zhivago> whoman: What does make-hash-table produce?
<Zhivago> It would be nice if CL had first class places, though.
<Bike> meaning manipulable objects instead of just macrology?
<Zhivago> Yeah, something you could pass around. You can always wrap a use of a place in a lambda, but then you need one for each kind of use.
<devon> Some lists have first-class locatives.
<devon> lists/lisps
<Zhivago> Although I guess you could do that and then use that object as a place which forwarded.
<aeth> whoman: (defun lists-have-accessors-too (list) (flet ((caddddr (x) (cadddr (cdr x)))) (with-accessors ((first car) (second cadr) (third caddr) (fourth cadddr) (fifth caddddr)) list (values first second third fourth fifth))))
<Zhivago> Devon: Yeah, I'm not sure why they went out of fashion -- but I suspect it's because they didn't support place semantics.
<aeth> Zhivago: You indirectly raise a good question. Does the spec allow implementing everything (including hash tables) as lists? (Not like anyone should try to do this, though!)
<aeth> Zhivago: Can you provide a code example of what you'd want?
<Zhivago> No, since then class-of or type-of would not produce the expected results.
<Zhivago> You would need at least a class carrying header to wrap the list.
<aeth> Zhivago: or just make the car a symbol that means that it's a hash-table. Any list without a type symbol in the car is a regular list
<Zhivago> That would be one way to implement a class carrying header.
<Zhivago> But that cons wouldn't be a cons anymore.
<aeth> true
<Zhivago> Sometimes I wonder if starting with dictionaries and then adding schema to them would have produced a better outcome.
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<Zhivago> To be honest, I'm not sure that first class places matter, really.
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<Zhivago> They're probably just one of those things that sounds like a good idea until you really think about it.
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<Zhivago> A bit like transparent persistence and not having processes.
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<emaczen> morning beach
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* beach is watching the video of McCLIM made by jackdaniel.
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<pfdietz> One can defined a pseudo-pointer class in CL. It would hold reader and writer functions for some actual place. Define DEREF and (SETF DEREF) methods for it.
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<dmiles> "class-of or type-of would not produce the expected results." I am litterally stuffing classof and typeof ijn the objects properties
<dmiles> so i can use structs/lists/pldicts/hastables as the objects
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<dmiles> (get-opv a-similar-point) ==> ((typeof . POINT)(classof . claz_u_point)(ref . #<claz_u_point 5>)(sname . "znst_5")(instance . claz_u_point)(x . 3)(y . -4)(z . 12) )
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<dmiles> (get-opv 'sym) ==> ((classof . claz_symbol)(name . "SYM")(PACKAGE . #<PACKAGE COMMON-LISP-USER>)(typeof . SYMBOL) )
<dmiles> my symbols are just standard objects
<dmiles> well everyhitng but conses are
<raynold> ahh it's a wonderful day
<Zhivago> dmiles: Sure -- you can do that.
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<Zhivago> Although it is incredibly inefficient.
<Zhivago> The point being that if you re-use something but have class-of report something else, then it no-longer has the semantics of what you were re-using.
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<dmiles> well i wanted to proably switch out the underlying structure as i get more experience
<Zhivago> A fine goal.
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<lanu> part
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<dmiles> i started out using asserted relations (typically that is the fastest) ... but it was messing with my setcdrs
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<dmiles> now i on first setf move the property onto the dictionary .. so symbol-plist and values are on the dictionary
<dmiles> typeof/clasof are still in the soops:o_p_v/3 asserta database
<Zhivago> DOn't you define suitably abstracted operators on this data structure?
<dmiles> yes.. sinc ei am abdtracted i dont actualyl think about the real storage
<Zhivago> Good :)
<dmiles> i just use: get_opv/3 set_opv/3
<borodust> Xach: i've updated the dist, trivial-gamekit should work on retina too
<dmiles> (i just mentioning it because i wonder if i'd be happy ever putitng oeverthing on one datastructure)
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<dmiles> oh where i was going is that i have sometimes a tree of storage pacakge[string]->symbol->value->classof
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<dmiles> and it is tempting to let them tree up
<dmiles> so i can feel like i have real places
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<dmiles> the language does at least come with a locative :P https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/blob/master/prolog/wam_cl/typeof.pl#L21
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<beach> jackdaniel: Very nice video! Thanks!
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<dmiles> has anyone done a setf expander that is based solely on gettign first class locatives?
<dmiles> i am temped to continue doing it traditionally first with (get-setf-expander ..) returning a function call.. but would be nice so see something else
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<dmiles> in prolog a variable, is insufficent was a locative i have to use '$LOC'(TermPtr,Offset) % a bit like C.. but at leas the GC moves my pointers
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<dmiles> so it looks like: TermPtr = cons(a,b), L = $LOC'(TermPtr,2), set_locative(L,b2), to 'replcd
<jackdaniel> beach: thanks, my first video tutorial
<beach> Congratulations!
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<dmiles> oh cool! .. Daniel :)
<dmiles> we like like twins.. left handed ahskenazi russian jews in family tree i can see
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<jackdaniel> I'm sorry, I don't understand the last sentence
<jackdaniel> could you elaborate?
<beach> jackdaniel: He is making statements about your ancestors and your dexterity, as compared to his own.
<jackdaniel> ah, you mean we look similar? heh
<jackdaniel> in fact, I'm both handed, but I was left handed when I was a little
* dmiles was watching video.. looked back at IRC just now
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<dmiles> There is a very strong genetic line that has moved in and accrossed europe over the centuries.. many of the people ended up in russia (my fammily did)
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<dmiles> The head of Cycorp and many many programmers that have been hired at cycorp have ended up comming from this genetic line
<Zhivago> And you ask why people talk about Jewish conspiracies.
<dmiles> most of us are either left handed or close to it.. actually a few yearts ago at a dinner 25 out of 28 of us relize we are all left handed
<jackdaniel> heh, ftr I'm not Jewish, but I can join the conspiracy ;)
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<Zhivago> Of course, there is the high comorbidity rate with that group, so ymmv.
* jackdaniel checks comorbidity word in his dictionary
<dmiles> yeah.. i was trying to confirm it was "a thing" i could point jackdaniel's to and ran acrossed the high mobidity rate :(
<jackdaniel> so many hard words
<jackdaniel> mobidity is not found in my dictionary
<Zhivago> comorbidity and morbidity are different.
<dmiles> ah
<jackdaniel> but I think we are getting offtopic
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<jackdaniel> Xach: regarding top 100 downloaded projects in Quicklisp: you count raw downloads, or things which are quickloaded? For instance if I type (ql:quickload 'foo) and foo depends on alexandria (so both are downloaded) – is the counter increased for both foo and alexandria?
<jackdaniel> I would find very useful count for top-level system downloads too
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<aeth> This... is incredible really. I can copy the basic concept of with-accessors (let above a symbol-macrolet above the body) and abstract everything, with the only issue being that M-. doesn't like it, i.e. M-. looks for the definition of the symbol and fails to find it because the symbol is just a shorthand for some accessor-like form.
<aeth> (M-. also fails in with-accessors if you use a name other than the accessor name)
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<borodust> Xach: also, please, check if this example blob works for you https://goo.gl/wH6Fok
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<jdz> jackdaniel: pretty sure the stats count raw downloads.
<jdz> (Pretty sure nobody quickloads rfc2388 without hunchentoot.)
<jdz> Pretty sure I use pretty sure too much.
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<loke> jdz: I'm pretty sure that is not the case.
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<jackdaniel> sure, pretty thanks!
<jdz> Then we'll have to wait for what Xach has to say.
<jackdaniel> it is said in the post on planet lisp "raw downloads"
<XachX> Raw downloads not quick loads
<jackdaniel> I'm more curious if he is interested in adding another stat
<jackdaniel> oh, you're here
<XachX> It is 3am. Shhhh.
<jackdaniel> heheh
<XachX> Zzz
<jackdaniel> sleep well
<hajovonta> hi all
<beach> Hello hajovonta.
<jdz> Now I'm pretty sure loke was not talking about quicklisp.
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<loke> jdz: I'm pretty sure I was referring to your use of pretty sure.
* jdz is now 99.8% sure all outstanding issues on #lisp are settled.
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<whoman> 99.8% is pretty sure ?
<aeth> All that's left to settle is how many ;s to put at a comment that serves as a section title within a long file.
<loke> aeth: three
<aeth> so four ;s only go at the top of a file?
<hajovonta> please help: I have an error starting slime:
<jdz> whoman: nah, pretty sure is like 92.3%.
<hajovonta> fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 11749(tid 140737353733888):
<hajovonta> can't find core file at ~/sbcl/lib/sbcl/sbcl.core
<hajovonta> but the core file is there.
<whoman> =P
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<whoman> i have a feeling that some people have gone crazy or are going crazy with lisp. shoehorning it into how they are thinking, rather than kind of meeting half way. there is a secret whispering in the clay to be sculpted into this or that shape ... just got to listen... and get a decent keyboard.. =)
<jdz> 99.8% is more like "almost certain".
<whoman> hmm i feel that almost is nearer 90%
<whoman> quite sure feels around 95%, fairly is lower than 90% say 80-85%
<jdz> But that's "almost sure", not "almost certain", right?
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<whoman> i wonder how the Matrix would benefit from our human intervention of giving values to numbers. especially them pretty pesky pickly adjectivies
<whoman> ahh yes. adjusting
<whoman> literally pushes past 100% these days
<jdz> More so if "like, whoa!" is added.
<whoman> if we cannot work out our problems linguistically aka symbolically, i strongly feel certainly confident that surely we are getting too deep into the self-projected communal holograms
<whoman> but like its like she said and im like whoa
<whoman> haha oh !
<whoman> 'wow, are you serious'
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<whoman> lists/trees of words/symbols, which mean different at different times and contexts; eval, compile, read, write, etc... this lisp thing should be rationed to the common folk. digital acid over here
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<whoman> people be getting all stuck up in that there them ideas and ideals of real words meaning real things. its good to experiment. programmers are magicians =) the current alchemy is to.. something human something computer something earth something science... well breaking habits. we should give ourselves more credit - look at all of this stuff we made !! holy hell what potential is life! ahem i hope everyone is inspired to their magnum opus
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<shrdlu68> Hello, is anyone aware of a library that has functionality for generating combinations with repitions?
<shrdlu68> That is, generating combinations from '(a b c) of length 2 should generate '(c c)
<shrdlu68> And either '(a b) or '(b a), but not both.
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<mrSpec> shrdlu68: I don't. But you know that you can use remove-duplicates with :test #'set-equal? ;)
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<alandipert> does anyone have ideas about how i could further speed the ev2! function? https://github.com/alandipert/advent-of-code-2017/blob/master/day05.lisp
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<alandipert> i tried inlining it in the run function, but that didn't seem to make any difference, so stuck with funcall
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<hajovonta> mrSpec: that would not remove one of '(a b) and '(b a) because these are not identical.
<hajovonta> or ... ?
<XachX> hajovonta: try without ~?
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<aeth> alandipert: That's because input is a global variable, and those are going to be slow because they're not lexical (or at least, the portable ones aren't)
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<aeth> They should always be surrounded by *s so you know they're special, i.e. *input*
<alandipert> aeth hm, but on line 33 i copy-seq it to a local
<hajovonta> XachX: even with custom test function, it's probably better to come up with a smart generation algorithm from a performance viewpoint
<mrSpec> hajovonta: (set-equal '(a b) '(b a)) → t
<mrSpec> ,clhs set-equal
<hajovonta> mrSpec: didn't know that, thanks
<aeth> alandipert: why so many copies? You copy it twice, once when you convert it into a vector and then again with copy-seq
<alandipert> aeth because ev2! mutates it.. i'm not sure the copies dominate since they're not in the hot loop (lines 36-37)
* alandipert just tested not copying at all, runtime is same
<aeth> and you tried inlining the functions already? hmm...
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<aeth> alandipert: what's the input? is part of the page not visible without logging in?
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<aeth> also, if you're sure they're always fixnum, try benchmarking with '(simple-array fixnum (*)) instead of 'simple-vector
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<alandipert> aeth the input is user-dependent, but mine is here if you want to try it: https://gist.github.com/alandipert/63e4502350d90d7b251e99cac40a3895
<alandipert> aeth i think that might have shaved off 10-20 ms, hard to say tho
<alandipert> the time to beat is 130 ms.. that's how fast a similar and type-hinted clojure algorithm does it on my machine. currently my lisp goes to ~230ms
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<beach> alandipert: Do you have to use simple vectors? It might be more efficient to use specialized vectors.
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<aeth> If you want to make a higher-order-function faster, you can usually do that by converting it into a macro, afaik.
<aeth> I just more than halved it by turning it into a macro, on my machine
<alandipert> beach i don't think they have to be simple, i'm ignorant of this swath of CL :-) i went with simple because it seemed like.. the simplest
<beach> alandipert: Well, in Common Lisp a simple vector has element type T. It might be better to use a vector type that stores numbers.
<aeth> All I did was replaced the funcall with (progn ,@body) and now I define a function instead of passing in a higher order function. Real code should also use gensyms in macros.
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<aeth> Giving it a fixnum type doesn't make a big performance difference because fixnums are already unboxed (unlike e.g. double-float), fixnums will fit in a vector already, and it's being told they're fixnums with (the fixnum ...)
<aeth> Even if it made no difference, though, '(simple-array fixnum (*)) in your coerce and removing the (the fixnum ...) feels more idiomatic
<jdz> alandipert: What's the expected result?
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<alandipert> jdz 23948711
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<jdz> I get 318883 :?
<aeth> that's the first one
<aeth> alandipert: Make sure that the length is known. That's the big thing for vectors. e.g. (declare (optimize (speed 3)) ((simple-array fixnum (1000)) code)) And use a macro instead of a higher order function, i.e. put the loop in a macro, and make the part that differs the body.
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<jdz> aeth: Is there another input file?
<aeth> I'm just using the same input file for both
<jdz> For both what?
<jdz> OK, what's part 2?
<jdz> I'm reading the original task and there's only part 1?
<alandipert> jdz you have to log in and solve part 1 in order to see part 2
<jdz> Oh.
<alandipert> i can post it tho, one sec
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<jdz> alandipert: OK, thanks!
<alandipert> aeth i can see how inlining via macro is faster, i was kind of hoping there would be a way to parameterize via defun name at least. and use (declare (inline ...))
<alandipert> aeth https://gist.github.com/alandipert/a15a83cb49d9cabf95781b7d987bbcab is my attempt at that, no faster though
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<aeth> SBCL doesn't trust you, btw. It doesn't believe that it's not a fixnum because you're doing addition, afaik. When I disassemble, I see three object-not-fixnum-errors. If the numbers have a tighter bound than fixnum, you can save some checks each iteration of the loop (or at least, some of them might be in the loop)
<aeth> Not sure which CL you're using. Maybe you use one that trusts the.
<aeth> Or declare.
<alandipert> i'm on sbcl
<aeth> no, don't make the macro like that.
<aeth> I mean, replace (evnfun code ptr) with (progn ,@body)
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<aeth> i.e. instead of calling a function, you're inlining the whole thing into the loop iteration manually, with the macro.
<alandipert> im familiar with the technique, but was hoping to avoid its downsides
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<aeth> SBCL cheats with its built-in higher order functions, and even then the cheating is a leaky abstraction and you can easily ruin performance.
<aeth> Very high performance CL does not use higher order functions.
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<alandipert> sure... or we just write C
<aeth> If prefer using C's macro systme
<aeth> s/If prefer/If you/
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<aeth> bah
<jdz> alandipert: what CPU does the 130ms requirement for?
<aeth> If you prefer using C's macro system.
<jdz> s/does/is
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<alandipert> jdz its this clojure code, on java 9/macos, on i7 skylake https://github.com/bhauman/advent-of-clojure-2016/blob/master/src/advent_of_clojure_2017/day05.clj#L50-L59
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<aeth> And afaik you can meet the desired performance if you replace (evfun code ptr) with (progn ,@body) and redefine the functions to use this macro instead of to be passed in. Additionally, declaring it as a (simple-array fixnum (1000)) instead of * (unless it's going to be of a variable size)
<aeth> In fact, just the length declaration might do it
<aeth> Unknown length on a vector is expensive
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<aeth> You get a big, scary "SB-KERNEL:HAIRY-DATA-VECTOR-SET/CHECK-BOUNDS" in the disassembly without a known length, and it's every iteration of the loop because it's in ev2!
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<aeth> in fact, it shows up twice.
<jdz> alandipert: a straight-forward version I tried: http://lpaste.net/360573
<schweers> aeth: are simple-arrays of unknown size really that big a deal?
<jdz> My CPU is mobile i7-7500.
<alandipert> jdz cool, i'll give that a look later. off to bed for now, thanks all for the help!
<aeth> schweers: calling that function to check bounds 2000 times might have an impact in the performance if you're trying to minimize it
<aeth> A lot of the time, it's not important. This is something that's trying to be made as fast as possible afaik.
<schweers> It shouldn’t cause many memory operations though, right?
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<aeth> I think that contains everything that's relevant
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<aeth> jdz's version gives me a consistent 0.69, which is twice as fast as the macro-ified version of ev2+run. Giving it a known length of 1000 speeds it up to about 0.64. More than I thought, but fairly insignificant. It gets rid of several bounds checks, but the bounds checks probably aren't being called every iteration anymore.
<jdz> Compiling with (safety 0) almost halves the time, but nobody should ever do that.
<aeth> The macro version probably gave such a dramatic improvement because the compiler didn't have to bounds check as often.
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<aeth> jdz: That's the path to the Dark Side
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* jdz could not agree more!
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<jdz> I wish one of the exercises will use 65-bit (or bigger) integers!
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<aeth> known size is 2 bounds checks and 3 fixnum checks; unknown size adds 2 bounds checks; safety probably removes all the checks because the algorithm is flawless
<aeth> s/safety/safety 0/
<aeth> jdz: Project Euler does, sometimes.
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<alandipert> jdz your code is awesome, thanks for sharing. i like not using fancy loop stuff. ok now to bed for real :-)
<aeth> You might be able to remove some more checks if you're clever, without resorting to safety 0. That can get you some of the way there.
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<aeth> e.g. maybe they're 32 bit signed integers? Then maybe the compiler can assume fixnum longer.
<aeth> you'd slowly lose clarity, though
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<schweers> aeth: your measurements pretty much confirm what I suspected: bounds checks are not that expensive, since running times of programs on modern hardware are pretty much limited by the speed of memory operations.
<aeth> Individually, the checks are pretty cheap. Collectively, they apparently add up. I don't get half the time, though. I get 0.04 seconds in the safety 0 version. And half the checks that are being removed are checks for fixnum.
<jdz> Yes, "almost halves".
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<schweers> you can go from 0.69s to 0.04s? not bad, that on the other hand is not what I expected
<jdz> Oh, I misread the number.
<aeth> no
<aeth> I mistyped a number
<aeth> .064
<aeth> Not 0.64
<aeth> I think I need to sleep.
<schweers> oh, ok
<schweers> thanks for clarifying
<aeth> Also, that's why you should always get in the habit of putting the leading zero! 00.64 would have been obvious
<aeth> although I think I just was misreading it or something
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<aeth> Here's the overhead, btw: (let ((foo #(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7))) (time (dotimes (i 10000000000) (sb-kernel:hairy-data-vector-set/check-bounds foo 4 42))))
<aeth> Or if that's not good enough: (let ((foo (coerce (loop for i from 0 to 10000 collect i) 'simple-vector))) (time (dotimes (i 10000000000) (sb-kernel:hairy-data-vector-set/check-bounds foo 400 42))))
<aeth> In order for it to matter, your data has to be huge or you have to have a very strict time constraint (maybe 200 frames per second?)
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<aeth> nevermind, that doesn't do what I think it does.
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<shrdlu68> When working with arrays of integers less than 128, is there a performance benefit in using :element-type '(unsigned-byte 7) rather than '(unsigned-byte 8) ?
<schweers> shrdlu68: No, as the underlying hardware is probably byte-aligned
<schweers> i.e. there is no machine instruction to fetch or address a 7-bit region of memory
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<shrdlu68> schweers: So implementations probably use octets in any case?
<schweers> I guess
<schweers> according to the CMUCL manual there are (or were?) even implementations which used even worse representations in such cases
<schweers> but CMUCL and SBCL should just use octets
<shrdlu68> I see, thanks!
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<schweers> the same should be true of '(unsigned-byte 15) etc
<schweers> bit-vectors being a notable exception
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<jmercouris> I have the following code https://gist.github.com/78247fc1030e208f023c50323d46b3e8
<jmercouris> My compiler complains that help-contents is unused lexical variable
<schweers> although .. now that I think of it, it’s not /really/ an exception
<jmercouris> YET! I am using it on line 4
<jmercouris> Additionally, the contents of "help-contents" is not actually being used within ps:ps somehow
<schweers> weird
<schweers> what is ps:ps?
<schweers> a function? inlined? a macro?
<schweers> if it’s a macro, and doesn’t use its argument ... on the other hand the SETF expression does use it anyway. I’m also confused
<Zhivago> Perhaps it is just a symbol?
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<mercourisj> sorry, my internet keeps cutting out, I am checking the logs though, so don't worry
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<mercourisj> from the project description: "The ps macro takes Parenscript code in the form of lists (Parenscript code and Common Lisp code share the same representation), translates as much as it can into constant JavaScript strings at macro-expansion time, and expands into a form that will evaluate to a string containing JavaScript code."
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<jmercouris> Zhivago: What do you mean by "perhaps it is just a symbol"?
<schweers> does insert-help contain what you expect?
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<Zhivago> ps:ps looks like a symbol. Perhaps that's how it is being used.
<jmercouris> schweers: No
<jmercouris> It looks like this: "document.body.innerHTML = helpContents;"
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<jmercouris> Whereas it should look like "document.body.innerHTML = "contents of help-contents variable";"
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<shrdlu68> Is there a way to increase dynamic heap size in sbcl once it's running?
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<schweers> shrdlu68: As far as I know this cannot be done. I wish there was a way though. Or rather I wish this could happen automatically.
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<schweers> jmercouris: can you verify that SETF has any effect? Also, have you tried factoring the (PS:PS ...) expression into a function and calling that with HELP-CONTENTS as an argument?
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<jmercouris> schweers: I haven't tried that, but I don't see how that would help, I didn't write ps:ps it is part of parenscript
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<schweers> I know, but I don’t know anything about parenscript, so I have no idea what the macro actually does.
<mercourisj> schweers: setf most definitely has an effect, if you look at the outputted html it has an assignment on the innerhtml of the body
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<mercourisj> what I need to figure it is how to inline to ps somehow :\
<schweers> Is it imporant to have the SETF inside the macro?
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<schweers> i.e. is setf meant to be carried through to js?
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<jmercouris> schweers: Correct, it must be in JS the point is to set the text of the web page
<jmercouris> schweers: Correct, it must be in JS the point is to set the text of the web page
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<schweers> have you macroexpanded it?
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<mercourisj> yes, the macro expansion is the same as ps:ps
<schweers> have you macroexpanded the PS invocation?
<schweers> to see what it does with its arguments
<mercourisj> Yes the issue is the symbol conversaion rather than evaluation
<mercourisj> If you look in the reference here:https://common-lisp.net/project/parenscript/reference.html
<mercourisj> You'll see the section "Symbol Conversion" which is what is happening with the value of help-contents, rather than an eval to its value
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<jmercouris> alright, so reading the manual again, I retried ps:lisp, apparently ONLY at runtime does the lisp form get evaluated, so I was doing the macro expansion and it looked wrong to me, but did actually work
<jmercouris> so to anyone reading the log in the future, the following is how I solved my problem (ps:lisp help-contents) instead of just using help-contents which was being translated to a js symbol helpContents
<jmercouris> within (ps:lisp) any lisp can be eval'd at runtime
<hajovonta> is that null lexical environment?
<jmercouris> hajovonta: sorry, what is the question?
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<jdz> On SBCL: (upgraded-array-element-type '(unsigned-byte 7)) => (UNSIGNED-BYTE 7)
<jdz> schweers: ^
<hajovonta> jmercouris: in the (ps:lisp) form
<devon> CCL> (upgraded-array-element-type '(unsigned-byte 7)) => (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8)
<Bike> if you know it's an (unsigned-byte 7) you might as well tell the implementation so, since it upgrades regardless
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<devon> (ps:lisp '(upgraded-array-element-type '(unsigned-byte 7))) => (UPGRADED-ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE '(UNSIGNED-BYTE 7))
<Bike> okay?
<devon> Mindless, don't mind me.
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<jdz> I wrote a bit about arrays ages ago here: http://t-b-o-g.blogspot.com/2009/10/brians-brain-on-common-lisp-take-2.html </shameless-plug>
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<schweers> jdz: but does it have any benefit declaring the element type as (unsigned-byte 7)?
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<schweers> now that I think of it: there may be cases in which the compiler can prove that an operation on an element will not be larger than (unsigned-byte 8)
<jdz> If that's what you will be storing there, then yes.
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<shrdlu68> 8-bit is to octet as 7-bit is to?
<jdz> septet?
<schweers> byte :-P
<shrdlu68> Hehe, I'll go with septet
<shrdlu68> (deftype septet...
<jdz> schweers: let me look that up for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byte#9_bit
<schweers> wasn’t always the case though, was it?
<schweers> but I may very well be wrong about that, I’m not old enough to remember a time when a byte wasn’t 8 bits
<jdz> I remember at least some architectures from early lisp days had 36-bit words, which I think implied 9-bit bytes.
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<devon> 7-bit bytes with a spare bit.
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<jdz> s/I remember/I remember reading about/
<jdz> I have not touched a PDP-11 or a Lisp Machine in my life.
<ecraven> jdz: I don't think lisp machine words were split into bytes
<devon> In fact, any byte size you like, as long as it fits.
<devon> That's where byte pointers come from.
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<devon> (dpb hi (byte 8 8) lo)
<jdz> I should read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_704
<jdz> I also remember reading about strings being chunks of 5? characters (each one 7-bits) packed in words?
<devon> haha, CAR & CDR
<devon> Correct, the sign bit unused.
<jdz> Or could be used for tag?
<jdz> Maybe not.
<ecraven> I think the 36 bit had 4 bit tags
<jdz> Could be 4 characters, then.
<jdz> Does it ring any bells for anybody?
<devon> I suppose the Symbolics 3600 had 32 bits + 4 tag bits.
<shrdlu68> Just realized #'member only works with lists.
<devon> The LMITI (LMI+MIT+TI) CADR has 32 bits - tag bits, so maybe 28 to work with.
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<devon> #'find takes anything and you can :key #'car
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<jdz> Oh, this might be it (from IBM_704 page): «Alphanumeric characters were usually 6-bit BCD, packed six to a word.»
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<devon> No lowercase for you!
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<pjb> lisp 1.5 charset: "0123456789#=\"###+ABCDEFGHI%.)###-JKLMNOPQRØ$*### /STUVWXYZ±,(###"
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<pjb> # = unallocated codepoint.
<devon> PDP-10 SIXBIT for filenames, SQUOZE for symbol tables, 7-bit ASCII for text, 8-bit SAIL for terminal output, 9-bit... not sure but I'm sure it got some use.
<pjb> Funny: there's ±
<pjb> ASCII was invented way later than LISP 1.5…
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<devon> I suspect that " is a mistake and ' is more likely.
<jdz> Why?
<jdz> There is Ø and ±, and many unallocated codepoints.
<jdz> Devon: what about it? It's very different from what pjb shared.
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<jdz> That's a bit closer, does not have " nor '.
<devon> McCarthy's printer may have had a slightly different print chain installed.
<devon> or drum, as they probably had the top-of-the-line gear.
<hajovonta> top gear
<knobo3> |
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<pjb> Well, foremost, the character set was determined by the printer chains. They could easily be changed for each printing job!
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<devon> Taking off now to shame the FCC. Happy hacking!
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<jdz> tfb: thanks!
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<circ-user-81lkm> Is it possible to query a "system class" like character for its subclasses? e.g. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_ch.htm#character has base-char and extended-char extending character. Something like (subclasses 'character) => '(base-char extended-char)?
<Shinmera> You can't query class relationship information in CL at all, you need the MOP for that.
<Shinmera> Well, aside from probing with subtypep
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<emaczen> Almost every implementation provides the MOP though
<emaczen> There is even a library called closer-mop which will work on most implementations too
<_death> types aren't necessarily classes, in particular base-char and extended-char are not classes
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<Bike> For that particular question you can use subtypep, i.e. (subtypep 'extended-char nil)
<Bike> which i think is required to give you an actual result.
<Shinmera> Afaiu he wants to get a list of subtypes, though.
<Shinmera> If you know the set of concrete types you can probe with subtypep, I guess, but not in general.
<Bike> the list of subtypes of almost any type is infinite
<Shinmera> Yeah.
<Bike> circ-user-81lkm: more information on what you're doing?
<jmercouris> What's a good way to show the source for any given function?
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<_death> jmercouris: M-.
<jmercouris> _death: Outside of emacs, purely in Lisp
<Bike> if you need to do it programmatically (and as i recall, you're making some kind of editor) it's implementation specific. Look through swank
<Bike> and what you'll get is a source location, not the actual source form, which has probably been discarded
<_death> jmercouris: there is no way in plain common lisp.. pjb has a package called ibcl which may be appropriate
<jmercouris> Bike: You mean like a position + a file?
<Bike> Yes.
<circ-user-81lkm> Well I saw a demo somewhere of a UI that produced a class hierarchy diagram and it included character and it's subtypes but I'm not sure how it produced that
<Bike> i.e. what M-. uses
<jmercouris> Maybe I'm just re-inventing emacs at this point, perhaps I shouldn't implement that
<Bike> pragmatic, shinmera
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<Shinmera> Bike: 's what I do
<jmercouris> Ah, that is very good indeed, very simple
<Bike> It's true, though, if you want to do editor things you could do worse than just bringing in swank rather than reimplementing it
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<Bike> It also has completions and other stuff you were doing
<jmercouris> Yeah, maybe it is pointless though, because someone can just use slime to connect to my program
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<jmercouris> I should just get slime working with my standalone executable, and avoid too many things like "jump to source" and stuff like that, I'll leave it at showing docstrings for built in help
<Bike> Is your program not an editor?
<Shinmera> It's a web browser, if I remember correctly
<Bike> lisp editing sounds like scope creep, then.
<jmercouris> Bike: It is a web browser
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<sjl> jmercouris: embed swank in the browser process, let people connect to and interact with it with whatever editor they want
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<jmercouris> sjl: Yeah, I have a branch for that, I was so close to releasing it, but none of the GUI updates were making it on screen
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<jmercouris> It doesn't make sense to me how that is even possible that the updates were not happening on screen, because all of the functions that update the gui have a (on-main-thread) macro which calls them in the ccl event process
<circ-user-81lkm> Thanks for the MOP tip - I think this is what I'm after, e.g. (closer-mop:class-direct-subclasses (find-class 'character)) => (#<BUILT-IN-CLASS STANDARD-CHAR>)
<emaczen> What does no more immobile pages left mean? It is an error I get from SBCL and then I get sent to LDB?
<emaczen> Can I just start SBCL with "more immobile pages" like sb-ext:dynamic-space-size?
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<emaczen> "No more immobile pages available" -- is the exact error message
<circ-user-81lkm> Although... I get different results in CCL vs. SBCL (where it gives nil)
<Bike> circ-user-81lkm: extended-char and standard-char are not required to be classes
<Bike> Whether they are types with elements in them is orthogonal to whether they are classes
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<pjb> jmercouris: it depends on how on-main-thread is implemented.
<pjb> I've noticed that with the latest versions of macOS, if you try to draw in a timer, it doesn't work reliably, even though you configure the time to execute on the main thread.
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<jmercouris> pjb: Interesting, I'll try some more tests, I just switchted to that branch
<jmercouris> Gotta go for now, but I'll report later if I come up with something
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<earl-ducaine> <possibly spam> Lispinators! I'd like to do a series of blog posts on MOP that provides enough practicle information and examples to alow someone get get started using it on real world problems (something that I found to be lacking either on the Internet or in the published literature.)
<earl-ducaine> I'm collecting feedback to guage interest and collect ideas. Feel free to reply here on IRC or post a comment to my blog post requesting the same: https://wordpress.com/view/earlducaine.wordpress.com
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<earl-ducaine> Oops, meant: https://earlducaine.wordpress.com/
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<Bike> earl-ducaine: this might not be what you had in mind, but the word wrap is weird https://i.imgur.com/3U7UPFn.png
<whoman> earl-ducaine: interesting, thank you ! will check it out.
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<earl-ducaine> Damn. That's what you get for composing a Wordpress first in Emacs. Looked great on my screen with, probably because of exactly alined linebreaks.
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<Bike> earl-ducaine: i think the discussion of slots is a bit confusing. objects still 'own' slots in clos
<Bike> it might be worthwhile to be kind of anal about the distinction between slots (parts of an object, probably anonymous in a vector) and slot definitions
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<Bike> oh, you gave up on this post, i see...
<Bike> my mistake
<Bike> as structuring goes i'd use examples. like some basic features someone want: persistence, observers. stuff you can implement in a simple way in a page or so while introducing mop concepts
<whoman> interesting how (error ..) is used in :initform s
<earl-ducaine> Bike: that's exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for!
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<whoman> singleton ~_~
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<whoman> anyone having success using nEXT browser ? why not just use Ceramic. =)
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<whoman> earl-ducaine: your mention of the AMOP book, is it a prerequisite ?
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<Bike> AMOP isn't good as a textbook of how to use MOP because it's definitely intended as a book on developing MOP instead
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<Bike> but that just means there aren't any books on using MOP :D
<whoman> that makes sense.. i read it the other day; was not sure if it was a preview, or a booklet/pamphlette, ..
<whoman> but MOP is awesome! isn't it? we can defclass with not-yet-defined subclasses (forward) and...
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<whoman> ...my sense of OOP is directly tied to syntax, of which CLOS looks like everything else, so i am reserving its application currently. its all just lists anyhow.
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<whoman> ok earl-ducaine i read it all. my summary: its an introduction to the MOP book, as it talks mostly about it, so i was thinking about that book, and now at the end, after reading it, i feel like i am hungrier than when i came to dinner. i would have the impression that MOP is mysterious undocumented internal assembly unsafe scariness
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<earl-ducaine> whoman: Yes, that's exactly what hope to dispell in the revised series!
<whoman> oh! exciting =)
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<Xach> borodust: how do i try that new blob?
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<borodust> Xach: here's the link to archive: https://goo.gl/wH6Fok
<borodust> Xach: just unpack and run hello-gamekit executable
<_rumbler31_> whoman: Ceramic has been unstable every time I try to use it
<borodust> Xach: sources are here: https://github.com/borodust/hello-gamekit
<borodust> Xach: that's basically an example code from Getting Started guide
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<Xach> borodust: should i expect to see a difference in the scaling issue today with the latest dist update?
<borodust> Xach: yes, but you need to update the dist first
<borodust> and remove trivial-gamekit if it is still in local-projects
<Xach> hmm, right!
<Xach> no luck, and hello-gamekit is also scaled oddly :~(
<borodust> ouch
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<borodust> i'll take a look
<Xach> would a video help again?
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<Xach> It would basically show what you've seen before - 1/4 scaling in the lower left of the window
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<borodust> Xach: hmm
<borodust> can you nuke ~/.cache/common-lisp/* and check again?
<Ober> Shinmera: do you profile your elisp methods for call counts?
<borodust> i was pretty sure i fixed the issue D:
<Ober> what is the right way to bundle your .cache/common-lisp fasls/sos
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<borodust> Xach: okay, got a second report issue stil persists
<Ober> allegro puts it all in the same directory as the binary
<Ober> well shared objects anyways
<borodust> Xach: going in :)
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<Shinmera> Ober: I don't use elisp
<Ober> Shinmera: emacs right? was looking to see if you could enable command-frequency, as very curious which slime functions I'm not making use of. you do a lot of stuff where it's not obvious to me which method you invoked
<Shinmera> Uh, I don't use a lot of stuff
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<Ober> might be a simple as me not using the right `select last sexp and eval`
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<Shinmera> I just C-c C-c for that.
<Shinmera> Other than that the standard paredit things, plus multiple-cursors and expand-region are commands I frequently use.
<Shinmera> I'm no emacs expert by any means
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<borodust> Xach: holy moly, i'm dumb, found the source D:
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<borodust> Xach: fixed it only for like 99% lol, and forgot one important thing
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<Ober> Shinmera: thanks
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<borodust> Xach: i updated the dist, please, check if this version works for you
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<emaczen> What are the recommended speed and space settings for development?
<emaczen> 1 or 0?
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<oleo> speed 1 space 1 ?
<oleo> or space 0 ?
<emaczen> yeah with declaim optimize
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<oleo> debug 2
<oleo> won't that already make other stuff like speed and space have some default setting ?
<Bike> they don't affect each other.
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<oleo> then why not keep it all at level 2 ?
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<asarch> What do you think?: http://www.tutorialspoint.com/lisp/
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<fourier> anyone have had any troubles with alignment/order of the fields in structs returned from C functions by cffi?
<cgay> asarch: A lisp tutorial seems like a fine idea, even though I'm sure it's not the first. At first glance I can see some problems with the content. Are you asking because you wrote it and you want feedback or because you want to use it to learn Lisp?
<Bike> tutorialspoint has been kind of bad when i've used it for C
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<jmercouris> tutorialspoint is good for python, for lisp though, it was terrible, practical common lisp is a really good, though ironically somewhat impractical way of learning lisp
<jmercouris> I felt like practical common lisp neglected many practical topics, the author addresses that in one of the chapters, but I guess when you get to there, you can start learning on your own
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<borodust> jmercouris: oh, wh.. ah, i see
<fourier> there is common lisp recipes for practical topics as well as "cl cookbook" it is based on
<jmercouris> the new CL cookbook on github is very good!
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<jmercouris> borodust: Yeah lol, see here: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/conclusion-whats-next.html
<cgay> I learned with Touretsky's Gentle Intro to Symbolic Computation, which I thought was excellent. It's very basic, but at the time I had no CS background so it worked for me.
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<borodust> jmercouris: to be fair, that was my experience too
<borodust> when i learned basics, i just went for making my own stuff
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<_rumbler31_> jmercouris: what practial topics do you feel PCL neglected
<borodust> but practical there stands for more like "practical" part of CL
<fourier> dont forget pcl was from 2005 iirc, so how much practical aspects do you want from 12-years old book
<borodust> jmercouris: w/o nitty gritty confusing stuff
<Shinmera> Well, I mean, when it comes to "practical" things the areas one might want to have covered is almost infinite.
<jmercouris> Yeah, practical is a very large set, I would have just liked something more cookbooky
<Shinmera> Have a look at Common Lisp Recipes then.
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<cgay> I guess you can't get much more cookbooky than that.
<_rumbler31_> I was impressed with the mutlithreaeded section
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<jmercouris> I've seen them already, but point taken
<_rumbler31_> I got the gist of the description of how to parallelize a process that can be described as a graph of operations, where peers can be processed simultaneously
<jmercouris> _rumbler31_: You should take a distributed systems course, you'll learn all about different theories for proving correctness, order, etc
<jmercouris> Also different scheduling, communication and signaling strategies to ensure correctness, even with failure etc
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<fourier> cl recipes is so awesome
<_rumbler31_> sounds good!
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<fourier> my favorite book, always revert to it
<asarch> I want to use it as reference cgay
<asarch> Does it worth?
<asarch> I mean, is it a good tutorial?
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<fourier> just buy it
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<fourier> its not a tutotiral but accompanying book
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<asarch> Thank you guys
<asarch> Thank you very much :-)
<asarch> See you later! Viel Spaẞ!
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<Ober> nice, modern book
<Ober> also a great source of what to use, and what not to use
<cgay> I think there were several overloaded bindings for "it" there, but oh well.
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<fourier> i meant cl recipes book
<cgay> Yup. I think asarch was still referring to TutorialsPoint.
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<aeth> I personally find the best way to write fast CL is to use a mostly-functional style: i.e. pure functions that feed into mutable data structures. One way of getting non-consing pure functions without a lot of macro hacks is to use multiple return values, which will work for non-boxed values (obviously, within reason... 16 return values for a 4x4 matrix probably won't work well with this style).
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<aeth> I also treat a zero-body do as pure, even though technically it's just a bunch of mutating gotos. This is because do is pure in Scheme (a macro makes it tail recursion instead of mutating values and having gotos) and that do is basically identical to CL's do minus the ability to do gotos in the do body, afaik.
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<Devon> What is this zero-body, is it documented?
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<aeth> Devon: A zero-body do is a do that doesn't have a body... If you're using do in a purely functional way, you usually don't need a body (except perhaps for type declarations) because the body is for side effects.
<aeth> I suppose nil body or something would be more accurate.
<aeth> It probably got morphed in a game of telephone
<aeth> The first three examples here don't have a body: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_do.htm
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<aeth> Note that do uses 1+ instead of incf, so even though it's technically setting if you macroexpand it, you can pretend it's functional.
<aeth> I think CL is more of a language for making functional languages than an actual functional language itself. You're ultimately going to be mutating, but you can hide it well and pretend you're pure.
<aeth> Not just functional languages. CL seems like an excellent choice for implementing fifth-generation programming languages. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth-generation_programming_language
<aeth> It's not surprising at all to see that article have the phrase "These types of languages were also built upon Lisp, many originating on the Lisp machine"
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<Devon> aeth: a disembodied do, like a loop macro with no do clause.
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<aeth> Yes, I suppose someone once used 'nil body' as an alternative to 'disembodied' and then someone with a dialect where 'nil' means 'zero' said 'zero' instead, and that's how I picked up the confusing term. 'nil body' at least still makes sense.
<pfdietz> ML was originally implemented in lisp (as part of LCF.)
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<aeth> Anyway, I see Lisp as a langauge for writing declarative (including purely functional) languages, rather than a declarative language, except where the work has already been done by some included macro (usually the macros are left to libraries).
<aeth> Imo, there's not enough magic going on in the compiler for efficient pure functional programming out of the box... unless you abuse the language, but such abuses should probably be macroified, anyway.
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<jasom> okay I remember slime being able to eval an expression and add the result as a comment like ;; => FOO
<jasom> do I need an extension or something for it because I can't find that; just the C-u C-x C-e which prints it with no comment
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<Devon> Do you get 504: Gateway Time-out at http://LearnLispTheHardWay.org?
<aeth> If I'm heavily abusing symbol macros, do you think it's clear enough if I use names like 'location.x instead of 'x-location or 'location-x to abstract over where I store the x location? Definitely probably violates every style guide in existence, but 'location.x seems like the most obvious name for this syntactic shortcut to me.
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<aeth> I have to heavily abuse symbol macros because otherwise my implementation leaks because I use 2D arrays, meaning arefs everywhere. Fortunately, arefs are very similar to accessors (they are accessors?), so I can basically copy the basic layout of with-accessors
<aeth> e.g. (setf location.x 4f0) becomes (setf (aref location entity-id +x+) 4f0) where +x+ is 0
<aeth> I could also use the name location-x or something else, but... I don't think I can use the idiomatic (x location) because then I need to add a lot more complexity than just a symbol-macrolet
<aeth> I also absolutely hate macros that have fake macros/functions in the body that don't even exist because you can't really do things with them that you expect, and you basically can only figure out what's going on when a syntax error pops up by doing something wrong.
<aeth> At least with location.x or location-x it's clear that it's a symbol, and fairly obvious that something like with-accessors is going on
<aeth> I'm trying to get this API right because I have to rework half of my code every time I change it because it's very core to my game engine.
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<republican_devil> how do lispers handle big data?
<republican_devil> or e commerce?
<republican_devil> without resporting to postgresql?
<republican_devil> can files and lisp do it?
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<papachan> republican_devil ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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<Devon> republican_devil: (ql:system-apropos "sql") gets 44 hits, nosql gets none...
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<whoman> aeth: i think dots are totally fine and i think that is also an interesting idea
<whoman> i am looking at this right now, anaphoric macros: https://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/guest/chap6.html
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<republican_devil> no no
<republican_devil> want to avoid sql and postgresql
<republican_devil> aavoid nosql
<aeth> Ah, interesting... with-accessors only works without problems because CL is a Lisp-2. This would have to be used with care because this would blow the stack as it infinitely expands the foo: (with-entity-accessors ((foo foo)) 42 foo)
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<aeth> republican_devil: Just about everyone uses postgresql through postmodern, afaik. And most of the rest will probably use some other SQL system with a different SQL database.
<aeth> NoSQL would be tricky because quite a lot of them use JSON and CL's JSON support is fairly weak.
<Shinmera> What are you talking about
<Shinmera> There's like six or what JSON libraries to do the parsing and serialising in literally every way imaginable.
<aeth> JSON doesn't map well to CL, and the popular libraries' arbitrary decisions are bad, especially the most popular's, cl-json
<whoman> aeth: check out the variable capture of anaphoric macro, may help u out now that i think of it =)
<aeth> thinking "nil" is more "null" than "false" is quite possibly the worst way to approach it, yet cl-json does it that way.
<Shinmera> So
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<aeth> Shinmera: so the most popular (by far) JSON implementation is fundamentally flawed in the way it tries to connect JSON's data types to CL's data types
<Shinmera> Also, there already are libraries to interface with mongo and couchdb, etc.
<aeth> And being the most popular, that's probably the one most libraries use
<Shinmera> aeth: So what? That doesn't make JSON support "weak". There's still all the other libraries that offer all the other options.
<aeth> I'd call CL's regexp support weak if a fatally flawed regexp library was as popular as cl-ppcre and cl-ppcre was obscure
<republican_devil> why use json?
<Shinmera> And I'd call that stupid
<republican_devil> why use a sql database?
<aeth> republican_devil: People follow the trends, which in 2000 would have been XML and in 2017 is now JSON... In fact, in 2017 it's remaking everything that has been done with XML, but for JSON
<republican_devil> oracle is cancer in my opinion
<republican_devil> no no Im talking about using lisp not following trends
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<republican_devil> Im on frebsd with icewm and chrome
<aeth> Shinmera: The problem is that you'll basically be forced to use multiple libraries that do essentially the same thing when it comes to something like JSON, since odds are one of your dependencies is using cl-json and another realized cl-json is stupid and is using one of the other 5
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<aeth> Compare this to something where there's one library (e.g. closer-mop, cl-ppcre, babel, trivial-features, trivial-gray-streams, bordeaux-threads, cffi, etc.) that dominates. Less likely to have a dependency explosion
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<Shinmera> Then that's an issue with the libraries at hand. It doesn't say anything at all about the support for JSON in and of itself.
<Shinmera> And again, because there are different ways to do it, there's different libraries to do it. This is not the case with the other examples you mentioned (mostly) because there's very little to do differnetly.
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<Shinmera> mop, ppcre, encodings, ffi, features, threading, are all sets that are pretty well defined, and the way to implement a library for it is thus clear. The JSON mapping is not.
<aeth> There's a different way to do babel... treat it like a portability library and e.g. use SBCL's much faster octets-to-string when on SBCL. There's many ways to do regular expressions. There's also probably many ways to do something like bt or cffi. There are different ways to handle what trivial-features does, one library I used to use used that alternative.
<whoman> sb-alien
<aeth> trivial-gray-streams is the only unambiguous basically-one-way-to-do-it library there that I know of. I don't know enough about closer-mop, but it might be the same way.
<Shinmera> bt, ffi, etc. expose a min-max API and are thus also pretty clearly defined and couldn't well be done otherwise.
<whoman> lisp libraries hmm could be treated a bit less as having an API and more of being a bunch of parts
<aeth> I'll grant your point on bt. I'm not sure about cffi
<aeth> Anyway, I do see it as a flaw in the CL ecosystem that there isn't a clearly correct (for most use cases) and popular JSON library... although, that might just be because a lot of people (like me) use s-expressions for data where other languages would use JSON, YAML, or XML. Still hurts interfacing with things written in other languages, though.
<aeth> It's not a flaw in CL itself, obviously.
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<aeth> Most of the stuff at the top of this are clearly the correct library for the thing they're trying to solve, or at least correct enough to not be worth using an alternative. http://blog.quicklisp.org/2017/12/november-2017-quicklisp-download-stats.html
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<Shinmera> trivial-backtrace for instance is no longer the best option though :^)
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<aeth> republican_devil: If you're talking about using Lisp instead of SQL where SQL would normally be used, then I think it's still technically NoSQL
<Devon> republican_devil: I scoped out various CL JSON libs for a product I was developing, found one which was round-trip correct, IIRC I still had to hack it a bit to get it right.
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<aeth> Devon: Yes, round-trip correctness, that's the issue. It's related to also having reasonable encodings. Not having a separate '() and #f here hurts CL in a naive encoding if one wants to use lists instead of arrays.
<Devon> Anyone here ever use a "Semantic" database?
<aeth> jcowan_ pointed out some workarounds to JSON encoding issues in #scheme a few weeks ago, iirc
<aeth> I'm not sure if any CL library uses them
<aeth> Devon: can you clarify? "semantic" sounds like it might be too much of a buzzword to search
<Devon> I have this vague nightmarish recollection of ugly compromises.
<Devon> Franz, Inc.'s hoopla, has anyone used it?
<aeth> republican_devil: I'm not aware of a portable CL-native database that has any real popularity. I wouldn't be surprised if LispWorks and/or Allegro have their own proprietary ones.
<aeth> Some of the entity systems used by #lispgames might be seen as CL-native in-memory databases, but they would be built around being real-time, not around big data.
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<aeth> A portable database that's not in-memory would probably need some portability around mmap. Does this exist? It looks like the only name match in Quicklisp is trivial-mmap.