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<kreyren>
Is `)) )` acceptable code style instead of using `)))` for code review?
<kreyren>
makes the code much more readable imho >.>
<no-defun-allowed>
Usually no; the computer reads the )) and you read the layout.
<aeth>
Old Lisps had a lot of different styles, but these days )))))))))))) has won out because people usually have their tools manage their parentheses for them.
<kreyren>
O.o
<kreyren>
What tools? afaik there is only a tool to make the parentecies a different color and to jump to the closing
<no-defun-allowed>
paredit adds a ) for every ( you type, and has more convenient expression jumping from what I've heard.
<kreyren>
I see O.o
<no-defun-allowed>
parinfer as well, I think, but that does some more work guessing where the parens go from indentation? I somehow lived without using them.
<jcowan>
Interlisp had ], which terminated as many )s as necessary
<aeth>
there should probably be an official channel FAQ for questions like this
<kreyren>
also can i ask for elisp review here?
<aeth>
that's more of a topic for #emacs or ##lisp
<kreyren>
(#emacs doesn't like me for asking too much questions)
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<jcowan>
##lisp-ers will not complain
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<beach>
phoe: Wow, that's way more than I thought. Good!
<beach>
minion: memo for ebrasca: Did you have any particular contribution in mind for Second Climacs, or did you want me to suggest something for you?
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell ebrasca when he/she/it next speaks.
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<phoe>
beach: also way more than I thought
<beach>
I will definitely order it when it comes out.
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<Nilby>
Can I handle reading another long book on Lisp? For TCLCS I'll make an exception.
<no-defun-allowed>
I'll definitely order it, but I'll only read it if I can handle it.
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<phoe>
I mean, a half of the book is just one guy playing with his phone and another two people trying to hide their relationship from sorta dangerous parents
<phoe>
seriously
<Nilby>
spoiler alert
<beach>
phoe: Er, what?
<Nilby>
But I actually was entertained by it, but it reminded me of my life as teenager.
<no-defun-allowed>
Those are very relatable examples.
<phoe>
beach: yes
<phoe>
basically, I use two simple stories as plot devices that exemplify how to handle special situations in code
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<beach>
Ah, OK.
<phoe>
one of them for handlers, another - for restarts
<beach>
Got it.
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<phoe>
and by "handle" I mean "construct these handling facilities from scratch and then use them"
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<beach>
ebrasca: I think minion has a message for you.
<ebrasca>
minion help
<minion>
ebrasca, memo from beach: Did you have any particular contribution in mind for Second Climacs, or did you want me to suggest something for you?
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<ebrasca>
beach: I like to have some good text editor in Mezzano , I like to see if I can help in this area.
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<beach>
I see. I am not sure what to suggest for you at this point.
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<beach>
ebrasca: I need to come up with a way to describe rules for indentation in a way that avoids too much code duplication. And I need to handle all possible errors that Eclector might signal and turn them into ways of displaying the code.
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<beach>
ebrasca: I can't really ask you to do any of that.
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<ebrasca>
beach: ok
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<moon-child>
out of curiosity, has there been any effort put into porting mcclin to mezzano?
<no-defun-allowed>
I think McCLIM runs on Mezzano, so yes.
<moon-child>
oh, really? I thought it was still x-only
<phoe>
if Clouseau runs on Mezzano then so must McCLIM
<moon-child>
neat!
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<beach>
Does it use the McCLIM framebuffer backend for that?
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<phoe>
I do not know such details
<no-defun-allowed>
From memory, yes.
<beach>
Great!
<scymtym>
McCLIM on Mezzano uses the "render" extension for rasterizing while the Mezzano backend itself takes care the framebuffer and buffer "flipping"
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<beach>
By the "render" extension, I take it you don't mean XRender, but the McCLIM render extension, yes?
<scymtym>
where render extension = anti-aliased rasterizing of vector primitives in portable common lisp
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<beach>
Right.
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<flip214>
having an hex string with 16 bits per character (likely ucs16), is there a function in babel to get a lisp string?
<beach>
What is a "hex string"?
<beach>
I mean, what Common Lisp type is that?
<phoe>
flip214: you mean you have a ub16 byte vector?
<phoe>
or ub8 byte vector with two bytes per char?
<flip214>
I have a string that looks like "31000000" to give "1<nul>"
<flip214>
I can easily get bytes via ironclad... and am currently using a loop to SETF characters in a string
<phoe>
oh
<phoe>
then get bytes and feed those bytes to babel
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<AeroNotix>
What's the process for contributing patches to SBCL? Just send a PR on the github repo? Is there a mailing list or something where RFCs must be sent first?
<phoe>
AeroNotix: not on github
<phoe>
that's just a mirror
<phoe>
there's the sbcl-devel mailing list, and the official sourceforge repository
<AeroNotix>
eh ok
<AeroNotix>
I'm not even sure if what I want to do would be allowed, per the standard. But maybe... the package I want to work on is not a standard package.
<phoe>
what do you want to do?
<AeroNotix>
the sb-bsd-sockets package is a bit inefficient and inflexible
<jackdaniel>
which may have many many keyword arguments (due to inheritance)
<jackdaniel>
for instance I've hit a bug in ecl (already fixed) a year ago or so, where McCLIM function was called with 67 arguments
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<jackdaniel>
and there was off-by-one error, where one argument was eaten (due to a different representation of the argument list above 64)
<jackdaniel>
so 50 would not cut it ,)
<phoe>
also stuff like (apply #'max (alexandria:iota 1000)) is not 100% portable
<phoe>
REDUCE is better in such contexts
<jackdaniel>
also if you generate functions with macros, you may easily cross any limit
<jackdaniel>
(depending on input)
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<schweers>
Does anyone know how it can happen that deploy can deploy and copy a foreign library to the bin directory, but not be able to load it again when starting the executable? On starting, I get output informing me that the library shall be loaded, but that loading fails. The listed alternatives show the actual filename at the first position.
<phoe>
schweers: this can happen in case of transitive foreign dependencies
<phoe>
if CFFI depends on foreign lib A which depends on foreign lib B then deploy is only aware of A and will only copy A.
<phoe>
you need to manually copy B or explicitly tell CFFI that B is also required in the project
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<phoe>
but that is just one reason why a dlopen() call may fail
<schweers>
Could there be such a depencency between libssl and libev?
<phoe>
huh? I guess not
<phoe>
they're independent AFAIK
<AeroNotix>
schweers: why don't you write a quick C script to run dlopen on it directly
<schweers>
I thought so
<AeroNotix>
c script => c program
<schweers>
AeroNotix: Because I’m not sure what that’s supposed to tell me
<AeroNotix>
schweers: it may give you the underlying errno for why the dlopen is failing
<AeroNotix>
jackdaniel: this has been running for quite a while
<schweers>
On dumping, deploy informs me that it’s dumping libssl and libev and those two files do indeed end up in the directory as expected. I copy the complete directory to a new container and booting fails because the file cannot be found
<AeroNotix>
a container?
<AeroNotix>
are you using alpine by any chance?
<schweers>
AeroNotix: A docker container. No, I’m using debian:buster-slim
<schweers>
I had problems with alpine and libz, so I ditched it
<AeroNotix>
schweers: ok, well containers can / sometimes do funky things with shared libraries. Either not including them, or in the case of alpine it even uses different/unexpected implementations of libc
<schweers>
Yeah, I was a bit confused by the whole thing to be honest. But as deploy copies a libssl file over, I wouldn’t have thought this to be a problem
<AeroNotix>
as phoe said, this smells like a transitive dependency issue. Containers often try to be lean with what's included.
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<schweers>
Shouldn’t that be a non-problem, since deploy includes the relevant .so files anyway?
<AeroNotix>
yeah but there may be system dependencies which exist on your local / testing machine which aren't in the container filesysem
<schweers>
Hmm. I’m adding libssl to the testing container for good measure.
<schweers>
I’ll report on it in a second
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<schweers>
Huh. Now it seems to work. Well, that part does anyway. Caveman/Clack/lack seem to do some pretty weird things at runtime. But that’s another problem for another time
<AeroNotix>
yay
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<schweers>
Thanks for the tip. Now I wonder whether I should keep using deploy or not.
<schweers>
Oh well. I guess I’ll just install the runtime dependency. As I control the docker container it doesn’t really hurt anyway.
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<phoe>
schweers: no idea about deploy, the libs that are copied should work after being copied too in the general case.
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<phoe>
still, checking foreign dependencies is left for the programmer since there's no good way to do that from Lisp
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<schweers>
phoe: I guess you’re right. I’ll just install libssl and everything is fine
<schweers>
Many many thousand thanks to the two of you for helping me.
<Xach>
I hate that using tls/ssl for network connections is really difficult when it comes to ensuring the right libraries are available in the right places.
<phoe>
the beauty of using foreign libraries™
<phoe>
no FFI, no security
<AeroNotix>
arguably if this is running in a container I would suggest to terminate ssl at some ingress layer
<phoe>
that is also an option
<AeroNotix>
depends on the library schweers is using though
<AeroNotix>
some stuff (like the quic lib I am wrapping) NEED to use ssl directly
<schweers>
AeroNotix: now that you put it that way, I’m not sure I actually need ssl. It seems to be pulled in as a dependency for dexador
<schweers>
Which I only use in the tests
<schweers>
I plan on not doing SSL in lisp, but instead use apache or nginx or something similar as a ... reverse proxy? I believe that is the correct term.
<phoe>
yes
<phoe>
that is a very good option in practice
<AeroNotix>
worth a look then. We run about 7,000 containers in our deployments altogeteher and only a handful actually speak SSL directly
<AeroNotix>
we terminate SSL at the load-balancers and use TCP to communicate with the containers
<phoe>
I had a LXD/LXC setup where I had a user-facing haproxy instance and a bunch of HTTP services that this haproxy was routing to
<phoe>
only haproxy dealt with SSL/letsencrypt, everything else on the internal network was plain HTTP
<schweers>
I‘m never quite sure whether that’s a good idea or not. But I’m not a security expert.
<phoe>
this included Lisp images
<AeroNotix>
schweers: it's fine
<AeroNotix>
schweers: the attack surface is you can decrypt traffic on the internal container network
<AeroNotix>
if someone gets access to that, well, you have more trouble than people sniffing packets
<schweers>
I guess
<AeroNotix>
are you using Kubernetes?
<schweers>
Me? No. I’m very new to this whole webdevelopment thing. I guess I got to the party really late ;)
<phoe>
anyway - I suggest using a reverse proxy and setting SSL/HTTPS only on that reverse proxy instead of everywhere else
<Xach>
My pain is more on the client end
<Xach>
Not serving http
<Xach>
(although that is also a pain)
<schweers>
Also for now it’s only going to be used on an internal network, so security is not exactly the highest priority
<phoe>
much less hassle this way, and reverse proxies are pretty much bulletproof and battle-tested nowadays so they are not attack vectors themselves.
<phoe>
Xach: ouch, yes
<schweers>
phoe: as I said, that was my plan. The http client library I am trying out pulls in cl+ssl, which I don’t actually need. I only realized this after fixing the issue
<schweers>
Does drakma need ssl?
<shrdlu68>
Using something like Nginx might also protect you from things like HTTP request smuggling, which might be untested in Lisp libraries.
<schweers>
Apparantly it does
<AeroNotix>
schweers: arguably you can frame using a reverse proxy as more secure. The SSL proxy layer is the only place you configure SSL. It can be audited and verified once. Then you don't need to deal with applications themselves talking SSL and needing to put keys on them etc
<phoe>
shka_: there's a compile-time option to tell it not to use ssl
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<schweers>
phoe: I suppose that was actually directed at me?
<AeroNotix>
yeah
<phoe>
uhhh
<phoe>
yes
<phoe>
push :drakma-no-ssl into features and recompile
<schweers>
hmm. Is there an easy way to do this from asdf?
<AeroNotix>
ugh honestly it should be the reverse in drakma, silly
<schweers>
I’m still not decided on drakma or dexador yet
<schweers>
I suppose drakma is more stable and widely used?
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<phoe>
dexador is effectively unmaintained
<schweers>
Oh. That makes the decision easy
<schweers>
Thanks for the heads up
<schweers>
How do you know that it’s unmaintained?
<phoe>
last activity half a years ago, multiple dangling issues and PRs
<phoe>
s/years/year/
<phoe>
as, sadly, common with fukamachiware
<AeroNotix>
one of the open issues is pretty bad, too.
<schweers>
hmmm
<AeroNotix>
Non-thread safety with features it explicitly calls out as being the killer feature over drakma
<AeroNotix>
Whereas drakma can re-use streams (might've not been the caled when dexador was first wrote, or something)
<schweers>
I’m afraid I plan on using lots of his stuff. And I have to admit that trying to get caveman to properly run is not as easy as I had anticipated.
<AeroNotix>
`the caled/the case`
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<phoe>
schweers: my condolences
<schweers>
phoe: No problem, I haven’t committed any work yet. Are there good alternatives? I just noticed that shinmera has something. Radiance?
<phoe>
radiance is a web framework, yes
<phoe>
with multiple examples, e.g. plaster that I use all the time
<schweers>
Is there such a thing as a recommended framework?
<shrdlu68>
schweers: Hunchentoot is pretty straight-forward
<schweers>
Well, it’s not exactly a framework, but a webserver, correct? The question is: is that a bad thing?
<AeroNotix>
only you can say whether that impacts your project really
<schweers>
I’m afraid I don‘t have nearly enough web experience to properly answer these questions
<AeroNotix>
just try one and see, you'll figure it out
<phoe>
^
<schweers>
Back to my question of building drakma without ssl support: Can I use ASDF to push a feature?
<phoe>
I think so, yes
<Xach>
schweers: two things on that: using *FEATURES* like that to control compilation leads to all kinds of problems. but 2) you can simply put (push :drakma-no-ssl *features*) in the .asd file anywhere. since it's loaded like a lisp program.
<Xach>
that second thing is also not great, but if you are in total control and it won't foul up anyone else, it's fine.
<schweers>
Xach: a fair point. Thank you
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<Xach>
actually, i take that back - you might have to put it before the defsystem form. i'm not completely sure.
<schweers>
That’s where I would have put it
<Xach>
maybe there should be an unsafentoot system that just has a single source file that pushes the right feature.
<Xach>
but then anyone who loads hunchentoot without unsafentoot first will have bad fasls later due to the wrong features
<Xach>
So, that's the main issue. if you push that to *features* in your own system and compile hunchentoot, the cached fasls are bad in later sessions that don't have that feature. fasls aren't separated out by *features* differences.
<schweers>
Hm. A good point, thanks for the heads up. Luckily that won’t be a problem for me
<Xach>
lucky indeed
<phoe>
should be fine if you are deploying an application
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<phoe>
won't be fine if you are creating a library of some sort
<Xach>
phoe: even when deploying an application, it can foul up local development on unrelated hunchentoot things
<phoe>
Xach: that's possible, yes
<Xach>
and it leads to an error that is truly baffling if you aren't at least slightly clued in about the potential issue
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<jackdaniel>
(push :nil *features*)
* jackdaniel
watches the world burn
<phoe>
madlad
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<AeroNotix>
(setf *features* :banana)
<phoe>
sorry, must be a list
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<phoe>
(let (*features*) ...) ; we're in a really primitive lisp here
<jmercouris>
(setf *features* :banana)
<jmercouris>
I like
<jmercouris>
(setf *features* (list :banana))
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<_death>
(defun evaluatemall () (dolist (c '(#\+ #\-)) (set-dispatch-macro-character #\# c (lambda (s c n) (declare (ignore c n)) (read s t nil t) (read s t nil t)))))
<phoe>
_death: forgot about (let ((*package* (find-package :keyword))) ...)
<phoe>
we don't want to intern new symbols in the current package, do we
<phoe>
even if we're up for letting the world burn, we gotta do that with style
<_death>
I'll leave that to trivial-world-burning
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<Nilby>
I like to do this (setf *features* #9=(cons nil #9#)) every now and then, followed by a nice (delete-package :cl) to keep me on my toes.
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<Nilby>
I feel like "recover from a sabotaged repl" could be a "fun" game.
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<_death>
you can also have a rempl that with some probability munges the result..
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<_death>
(or even a rmepl.. John Koza would be proud ;)
<phoe>
mrepl
<phoe>
oh wait a second...
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<AeroNotix>
I'm sure someone made a project which did exactly this.
<AeroNotix>
Removes a bunch of symbols randomly and your task is to get it working again by redefining some
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<phoe>
there's a bunch of standard symbols that are impossible to express in terms of others
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<phoe>
and the compiler infrastructure is likely to refer to those via EQ so interning new ones won't do anything other than break more stuff.
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<AeroNotix>
yeah I am not sure if this really exists or it was just a discussion in here a while back on how you'd implement a game like that so it's actually winnable
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<uhrenmacher>
How do I compile Lisp-Code?
<uhrenmacher>
( Common Lisp )
<ebrasca>
uhrenmacher: Normaly when you type you code in the repl it get compiled.
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<ebrasca>
afd_beste1: Do you mean stand alone executable?
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<uhrenmacher>
hmm
<uhrenmacher>
11
<uhrenmacher>
1/quit
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<treflip>
Hi
<treflip>
Is there is it possible to specify python verion in py4cl?
<treflip>
Oh, I guess, I should setf *python-command*
<even4void>
treflip: Do you need to have Python version specified programmatically or environment variables may do the job as well?
<treflip>
Well, I hoped to do it without python virtual environments, but if it's the only option, I have no choice :D
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<even4void>
Not sure there's an easy option, by just looking at the source code (https://is.gd/Vm1udX), but I've never use it so maybe someone will come with a better idea.
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<even4void>
Apprently, you were right with setting the *python-command*.
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<treflip>
Oh, this solves my problem completely, thanks
<even4void>
yw
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<markasoftware>
metatilities:flatten just segfaulted on me
<markasoftware>
wat
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<Lycurgus>
believe it or don't there was a time when that was fairly common
<_death>
victim of safety 0.. best submit a patch
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<mfiano>
On SBCL, safety doesn't even have to be zero to introduce segfaults when working with structs at least. Can produce very strange memory issues just if safety is lower than speed
<aeth>
I think that's only if you redefine structs, but if you have a counterexample...
<_death>
I see you are the cl-sdl2 maintainer.. had to patch it a bit today.. if the main thread is aborted, join-thread may signal an error, leaving things in a bad state
<mfiano>
No, that's always undefined behavior. I'm talking about memory safety issues.
<_death>
currently I catch the error and set the channel variable to nil, also letting the main thread variable become nil.. seems to behave better
<mfiano>
_death: The threading in cl-sdl2 is a joke. I only maintain it because the maintainer abruptly left Lisp and no one wanted to take over. If I had my way, I'd rewrite that whole project without autowrap and expose an API for working with it without all the macros that try to magically handle the main thread.
<_death>
well, autowrap makes things easy.. for example cl-sdl2-gfx didn't include all sdl2 gfx headers.. one more line and it now includes the header I need as well
<mfiano>
I think it was you that I mentioned cl-sdl2-ttf also needing a patch to not double-free now that cl-sdl2 has no weak refs.
<_death>
ah.. I don't use that
<mfiano>
Neither do I. Currently it's unusable as I receive a lot of reports from users that use it about memory corruption relating to it being unmaintained since the changes to cl-sdl2 a couple years ago.
<_death>
currently I mostly use it for visualizing stuff, logo environment, etc.. so I only need one font which I took from lispbuilder-sdl.. recently had to translate stuff from lispbuilder-sdl (sdl 1.2) to cl-sdl2 because the two can't live side by side in the same process (had a bit of fun figuring that out ;)
<mfiano>
Ha, yeah
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<mfiano>
I'm always doing graphics myself, using cl-sdl2 too, but against the exposed API. I don't use any of the macros which set up the main thread for you, because I actually run SLIME in my game's event loop.
<phantomics>
Have a question if anyone knows... what's the best way to daemonize a CL process on Linux? Using systemctl to daemonize has resulted in many problems, cl-daemonize and daemon packages don't seem to work too well or maybe it's just me - what's the most favored approach right now?
<_death>
I see.. I have a simple-graphics interface that's very easy to use
<mfiano>
That way I don't have to wrap REPL calls in some macro to make sure that it is ran on the SDL/GL context, and similarly across dynamic special bindings
<mfiano>
The REPL thread _is_ the main thread for me. I like it quite a lot.
<phantomics>
_death: this uses an SDL Surface for the bitmap right? What are you using the graphics for?
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<mfiano>
_death: Be careful using cl-sdl2 though. There are a couple areas that are unsafe still due to removal of finalizers a few years ago. See the issues, and any patches for them would be welcome. I just don't have enough time or desire to subject myself to that codebase much.