<Oksana>
It's difficult to cater to large volume of users. It has to be something either extremely 'cheap' (aka high quality for low price) or something attracting enterprise (like Blackberry) or something multi-functional (not simply a phone, but a PDA, an assistant for deaf (and blind?), a mapping device, a videophone, a game pad, a calculator, a musical instrument or tuner of musical instruments...)
<DocScrutinizer05>
aha
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think there's a market for a 30k devices with just good privacy and no need to "root your phone"
<Oksana>
Hopefully
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually I think there could be a market for 100k and more
<DocScrutinizer05>
I know of potential 10k in Germany alone
<Oksana>
Hn... I wonder how do I get permission in this country to spread leaflets and similar advertisement without breaking any laws.
<Oksana>
Good :)
<Oksana>
What is "Retractile stylus
<DocScrutinizer05>
there are several left wing political parties and "NGOs" who are very averse against governmental surveillance
<Oksana>
Left parties? You should be glad about results of Brazilian elections: Workers' Party won.
<Oksana>
Get well soon! :)
<mvaenskae>
hahaha,
<mvaenskae>
someone just told me the pyra will go for around 200 to 300 eur
<Oksana>
Pyra? You mean DragonBox Pyra?
<Oksana>
Beautiful, mighty, large-heavy, and almost no sensors. No ambient light sensor, even? Though, to be fair, it surely has temperature sensor for its battery, at least :)
wicket64 has joined #neo900
<Oksana>
Mighty, as in, 2x1.7Ghz CPU, 2GB RAM... Just 'slightly' larger than N950. Into which pocket would you fit DragonBox Pyra?
<mvaenskae>
Oksana: i was just wondering about the price and him believing in that
<mvaenskae>
no way it rolls that low
<mvaenskae>
even their forum has a post estimating it around 500 bucks
<mvaenskae>
a dualcore is nice and 2gb ram is solid but for my needs i doubt i will really need that;
<mvaenskae>
also gives me less room to waste ressources :D
<mvaenskae>
learn embedded design :)
<Oksana>
:)
<mvaenskae>
well, the pyra has 4 usb connections... that would be nice on the neo :)
wazrus has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
<Oksana>
Get external USB hub :) With external power source, too ;)
<mvaenskae>
hm, that is actually a great idea
<mvaenskae>
i lso have a quality one
<mvaenskae>
i intended to use it for the rpi but that thing is garbage :D
<DocScrutinizer05>
Pyra for 200 bucks? LOL! the modem alone costs 80 bucks, LTE 100+ bucks
<mvaenskae>
DocScrutinizer05: thanks :)
<mvaenskae>
i am still sane and reasoble therefore
<DocScrutinizer05>
OMAP5 SoC module wouldn't be much cheaper, I guess
<mvaenskae>
i wonder how crushed he will be once getting the price thrown at him the poor poor soul :(
<DocScrutinizer05>
LCD minimum 20..30
<mvaenskae>
do you know by chance how many pandroas have been sold and what the numbers on the pyra are?
<mvaenskae>
in terms of people interested in buying
<DocScrutinizer05>
1GByte RAM is 1GByte RAM is 1GByte...
<DocScrutinizer05>
nope, sorry
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think pandory must be a few thousands
<DocScrutinizer05>
pandora*
<mvaenskae>
the neo900 needs the same support :(
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm?
che1 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
<mvaenskae>
more people buying and supporting :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm already quite happy with our ~400 preorders
<mvaenskae>
i am the only one in my linux group 'insane' enough to have preordered the neo900 :)
<mvaenskae>
and i will be a happy camper recieving it
<DocScrutinizer05>
how much was N900 in Nokia store? 599?
<mvaenskae>
btw, will you upon finalization have a webpage where all documentation on the chips is mirrored?
<mvaenskae>
i believe it was 599 in finland
<wpwrak>
mvaenskae: copyright would prevent us from doing that. but stay tuned ... ;-)
<mvaenskae>
wpwrak: i was mostly trying to ensure that the documentation of the chips is secured for the future :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
((<Oksana> Get external USB hub :) With external power source, too )) Neo900 can deliver 1000mA VBUS power
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: what i haven't told you yet: i also have a script that makes a local mirror of all the PDFs
<Oksana>
Hopefully, there will be a second batch of Neo900? To capitalise on the fact that the second batch of identical devices would need no R&D costs, and the first-batch customers would happily advertise their shiny new devices to everybody around?
<mvaenskae>
DocScrutinizer05: i can run 2 full power usb devices over the neo900? :o awesomesauce!
<wpwrak>
Oksana: a 2nd batch may have a lot more sourcing issues than the first. time is working against us there.
<Oksana>
:)
Humpelstilzchen has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
<Oksana>
Heh... About sourcing issues: dome sheets ?
<wpwrak>
yeah, that sort of stuff
xes has quit [Quit: Going offline...]
<Oksana>
What else? Dome sheets are already extremely difficult to obtain; what is possible to obtain now, and will be impossible to obtain, say, after 01/01/2015 ?
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: actually, what's the prognosis there ? do you think we'll be able to trickle-buy them in sufficient quantity ? or will we have to find a way to either replace them or to recycle old ones ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
nope
<wpwrak>
Oksana: that question has no easy answer ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
we might try a few more bulk purchases. Trickle-buy is no option obviously
<DocScrutinizer05>
replace is it, I guess
<Oksana>
Is there a way to re-use a dome-sheet from an old N900, then? Or is it more risky than recharging a non-chargeable alkaline battery?
<Oksana>
Replace with what?
<DocScrutinizer05>
either find some manuf who builds them for us, or make a "DIY your domesheet" session
<wpwrak>
(replace) okay. not nice but that's what i suspected we'll end up with in the end
<mvaenskae>
diy it is likely
<wpwrak>
may also give us a bit more flexibility for some bits
<DocScrutinizer05>
steel dome arrays are available
<DocScrutinizer05>
we need to place a light spreader over them
<mvaenskae>
i wonder if microsoft would mind selling the n900 docs
<DocScrutinizer05>
eventually have 1000 overhead foils printed in a laser printer with white tonner
<DocScrutinizer05>
toner
<Oksana>
[That sentence is something to be remembered] I wonder if Microsoft would mind selling the documentation for Nokia N900
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: btw, did you ask snaptron for that lovely free samples box ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
nope, didn't even know of such box
<mvaenskae>
Oksana: i mean what is microsoft doing with the n900? nothing
<DocScrutinizer05>
that sentence makes no sense to me
AndrewX192 has joined #neo900
<mvaenskae>
mine?
<Oksana>
? Nokia owned documentation for Nokia N900. Nokia sold all its mobile assets to Microsoft. Microsoft is not going to support or manufacture (right?) Nokia's old models (such as Nokia N900). Therefore, would Microsoft be so kind and sell documentation it does not need, to people interested in buying it? Documentation: user manual, service manual, specifications, list of parts and materials,...
<Oksana>
...whole guide how-to-manufacture-N900, including licence to use patents without being sued
nox- has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<wpwrak>
Oksana: M% want to sell Windows phones. so why help the competition ?
<Oksana>
Microsoft is no competition for N900/Neo900. Microsoft is too different. For example: Microsoft does not use pulseaudio, right?
<Oksana>
Microsoft would not make a phone with qwerty hw keyboard?
<Oksana>
But, still, they may think that by making open-phones more difficult to produce, they are forcing customers to buy closed-phones. Who know their logic...
<freemangordon>
unfortunately it is too late here to start with those 3 missing functions today, will do tomorrow :)
<jonwil>
nice, means we have a clone of the EAP code that is actually faster than stock using GCC rather than armcc
<freemangordon>
yep
<jonwil>
That said, that neon stuff was hand-written ASM or intrinsincs and not armcc output per what jusa_ said
<mvaenskae>
btw, are there any goo low level development tools that are used for embedded development?
<freemangordon>
I will add .a file with all the objects compiled with 4.7.2
<freemangordon>
jonwil: yeah
<freemangordon>
hand-written iiuc
<jonwil>
so basically compiling with 4.2.1 is slower than stock?
<freemangordon>
only one function
<freemangordon>
all others are faster or on par
<jonwil>
you should compare the ASM output of 4.2.1 vs 4.7.2 for the functions that use the NEON intrinsics and see why its doing worse in 4.2.1 than in 4.7.2
<freemangordon>
I guess we just got bitten is some bug in 4.2.1 optimizer
<jonwil>
hmmm ok
<mvaenskae>
DocScrutinizer05: out of interest, how portable is the code developed for the ti dm3730 to current flagship cpus by ti?
<freemangordon>
the instructions are the same and it is hard to tell how the scheduling differs
<mvaenskae>
/s/to/for/
<jonwil>
wierd
<freemangordon>
that function is not exactly simple, actually it is the longest NEON-opt function I REed so far
<jonwil>
Is 4.7.2 faster than 4.2.1 on other functions other than that last one?
<freemangordon>
I guess, but didn;t benchmark
<jonwil>
ok
<jonwil>
that said why not just do what Nokia did originally and use inline ASM instead of intrinsincs, that way the scheduler problems dont come into it
<jonwil>
or does GCC 4.2.1 not do NEON inline ASM or something?
<freemangordon>
because you can never beat a good compiler
<freemangordon>
also, it is harder to write ASM than intrinsics
<jonwil>
in what way? My experience of inline ASM is that its not that hard to write if you have the ASM you want already
<jonwil>
Or is there something magic about NEON inline ASM that I dont get?
<freemangordon>
well, I really hate gcc ASM syntax :)
<freemangordon>
nothing special
<jonwil>
yeah now I remember, GCC inline ASM was a pain in the ass
<jonwil>
most of my inline ASM experience is with x86 ASM in Visual Studio
<jonwil>
where its sane and easy
<freemangordon>
jonwil: and it turned out that even 4.2.1(excluding that one function) optimizes better than hand-written ASM
<jonwil>
yep
<freemangordon>
ooh, VS ASM is another beer
<freemangordon>
but even on x86 we can't oversmart the compiler, it was long ago that was possible
Humpelstilzchen has joined #neo900
mvaenskae has quit [Quit: leaving]
<freemangordon>
the only way one can do that is to have CPU pipeline simulator, but I guess it is not possible to have one for cortex-A8 around :)
<jonwil>
In saying all this, instead of storing object code in GIT, lets just require GCC 4.7.2 going forward for this new NeoFremantle work (on both Neo900 and N900). Anyone who is going to be running the pulseaudio-nokia clone work is going to be running something risky in the first place and the upgrading of gcc (including libgcc, libstdc++ etc) is comparable in risk IMO
<freemangordon>
well...
<freemangordon>
I still have n900 and CSSU in mind
<jonwil>
pulseaudio-nokia is far too risky for CSSU
<freemangordon>
why is that?
<jonwil>
For N900 I see 3 different things
<jonwil>
I see CSSU-stable (stable well tested things)
<freemangordon>
because of xprot?
<jonwil>
CSSU-testing (things that are riskier but beneficial)
<jonwil>
Or for CSSU-testing its also for things not yet tested enough for CSSU-stable
<jonwil>
and NeoFremantle/whatever where we go ahead and bring in the high risk things like the MCE clone
<jonwil>
or the Pulseaudio-Nokia clone
<freemangordon>
could you define high-risk, please
<freemangordon>
we want to put a kernel in CSSU
<freemangordon>
isn't that the most risky SW we can distribute
<freemangordon>
?
<freemangordon>
anyway, my point is:
<jonwil>
Kernel isn't risky because its the same code Nokia used plus safe well-tested/understood patches to it
<jonwil>
New kernel gives benefits to end-users
<freemangordon>
and what is the difference with mce and PA? if it is well tested, why should we kkep it for foss-fremantle only?
<Oksana>
phones: Apple (iPhone), Blackberry (RIM), Banana (Nokia 8110; see Matrix), Orange (E200)...
<jonwil>
Same applies to upgrading GCC
<freemangordon>
jonwil: imagine how a speedup of 10-15% in PA code will affect the battery life while playing audio. also, it will become possible to have working audio subsystem with upstream kernel
<freemangordon>
etc.
<jonwil>
Speedup sure
<jonwil>
but nothing in pulseaudio-nokia is dependent on specific kernel interfaces not in upstream IIRC (except the cellular modem audio interface)
<jonwil>
If libgcc, libstdc++ etc are upgraded in CSSU-devel or foss-fremantle and well tested, we can put those in CSSU-Testing eventually just like PulseAudio
<freemangordon>
sure, but I prefer to not put hard dependency on 4.7.2, at least initially
<jonwil>
i.e. my point is that the overall risk level of shipping our Pulseaudio-Nokia clones is exactly the same risk level of switching to GCC 4.7.2 in terms of risk of breaking other things
<freemangordon>
sure
<freemangordon>
but -thumb proves that sometimes it worths to take a risk ;)
<freemangordon>
anyway, we're still far from that decision-making point :)
<jonwil>
so yeah I much prefer making pulseaudio-nokia dependent on GCC 4.7.2 than sticking a few GCC 4.7.2-compiles .o files in GIT and compiling the rest with GCC 4.2.1
<freemangordon>
as we still don't have the -voice module :P
<freemangordon>
however, tomorrow I'll try to stick all the pieces together for -record module
<freemangordon>
includng .debs etc
<freemangordon>
now going to have some sleep, night guys
obsed has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
<DocScrutinizer05>
Oksana: mvaPretty please do NOT approach M$ with such nonsensical request. A) all user manuals and schematics are public, B) *nobody* in industry provides internal operation instructions, and C) no way M$ will sell or allow to use patents they acquird from Nokia or any other way
<Oksana>
mvaenskae has left like, a hour ago :) Yes, no problem, not going to approach Microsoft about anything. A) Microsoft lack goodwill, afaik. B) Neo900 will have its own service manuals, and hopefully, much more open, C) Patents expire, with time, or something better is created
jonwil has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91 [SeaMonkey 2.30/20141013232806]]
jonwil has joined #neo900
MonkeyofDoom has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
wicket64 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
MonkeyofDoom has joined #neo900
jonwil has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
krobelus_ has joined #neo900
obsed has joined #neo900
svree4 has joined #neo900
krobelus_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
krobelus_ has joined #neo900
jonwil has joined #neo900
modem has joined #neo900
modem has quit [Changing host]
modem has joined #neo900
paulk-aldrin has joined #neo900
freemangordon_ has joined #neo900
krobelus_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
mvaenskae has joined #neo900
Kabouik has joined #neo900
che1 has joined #neo900
krobelus_ has joined #neo900
krobelus_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
arcean has joined #neo900
paulk-aldrin has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
paulk-aldrin has joined #neo900
krobelus_ has joined #neo900
krobelus_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, you *could* tune it down, with a resonator chamber
<DocScrutinizer05>
200Hz f0, so it should work for 100..400
<DocScrutinizer05>
~330/200
<infobot>
1.65
<DocScrutinizer05>
a tad long a transmission line, even for lambda/4
<DocScrutinizer05>
40cm :-/
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe could get it down to 20 with reducing sound velocity in tube
<wpwrak>
warning: use only above 4000 m ASL ;-))
<DocScrutinizer05>
nah, rock wool
<wpwrak>
how boring :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
"warning! wear protective hepa filter mask when disassembling"
<bencoh>
:)
<DocScrutinizer05>
~weather eddn
<infobot>
Nuernberg, Germany; (EDDN) 49-30N 011-03E 318M; last updated: 2014.10.28 1520 UTC; Dew Point: 39 F (4 C); Pressure (altimeter): 30.09 in. Hg (1019 hPa); Relative Humidity: 81%; Temperature: 44 F (7 C); Visibility: greater than 7 mile(s); Wind: from the S (190 degrees) at 3 MPH (3 KT) (direction variable)
<DocScrutinizer05>
BRRR!
<DocScrutinizer05>
o/ bbl
<wpwrak>
hah ! there's a case making the news in argentina these days where a kid put some colored powder (called purpurin) into a whistle, but didn't think of not inhaling through the whistle. apparently that power contains pretty much everything you absolutely don't ever want in your lungs ...
<wpwrak>
yeah i'm not sure it's used in the same way. they gave a long list of unfriendly metals that were mixed into it. they said it was basically the same stuff that's used to paint cars, just in powder form.
<wpwrak>
or should i say "that robots use to paint cars" because it seems kinda unpleasant for humans to be in that area
<DocScrutinizer05>
I bet you got reminded to purpurin case when I said "rock wool"
<wpwrak>
when you said "protective hepa filter" :)
delphi has quit []
trx has joined #neo900
trx has joined #neo900
modem has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
Fartbot has joined #neo900
<Fartbot>
Just look at n900exus10 omg i dont know how that supposed to work ??
<Fartbot>
Btw that dosent look cool
<Fartbot>
N900 n9 does have that distinct look and yeah with no butts on front
<Fartbot>
Actually i got no clue how those two mate ??
<Fartbot>
Is farting now
<Fartbot>
That idea makes me fart aloud :p
Fartbot has quit [Quit: jmIrc destroyed by the OS]
Nokiabot has joined #neo900
b1101 has quit [Quit: b1101]
<Nokiabot>
Aha now proper id
<Nokiabot>
Btw didnt anybody here saw the n900exus10 thread on tmo ??
<Nokiabot>
is pondering
<DocScrutinizer05>
meh, no
<Nokiabot>
Soon there would be a neo900competitors.org lol al with awakard slide in out pop in out replacements :p
<DocScrutinizer05>
sounds like "my dream device. ...and it will have lazors and a nuclear power supply"
<Nokiabot>
Docscrutnizer05:what are you waiting for ? Invitation ??
<DocScrutinizer05>
huh?
<Nokiabot>
Lol
<bencoh>
wtf is this thing
<DocScrutinizer05>
bencoh: fools
<DocScrutinizer05>
fools with no clue
<DocScrutinizer05>
no idea really, since I don't follow tmo except for neo900 subforum
<Nokiabot>
Aha looks like doc got food for thought/rants :p
<DocScrutinizer05>
and even there new threads only get noticed once a day
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, about why Nokiabot spams the channel
<DocScrutinizer05>
doing real work unless getting distracted by such nonsense
<Nokiabot>
Err not spamming there is a geniune thread there :)
<Nokiabot>
Ok fine
Nokiabot has quit [Quit: jmIrc destroyed by the OS]
<astr>
how well do tab winder managers work with windows automatically maximised? do you get a panel-like bar of window tabs with close buttions on them?
Nokiabot has joined #neo900
Nokiabot has quit [Client Quit]
<DocScrutinizer05>
ECHAN?
Nokiabot has joined #neo900
<Nokiabot>
N900exus10 was a yet to be dezined hoax lol btw i stoned him to death already :p
<DocScrutinizer05>
fine! :-D
<Nokiabot>
Docscrutinizer05 was ri8 :' fools who dont have any clue': lol
<DocScrutinizer05>
was that a user called Estel_ ?
<Nokiabot>
Na pytoneye registerd may 2014 :p
<DocScrutinizer05>
mhm
<DocScrutinizer05>
not in Neo900 subforum I suppose
<Nokiabot>
Ah i didt check that
* DocScrutinizer05
ignores rest of ~tmo
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually always did, more or less
<ilon>
dos1: "we're just at the beginning of this journey." might be updated to something like "we're still working hard on getting this device to production"?
<ilon>
dos1: and later in the same paragraph: "..and then produce at least 200 units (reached!)." might be changed slightly to something more like "and then reach at least 200 pre-orders to be able to start production (reached!)"?
<ilon>
dos1: I cant really formulate properly at the moment (just got home from the "gym" / club), but it seems like those sentences are a little bit missleading.
louisdk has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
krobelus_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
xes has joined #neo900
<ilon>
jusa_: Nice to see you joined, welcome! :)
b1101 has joined #neo900
b1101 has quit [Client Quit]
Oxyd76 has joined #neo900
freemangordon has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
<wpwrak>
Oksana: i think DocScrutinizer05 sent an inquiry about that to snaptron, no waiting for a reaction
<Oksana>
now* :)
<wpwrak>
and i'm not sure how the MFD16 would fit. well, maybe in vibrator-only mode. but for use as some sort speaker, we'd need to make changes well below our reach
<Oksana>
Thank you!
<wpwrak>
ah yes, now :)
<Oksana>
From -40 Celsius to +85 Celsius ... Nice vibrator.
che1 has joined #neo900
<Oksana>
How is vibrator connected to mainboard of Neo900? :)
jonwil has joined #neo900
<jonwil>
freemangordon: ping
Pali has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
che1 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
<Oksana>
Ok, vibrator is connected to TWL4030 chip in Neo900...
<freemangordon>
jonwil: pong
<freemangordon>
jonwil: first result for the record module - assert in eap_long_multiplications.h :)