<Joerg-Neo900>
the very recent situation is that Ahycka plans to start layout in less than 2 weeks
<Joerg-Neo900>
((lot of text)) yes, I hoped for how900 to prepare a newspost from the relevant parts
<rapha>
i see
<rapha>
so, "sometime during the first half of 2017"
<rapha>
that's good enough for me :)
<Joerg-Neo900>
it's just until 10:31 incl
<rapha>
yeah, then it's about RMS
<Joerg-Neo900>
sorry for the obsolete "info" in shop
* rapha
puts his N900 back together
<rapha>
no probs. i was just wondering if, at some point in the future, the NeoN boards will become available
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<rapha>
say Joerg-Neo900, do you have an idea what the min battery voltage is for the N900 to be able to boot?
<Joerg-Neo900>
around 3.3V iirc
<Joerg-Neo900>
though it will shut down immediately at that voltage, you want 3,5V minimum
<rapha>
okay, then that's the reason it won't boot anymore. after a night of charging, it's at 3.01V only
<Joerg-Neo900>
ouch
<rapha>
and what is that slighting switch on the right side of the phone?
<Joerg-Neo900>
~bootloop
<infobot>
somebody said bootloop was when your device has broken rootfilesystem, so during reboot it fails on some service startup or kernel module load and thus reboots. This *drains* battery! And you can't reflash to stop bootloop when battery is drained. Recharge your battery by other means before reflashing. E.g. using ~rescueOS. Or external charger or BL-5J compatible other device.
* rapha
orders a new battery on amazon
<rapha>
oh
<Joerg-Neo900>
the sliding switch is the lock switch to lock/unlock the screen and kbd
<rapha>
it indeed doesn't boot ... every couple of minutes there's a vibration
<Joerg-Neo900>
and touchscreen
<rapha>
ah okay ... it's not documented on the wikipedia page
<Joerg-Neo900>
it's like the usual android short powerbutton press
<rapha>
do you think i can charge the battery by monkey-patching a standard nokia charger onto it?
<Joerg-Neo900>
basically yes
<rapha>
and i take it that the center pin is mass?
<rapha>
actually, the left and the center one both seem to be mass
<Joerg-Neo900>
connecting the battery to a 5V MAXIMUM 1A power supply for MAXIMUM 1h under *permanent close monitoring" for temperature rise may work
<Joerg-Neo900>
left is BSI, a 80kR to GND
<Joerg-Neo900>
middle is GND
<rapha>
hmm i only have 860mA available anyways. or i could use the 250mA charger which might be safer i guess
<Joerg-Neo900>
yes, much better
<rapha>
okay
<rapha>
what does BSI stand for?
<Joerg-Neo900>
I generally don't recommend to do this, it's really gambling and you only should do this when you're technically affine
<Joerg-Neo900>
Battery Size Indicator
<rapha>
oh cool
<Joerg-Neo900>
the value of the resistor supposed to tell the design capacity
<rapha>
well i just took the whole phone apart and put it back together so i'd attest myself a modest level of affinity :)
<Joerg-Neo900>
yep
<rapha>
wow that's smart ... because you know the resistance you're able to tell the capacity
<Joerg-Neo900>
that's why I said "you might do it, under *permanent* monitoring
<Joerg-Neo900>
for N900 it's sort of silly since there are no alternative batteries with different size defined
<rapha>
i've just ordered a new battery anyways, so i'll give it a try. and since you seem to be hinting at the danger of an explosion i guess i'll put it into a solid cooking pot
<Joerg-Neo900>
good plan :-D
<rapha>
:)
<rapha>
on the maemo forums there's a guy who claims to have built a larger battery for himself
<infobot>
hmm... bootloop is when your device has broken rootfilesystem, so during reboot it fails on some service startup or kernel module load and thus reboots. This *drains* battery! And you can't reflash to stop bootloop when battery is drained. Recharge your battery by other means before reflashing. E.g. using ~rescueOS. Or external charger or BL-5J compatible other device.
<Joerg-Neo900>
yes, there are larger batteries e.g. also of Mugen. But they are not defined in the device firmware
<rapha>
yeah, no usb connectivity, no rescueos. so battery power first.
<Joerg-Neo900>
no usb connectivity? broken?
<rapha>
i don't think so ... it seems to be just because the phone can
<Joerg-Neo900>
you may load rescueos to ram since the bootloader (NOLO) does the initial charging until battery voltage is supposedly high enough to boot into linux OS
<rapha>
't boot because it's not got power
<rapha>
but so you're saying it should work even without a battery?
<Joerg-Neo900>
in that moment it tries to boot and kicks vibrator
<Joerg-Neo900>
no, N900 needs battery to boot
<Joerg-Neo900>
but it can load rescueos even with totally depeleted battery, since the bootloader will do the initial charging to sufficient level
<rapha>
okay, so when you have "flasher-3.5 --read-device-id" in waiting, it should briefly show something in the moment when it kicks the vibrator?
<Joerg-Neo900>
so as long as at least your bootloader is still intact (hardly ever heard of it getting messed up) you will be able to charge with rescueos
<Joerg-Neo900>
yes
<Joerg-Neo900>
probably even before
<rapha>
in that case the USB must be having a problem. but when i had the mainboard in front of me it looked physically stable and fine :(
<Joerg-Neo900>
read-device-id is not depening on booting the linux, so NOLO will answer that even before charging reached a sufficient level
<Joerg-Neo900>
to check USB watch your PC linux syslog/dmesg while plugging in B900
<rapha>
yeah i did that and it kept connecting/disconnecting
<Joerg-Neo900>
dead battery
<rapha>
hmm. makes sense. but then you said even with the dead battery flasher should recognize the phone, even if only briefly?
<Joerg-Neo900>
~flatbatrecover
<infobot>
Remove battery for 1 minute. Insert battery. Plug powered ***NOKIA WALLCHARGER*** to device. Watch steady amber. Let sit and charge. Do NOT try to boot. After 30 min, you got either a) a booted up N900, b) flashing amber which means you can boot, c) steady amber shut off -> start over again with ~flatbatrecover while already searching for a new battery. CAVEAT! Only works when ~rootfs OK (no ~bootloop)
<rapha>
ah! so dead battery + boot loop = no dice. fair enough.
<rapha>
this phone was sort of a gift from my uncle who basically had it sitting in his desk drawer for 4-5 years. so it'd be surprising it if was still working anywas.
<rapha>
+y
<Joerg-Neo900>
battery most definitely dead if it was inserted
<rapha>
yup it was. he got the phone back in the day when the company he was working for was providing fabs for Nokia. but then he changed to another company who was working for another mobile manufacturer so he had to carry one of their phones around with him and the nokia was condemned to the drawer.
<rapha>
i wonder if this thing has a special serial number or anything...
<rapha>
wow, the voltmeter shows 9V for the supposedly 5V power supply.
<Joerg-Neo900>
hehe
<rapha>
well here goes nothing
<Joerg-Neo900>
that's probably actually a good thing since it means it has high effective impedance
<Joerg-Neo900>
but I decalre this battery beyond all revival
<Joerg-Neo900>
never recharge a LiIon that was deep discjatged below ABS MIN voltage
<rapha>
3.5V w/ the battery attached
<Joerg-Neo900>
which is around 2,x Volt
* rapha
is bored and wants to play around with stuff
<Joerg-Neo900>
deep discharged LiIon are dead per definition
<Joerg-Neo900>
you may try but please be aware of the increased risk of cell shorts etc
<rapha>
hmm might as well put the battery in line with the multimeter to see what amps it draws
<Joerg-Neo900>
your battery turned into a tiny bomb and nobody knows about how hairy the trigger
<Joerg-Neo900>
good plan agaon :-)
<rapha>
no worries the cooking pot is gonna hold unless the put nitroglycerin in those cells ;)
<Joerg-Neo900>
though the way more interesting value is cell volatge which MUST NOT go beyond 4.2V
<Joerg-Neo900>
steer clear of the fumes, they contain HF
<rapha>
cell voltage, i.e. of one of the cells? i can't measure that without opening the battery up. how many cells does it have?
<Joerg-Neo900>
when battery vents
<Joerg-Neo900>
one cell
<Joerg-Neo900>
LiIon cell chemistry is 3.7V
<rapha>
nice, so just keep the multimeter attached in parallel
<Joerg-Neo900>
I suggest stopping charging at 4.0V or even a tad earlier
<rapha>
still 3.5...
<Joerg-Neo900>
it will linger there for quite a while, and the longer the better
<rapha>
okay
<rapha>
so if the phone charges the battery, what values does it control? voltage and time as well?
<Joerg-Neo900>
it will go up to 3.7around relatively soon, and eventually rise rather sharp to 4V
<Joerg-Neo900>
CC/CV
<Joerg-Neo900>
no more than 800mA, no more than 4.2V
<Joerg-Neo900>
charge end defined as current falling under a certain threshold of iirc ~20mA
<Joerg-Neo900>
actually 4.2V is pushing things, make that 4.1V
<Joerg-Neo900>
if you want to test battery health, attach a load to draw maybe 200mA and probe the instantaneous voltage drop this causes
<rapha>
with a 100% healthy battery, what would the drop be?
<Joerg-Neo900>
I'd say less than a 200mV
<rapha>
nice numbers for a rule of thumb
<Joerg-Neo900>
take them with a grain of salt, they are not verified by actual tests, just my guts feeling
<Joerg-Neo900>
a healthy battery however should be able to provide 2A bursts and still stay within voltage range (>3.4V)
<rapha>
gut feeling = helpful
Pali has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<Joerg-Neo900>
2A since that's what a GSM modem will pull during the TX bursts - those are a fraction of a second
<rapha>
2A?!!!
<rapha>
wow!!!
<Joerg-Neo900>
yep
<rapha>
what about LTE modems then?
<Joerg-Neo900>
LTE doesn't do bursts but cw
<Joerg-Neo900>
so it's lower
<Joerg-Neo900>
afaik
<rapha>
hmm
<rapha>
2A must translate to quite a bit of microwave radiation in the close proximity. perhaps the people who claim electrosensibility have somewhat of a valid claim after all.
<rapha>
do you have any idea how much the N900 pulls trying to boot?
<Joerg-Neo900>
that's also why you don't hear the Zzzzzzzz....Zzz...Zzz...Zzzz from amps and radios and other audio equipment when you place a phone near it that is on a call via UMTS or LTE, only via GSM aka 2G you hear that
<Joerg-Neo900>
yes, GSM PERP is rather high
<Joerg-Neo900>
((boot)) not that much, until it tries to register with cellular and thus modem does TX
<Joerg-Neo900>
maybe a 300mA max
<Joerg-Neo900>
most for LCD backlight I guess
<rapha>
not such bad chances then
<rapha>
it's at 4.07 now btw
<Joerg-Neo900>
hmm, battery dead, yeah
<Joerg-Neo900>
you can still use it to boot but it won't power N900 for longer than a feeble few hours
<rapha>
doesn't matter, like i said, new battery's on its way
<Joerg-Neo900>
:nod:
<rapha>
so the healthier the battery, the lower the voltage it plateaus at during charging
<rapha>
~flatbatrecover
<infobot>
Remove battery for 1 minute. Insert battery. Plug powered ***NOKIA WALLCHARGER*** to device. Watch steady amber. Let sit and charge. Do NOT try to boot. After 30 min, you got either a) a booted up N900, b) flashing amber which means you can boot, c) steady amber shut off -> start over again with ~flatbatrecover while already searching for a new battery. CAVEAT! Only works when ~rootfs OK (no ~bootloop)
<Joerg-Neo900>
yes, due to impedance
<rapha>
"after 30 min you got [...] a booted up N900": meaning you're not supposed to press the power button?
<rapha>
4.1
<rapha>
and 3.91 without the charger
<rapha>
no deformities, no heat, no smell
<Joerg-Neo900>
depends on a few setting in NOLO, generally you may try to unlock the device (slide switch) and when that doesn't do anything press the power button until it responds
<Joerg-Neo900>
yeah, 25% of capacity left in that one
<Joerg-Neo900>
does the battery feel 'elasity' when you squeeze it with your fingers?
<Joerg-Neo900>
elastic*
<rapha>
okay, battery back in the phone, laptop plugged into the USB, nothing happening so far. the amber briefly flashed up when i plugged in the USB
<rapha>
let me test
<rapha>
nope, it feels solid
<Joerg-Neo900>
good
<Joerg-Neo900>
though I still consider it dead
<rapha>
:)
<rapha>
be most welcome *G*
<Joerg-Neo900>
please do the following:
<Joerg-Neo900>
remove battery
<Joerg-Neo900>
plug in charger or worst case PC usb for power source
<Joerg-Neo900>
slide open
<rapha>
2A charger good?
<Joerg-Neo900>
press and hold "Q"
<Joerg-Neo900>
while holding q insert battery
<rapha>
okay
<Joerg-Neo900>
yes, 2A is absolutely fine IF it has the D+/- short to signal it's a charger
<Joerg-Neo900>
many non-Nokia chargers don't
<rapha>
oh. no idea. and nothing tiny enough to probe it. i'll get my samsung charger then.
<Joerg-Neo900>
the charging in N900 depends on this signalling
<rapha>
(i've a powercube attached to the desk)
<Joerg-Neo900>
SAMSUNG most likely doesn't do _this_ type of charger-signaling
<Joerg-Neo900>
they prolly do the R network trick
<rapha>
pj
<rapha>
oh
<Joerg-Neo900>
when trying to charge N900 with a charger that doesn't do the D+/- short, the N900 will only draw a 100mA max which is too low to charge at all since the device takes more than it gets
<rapha>
i also have kazam, huawei, hp and something ... else on offer
<rapha>
all 1A
<Joerg-Neo900>
anyway for the test suggested above, any USB power source will do
<rapha>
let's go with the kazam...
<Joerg-Neo900>
actually you should use PC for that test
<rapha>
ur, but PC has no D+/- short
<Joerg-Neo900>
the result *should* be NOKIA screen with USB symbol
<rapha>
k
<rapha>
noooothing happening
<Joerg-Neo900>
o.O
<rapha>
some websites say U, not Q
<Joerg-Neo900>
ooops sorry yes
<Joerg-Neo900>
I'm feeling like half asleep today
<rapha>
still naught
<rapha>
i'll try the sliding switch and the power button
<Joerg-Neo900>
you need to remove battery and USB to restart the test
<rapha>
aha now there was the vibrator again, nokia logo, no backlight, briefly a usb sign in the upper right corner
<Joerg-Neo900>
good
<rapha>
but pressing U, nothing
<Joerg-Neo900>
*iirc* when it doesn't stay that means the battery is too weak
<Joerg-Neo900>
no you need to press and hold U
<Joerg-Neo900>
before inserting battery
<rapha>
yes i did that
<Joerg-Neo900>
so NOLO detects U and stays in flashing mode which means the USB logo on NOKIA screen
<rapha>
i need to find some good load to test the battery with
<Joerg-Neo900>
if it doesn't stay in flashing mode then *iirc* that means the battery is too low voltage for flashing and it tries to boot into linux
<Joerg-Neo900>
or even tries charging by itself until the minimum voltage for linux boot reached
<Joerg-Neo900>
start flasher with the 'get device id' parameter, then plug in the device without battery, then insert battery
<rapha>
hah!
<rapha>
USB device found found at bus 002, device address 015.
<rapha>
ah, four 1.2V NiCD's in a row would be 3.6V ... that might work
<rapha>
three i mean
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<Joerg-Neo900>
yeah, they make for pretty decent chargers, set to U=4.13V and I_limit=800mA
<rapha>
woah!
<rapha>
i still have the kazam's Li-Ion
<rapha>
2500mAh of 3.7V-y goodness
<Joerg-Neo900>
should work :-)
<rapha>
it's a LiPo though
<Joerg-Neo900>
doesn't matter
<rapha>
and at 0,00V after all that time :(
<Joerg-Neo900>
ouch, so dead too
<rapha>
yeah when a phone breaks i like to keep the battery, but ofc you don't really use them then
<Joerg-Neo900>
*NEVER* deep-discharge LiIon to below 2.4V
<rapha>
you don't have to, the air does it for you
<Joerg-Neo900>
sort of, yes, over the years
<Joerg-Neo900>
that's why batteries need a recharge twice a year
<Joerg-Neo900>
it's not "the air" but cell's own leakage current
<Joerg-Neo900>
aka self-discharge
<rapha>
i'll use them as an exercise in some more cooking-pot-based manual charging
<rapha>
hmm don't you think 1cm living room air (>50% humidity probably) has < infinity resistance?
<Joerg-Neo900>
not really
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<Joerg-Neo900>
the resistance of air is incredibly high
<Joerg-Neo900>
basically infinite
<rapha>
new thing learned: LED with built-in resistor rated for 12V doesn't pull the N900 battery down from 3.8V, not one bit
<rapha>
(best load i can find)
<Joerg-Neo900>
I suggest to give lazy-flashing a try with this partially charged supposedly dead batery, it should just work
<rapha>
oh another blue one without resistance ... brings it down .02
<rapha>
okay
<Joerg-Neo900>
you might need to install the usb-32bit compatibility lib stuff
<rapha>
already installed, otherwise the flasher .deb wouldn't have installed
<Joerg-Neo900>
alas it's not very common to be found preinstalled on recent distros anymore
<Joerg-Neo900>
hah, right
<Joerg-Neo900>
I tried some tricks to cope with that problem too, but it's not easy to fix it in an OS-agnostic way
<rapha>
nowadays when everybody can have a linux in a window, who cares much...
<rapha>
that script looks nice btw, it's downloading stuff now
<Joerg-Neo900>
:-)
<rapha>
wow, the samsung battery has been out of use for half a year, too, and it still has 2V on the BSI, 4V on the main o_O
<rapha>
need to solder some cables on to be able to use it though
<Joerg-Neo900>
usually self discharge of LiIon should be pretty low, when it's a good quality cell
<Joerg-Neo900>
they should still have considerable charge left after 2 and 3 years
<Joerg-Neo900>
however if the separator membrane is pierced (tiniest dust or whatever in fab) then self discharge quickly skyrockets
<Joerg-Neo900>
deep discharge and overcharging also may pierce the membrane afaik
<rapha>
and the LiPo of the Kazam? it was always really strong and has been out of use for less than a year, too. perhaps its self discharge characteristics are different...
<Joerg-Neo900>
if it's even a _true_ LiPo (not a LiIon in a polymer sack) then the cell chemistry and characteristics are quite different, and quite possibly higher self discharge than LiIon standard
<rapha>
hmm. it does say "Li-Polymer battery" on the outside.
* rapha
solders cables on all of the old batteries
<Joerg-Neo900>
so the flasher didn't notice the device?
<rapha>
nah and it's not turning on at all anymore
<Joerg-Neo900>
it *sometimes* occasionally fails to detect the N900
<rapha>
i think the battery is more bust than it shows with the multimeter
<Joerg-Neo900>
oooh
<Joerg-Neo900>
yeah
<Joerg-Neo900>
just one tip: do NOT solder to the gold blade contacts in N900, you never get them cleaned again and solder makes for a very bad surface
<rapha>
i just wanna stick them in without solder
<Joerg-Neo900>
the tin and lead will amalgamate the gold
<rapha>
the soldering was to attach the wires to the battery
<Joerg-Neo900>
:nod: just saying
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<rapha>
thanks :)
<Joerg-Neo900>
soldering to gold surface is a sure fire way to ruin it
<Joerg-Neo900>
on massive gold you may polish away the amalgamated few micrometers
<Joerg-Neo900>
not on gold plated steel or copper though
<Joerg-Neo900>
well, you can but then the gold is gone ;-)
<rapha>
how do you even know something like this? o_O
<Joerg-Neo900>
hehe, I'm a very old grunpy fart
<Joerg-Neo900>
seen thinks you wouldn't want to ever see
<Joerg-Neo900>
things*
<rapha>
lol
<rapha>
melted gold for example?
<Joerg-Neo900>
ruined gold plating, yes
<rapha>
i'm not enough of a chemist to be scared by that i guess :}
<Joerg-Neo900>
has a very nasty look/color and pretty poor electrical performance
<Joerg-Neo900>
the gold plating is supposed to be hard and oxide free. With lead and tin in the mix that changes pretty much
<Joerg-Neo900>
at least that's what I deduced from what I've seen
<rapha>
(recently discovered though how useful sulfuric acid granules and boiling water are for cleaning cooking pans)
<Joerg-Neo900>
o.O
<rapha>
need to be _really_ careful though
<Joerg-Neo900>
don't you mean sidium oxide?
<Joerg-Neo900>
sodium*
<rapha>
i mean go-devil, basically
<rapha>
i think it really is sulfuric acid
<Joerg-Neo900>
I dunno how sulfuric acid could form granule
<rapha>
i.e. drain cleaner
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<Joerg-Neo900>
that's soduim oxide ;-)
<rapha>
oh
<rapha>
wikipedia wrong again then: "Acid drain cleaners usually contain sulfuric acid at high concentrations.[2] It can dissolve cellulose, proteins like hair, and fats via hydrolysis."
<rapha>
oh no, me
<rapha>
"Alkaline drain openers primarily contain sodium hydroxide and some may contain potassium hydroxide. They may appear in liquid or solid form."
<rapha>
so yeah, works wonders for burnt pans
<Joerg-Neo900>
:nod:
<Joerg-Neo900>
yes, it turns all faintly fat-alike substances into soap
<Joerg-Neo900>
doesn't help on mere carbon though, there sulfuric acid is better
<Joerg-Neo900>
i.e coal, paper, whatelse
<Joerg-Neo900>
sorry, finally afk
<Joerg-Neo900>
o/
<rapha>
sure
<rapha>
thank you for all the things you've shown me!