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* enyc meows
<enyc> clapont: olleh!
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<dos1> fyi: Purism just confirmed that Librem 5 will use PLS8 as its modem
<dos1> also, apparently NXP released a new "software stack" at the beginning of February, which fixes their power consumption and heating issues
<dos1> wth i.MX8M
<bencoh> oh!
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<slobber> oh how did i miss that post
<slobber> i feel like i've subscribed to notifications of that stuff
<slobber> that kinda looks like a very laggy experience
<dos1> I think it might be llvmpipe on the video, entaviv is apparently still pretty glitchy on the gc7000. I know that they have some fixes on a non-default branch though
<dos1> (that "software stack" seems to be 4.14 BSP kernel from NXP)
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<DocScrutinizer05> dos1: many thanks! :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> so they still didn't find any better modem than we have. Kinda sad, since the PLS8 is sort of sub-par meanwhile
<DocScrutinizer05> or maybe they simply copy Neo900 (or STEP2)
<atk> It's funny
<atk> I think I remember telling them that what they were promising to deliver was going to be very hard to do in their submission form for what people wanted in the phone.
<atk> Way back when
<dos1> their devkits used SIM7100
<atk> well, good luck to them
<dos1> btw. Gemalto offers now some new data-only modules like PLAS9, with higher speeds and USB 3.0. I guess it's a matter of time for PLS8 successor to arrive as well
<DocScrutinizer05> I thought PLS8 was going obsolete quite some time ago already, when they launcged their equivalent automotive-only series (might even be the PAS8 or somesuch). Anyway voicecalls vanisg as supported feature more and more
<DocScrutinizer05> so soon you will only be able to source data-obly modem modules, and SoCs with integrated great modem IP that are totally closed crap, aimed at smartphone manufs doing millions of devices
<norly> DocScrutinizer05: so the project could use a full phone SoC as a modem, and another SoC as the application processor - there, hardware separation (TM) ;)
<DocScrutinizer05> on top, the "ecosystem" at large has no alterative to bending over to Google's "mainframe computing" approach which does even voice recognition and map routing off-board
<DocScrutinizer05> norly: yes, in theory that would work
<DocScrutinizer05> maybe we should take advantage from this situation and actually design a gadget that's a *complete smartphone* tethered to a complete linux PC, in one shell
<DocScrutinizer05> keep the smartphone display in a window of the linux PC desktop, via VNC or whatever
<norly> a phone in a phone?
<DocScrutinizer05> if you like to put it that way.
<DocScrutinizer05> though I'd rather call it "a phone in a palmtop PC"
<DocScrutinizer05> anyway, I'm in a mental crisis with my definition of the threat model I want to protect against
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<DocScrutinizer05> example: not diclosing your contacts to google and whatsapp doesn't help you much since all your contacts already did disclose *you* as one of their contacts
<DocScrutinizer05> they did even when you refuse to use whatsapp
<norly> so it's all a lost cause? i don't think that's true - it's still nice to know that nobody can DMA your credentials out of your RAM, thanks to hardware separation
<DocScrutinizer05> sure
<DocScrutinizer05> but this alone doesn't create a sufficient momentum to develop and produce a device according to those standards
<DocScrutinizer05> except for the high security market, like governments, military, industry
<DocScrutinizer05> the problem isn't *I* think (or not think) it's a lost case. The problem is the masses think so, and want free (as in beer) great apps on cheap hardware, even when they pay by videorecording their bedroom every nigght
<norly> how about you offer two editions of the phone? one where you pay the proper price, and one where it's free, but it records their bedroom?
<varu> then you better monetize the bedroom recordings :(
<norly> after all, some people are happy to have cheaper phones in exchange or seeing ads on the lock screen
<norly> sure, monetizing them is the plan, isn't it?
<DocScrutinizer05> so what we got is a ecosystem where speech recognition is done on google's servers despite yur smartphone outperforms a top notch desktop PC of 8 years ago, while that massive computing power on your smartphone gets used to render silly GFX special effects, and getting exploited to mine bitcoins for rogue virus websites
<norly> anyway, let's not go down the road of such disturbing business ideas
<DocScrutinizer05> for sure not
<DocScrutinizer05> it took me like 20 years to reach that point where I'm now, and I'm afraid it will take me at least 10 years to get out of this pit again
<DocScrutinizer05> if I had focused on automotive instead mobile communications a 20 years ago, I'd develop autonomously driving card today and probably be a much happier person
<DocScrutinizer05> cars*
<DocScrutinizer05> saying this since actually 20 years ago all my professional involvements were with automotive, and telecommunications was at best my humble contribution to twinklephone SIP VoIP
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<DocScrutinizer05> then a 10 years and some ago, Openmoko lured me in
<norly> thanks for the work you are doing
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<DocScrutinizer05> I don't think it's useful for anybody or anything meanwhile
<DocScrutinizer05> nevertheless thank you for the thanks
<norly> i think that *someone* needs to take the step
<DocScrutinizer05> maybe I could contribute useful to fixing i.MX8M power consumption issues. That's at least one topic where I seem to have knowledge that might help improve things and result into sth useful
<DocScrutinizer05> thanks to my very early focus on event driven architecture, combined with always doing hw system development
<DocScrutinizer05> or I go for doing farmer
<norly> since (as you said yourself) the market is small, i think it makes sense to consider joining forces with the purism project
<norly> in some way, it sounds a lot like STEP2, doesn't it?
<norly> and maybe that project can then feed back into Neo900
<norly> after all, it still doesn't provide a phone with hackerbus and hardware keyboard
<norly> both phones have their use cases
<Joerg-Neo900> >>joining forces with the purism project<< been tried several times, and meanwhile not on my list of things I want to do anymore
<norly> oh no, i'm sad to hear it didn't work :(
<Joerg-Neo900> their CTO(?) Bob Ham never had a particularly friendly attitude towards Openmoko, Nikolaus / GolDeliCo, and me
<norly> how about the pyra? is there still an exchange of knowledge with that project?
<Joerg-Neo900> let alone Purism now performingf massively sub-par on exactly the topics he used to bash us
<Joerg-Neo900> all knowledge with Pyra been exachanged already, and I think not much new knowledge came up regarding PYra
<Joerg-Neo900> it's a pity they also don't ship yet
<Joerg-Neo900> and I'm tired to follow that thread of reality on a daily basis
<norly> yeah, all these projects drag on
<norly> at least pyra seems to near completion. it'll be done real soon (TM), in 2 months (TM)
<norly> so it's not impossible
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<paul_boddie> Especially since it was already said, thanks from me for your efforts, Joerg!
<norly> yes, really
<norly> what's the status on neo900 anyway? it's been near completion years ago it seemed
<paul_boddie> The work done on Neo900 is considerable, and if only I could think of a way of moving it forward.
<norly> yeah, that would be amazing
<paul_boddie> norly: I think the problem was mainly getting a layout done.
<paul_boddie> And I share Joerg's views on the modern world, smartphones and surveillance gadgets.
<paul_boddie> That people are now happy to plant gadgets with microphones and cameras in their houses and think that such things are only enabled if they say "OK Google" or whatever.
<Joerg-Neo900> we have an insurmountable deadlock, comnsisting of lack of layoutr to show off a working prototype, lack of preorders due to missng prototype to show off, and impossible sourcing of "mech parts" like display, sliders. etc, even if we could suddenly generate a 400 more preorders. So the project is in a massive zombie state with very little hope to get revived without massive changes in design and concept
<paul_boddie> It's difficult to take a different path when everyone else is happy to take surveillance money.
<Joerg-Neo900> yes
<paul_boddie> I did wonder whether a different "core" board would be a starting point. Things change and even Nikolaus realised this after doing his Cortex 8 board and seeing that the PocketBeagle was practically the same.
<Joerg-Neo900> there were two opportunities to carry on with STEP2 with partners, at beginning of last year. Both evaporated into nonsensical requirements either regarding HR or limit of available funds. Since then I think there's a better futer elsewhere for me
<Joerg-Neo900> future*
<paul_boddie> I guess the problem with Neo900 is the physical constraints, so it's not like the ZeroPhone where things just get stacked up and the casework is done at the end.
<paul_boddie> Not that I should really say anything about that without looking more closely at it.
<paul_boddie> Anyway, I'll look through the Neo900 documents again soon. I made sure to download many of them the other day.
<Joerg-Neo900> paul_boddie: yes, that's part of the problem, the case
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<Joerg-Neo900> but in the end the *only* problem is funding
<paul_boddie> In principle, reusing the N900 case is a good move given how expensive casework is to get made.
<paul_boddie> My perception is that there's some demand for a genuinely open phone, but people get easily distracted and buy the latest shiny Samsung instead.
<Joerg-Neo900> fund was "give us the better fraction of a million and we're talking". Now that evolved into "give us a low 1 digit number of millions and we can accomplish something for sure"
<paul_boddie> Then there's a demand for a secure phone, but this attracts all sorts of Jason Bourne imitators and people who don't care about the openness.
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<Joerg-Neo900> paul_boddie: excellent analysis
<Joerg-Neo900> andd to the "secure" domain those like purism who think security is a hardware switch
<paul_boddie> So the two groups don't really overlap. Or at least the pretend Jason Bourne group doesn't really understand the issues.
<Joerg-Neo900> add to*
<paul_boddie> The real Jason Bourne group have access to all sorts of top secret stuff, I would think. ;-)
<Joerg-Neo900> there's the professional security domain where devices cost a 2l or 4k or more. Those DO understand security... sometimes
<Joerg-Neo900> think blackphone etc
<bencoh> please tell me you don't really think the blackphone is a seriously "secured" phone
<bencoh> I know you know better :)
<Joerg-Neo900> no, definitely not
<bencoh> pfew :)
<Joerg-Neo900> they aimed at that, and failed miserably despite being highly professional
<bencoh> huhu
<Joerg-Neo900> because they came with a software-only perspective and had no clue about hw
<paul_boddie> There was an amusing anecdote about hardware testing on Bunnie's blog involving a power switch which didn't work in the final product.
<paul_boddie> URL (animated images, CPU intensive): https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=5450
<paul_boddie> Anyway, I need to go. Keep up the good work, Joerg and company!
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<xmn> It suck when your ahead of the trends, but then it passes you by when you can get past road blocks. Now it's trendy to say your security focus. It's also unfortunate if purism didn't see any value in working together. Would be a great question to ask the ceo on one of these podcast he seem to be on a lot these days.
<Joerg-Neo900> HAHA yeah >>Thus, in order for the factory to meet the product designer’s expectation of low labor cost with simultaneously high quality, it’s up to the product designer to come up with an automated, fool-proof test jig.<< Seen that, so true. Worthwhile read, many thanks to paul_boddie for that link