<Xcalibor>
i'm following the tutorial available at merjis.com/richj/computers/ocaml
<systems>
:)
<systems>
is it good
<Xcalibor>
but apparently my ocaml doesn't support Gtk so I cannot check out these gtk+ examples...
<Xcalibor>
nod, i enjoyed the chapter about the GC a great deal
<systems>
screw gtk
<systems>
ocaml needs a good book a 2000 pages book
<Xcalibor>
are there any other windowing toolkit available for Ocaml?
<systems>
with interesting examples
<systems>
i think tk
<Xcalibor>
yup, i'd certainly buy it
<Xcalibor>
Tk? ah, that would be nice...
<Smerdyakov>
I think it would be a sign of a poorly designed language/tool set if a 2000 page book were helpful.
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: please elaborate
themus_ has quit ["Client Exiting"]
<Smerdyakov>
Don't you think it's scary if you need to read 2000 pages to know how to write OCaml code well?
<systems>
well, ocaml is more like 4 languages in 1
<Smerdyakov>
systems, no.
<systems>
ocaml prooves that you dont need purity in a lang to implement many features descently
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: ok, but a 2000 pages book can explain the language and go deep into all the libraries/modules and put lots of good examples and even go into the implementation(s) and hot to make extensions, etc...
<Xcalibor>
there's much more into a language than the syntax itself nowadays
<Smerdyakov>
I don't agree that a single book would be a helpful place to have all of that informaion.
<Xcalibor>
besides, ANSI C++ standard description if much bigger than 2,000 pages (includes the C90 one)... Common Lisp standard is also 2,000+ pages
<Zadeh>
It's over 700 pages
<Xcalibor>
which one?
<systems>
whats over 700 pages
<Zadeh>
ISO C++98
<Xcalibor>
(also depends on paper size)
<Xcalibor>
not mine
<Xcalibor>
have you taken into account C95? and the 2001 addendum?
<Zadeh>
776 pages
<Zadeh>
There is no C98
<Zadeh>
er
<Zadeh>
95
<Xcalibor>
there's C89 + Corrigendum 1 (199x) + Corrigendum 2 (1995) which is the one most supported nowadays
<Zadeh>
Yeah
<Xcalibor>
ie, C95 for shorter... or C89+errata if you wish...
<Zadeh>
But the whole C spec is only a few hundred pages
<Zadeh>
And ISOC++98 doesn't reference all of it
<Xcalibor>
ISO C++ 98 has not ISO C99, for obvious reasons, but C++0x will probably support all of ISO C again
<Zadeh>
No
<Xcalibor>
Zadeh: it actually #include's it
<Zadeh>
C99 introduced deliberate incompatibilities which cannot be incorporated into a new C++
<Zadeh>
Xcalibor: nuh-uh
<Xcalibor>
According Herb Sutter they are going to be worked out for the next C++0x
<Xcalibor>
I'm subscribed to his yahoogroup and he sometimes writes Committee briefings
<Zadeh>
I think you've misinterpreted him then
<Xcalibor>
it's possible, but I am not sure...
<Xcalibor>
and surely C++0x and C0x will be compatible again (the complex type is weirdo and the resizable arrays aren't __that__ useful...)
<Zadeh>
would be nice
<Xcalibor>
while most additions to the standard library (strncpy etc) are already added into C++98
<systems>
xavier leroy should write a book
<Xcalibor>
Zadeh: Mr Sutter commets this in one of his columns, that the committees are working to get both communities together again
<systems>
i just think , he didnt cause he doesnt expect much sales
<Xcalibor>
xavier who?
<Xcalibor>
is that the guy who started the Caml?
<systems>
and the guy who is keepin it alive
<Xcalibor>
or one of them, at INRIA?
<systems>
xavier to ocaml is linus to linux
<Smerdyakov>
I'm curious as to what the backgrounds are of you fellows who think having a 2000-page book about a language is a good thing.
<Zadeh>
Xcalibor: yeah I know
<Xcalibor>
aha... still learning Ocaml's history...
<Smerdyakov>
What experience do you have writing software with functional languages?
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: it allows you to go on a two week vacation with a notbook without an Internet connection... pretty nice, as GPRS is waaaaay too expensive
<Zadeh>
I sure wouldn't be reading a formal definition of a language to learn it
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: I wrote a genetics simple program in Lisp some years ago
<Zadeh>
If the book covering it was thousands of pages long I'd suspect there'd be a problem
<Xcalibor>
and also write small scheme things for this or that
<Xcalibor>
and use lots of functional techniques programming perl for a living
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, what functional techniques do you use with Perl?
<Xcalibor>
well, besides using perl's functional capabilities, which aren't that bad, I use and abuse the CPAN Language::Functional module, which has a lot of Haskell functions ported to work with perl array references working as lists
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<Smerdyakov>
OK. The essence of functional programming is simplicity. I can't help but feeling that you haven't really grasped that if you lust after 2000 page books on OCaml.
<Xcalibor>
also, it isn't hard to make side-effect free programs in perl, as functions are 1st-class citizens... I'm not MJ Dominus, but I'm into his preview mailing list for his functional programming in perl book :-)
<Xcalibor>
well... let's say some 60-100 pages to explain how to think in Ocaml
<Smerdyakov>
That's a far cry from 2000!
<Zadeh>
are there any ocaml books that big?
<Xcalibor>
another 100 or so to explain the syntax well: alll of the syntax, including complex types, etc
<Xcalibor>
classes, polymorphism, etc
<Smerdyakov>
I think the manual handles that quite nicely already.
<systems>
plus you took 2000 pages too literaly
<systems>
big books are in the 1000 range
<Xcalibor>
then explain all the modules, with examples of code in each function and method and functor available: lets say about half a page for each method... that's about, mm... 400 pages, wouldn't you agree?
<systems>
i suggested 2000 to mean a very big book
<Xcalibor>
then explain the whole Ocaml way of making programs
<Xcalibor>
how to use the interpreter (beyond the man page, I mean), the compiler, all the compiler options, the debugger (is there one, right?) the profiler (i hope there's one) and the how to write C extensions
<Xcalibor>
that would be, at least another 100-200 pages
<Xcalibor>
we are around 800 pages
<Xcalibor>
more, probably
<Xcalibor>
as systems say, a big brick
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, I think if you need examples for every module member, then you need to learn OCaml more before trying to use the standard library.
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, most module members should be usable with no documentation: their names and types should give everything way in 95% of cases.
<systems>
dyakov smart examples and whys and why nots are nice
<Smerdyakov>
systems, prove it.
<systems>
i need it
<systems>
prove what
<Smerdyakov>
Then maybe you also need to learn OCaml better.
<systems>
what are you sayin
<Xcalibor>
then extensive examples: how to write a web server in Ocaml., how to use mod_caml under Apache, how to open a Socket, how to make a window with menues, and all that: how to write an editor in Ocaml (there's one, but I have never managed to compile it), etc...
<systems>
sure i do
<systems>
thats why i say ocaml needs a book
<whee>
I find descriptive types work just as well as an example
<Smerdyakov>
Prove that "smart examples and whys and why nots" are the best way to learn these things..
<teratorn>
systems: it has a book
<whee>
usually you can combine the function names with the types and figure out exactly what you need to do
<teratorn>
it's pretty good
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: well, I am a newbie, I know what I need... when I am a more advanced user I will need less help, but right now I need all the help I can get
<systems>
and old outdated book
<teratorn>
no.
<Smerdyakov>
systems, no, what you need to do is learn OCaml in general, and then you will find it easy to figure out how to use any library.
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, I claim that you hurt yourself by reading examples instead of learning general principles.
<teratorn>
systems: o'reilly has a an ocaml book, originally written in french, but the english translation is very good as well.
<Xcalibor>
how do I write a module? well, here yo uare, 3 or 4 modules as an example, both using functors and by macho-handwriting, etc... how do I overcome the GC if I need it (real time development) is it possible? etc etc etc
<systems>
for ocaml 2. something
<teratorn>
systems: you don't know wtf you're talking about.
<teratorn>
so stop.
<bk_>
i want the o'reilly book on paper
<systems>
i read 6 chapters from that book
<bk_>
in english
<teratorn>
obviously not.
<Zadeh>
systems: have you looked at the tutorial someone mentioned earlier on merjis.com?
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: i do not read examples, but you cannot expect every new Ocaml programmer to be a CS major
<systems>
i plan to zadeh :)
<Xcalibor>
bk_: in Amazon I can only find the french version... it's weird
<systems>
teratron you check the book and ... heh
<Zadeh>
systems: well thats a good one imo
<teratorn>
systems: why don't you start with what's wrong with the existing book...
<bk_>
i know, but i don't speak french very well
<systems>
for example something that pissed me off
<Xcalibor>
bk_: neither do i... maybe amazon.co.uk has one in english?
<teratorn>
i printed the pdf, no big deal.
<bk_>
nope, its not out on paper in english
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, no, but I can expect them not to be lazy.
<teratorn>
i put it in a nice little 3 ring binder, very nice.
<Xcalibor>
bk_: ah, only on a CD by OReilly? mmm...
<systems>
many examples are not elaborated upon
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: hehehe... anyway, such a book is good for an offline reference, maybe not 2000 pages, and maybe not even the way I explained, but a good offline book in Ocaml can easily get over the 600 pages
<teratorn>
systems: like what?
<systems>
teratron, read the first few pages you will see it was writen for ocaml 2.xx
<teratorn>
systems: tell me soemthing specific, or shut the fuck up.
<systems>
dont tell me to shut the fuck up
<teratorn>
you're maning me mad
<teratorn>
*making
<systems>
you dont have to participate in this room
<systems>
go away
<Xcalibor>
well, question: can I create anonymous functions in Ocaml like I can in Caml Light, using function?
<teratorn>
systems: don't spout nonsense
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, of course
<Xcalibor>
and they work the same way?
<Smerdyakov>
Yeeees
<teratorn>
all i want is for you do tell me something that bad about the book
<Smerdyakov>
Read a tutorial already :\
<systems>
the quicksort example, read the code and read the explantion
<teratorn>
"the examples" is not specific
<teratorn>
systems: what's wrong with it.
<systems>
for one, the explanation have a typo
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: i'm reading several, but they don't speak of anonymous functions, at least not yet
<teratorn>
systems: hahahahaha
<teratorn>
hahahah
<teratorn>
ha
<teratorn>
one typo. ok. you win.
<bk_>
teratorn, the ocaml book is about ocaml but not exactly a good tutorial on functional programming - imho at least
<systems>
for two, it doesnt fusckin explain, why the quicksort works
<teratorn>
bk_: that's certainly true.
<systems>
i dont like you
<bk_>
that's why i'm reading a different book now to understand the principles
<teratorn>
you are not a likable person because you do not listen and you do nor argue with reason.
<teratorn>
s/nor/not
<teratorn>
you're the same way in #python
<Xcalibor>
ok... Smerdyakov can I ask you some help for a nagging problem? I have partial solutions and systems told me it could be done using an OO approach, but I don't see it straight... it's an interesting problem posted in a Paul Graham's page in his website
<systems>
yes Xcalibor
<teratorn>
i would be happy to acknolage faults in the book if you only would point out something specific and substantial.
<systems>
i remembered how
<Zadeh>
teratorn: are you the author?
<Xcalibor>
systems: really? please, explain
<teratorn>
Zadeh: i've got nothing to do with it..
<systems>
it as i say very basic OO
<teratorn>
Zadeh: I just don't like senseless whining...
<Xcalibor>
better, easier to understand :-)
<systems>
simply define 2 class, one for floats another for int
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, what's the problem?
<systems>
both will have the same method add
<systems>
so wull be able to send the same method to two objects one that add to a float member
<systems>
another that add to an integer memmber
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: you gotta make a function that takes a number an returns another function that takes another number and return an accumulated sum of them
<Xcalibor>
systems: okay, so far so good, go on
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, this was posed as a "challenge" on a web site..?
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: an scheme example: (define (foo n) (lambda (m) (set! n (+ n m) n)))
<systems>
you can add the same method call in any routine, it will work on any class with that method
<systems>
it's OO style to do polymorphism
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, ah, I see.
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: more or less... Paul Graham says he thinks a solution in Caml or ocaml is not possible because the lack of polymorphism, but Ocaml is polymorphic, so i wanted to email him an example
<Xcalibor>
let me get the URI for you
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, if the issue is with dealing with "different types of numbers," then it's a silly one.
<Xcalibor>
but it's not easy in many languages, which was the point of the original article which gace birth to that discussion page... I emailed the author examples for languages aleph, water and some other, but Ocaml and Tcl are resisting me, for different reasons
<Xcalibor>
you can read it all in that page... i just wanted to give Ocaml it's right honorable place in the page :-)
<Zadeh>
hehe
<Xcalibor>
systems: the problem is still to discriminate which class is called accordig to which argument is passed, as you cannot add an integer to a float without some explicit type conversions
<Smerdyakov>
The "problem" is ill-defined.
<Smerdyakov>
It lacks a definition of "number" and a definition of "increment."
<Xcalibor>
follow the link about submissions, it's all explained there
<Xcalibor>
i have seen the solution in Mozart, and I think something n that line should be easy to write in Ocaml, but I haven't yet tried...
<Smerdyakov>
I think this problem is purposely designed to be of interest to dynamically typed language users and does not demonstrate any fundamental capability of a language.
<Smerdyakov>
It's not clear why it's not OK to always use floats with this function, if floats are large enough to include all integer values with no loss of precision.
<Xcalibor>
the original article was about languages written for smart people vs. language written for the average-joe programmer... (basically lisp vs java, but easily generalizable)
<Smerdyakov>
How recently was this particular accgensub challenge posted?
* Zadeh
thought that article sucked and it's very title suggests elitism
<Xcalibor>
the page was simply born cause people started to send him examples of that written in their favourite language... it's for fun, but I think it can be good for learning Ocaml...
<Xcalibor>
it's not a challenge, actually... it's be on the net for months
<Smerdyakov>
Formulate the problem in terms that make sense for OCaml and then you can set about solving it.
<systems>
paul graham writings could be fun entertaining
<Smerdyakov>
It's a nonsensical problem from an OCaml perspective at the moment.
<Xcalibor>
Zadeh: the article is interesting... and yes, there's a bit of elitism in it, as saying my language is better than you is snobbish and snobbism is always elitist... still it has some good point to think about
<Zadeh>
he's oozing so much lisp elitism it's hard to miss
<systems>
but not hardly ever technically correct
<systems>
he made lots of money from buyin one software project he made
<systems>
so he tought, that he must be a genius
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: okay, what about this: write a function that takes either an int or a float and returns a function that takes either an int or a float, independently from the type passed to its creator, that returns the sum of its argument and the argument to the parent function, and stores and update this sum as internal state
<systems>
i'd take xavier word over his any day
<Xcalibor>
systems: On Lisp is a very interesting book whatsoever
<systems>
and xavier didnt make the millions
<systems>
xcalibor actually after readin some of this article , i'd have to take that with the grain of salt
<systems>
s/this/his
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, what does this new function return? An int or a float?
<systems>
his opinion about OOP is at the least uneducated
<Xcalibor>
bah, forget the article.. it was written years ago, probably as a hothead reply to the huge Java hype
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: int if possible, float otherwise
<Xcalibor>
if possiblew means if nothing is lost in the (possible) conversion down to an int
<Xcalibor>
liske from 5.0 to 5
<Xcalibor>
like int_of_float 5.0 would do... but 5.01 should be a float return, of course
<Xcalibor>
is there an Ocaml equivalent to the Oz IsInt?
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<Xcalibor>
ie. can I do runtime type inspection? match n with doesn't seem to work, I always get sybtax error :-/
<Xcalibor>
like this time, i meant syntax, of course
<systems>
there was a project to make that possible i guess it was called g'caml or something
<systems>
g i guess for generic
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<Xcalibor>
that would be nice... cause using 'a doesn't seem to work on this, as when I pass a parameter, the whole function goes to the parameter's type :-/
<Xcalibor>
(otherwise, as it should be)
* Zadeh
would like to see better error msgs
* Xcalibor
would like a complete number tower like Scheme's and polymorphic expressions on them so (+) works bor all of them...
* Xcalibor
is using a new keyboard, and sometimes puts some typos, sorry
<Zadeh>
np
<Smerdyakov>
This bizarre stuff about "generic numbers" is not very useful in my eyes.
<Smerdyakov>
It's all really just a complex number type that may be stored in an optimized way for certain cases.
<Smerdyakov>
And it's easy enough to create an abstract complex type that may use optimized representations in ML.
<Xcalibor>
well... the thing is, arithmetic is so well know by now, that getting stuck to integers or IEEE floats due to CPU design limitations is really annoying
<Xcalibor>
for example, there's a (**) for floats in Ocaml, but not for ints
<Smerdyakov>
So write a complex number library like I just said..
<Xcalibor>
I have to create one using Big_int... it was easy and fun, but imho it should be into the language already... unlimited precision integers... they are needed for lots of crypto stuff, for example
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: it's easy, that's why it should be already written and into the language... if not into the core, yes into the standard library
<Xcalibor>
using Bit_int makes for a lot more verbose code... integers should be always unlimited precision
<Xcalibor>
specially in high level languages
<Xcalibor>
let foo n = function n -> function m -> ( m = n + m ) ;;
<Smerdyakov>
I don't think so. The increased efficiency is good to have if your applications works within the size boundaries.
<Xcalibor>
let foo2 n = function n -> function m -> ( m = n +. m ) ;;
<Xcalibor>
now lets integrate foo and foo2 into one single function... how?
<Zadeh>
if their use can be statically determined to only require much less you should go for it
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, describing an exact scenario like that is not helpful. You need to justify why you want to do that. Of course, type classes in Haskell provide one answer.
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: maybe... i just don't know... someone working in crypto or in simulations or in imaging can differ (after all, treating a high definition pic of 6000x6000 pixels almost gets you off the int boundary...)
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: so someone told me, but I wasn't able to grog what type classes exactly were (they were defined as a kid of mix of generic functions and java interfaces)
<Xcalibor>
for example: medical engineering, to preocess a radiography, or a tomography, you can easily go well beyond the int, even for big, 64bits processors... they are huge in terms of information, and you gotta do it fast
<Smerdyakov>
Type classes are a lot of infrastructure to resolve function and operator overloading in a user-specified way.
<Smerdyakov>
They don't add anything fundamental to the language: you could always type a little bit more and get the same effect.
<Xcalibor>
ah... mmm...
<Xcalibor>
ok, getting back to the accumulator problem, let's say I define a type number: type number = Int of int | Float of float
<Xcalibor>
function add x y for number type needs all the explicit additions: is this due to the fact that a + b is actually ((+) a b)?
<Xcalibor>
i mean, if f is float and i an int, i have to define both f + i and i + f (with appropriate type coertions, that is)... is that because the + in there is actually a call to (+) a or (+.)
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, it's because each operator has exactly one set of operand types. It's nonsensical to use it with any other types.
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, so it's not "actually (+) or (+.)". It's nothing at all because it's ill-typed.
<Xcalibor>
bk_: ah, nice, thanks :-) however, is it always necessary to pass the numbers with the constructors in front? (is that to make them both ot type number?)
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: mmm... okay, i see the point
<bk_>
i don't know enough of ocaml yet to be able to give you a precise answer on that
<Smerdyakov>
Is there a type "number" in OCaml?
<Smerdyakov>
I'll be very surprised if there is!
<bk_>
no there's not
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: in that PDF there is :-)
<bk_>
nope, he typed it
<Xcalibor>
as an example of Variant type
<Xcalibor>
(better than mine, actually)
<bk_>
yes, coz he added the | Error
<Xcalibor>
yup
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<Xcalibor>
systems solved the accumulator problem using (a similar to) this class number, but we had to explicitly call foo with Float or Int...
<Xcalibor>
he and I were working on it for a while the other day...
<bk_>
i know, i've followed your conversation on that
<Xcalibor>
ah, cool
<Xcalibor>
so you knwo what the problem is, then
<bk_>
yes
<Xcalibor>
any ideas?
<bk_>
heh not really
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: have you been onto Ocaml or FP for a long time?
<Xcalibor>
bk_: it's okay, me neither :)
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, about 2 years
<Xcalibor>
d you have the web page ahndy? about the other languages solutions?
<Smerdyakov>
The one you gave me a URL to?
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: whoa... are you in a university or something like that? or in industrial development?
<Smerdyakov>
I am a university student.
<Xcalibor>
i have seen the solution made in python... could something like that be done in Ocaml, or the type thing gets into the middle again?
<Smerdyakov>
It's not that "the type thing gets in the way."
<Smerdyakov>
It's that the problem is fundamentally UNDERDEFINED for OCaml.
<Smerdyakov>
It's MEANINGLESS.
<Smerdyakov>
The problem statement would need to include an OCaml type for the requested function as a starting point.
<bk_>
i don
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: that's nice, i didn't studied CS or any other programming career, i'm a physics bsc(hons) but gotta program for a living... that's why my fp background is not vewry good...
<bk_>
oops i don't see what's wrong w/ typing at this point
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: mmm... okay, i see your point (but it still itches :-)
* Xcalibor
would like to have more time to study FP really seriously...
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, I had learned most all of my programming skills on my own before starting university, so don't expect me to be sympathetic :P
* Zadeh
too
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: oh, me too, worry not... but students have so oh much free time!
<Xcalibor>
i can still remember when i was one (being 30 yo only)
<Xcalibor>
sigh, the good old days...
* Xcalibor
apologizes.. it's late in here (5:35am) and nostalgy's too strong :-P
<Zadeh>
you were only 30 when you were a student?
<Xcalibor>
i am 30 now :-P
<Zadeh>
ah
<Xcalibor>
i stopped being at student at 25, when i dropped my phd thesis down the trashcan and started working as a programmer
<Zadeh>
why'd ya do that?
<Xcalibor>
physics wouldn't feed me
<Xcalibor>
investigation money is scarce in spain and all universities are already full with for-life lecturers and readers and professors and all that... i couldn't wait until several of them died
<Zadeh>
damn
<Xcalibor>
plus my parents were also paying my two sisters studies, too expensive
<Xcalibor>
yes, we all said that :)
<Zadeh>
change to something engineeringish and move to the u.s. then
<Xcalibor>
half my fellow students are working in IT related jobs far from home... those that specialized in electronics got it easier, somehow...
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, hold on... what does what your parents are paying have to do with it? You mean there was no money even to support you as a PhD student?
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, (money from your university, government, etc.)
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: exactly
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: from 150 students in my promotion, only 20 or so got a studentship
<Xcalibor>
i wasn't one of those
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, well. I guess you should have worked harder to impress people in high places. ;)
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, it sounds like you went to a not-very-prestigious place if you couldn't even work as a teaching assistant to get by!
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: problem is the way studentships are awarded: by your average marks
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: it was prestigious enough, problem is that there's no money to pay even the assistant teachers
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, OK. I don't think prestigious universities in the USA have that problem, generally. *shrug*
<Smerdyakov>
(These places wouldn't be prestigious if all their students had to drop out from lack of money!)
<Zadeh>
I know a guy here from Argentina who told me a similar story.
<Smerdyakov>
Well, I guess not all countries and universities are the same! Go figure!
<Xcalibor>
averages range from 1 to 4, i got a 2,4 or 2.5 (a good one for physics)... problem is people in psycology, phylosophy etc start getting good averages at 3.7, and so most studentships go to those people (there aretttttn' enough jobs for lawyers historians and all the humanities, so they staty at the university and do phd's and so they get most of the studentships)
<Zadeh>
eh, duh
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, which country is this?
<Xcalibor>
also, there's a way to give money for laboratories... Periodism was considered to be a more experimental career than Physics, and they got more money
<Xcalibor>
Spain
<Xcalibor>
that means we had just two lasers for our advanced optics laboratories (which were great fun, but we were a bit crowded there, as we were about 40 in the class, so some 20 per laser :-/
<Smerdyakov>
Well, I am just beginning as a PhD student, and I don't expect any problems like that.
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: i hope not, pal
<Xcalibor>
where are you studying?
<Smerdyakov>
I'm in computer science at UC Berkeley.
<Xcalibor>
ah, good ol berkeley
<Smerdyakov>
I have a guarantee of funding for 3 years.
<Xcalibor>
universities are verydifferent in the US than in Spain
<Smerdyakov>
What differences are you thinking of?
<Xcalibor>
a friend of mine was also granted a studentship (a very good one) for 3 years... but he couldn't finish his PhD in time because it involved pretty complex calculations and there wasn't money to buy the right math libraries so he spent a lot of time writing one, and giving the classes hiw thesis director didn't feel like giving himself
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, this was at Berkeley?
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: most universities in spain are public ones, only get money from the state and from students' fees
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: no, no, this was at Santiago de Compostela, in Spain
<Smerdyakov>
Well, Berkeley is a public university.
<Xcalibor>
actually my friend was at Berkely for 3 months
<Smerdyakov>
But there are private donors involved as well.
<Xcalibor>
well, US is much richer than Spain
<Xcalibor>
not in our universities
<Smerdyakov>
I imagine that if you are in the top 100 best newstudents in your field you can get full funding somewhere in Spain, though.
<Xcalibor>
we have some private income, from university contracts with the esa or some other telecom or bioengineering bussinesses, but it mostly goes to the ones involved, so it's not spread accross the whole university... there are some very rich groups, the rest are pretty poor
<Smerdyakov>
Well, there are rich and poor groups in USA universities, too.
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: mmm... the top 100 in the whole country, you mean?
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, yes.
* Xcalibor
was in a very poor one
<Smerdyakov>
CS is rich overall, but it has poor sections.
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: yes, the top 100 can stay, i guess
<Smerdyakov>
I think I was judged to be in the top 100 this year, so things have worked out well for me. ;)
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: anyway, a colorful example: there was this guy, in physics, he was a 4: that means top grades in all subjects throughout the 5 years or bsc
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: that's really great, and we will use that in here, fear not ;-)
<Xcalibor>
he was THE student in physwics, only 4 in 10 years...
<Xcalibor>
well, there wasn't money to offer him even an assistant teacher in any department: he finished working in a maths department at another university
<Xcalibor>
that's a loss
<Xcalibor>
that's being poor in investigation
* Zadeh
starts feeling like a slacker for all the money he gets
<Xcalibor>
that's why spain is slowly becoming in the beach of europe, but only a big beach, without any real R&D... ./
<Smerdyakov>
What do you mean by "being poor in investigation"?
<Smerdyakov>
Zadeh, gets from whom?
<Zadeh>
fin. aid and scholarships
<Xcalibor>
my ttftriend dropped his phd 4 months before defending his doctoral thesis, i was faster and only stood 1.5 years...
<Smerdyakov>
Zadeh, I had a 1/2 tuition undergrad scholarship and a form of financial aid called "parents" for the rest. My dad makes too much money to get anything more. :\
<Xcalibor>
we don't invest money in R&D in the universitites or investigation entities... our research investment is around the 0.5% total yearly budget
<Xcalibor>
average in other european countries is around 3.5%
<Xcalibor>
2.5%, sorry
<Zadeh>
Smerdyakov: I blew a full ride scholarship heh
<Zadeh>
Xcalibor: sad
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: and where are you from? your nick sounds slavic...
<Smerdyakov>
I also "gave up" $12.5k in scholarship by graduating a year early, but also saved that much. :)
<Xcalibor>
Zadeh: yup, very sad...
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, I'm from the USA. The nick is from a Dostoyevsky novel.
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: nice... i used raskolnikov for a while, but it was in the times of ircii and no scripts, so it was too long :-P
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, is C&P the only book of his you read?
<Xcalibor>
we have 5 years bsc + 1 year for the hons. plus 3-5 years phd... it's a long time, lots of money if you study away from home...
<Xcalibor>
tried another one, what's the title...?
<Smerdyakov>
I did undergrad in 3 years, and now hopefully 3-4 years for PhD.
<Xcalibor>
war and peace is from him?
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, noooo! That's Tolstoy!
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, (but I am reading that book now! :D)
<Xcalibor>
my sister is doing medicine: it's 6 years to be md, plus 1 exam and 3 years internship + 2 more or specialty :-/
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, Dostoyevsky is The Brothers Karamazov, The Idiot, Demons/The Possessed, The Adolescent/A Raw Youth, The Gambler, The House of the Dead, etc.
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: ah, okay... i cannot remember now, i was much younger then
* Zadeh
really liked physics, but hated the labs, and has postponed the 2nd course he has to take
<Xcalibor>
my parents got a collection of XIX writer, some 20 very thick books with 2-4 novels per book, hard to read... managed a couple by mark twain and not even finished c&p...
* Xcalibor
otoh loved physics :) even got a studentship to study 1 year abroad. i went to Sheffield University, in UK, it was a great year...
<Zadeh>
wtg
* Smerdyakov
laments capitalism.
<Xcalibor>
very differnet, as they make their bsc in 3 years, lots of labs, we are mostly theoretical... it was fun to study the hydrogen atom for the nth time :-)
* Zadeh
has only run into 1 person so far who has recognized the significance of his nick.
<Xcalibor>
Zadeh: that's because yo uare too obscure ;-)
<Xcalibor>
mine is easy to catch :-P
<Zadeh>
hehe
<Xcalibor>
i ran as aanimad for a long time...
<Xcalibor>
that was harder to catch for most people :)
* Xcalibor
aanimad means 'the wind is blowing wildly' in anishiinabe, which is the language spoken by native american such as the cherokee
<Xcalibor>
which actually don't call themselves cherokee, btw
* Zadeh
is, coincidentally enough, part 'cherokee'
<Zadeh>
but I didn't know what that meant.
<Smerdyakov>
Zadeh, well, a famous CS professor here has your nick as his last name.
<Zadeh>
Smerdyakov: I know
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: really? cool
<Xcalibor>
:-)
<Xcalibor>
there really are synchronicity in the world, Jung was right :-)
<Zadeh>
Smerdyakov: you bastard
<Xcalibor>
???
<Zadeh>
Smerdy gets to go to school with the guy I'm named after. ;)
<Xcalibor>
LOL
<Xcalibor>
Zadeh: where are you studying, then?
<Zadeh>
Washington State
<Xcalibor>
okay, now there's more people that know the origin of your nick, that's good
<Zadeh>
hehe
<Xcalibor>
ah, whashington... an old friend of mine works in that famous university in DC... how was it called?
<Xcalibor>
mmm...
<Xcalibor>
Georgetown
<Xcalibor>
is it anywhere near?
<Zadeh>
No, D.C. is on the east coast
<Zadeh>
WA State is on the west coast
<Xcalibor>
or is your washington the seattle one?
<Zadeh>
yeah
<Xcalibor>
aha... well, spanish geography is confusing enough... :)
<Zadeh>
I get that a lot
polin8 has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
<Zadeh>
It's made more confusing by the fact that some people refer to Washington D.C. generically as just "Washington."
<Xcalibor>
so you are in the home of war games... :-)
<Zadeh>
war games?
<Xcalibor>
where Professor Falken lived... cool movie that one :-)
<Xcalibor>
well, I am not sure about the title, cause movies in spain are dubbed and they always change the titles...
<Zadeh>
That movie looks to be out when I was barely conscious ;)
<Xcalibor>
but you surely know it (you cannot be that young) a boy connects to the army computers and starts a nuclear total war simulation game that the computer thinks is real
<Xcalibor>
yeah, more or less :)
<Xcalibor>
the modem the boy uses was one of those you had to plug the telephone auriculr in position after you got the chirps and noises from the line :)
<Xcalibor>
if you haven't seen it, you should, it's a good laugh and the movie has a couple of good messages
<Zadeh>
ah I've heard of this one but never seen it
<Xcalibor>
give it a weekend try, it's a good movie
* Zadeh
adds it to his practically-infinite list of mental notes
<Xcalibor>
:-)
* Smerdyakov
has started a finite list of books he wants to read.
<Xcalibor>
unless you got a lazy todo dispenser (lazy in the haskell sense) you have a trouble, as humans can only deal with 3-7 things in short-term memory
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: finite but possibly huge, right :)
<Zadeh>
typically
<Xcalibor>
Zadeh: here goes a bit of anishiinabe for you: O'siyo (I bid you good welcome)
<Xcalibor>
so you can explore your genetical roots :)
<Smerdyakov>
Maybe the word triggers racial memories and send him on an astral dreamquest!
<Zadeh>
great, .. so how'd you find yourself being into that language?
<Xcalibor>
the cherokee call themselves (and other people in their cultural group) the Tsalagi
<Xcalibor>
well... i've always loved languages
<Xcalibor>
and when I was at Sheffield I managed to meet a yankee who had some native roots, and he got me hooked to their wonderfully complex languages :-)
<Xcalibor>
unfortunately resourcesw were scarce to leard from distance (most courses were taught in local universities around the states where relatively big groups of natives still survive and remember their languages)
<Zadeh>
I have a shirt that says, in Cherokee, "I don't know, it's in Cherokee" (literally).
<Xcalibor>
and i kind of had to leave the subject for later on... last year I started studying irish gaelic (another one in my early todo list) native america languages still are in my list, so one of these days... :-)
<Xcalibor>
Zadeh: really? cool :-)
<Zadeh>
hehe yeah, only $10 if you want to order one ;)
<Xcalibor>
bet it's just a couple of long words
<Xcalibor>
h&p is higher that he t-shirt price :-/
<Zadeh>
h&p?
<Xcalibor>
handling and posting
<Zadeh>
ah, s&h
<Xcalibor>
shipping and handling, LOL
<Xcalibor>
:)
<Zadeh>
you are still in spain?
<Xcalibor>
i was then invited to join in a tsalagi circle by email, it was a very rewarding experience...
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, ah, you laugh at the American usage of "shipping" where the rest of you use "posting"? :)
<Xcalibor>
yes, i returned to do my phd, then started to work... i'm now living in madrid
<Zadeh>
hablas espanol?
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: no, just at the difference... i am used to buy in amazon.co.uk you see ;-)
<Xcalibor>
claro :-)
<Zadeh>
tengo dos anos de la escuela (sp?)
<Zadeh>
en espanol
* Xcalibor
speaks spanish and galician (a co-dialect of portugese) as native languages...
* Zadeh
has never heard of galican
<Xcalibor>
ah, genial :-) está bien dicho, pero no tienews la letra 'ñ' :)
<Xcalibor>
old europe is much more complex than the usa in linguistic terms :)
<Xcalibor>
there are 4 official languages in spain, plus some 7-9 dialects of those languages more or less in life use nowadays
<Zadeh>
What are the official languages besides spanish?
<Smerdyakov>
Spanish++, Objective Spanish, ...
<Zadeh>
haha
<Xcalibor>
galician is spoken in the NW quarter of Spain, and the ancient galician is the parent language of modern portuguese and some other 3 dialects
<Xcalibor>
:)
<Xcalibor>
no, the official languages of SPain are spanish (country wide), Galician (in Galicia), Catalan (in Calaluña (Calalonia?), País Valenciano and Islas Baleares (the East coast of Spain) and Euskara in the Basque Country (Euskadi)
<Xcalibor>
plus one community of Occitanian (not recognised)
<Zadeh>
Only heard of catalan.. I'm an ignernt amerikkan. ;)
<Smerdyakov>
You didn't know the Basque Country has a separate language?
<Zadeh>
nope nope
<Xcalibor>
Bable (a modern dialect of ancient astur-lionese right to the left of galician territory) and an obscure mix of spanish and arabian in the south, which I am not aware it has even a name
<Smerdyakov>
Zadeh, gosh. Basque separatists have been big in the news in the last years.
<Zadeh>
I don't watch tv or read much news. Maybe thats why.
<Xcalibor>
Occitatian was actually one of the two main France romance languages (not celtic language like Breton) but the surviving peopulation is in Spain
<Smerdyakov>
I don't watch TV either. The Internet has lots of useful information.
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: yup... and they still are
<teratorn>
tv is the devil
<bk_>
i agree
<Zadeh>
so, whats up with the basque separatists?
<Xcalibor>
not always... tv sometimes has good things... like Ally McBeal, Northern Exposure or The Powerpuff Girls
<Zadeh>
eeek
<Xcalibor>
some of them want to have lots of money and have created a bussiness around the separatist we-are-better meme that a clergyman thought by the end of the XIX century
<Xcalibor>
so they put a bomb here or there from time to time, and get lots of money from illegal activities linked to the government, a "revolutionary tax" and things like that
<Xcalibor>
unfortunately the meme is so big that many people think they are really special and they don't live in democracy and all that bullshit
<Zadeh>
whoa
<Xcalibor>
so there's those who are in bussiness, then the goverment ridden by the meme and supporters who think the ones in the bussiness worl for their goal (they don't) and thenm there are normal people
<Zadeh>
Do they think they are the fourth reich (sp?)?
<Xcalibor>
so many people think they kill to get the freedom of their 'country'... but it's not actually the case
<Xcalibor>
Zadeh: they think they are like the Chosen of God
<Xcalibor>
it's almost a religion
<Xcalibor>
a secular religion, if you want...
<Zadeh>
amazing that such a thing can occur on such a large scale
<Xcalibor>
well, the media help a lot
<teratorn>
what are you talking about, again?
<Xcalibor>
and curruption in politics runs pretty high in spain, unfortunately :-/
<Xcalibor>
corruption, I mean
<Zadeh>
teratorn: basque separatists
<teratorn>
oh hum
<Smerdyakov>
Corruption is inherent in government conceived of as separate from "the people."
<teratorn>
yay democracy, or something
<Xcalibor>
a mafia disguised as freedom fighters who are called terrorists
<Xcalibor>
and a meme of the chosen ones that runs in paralel...
<teratorn>
sounds fun
<Xcalibor>
it is actually not fun
<teratorn>
spain was/still is/used to be a democracy right?
<Xcalibor>
but when you think about it applying some logics, it almost gets ridiculous
<teratorn>
yeah figures it wouldn't be :(
<bk_>
.oO( Franco )
<Xcalibor>
it is since 1978 when we voted our constitution to be a parliamentary monarchy
<teratorn>
so you have elections and shit?
<Xcalibor>
bk_: nod... but Franco dead in 1975
<Xcalibor>
teratorn: of course we have
<teratorn>
i'm starting to think not so highly of democracy nowadays...
<teratorn>
they're pretty much failing everywhere
<Smerdyakov>
Democracy is a general principle, not a blueprint for a society.
<Xcalibor>
actually George Bush Jr's brother, the Florida guy (or wa it Texas) got confused and called Spain a republic when the Irak war was being sold to the public opinion... it was pretty fun
<teratorn>
Smerdyakov: yeah, it's a flawed principle, I do believe..
<Zadeh>
oh, in HS there was a spanish foreign exchange student in my history class, and we got to a section that talked about Spain and he got offended, stood up and did some kind of salute and hailed to Franco and left
<Smerdyakov>
teratorn, how so?
* bk_
shall not take part in anything even remotely related to politics or discussion thereof
<Xcalibor>
teratorn: democracy is only flawed in the way that allows people not to participate in it, and goverments to encourage that by not teaching their people properly... voting is not democracy, specially if they don't let you vote what's important to you, only what's in the laws they control
<teratorn>
Smerdyakov: well, i can't say i've researched it fully (yet), but the first thing you should notice is the motivation that politician have.
* Zadeh
mumbles something about inherently flawed voting systems
<Smerdyakov>
teratorn, a society that applies democracy need not have any politicians.
<teratorn>
voting doesn't matter so much really -- people keep voting for the same old thing (same old broken promises)
<Xcalibor>
teratorn: I mean, Pericles's democracy wasn't flawed, specially for the times it was developed... in many ways it was much more democratic than nowadays democracies...
<teratorn>
Xcalibor: how'd that work?
<teratorn>
btw, i've got a few links you all might find interesting..
<Xcalibor>
well... numbers of people involved were much much bigger then nowadays
<Smerdyakov>
Xcalibor, raw numbers or proportions?
<teratorn>
World War I as the End of Civilization by Hans-Hermann Hoppe (University of Nevada, Las Vegas). http://mises.org/mp3/War/War8a.mp3
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: proportions... nowadtays equivalents would make the senate somewhere near the 150,000 senators
<teratorn>
the guys got a crazy german accent, but it's a good lecture, imho..
<Xcalibor>
and there was a lesser body that consisted of citizens that would run up to several millions if all of them went to the discussion/votings...
<teratorn>
Smerdyakov: i'm not sure what you mean by a democracy w/o politicians
<Smerdyakov>
teratorn, democracy is the principle of deciding issues by popular vote.
<Smerdyakov>
teratorn, there is no inherent role of "politician."
<teratorn>
well, there's always someone who has to implement the outcome of the vote
<Xcalibor>
Smerdyakov: a direct participant democracy would need that people knew about state matters in order to present, defend and discuss proposals that were later voted... but people doesn't know and mostly doesn't care except if is expensive for them...
<teratorn>
people have to run the voting apparatus..
<Smerdyakov>
teratorn, you call an old lady running the polls today a "politician"?
<teratorn>
no
<teratorn>
i'm jsut saying
<teratorn>
if you vote on something
<teratorn>
then you have to trust someone to follow through with it. on a nation wide scale, i don't see how you can get by without a relatively large governmental organization.
<teratorn>
hence, politicians, or "caretakers", or whatever you like to call them.
<Smerdyakov>
If everyone implements ideas equally, then how do you name things?
<teratorn>
i'm confused :)
<Xcalibor>
teratorn: organizers would be a better term for those...
<Smerdyakov>
Explain why there need to be people who "implement vote results" and people who don't.
<Xcalibor>
they simply organize the voting process until a conclusion is reached
<teratorn>
Smerdyakov: It would be easier if you just told me how it works without such people :)
<Smerdyakov>
teratorn, OK. You, me, Xcalibor, Mickey Mouse, and The Spirit of St. Louis want to go out to lunch, but we don't know where to go.
<Smerdyakov>
teratorn, so we take a vote on which restaurant to patronize and we all go to the winner.
<teratorn>
ok, so it's just an "everybody just gets along" kind of thing :)
<Smerdyakov>
Thousands of people do what I just said every day, so you can't say it wouldn't work..
<Smerdyakov>
And you also can't say it isn't democracy
<teratorn>
i wasn't thinking of democracy quite like that
<bk_>
but real-world politics are also, first and foremost, about the distribution of wealth and ressources, so the restaurant example doesn't quite fit
<Smerdyakov>
teratorn, oh yeeeah... this Mises guy is a fascist bastard I've seen before.
<teratorn>
i agree that you could fairly consider that to be democracy
<teratorn>
Smerdyakov: what!?
<teratorn>
i think you have the wrong guy.
<Xcalibor>
bk_: by going to a restaurtant or another yo uare already spreading wealth... at a microscale, ok, but it's wealth nevertheless
<Smerdyakov>
teratorn, Mises..
<teratorn>
yes?
<Smerdyakov>
teratorn, I consider free-marketeers to be honorary fascists ;)
<teratorn>
why's that?
<Smerdyakov>
Based on their usual psychological profiles
<teratorn>
i think you're mistaken. austrian economics has nothing to do with psychology.
<teratorn>
it's a seperate area of study.
<Smerdyakov>
I'm talking about the psychological characteristics of adherents of Austrian economics.
<Smerdyakov>
Their theories need not mention psychology at all.
<teratorn>
psychology says _why_ someone choosing specific ends. economics says what means much be employed if specific ends are choosen (such as the greatest possible expansion of material wealth, for example).
<teratorn>
s/choosing/chooses
<teratorn>
Smerdyakov: oh, i misunderstood you.
<teratorn>
Smerdyakov: could you give an example?
<bk_>
gn8 folks
bk_ has quit ["I'll be back"]
<teratorn>
and anyway
<Smerdyakov>
I think libertarians in general completely underestimate the potential for gain by working together with others in an organized way.
<teratorn>
the psychological profile of a person doesn't validate nor invalidate a persons theories...
<teratorn>
Smerdyakov: the potential gain is _percisely_ what libertarians are after.
<Smerdyakov>
Right, but it can be a good hint about them.
<teratorn>
we don't need hints to explode fallacious ideas :)
<teratorn>
reason will do :)
<Smerdyakov>
With finite time, hints can be valuable time-savers.
<teratorn>
eh, we're gettin side-tracked...
<Smerdyakov>
I think the building of a social edifice for the mutual benefit of its members is something that takes a long time to get right.
<teratorn>
damnit I can't spell tonight...
<Smerdyakov>
So it's beneficial to have continuity in social structures over time, a la libertarian socialism.
<teratorn>
yeah, i totally agree, except with the conclusion ;)
<teratorn>
well, i've never heard of "libertarian socialism"
<Smerdyakov>
You may have heard it called "anarchism."
<teratorn>
it's different than anarcho-capitalism
<teratorn>
?
<Smerdyakov>
Yes
<Smerdyakov>
It is based around voluntary association and absence of any hierarchical power structures.
<teratorn>
ok
<teratorn>
well first of all
<teratorn>
i believe in power structures, in so far as economic productions is concerned -- the best men and women ought to be the ones seeing to the wants and needs of consumers.
<teratorn>
profits motivate them to do that, losses remove those that are unable to produce as efficiently.
<teratorn>
that's all very simplified, of course..
<teratorn>
s/as efficiently/efficiently enough
<Smerdyakov>
And I believe that hierarchical power structures are counterproductive, given that we humans are not robots and have feelings that can be hurt.
<Smerdyakov>
Not to mention that factors like family inheritance and influence lead to a situation where we absolutely do not have "the best people" by any metric in positions of power.
<teratorn>
even people who live off savings must invest it wisely, and renew it's value on a regular basis. wise investment provides better for the consumers whereas unwise investment is rewarded with losses the error revealed by the choices that consumers make.
<teratorn>
capitalism is certainly not without waste -- malinvestment.
<Smerdyakov>
There is a huge difference in opportunity per effort for people born into different socio-economic classes.
<teratorn>
but so far i've seen socialism be quite a bit more wasteful.
<Smerdyakov>
Socialism hasn't been implemented faithfully on any large scale for very long without interference.
<teratorn>
Smerdyakov: absolutely, and it is quite a shame. but it's hardly capitalisms fault.
<teratorn>
Smerdyakov: neither has capitalism ;)
<teratorn>
Anyway, i'm about to go to bed.
<teratorn>
do you have any books that support your theories? wanna trade? =)