<Smerdyakov>
I don't think the revised syntax has any serious traction outside the mind of the campl4 author, and just serves as a nuisance. ;)
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<Shimei>
I like some of it, but the pattern matching syntax seems particularly nasty (the brackets).
<Smerdyakov>
Liking it or not is not very relevant. There is too much OCaml code already out there for it to be practical to switch.
<Shimei>
Yeah. I imagine so. Couldn't it be gradually phased in if it's introduced while maintaining backwards compatibility though?
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<Smerdyakov>
I think that's almost 100% unlikely given the social factors.
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<whatsup103>
back to trying to make my csv stuff
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<whatsup103>
i have this csv library .........where do i place it ? usually every library i install .......when i do make install / my package system it puts it in the right location
<whatsup103>
but yea i donmt know where ocaml libs are suppose to go
<stevan_>
whatsup103: I installed the OS X binary from http://caml.inria.fr/ and all the libs are in /usr/local/lib/ocaml/stie-lib
<stevan_>
your milage may vary
<whatsup103>
dark_light: that csv thing provided many examples including ways how they iter'd things
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<whatsup103>
there was some FLTK bidnings floating around somewhere anyone know where they are ?
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<mbishop>
is it just me, or is the "revised syntax" a lot like SML?
<whatsup103>
im stil stumped how to dump this into the DB now hmmmmmm
<whatsup103>
i got it to read and iter just need to dump now
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<dark_light>
whatsup103, :)
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* whatsup103
installs MySQL-Ocaml bindings
<whatsup103>
dark_light: the mullata women on the beaches are beautifuuuul
<dark_light>
aahahahaha oh man
<dark_light>
they are beautiful, but this effect on tourists is very bad for brazil :-(
<dark_light>
but, whatever.. :P
<whatsup103>
what?
<whatsup103>
dark_light: mullata is different from mullata in usa
<whatsup103>
mullata in usa means like pretty much black with some white
<whatsup103>
here i see tan ass white girls calling themselves mullata
<dark_light>
well i don't use really the term mullata
<whatsup103>
dark_light: 2ndly im no tourist :D ..........i live in rio .......but i goto some tourist spots every now and then
<dark_light>
but the term here means black+white too :P
<whatsup103>
mullata in usa is highly racist to say lol
<mbishop>
Really?
<mbishop>
never heard of it
<whatsup103>
yes
<whatsup103>
very racist
<whatsup103>
mbishop: where do you live ?
<mbishop>
Louisiana, so you'd think I'd know all about racist terms :P
<whatsup103>
what part of lousi,
<mbishop>
actually, mullata is starting to sound kind of familiar, but never heard anyone say it
<mbishop>
the south...about 60 miles south of new orleans
<whatsup103>
i see
<whatsup103>
I prefer Miami
<whatsup103>
:D
<whatsup103>
dark_light: also i think it was you that told me rio de janeiro was all black and no white peole was it ?
<whatsup103>
dark_light: half the city is white
<dark_light>
well i don't said that
<dark_light>
but i don't know exactly what is white
<whatsup103>
lol
<dark_light>
actually for me white is RGB #FFFFFF and i didn't know anyone that is white. lol
<whatsup103>
lol
<dark_light>
i really prefer do not refer skin color óo
<whatsup103>
maybe it wasnt you ;0
<whatsup103>
im peach :D
<whatsup103>
netter :)
<whatsup103>
better
<dark_light>
whatsup103, here racism is a bit hidden, too :P
<dark_light>
i think i am yellow
<dark_light>
i look like yellow
<dark_light>
:P
<whatsup103>
lol
<whatsup103>
asian :D
<whatsup103>
my origianl skin color is like peach .........but being in rio will make you bronze
<dark_light>
i really hate the sun, if i liked it i would become a bit black i think
<whatsup103>
move to new york city
<whatsup103>
you will become light i promise
<dark_light>
yeah :(
<whatsup103>
might take a few years :D
<whatsup103>
casue i am a very light peach color normally ..............not albino or sickly looking ;) but i have been living in miami and puerto rico for years so i am very dark ...........and i moved ot canad for 2 years and still never got my original skin color back
<whatsup103>
but i like what i got now so yea :D
<whatsup103>
im suprised i see tanning salons in rio
<whatsup103>
........thats the stupidest thing ever
<dark_light>
tanning salons?
<whatsup103>
thing girls goto and lay in a bed and get dark
<dark_light>
ahahahaha
<whatsup103>
you know ?
<dark_light>
yeah
<whatsup103>
rio is covered with them lol
<dark_light>
it is strange, but.. :o
<whatsup103>
lol
<whatsup103>
the sun is free :D
<dark_light>
if rio was very cold, i could understand it
<dark_light>
yeah :P
<whatsup103>
me too
<whatsup103>
same way in miami though miami is almost like rio weather wise
<whatsup103>
all them cuban girls goto the tanning salons like crazy
<dark_light>
but, well, it's more likely i want get dark then i want go to the beach :P
<whatsup103>
i goto beach 2-3 days a week
<whatsup103>
play volleyball
<dark_light>
(but well maybe someday i will change my mind about beachs..)
<whatsup103>
you dont goto beach ?
<dark_light>
never
<whatsup103>
lol
<dark_light>
lol
<whatsup103>
damn
<whatsup103>
beach is fun ........i play volleyball with alot of women :D
<dark_light>
it's very hot. :(.
<whatsup103>
and when i first got there i didnt speak porturgese all to well .........and they all wanted ot talk ot me and some of the guys started calling me gringo n shit
<whatsup103>
but this girl across the street i have to help her with her english for school :D
<whatsup103>
:X
<whatsup103>
shes real hot
<whatsup103>
although the name Rafaela ...........i dont like to well ...........reminds me of a ninja turtle
<dark_light>
ahahahhaha
<whatsup103>
you remember ninja turtles ?
<dark_light>
yeah
<dark_light>
donatello
<dark_light>
well, almost
<whatsup103>
and Rafael
<dark_light>
but rafaela is a fine name for me
<whatsup103>
yea i like it now too but still :D
<whatsup103>
it reminds me of ninja turtle :D
<whatsup103>
out of all the places i have lived the usa and brazil have more in common then any other country i have saw
<dark_light>
whatsup103, but still it's strange for me if a brazillian, in brazil, wants to talk with a american in english. :P
<dark_light>
sorry :P
<whatsup103>
what you mean ?
<whatsup103>
its just curiocity i guessss
<whatsup103>
alot of people want to talk to me in english
<whatsup103>
at store and stuff
<dark_light>
whatsup103, i see it like.. lack of nacionality
<dark_light>
but, whatever :P
<dark_light>
nacionalism
<whatsup103>
nationality ?
<dark_light>
love for it's own country
<whatsup103>
ummmmmmm
<whatsup103>
lol
<whatsup103>
language has nothing to do with the country
<dark_light>
love for it's own language
<dark_light>
lol
<whatsup103>
people want to know more then one :D
<whatsup103>
you know english well ..........whats wrong with that :D
<dark_light>
i am in a international channel, it's different :P
<dark_light>
:PPP
<whatsup103>
lol
<whatsup103>
soo you dont like sun no beach .........
<whatsup103>
hate other languages
<whatsup103>
:( lol
<dark_light>
you are exaggerating :P
<whatsup103>
:D
<whatsup103>
didnt you say you wanted ot move to switherland one time tooo ?
<whatsup103>
lol
<dark_light>
yeah, and there i would speak whatever the language they speaks
<whatsup103>
lol \
<dark_light>
that's what i am saying
<whatsup103>
<< hate switcherland
<whatsup103>
socilist paradise
<dark_light>
i don't know really what country is this
<dark_light>
ahn..
<whatsup103>
lol
<whatsup103>
its a socilist paradise government takes all your money
<dark_light>
it's in europe? :P
<whatsup103>
yes
<whatsup103>
lol
<whatsup103>
i am business owner
<whatsup103>
i dont like government taking 70 percent of my money
<dark_light>
ok, i really don't know what you are talking about
<whatsup103>
look at map of europe and how small all of it is
<dark_light>
they speaks german, italian, french and romanish? nice=)
<dark_light>
yeah
* dark_light
likes small nations
<whatsup103>
the whole european union could fit into the usa
<whatsup103>
maybe brazil lol
<dark_light>
whatsup103, that's exactly why they can manage themselves well
<dark_light>
brazil is a very corrupt nation
<whatsup103>
i dis agree
<dark_light>
whatsup103, what about talking in PVT? lol :P
<whatsup103>
depemnds on where you live
<whatsup103>
:D
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<flux__>
hmm.. the ocaml compiler (and why not other compilers too) could make educated guesses about the reasons of the error based on the indentation of the code..
<flux__>
like if the same line is indented to begin at the same column as the previous line, and the previous line misses a ;, and the previous line also has a function-specific type error, it could suggest that maybe ; is missing
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<love-pingoo>
flux__: I guess that would be a huge change, since the lexer/parser completely forgets about whitespace
<flux__>
hm, good point
<flux__>
but would it be a huge change to store it somewhere?
<flux__>
although the code does get mangled quite a bit
<flux__>
hey, all pieces of code have their locations, right?
<love-pingoo>
that's right
<flux__>
so it could simply scan the nearby elements and look for their locations
<love-pingoo>
so the indentation could be retrieved from that
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<whatsup103>
whats that one website where alot of ocaml projkects are stored
<whatsup103>
im looking for the ocaml-FLTK bidning
<whatsup103>
binding
<flux__>
I always google for 'caml hump'
<whatsup103>
not that
<whatsup103>
theres another one
<whatsup103>
kinda like a sourceforge
<flux__>
yes, I recall seeing another one too..
<flux__>
please find and tell :-)
<whatsup103>
looking for that ocaml fltk thing
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<whatsup103>
flux__: do those binding generators work well ?
<flux__>
I haven't really used any
<whatsup103>
casue they are using them for D for certain things
<whatsup103>
so i wonder if it would wor kas well for Ocaml
<whatsup103>
be cool to use QT or whatever you want in it
<pango_>
the only mention of ocaml-fltk bindings on the web is in an article that uses it as an example of weird library dependancy... Seems it was invented for the argument, there's no sign of such thing already existing
<whatsup103>
hmmmmmm
<pango_>
it's used to teach compilation techniques
<whatsup103>
isee
<whatsup103>
so could it be better then the regualr compiler ?
<pango_>
it probably has 10% of the regular compiler features, so yes, if you only use those 10%...
<whatsup103>
since only 2.6+ comps use epoll anyways prolly wouldnt be smart to even use it
<flux__>
but the library provides backward compatibility, doesn't it?
<flux__>
also I imagine these days 2.6 is quite common..
<flux__>
atleast if you want performance
<whatsup103>
its only 1 connection
<whatsup103>
an im client
<whatsup103>
:D
<flux__>
well, the interface might still be convenient
<whatsup103>
what do you mean ?
<whatsup103>
i mean theres a libevent that provides it just fine
<whatsup103>
i was trying to find a gtk+ patch that provides it
<pango_>
whatsup103: I already mentionned libevent to you (as youknow365 at the time :) ) September 3rd ;)
<whatsup103>
ooooooo
<whatsup103>
:D
<whatsup103>
i must have skiffed over it
<pango_>
but even at the time it was overkill for an im client ;)
<whatsup103>
well i got it done now with select
<whatsup103>
./ poll
<whatsup103>
but i could always improve it
<flux__>
hmm.. about my 'how to figure out current function in camlp4'-problem, would the newsgroup or the mailing list suit it better?
<whatsup103>
i actually use the gtk library to do it
<whatsup103>
but heh
<whatsup103>
your right using epoll would be an overkill and i would loose the multiplatformnesss
<flux__>
I actually want to make a macro that checks if the name of the current function may be found from a hashtable, and if so, perform an operation.. like DEBUG "hello, %s" msg
<flux__>
although I suppose in the first stage I could just forget the hash table
<pango_>
whatsup103: not thru libevent, that uses what's available on current platform
<whatsup103>
i wanted ot use
<whatsup103>
the gtk+ way though
<whatsup103>
libeven was a good find
<whatsup103>
but would add more file size to the app and another required lib to include
<whatsup103>
probably wouldnt add to much but the benefit doesnt outweigh
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<whatsup103>
theres a bug open now to add epoll support so im guessing it probably will get released in there in a little while anywho so yea
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<llama32>
are any of the ocaml JIT projects actually working on current releases and in continued development?
<haelix>
llama32: didn't know there were several of them
<haelix>
I only knew about ocamljit. Do you have links to any others ?
<llama32>
haelix: i thought i'd run into a few dead[ish?] projects, but it was probably just one
<haelix>
:)
<haelix>
well as usual you're free... to pick one up and make it livish again.
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<haelix>
Or, you may stick with F#
<Smerdyakov>
Worse fates exist!
<llama32>
does F# work on mono?
<haelix>
no idea. I'd be surprised that assembly zouldnot work, though
<haelix>
Am I the only one dreaming here that closures,
<haelix>
In a JITted environnment
<llama32>
im worried that since it's got closures and such, it might be more dependant on microsoft's implementation of .NET - whereas mono might not have such things working in a stable state
<haelix>
might be partially evaluated
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<haelix>
and be further optimized
<llama32>
hmm
<haelix>
in order to squeeze a bit more performance
<haelix>
think of a runtime constructed (which profiling shows is heavily used) DFA,
<haelix>
btree,
<haelix>
whatever
<llama32>
F# looks interesting [i was just looking at MLj and SML.NET which are similar i guess]
<terpstra>
the MS research website for F# is down.. lol
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<llama32>
i think i'd prefer using SML.NET though - simply because it's not from microsoft [haven't seen F#'s license, but i assume it's closed source, and SML.NET's looks pretty liberal]
<llama32>
heh, must be running windows
<llama32>
does MetaOCaml have anything to do with JIT? i don't really know what multi-stage compilation is...
<terpstra>
"SML.NET is a Standard ML compiler developed at Microsoft Research Cambridge"
<terpstra>
MLj is not maintained afaik
<Smerdyakov>
Modulo the quite unfortunate problem of being closed source, you ought to take the fact that something is developed at MSR as a sign of high quality, not something to complain about.
<llama32>
hmm, how come it has a microsoft.com and a non-microsoft.com website?
<terpstra>
MS research works with other universities
<terpstra>
some of the guys who work there are pretty cool
<terpstra>
they even do P2P research ;-)
<terpstra>
it's a fact of life that the only big business sponsored research group is MS research
<terpstra>
sad, but true
<llama32>
hmm, is F# available as source too?
<llama32>
with a "do as you will, but don't blame me" license
<terpstra>
i assume it builds on ocaml code, so it presumably has the same license
<haelix>
terpstra: you're a bit tough on that. IBM and HP do fund their bit of research
<haelix>
IBM: alphaworks
<terpstra>
haelix, both of them have been cutting funding
<terpstra>
whereas MS has been increasing it
<haelix>
HP Labs
<terpstra>
look -- i am no fan of MS myself
* llama32
hates microsoft :)
<llama32>
and firefox :| which just froze :|
<terpstra>
one can hate MS, and still appreciate the guys at MS research tho
<haelix>
I prefer Linux, have no special feeling about windows, but MS Research sure looks like a sexy place to work at
<terpstra>
often they even GPL their work
<terpstra>
yeah, i've thought about it oo
<terpstra>
but then i'd have to explain to all my friends that i hadn't REALLY gone to the dark side
<llama32>
google seems to put some effort into research too
<Smerdyakov>
terpstra, I find that _almost_everyone_ who works at MSR is cool. Do you have data to the contrary? :)
<terpstra>
nope
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<Smerdyakov>
terpstra, which MSR projects are you thinking of that went open source? I know they have a length legal process as a prerequisite for doing that.
<Smerdyakov>
s/length/lengthy
<terpstra>
i didn't realize google had a research team?
<Smerdyakov>
Google has a tiny pool of employees designated as researchers.
<terpstra>
i thought they just hired people with PhDs and gave them one day a week to do their own thibng?
<llama32>
is there any real difference between SML [+ SML.NET OO extensions] and OCaml [F#]? other than just differently named functions and such?
<Smerdyakov>
They make offers to blindingly smart people with PhDs without giving them the chance to enter that set of researchers.
<llama32>
terpstra: yeah, i think they give 20% free research time or something
<Smerdyakov>
llama32, yes, huge differences, but I don't have time to enumerate them now.
<terpstra>
Smerdyakov, i didn't know
<terpstra>
sml.net extends sml in many ways
<terpstra>
which is why i don't much like it; sml is nice b/c it's simple
<Smerdyakov>
terpstra, _do_ you have example of GPL'd software from MSR?
<terpstra>
oh, sorry - overlooked that
<Smerdyakov>
terpstra, and it has to be software developed when the involved parties were all at MSR.
<terpstra>
well, bsd
<haelix>
Smerdyakov: I know about the "detour" library
<terpstra>
i am not 100% sure about gpl
<terpstra>
let me check
<Smerdyakov>
terpstra, so anything about GHC can't count. :)
<haelix>
which is at least open source
<terpstra>
oh
<terpstra>
and i don't know how to tell appart "all parties at msr" vs. some??
<haelix>
(something to do with win32 call interception. Don't realize how big a deal this is, but this is an open source msr project)
<Smerdyakov>
terpstra, I add that particularly to exclude GHC. I think SPJ made a special deal with them to allow him to work on this established open source project.
<terpstra>
research.microsoft.com is down :-P
<Smerdyakov>
haelix, OK.
<terpstra>
i was going to check splitstream and pastry
<terpstra>
but -- no website ;-)
<llama32>
terpstra: microsoft software running on servers is a fairly ambitious research project afterall
<haelix>
Smerdyakov: perhaps more significant is Rotor (the open source .Net framework form MS. Should even compile and run on MacOs)
<llama32>
terpstra: can't expect anything to really work until 2040-ish
<terpstra>
there was that ms installer too
<Smerdyakov>
haelix, I don't think that's MSR.
<terpstra>
but i think that's bsd
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<terpstra>
ok, pastry is "BSD-like" not GPL
<haelix>
Then... what I'd like to get my hands on are "Bartok" (a fully managed C# OS)
<haelix>
and Terminator
<terpstra>
so, you could be right about there being none that are gpl
<haelix>
(a program terminationo rpoofer)
<terpstra>
they may all be bsd
<Smerdyakov>
I'm flexible about which open source license is involved. I know that you have to go through Hell and back to release anything open source from MSR today.
<haelix>
but well.. not even binaries available :)
<terpstra>
it's hard to check via google cache :-P
<Smerdyakov>
haelix, Bartok is a compiler, not an OS. I think you mean Singularity.
<terpstra>
fix your servers MSR!
<llama32>
oddly enough, wikipedia tells me Rotor runs on "Windows, MacOSX and FreeBSD"... i mean FreeBSD is understandably similar to OSX, but seems odd to mention that it works on FreeBSD without saying anything about wether or not it runs on linux
<haelix>
terpstra: no they don't - so we can fantasize all we can !
<llama32>
perhaps someone got the BSD license confused with FreeBSD
<haelix>
Smerdyakov: you must be right
<terpstra>
llama32, why do you want an ML running on .NET / JVM?
<Smerdyakov>
haelix, I should be; I interned in that project. :)
<haelix>
ok :) Congrats for that, btw.
<llama32>
terpstra: i sorta like .NET's language-independent-ness, plus there aren't [to my knowledge] any decent/fast/well-supported ml compilers that produce dynamically linkable code with some sort of OO capability, but SML.NET, F# and MLj do this
<Smerdyakov>
dark_light, the function that you are asking about is named 'read'?
<dark_light>
ah, yes
<Smerdyakov>
dark_light, no, it isn't tail recursive, because of the exception handler.
<dark_light>
(but ok the whole function isn't working btw)
<terpstra>
cool - F# should work on mono according to the wiki
<Smerdyakov>
terpstra, someone already said that here.
<terpstra>
didn't see that
<dark_light>
Smerdyakov, if i transform this into a type like Value of 'a | Except_EOF, the function could be recursive?
<dark_light>
ops.
<dark_light>
tail recursive
<Smerdyakov>
dark_light, I think I get what you mean, though it's not really clear; you will see a similar thing suggested in some OCaml FAQ.
* llama32
is off to bed
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<dark_light>
Smerdyakov, i don't like having to transform exceptions in concrete/variant/etc types
<terpstra>
anyways, bye all
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<dark_light>
by..
<dark_light>
all gone
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<mellum>
Is there some simple way to implement a purely functional union/find with reasonable performance?
<Smerdyakov>
You can always implement any imperative algorithm with only a log factor speed degradation. If that's reasonable to you, then you have your answer.
<dark_light>
Smerdyakov, you are serious?
<Smerdyakov>
dark_light, yes.
<dark_light>
Smerdyakov, i though functional algorithms could have ever at leat the same complexity of imperative equivalents
<Smerdyakov>
dark_light, would you mind rewriting that line with attention to proper English grammar? I can't understand it. ;)
<dark_light>
Smerdyakov, the problem is: i don't know the proper english grammar, i am a bad student of english at brazil
<dark_light>
but say me the parts you didn't understand well :D
<Smerdyakov>
dark_light, I see two possible fixings of what you said:
<Smerdyakov>
Choice A) "I though functional algorithms could always be as time-efficient as imperative algorithms."
<Smerdyakov>
Choice B) "I though some problems intrinsically have much faster imperative solutions than functional solutions."
<Smerdyakov>
s/though/thought
<dark_light>
Smerdyakov, choice A
<Smerdyakov>
dark_light, I don't know how to disprove the statement, but I think it's widely belived to be false.
<dark_light>
very nice :)
<dark_light>
i mean: many important computer science statments are only beliefs (like NP = P), and that is nice
<dark_light>
a young science :)
<bluestorm>
hum isn't the common belief than NP != P ?
<mellum>
Smerdyakov: Well, I just thought there might be something more elegant.
<dark_light>
bluestorm, exactly, common belief
<bluestorm>
hm mellum
<bluestorm>
i one time read about a "zipper" thing, who looked a bit like the union/find path compression
<bluestorm>
but it may be completely wrong as well
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<stevan>
I have a really simple question, but I cannot seem to find an answer anywhere
<stevan>
I am getting the error "Reference to undefined global `ExtLib'"
<stevan>
when I try and use a .cma file I compiled
<Smerdyakov>
Did you read the first page of the ExtLib documentation?
<stevan>
it was compiled with "ocamlfind ocamlc -package extLib -c *.mli"
<Smerdyakov>
I don't know about ExtLib in particular, but every library bundled with OCaml answers this question on its first page of documentation.
<stevan>
Smerdyakov: thanks, I will check
<stevan>
Smerdyakov: it doesn't say anything regarding this
<stevan>
I suspect I am just missing a compiler flag somewhere maybe
<Smerdyakov>
stevan, then pick a random library bundled with OCaml and reads its first page of documentation,.
<malc_>
stevan: a) what's the point in compiling .mli s only?
<malc_>
stevan: b) obviously the error is linker, yet you only show how you _compile_ (interfaces)
<stevan>
malc_: sorry, that was an incorrect paste,.. i compile both mli and ml
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<stevan>
malc_: I am using OCamlMakefile, and not doing anything fancy,
<malc_>
stevan: basically what the linker has told you, is that it can't find a global named 'ExtLib' in all of the objects libraries that has been supplied
<malc_>
hence, extlib.cma (or whatever the name, never used it) is missing
<malc_>
correction. is missing or is incorrect position w.r.t. objects that reference said global
<stevan>
ah
<stevan>
hmm, that might be the difference
<malc_>
i'd go and try to make something minimal work.. like file consisting of just open ExtLib (or whatever)
<Smerdyakov>
stevan, did you read the first page of documentation of any library bundled with OCaml?
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<stevan>
Smerdyakov: yes, many,.. none specifically reference my problem nor give any clues
<Smerdyakov>
stevan, OK, so lines like this aren't relevant?
<Smerdyakov>
Programs that use the unix library must be linked as follows:
<Smerdyakov>
ocamlc other options unix.cma other files
<twobitsprite>
So... I am completely stumped on my ocamlyacc thinger still... I've worked through ever possible parsing scenario that I can think of and have no idea why I have conflicts...
<twobitsprite>
I've also reordered everything every possible way I can think of... left recursion, right recursion, etc
<stevan>
Smerdyakov: there are lots of modules bundled with Ocaml, if you had a specific one (and a specific line within one) in mind, it would be have been helpful ifyou mentioned it
<Smerdyakov>
stevan, no, I said _libraries_, not modules.
<stevan>
Smerdyakov: it seems from the makefile output that extlib is not being inlcuded when the library is linked
<Smerdyakov>
stevan, every _library_'s documentation starts with that approximate text.
<stevan>
Smerdyakov: thank you
<stevan>
I think my issue is more related to OCamlMakefile actually
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<stevan>
Smerdyakov: I found it, I was missing a flag for OCamlMakefile to pass it into the linker
<stevan>
this will teach me to watch my makefile output closer :)
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