cjeris changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/
<mbishop> 3A
<mbishop> whoops
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<EliasAmaral> esdee, "Sorry, an error has occurred. Reason: That is an invalid ID, or the post has expired.". discovered why?
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<esdee> nope, its just a simple tcp server. If I create the socket, then fork/setsid, the fd becomes invalid
<esdee> repasted: http://pastebin.ca/492430
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<flux> esdee, libevent is seriously broken..
<flux> esdee, try patching libevent with these and it has actuall chances of working: http://www.modeemi.cs.tut.fi/~flux/software/ocaml-event
<flux> patches 3 and 4 being the most critical ones (but they might depend on earlier ones..)
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<esdee> same thing still. fork is supposed to work with ocamlc right?
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<esdee> nevermind, happens with ocamlopt too
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<pango_> esdee: what happens if the parent reaches exit() before the child reaches setsid() ?
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<flux> hm
<flux> so it shouldn't accept connections when the daemon-function has been called?
<flux> or something?
<flux> because it does
<flux> hm, it doesn't produce diagnostics, though
<flux> that was because it didn't flush
<flux> but it seems to work fine for me
<flux> are you sure you have the patched version of libevent in use?
<mrvn> I sometimes hate that Printf.printf doesn't flush on newline.
<flux> I've already used to putting %! in :)
<flux> infact so much that I might do that in c++ and perl, too..
<LeCamarade> :oD
<flux> esdee, btw, hint: use Unix.setsockopt Unix.SO_REUSEADDR true
<flux> it'll make testing easier..
<flux> uh
<flux> it already has that :)
<flux> ashamed - I had the daemon running :)
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<mbishop> Oh snap
<mbishop> O'Reilly called ocaml "irrelevant"
<flux> yeah, it didn't have some feature they wanted..
<flux> which was it?
* mbishop shrugs
<mbishop> I think it's bullshit that groovy is "more relevant" than Lisp
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<postalchris> mbishop: are you talking about this or something else? http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/05/state_of_the_co_10.html
<mbishop> postalchris: yeah, that's the one
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<mbishop> They don't even have Erlang as "irrelevant", it's below irrelevant apparently heh
<postalchris> It's interesting how Haskell is only "minor" and not "irrelevant"
<bluestorm> i'd say it's related to the fact that most Ocaml litterature is francophone
<mbishop> probably, I think they also don't include good publishers
<bluestorm> but actually i have to admit that the haskell community seems (from the internet) more alive than the ocaml one
<mbishop> I've seen more Ocaml code (albeit perhaps abandoned on some .edu)
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<flux> well, you've gotta give that selling a topic-related book less than 60 pcs is pretty abysaml
<flux> no matter how bad the book might be :)
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<flux> what erlang-books are out there?
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<postalchris> Does anybody here actually have the book? We could double its sales!
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<mbishop> Hah, no I don't have Practical Ocaml :P
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<ita> well, at least groovy runs on the jvm
<ita> ocaml is irrelevant, but for students :-)
<Smerdyakov> Huh? What do you mean?
<ita> Smerdyakov: there was text above
<ita> 19:26 < mbishop> O'Reilly called ocaml "irrelevant"
<Smerdyakov> There "O'Reilly" means Tim O'Reilly?
<noteventime> From what I've seen OCaml is getting rather popular :-/
<noteventime> It's not a major language but...
<ita> noteventime: yes ? how do you measure it ?
<noteventime> Just from my experience
<ita> noteventime: :-)
<noteventime> How much I read about it
<noteventime> So no measure at all :-)
<noteventime> But I choose to learn OCaml becuase it was at least a little more popular than the other languages I was looking at learning at that time
<Smerdyakov> ita, would you answer my question, please?
<ita> Smerdyakov: ask mbishop
<Smerdyakov> Eh, well, I hope no one here believes "OCaml is irrelevant."
<postalchris> Well, using the O'Reilly definition, I'd have to grant their conclusion: http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/05/state_of_the_co_10.html
<ita> Smerdyakov: (of course i do not either)
<postalchris> (The statement is not actually from Tim O'Reilly, just one of his employees.)
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<Smerdyakov> Ah, so it was a misquote if anyone meant to imply that it related to the popular notion of what "irrelevant" means.
* ita calls mbishop to explain to Smerdyakov the whole story
<Smerdyakov> I think it's a good sign to have low sales for books on a language. Relatively clueless users buy more how-to books than experts, who find what they need online.
<noteventime> err, why is ".net languages" one category
<noteventime> =
<noteventime> ?*
<noteventime> That's rather silly
<ita> rubbish
<noteventime> Almost every major language has a .net version :-P
<lde> and even some irrelevant languages ;-)
<noteventime> True :-P
<noteventime> Well, a lot of very irrelevant languages
<ita> sql counts as lisp
<ita> (it is lisp-like :-))
<flux> for an extremely lax definition of likeness?-)
<noteventime> In what ways is SQL lisp-like? :-)
<ita> stupid parenthesing
<ita> but not only
<noteventime> s-expressions for the win :-D
<noteventime> Who the hell would want C for .NET? X-D
<ita> noteventime: maybe for using win32 apis from .net ?
<noteventime> Why would you want that though? :-P
<noteventime> j/k
<noteventime> Good point
<noteventime> But why not use managed C++
<noteventime> ?
<lde> ita: (a b c ...) is lisp's list syntax
<noteventime> How is directx a programming language=
<noteventime> ?*
<ita> flux: look at lde answer
<ita> lde: you rule
<lde> (that was re 'stupid parenthesing')
<ita> lde: :-)
<noteventime> All the interesting languages are irrelevant :-P
<noteventime> or minor
<noteventime> haskell has a market share of 0.08% :-p
<noteventime> ocaml 0.01%
<Smerdyakov> Who cares about market shares, is my question.
<ita> i do
<noteventime> not me
<Smerdyakov> ita, why?
<ita> money is teh thing
<noteventime> just reading the article :-P
<Smerdyakov> ita, explain.
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<ita> look at the poor phd doing ocaml, they are underpaid
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<ita> any random j2ee guy is paid twice as much
<pattern> "i am a software professional (computer engineer) seeking friendship with a nice girl who is interested in learning computer programming free"
<Smerdyakov> ita, are you sure? That isn't my experience.
<noteventime> hehe
<ita> groovy, javascript sell 1000x much than haskell
<noteventime> I'm not hoping to make any money from programming :-P
<ita> say haskell and the hr chick says "what" ?
<Smerdyakov> ita, at least not with the job I'm starting at Jane Street.
<ita> Smerdyakov: sure, go with the frantik americans in new york
<Smerdyakov> ita, I'm having trouble understanding you.
<ita> with j2ee or .net i can go anywhere in the world
<mbishop> frantik?
<ita> with ocaml .. welcome the guys with beard and glasses
<noteventime> ita: But you won't have any fun :-)
<ita> :-)
<ita> noteventime: there are more girls
<Smerdyakov> ita, what are these J2EE superstars paid? If your argument is about money, you should have some evidence for us.
<twobitsprite> j2ee programmers are a dime a dozen
<noteventime> There are so many of them :-P
<twobitsprite> the market is flooded with under-educated and over-certified java programmers
<noteventime> They're like rabbits
<ita> Smerdyakov: in france at least, all the guys doing j2ee @engineering school found a job before finishing, the ocaml/haskell guys like me took in average 4 months to find
<ita> Smerdyakov: and right now i am doing j2ee
<Smerdyakov> ita, France sucks. It's the free market's nightmare.
<twobitsprite> ita: funny, I would imagine that france would have the best ocaml market
<mbishop> Actually
<noteventime> I'm trying to convince my school to switch to Scheme
<ita> Smerdyakov: spain same thing, ireland same thing
<mbishop> I remember hearing about COBOL programmers being payed thousands of dollars and hour
<Smerdyakov> ita, I'm perfectly willing to believe it. The USA is the only place to live today to do anything innovative.
<ita> Smerdyakov: look at the offers for .net or j2ee on monster
<ita> Smerdyakov: haha
<mbishop> why aren't you out programming COBOL if you're only doing it for the money?
<Smerdyakov> ita, have a specific link for me on those offers?
<ita> Smerdyakov: and what your company says on its page ? it is difficult finding caml programmers
<noteventime> mbishop: Hazardous to your health :-)
<mbishop> noteventime: well so is java :P
<Smerdyakov> ita, where does it say that it's difficult? It's really easy.
<ita> mbishop: actually, cobol pays well too
<noteventime> mbishop: Not quite as bad though
<noteventime> ;-)
<mbishop> ita: that's what I said, so if you're only interested in the money, why not program COBOL all day
<ita> Smerdyakov: the janestreet website, ive seen it in the gmail ads a few weeks ago - it made me laugh
<Smerdyakov> ita, what did it say?
<ita> mbishop: well, i could
<noteventime> Well, Boring language = Boring job = Boring programmers :-P
<ita> noteventime: in j2ee and .net there are more chicks - cobol tends to go down
<noteventime> If I had to work for a company it would be in R&D
<twobitsprite> ita: you program for the chicks...?
<noteventime> ita: Probably got the wrong job then :-P
<ita> Smerdyakov: it said it is difficult to find ocaml programmers anywhere, which does not surprize me
<ita> twobitsprite: no, but i prefer working in a nice environment
<Smerdyakov> ita, I've never seen any post from Jane Street saying that, and they have an article that says it's easy.
<ita> noteventime: oh well .. now i am teaching the juniors and doing the architecture part - it is not too disappointing
<noteventime> ita: I don't think "chicks" is any idea for me anyway ;-) Doing either math or CS
<noteventime> ita: The further away you get from the language Java itself the better I guess :-)
<noteventime> Java-like-OO architecture can be kinda fun
<flux> but how long does it take to learn ocaml in a way that you can produce useful software, and read code from others?
<ita> noteventime: there is worse, working in c++ for example
<noteventime> hehe, C++ is more fun than Java though
<flux> let's say for a guy with solid java background..
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<twobitsprite> flux: can't be too long, esp. if you exclude camlp4...
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<noteventime> Although it rots your brain faster too
<Smerdyakov> flux, "solid Java background" doesn't mean anything to me.
<flux> I wonder if it'd be more or less if there was a c++-background
<ita> being productive in a language is something, creating apps that make money for clients is another one (yes, market matters)
<Smerdyakov> flux, any _good_ programmer can learn any language quickly.
<twobitsprite> flux: I don't feel like it took me long at all to understand the nature of the language
<ita> Smerdyakov: learning the tools is more difficult than it seems
<flux> smerdyakov, yes, but I think one sign of a good programmer is that he already knows many languages
<Smerdyakov> ita, maybe for crappy Java world.
<mbishop> a really good programmer would only need to see BNF for the syntax to learn the language...too bad I'm not a really good programmer :(
<Smerdyakov> ita, ML tools are simple.
<noteventime> Smerdyakov: Maybe that's true, but learning a methodology can take longer
<flux> I suppose if you strip the standard library from java, there isn't much there
<ita> Smerdyakov: ml tools are stupid : no shared library, no code completion, stupid compiler (at least it is fast)
<flux> of course, ocaml is simple if you think it that way
<Smerdyakov> ita, SML is better, obviously. :-)
<flux> +too
<noteventime> Most Java programmers are imperative-OO, learning more FP like programming can probably take some time
<ita> though the .net compiler is faster
<ita> Smerdyakov: sml ? what a joke
<mbishop> I smell a TROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLL
<ita> sml does not even have preprocessors
<Smerdyakov> ita, most of us couldn't care less about preprocessors.
<ita> mbishop: what is the oreilly thing once again ?
<noteventime> ita: That's something good, isn't it?
<ita> Smerdyakov: and shared libraries too ?
<Smerdyakov> ita, and you certainly couldn't argue that SML doesn't have one of the best optimizing compilers around.
<ita> noteventime: yes - and useful
<mbishop> mlton is crazy
<Smerdyakov> ita, I don't know, but you can use shared C libraries.
<mbishop> almost as crazy as stalin
<ita> who cares if the compilers cannot load shlibs
<noteventime> ita: Preprocessors are shit, macros are good
<Smerdyakov> ita, again, just never ends up mattering for me. To each his own.
<ita> mbishop: 19:26 < mbishop> O'Reilly called ocaml "irrelevant"
<ita> Smerdyakov: exactly
<twobitsprite> not being able to load dynamically does kinda bother me... but only in principle... in reality I never find myself needing it
<ita> noteventime: camlp4 teh sucks ? :-)
<mbishop> ita: indeed, oddly, they didn't even include SML, or Erlang, or a number of other languages
<flux> noteventime, I don't think macros for statically typed languages without a preprocessor is still a research topic..
<mbishop> not even "irrelevent"...just not there
<flux> s/don't //
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<noteventime> ita: Never used it, still new to OCaml
<ita> (ocaml+twt rulez)
<ita> noteventime: you do not know what you miss
<noteventime> Going to learn it as soon as I know the "core" language
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<noteventime> I still have to get used to some of the functional stuff too
<noteventime> That's what I'm really interested in at the moment
<flux> campl4 has been used for some great stuff, and fortunately you can take advantage of them without knowing it really, in the form of using other people's libraries
<noteventime> flux: Bleeding edge is what interests me ;-)
<mbishop> What do people mean when they say ocaml can't use shared libraries anyway?
<Smerdyakov> ita, I can't use monster.fr effectively. Could you please quote me average salary of J2EE expert, or whatever class of people you are thinking about in saying that J2EE makes OCaml irrelevant in the world of employment?
<ita> 21:41 < Smerdyakov> Who cares about market shares, is my question. <- tell that to your company :-)
<Smerdyakov> ita, (I can't use it effectively because I don't read French.)
<flux> ocaml can use shared c libraries, but it doesn't have shared ocaml libraries
<noteventime> Can you access OCaml code compiled to bytecode from native code?
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<flux> noteventime, no
<noteventime> ok
<ita> Smerdyakov: i have given to you the example of my engineering school, i think it is enough - i am another example too (and i wish i could use ocaml @work, but for now it is in my pet project)
<noteventime> That would be kinda neat
<flux> noteventime, I agree
<noteventime> ita: Aren't there any OCaml implementations for the JVM?
<flux> isn't the memory layout of records and stuff the same in byte and natively compiled binaries?
<noteventime> Don't ask me, I'm new :-)
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<Smerdyakov> ita, your examples don't convince me. My contention is that the people using OCaml at Jane Street make 5 to 10x as much money as almost anyone in your category, but I can't defend that without data.
<flux> if so, it should be possible to call byte code from native code and vice versa
<noteventime> I'm from C++, the language where nothing works
<ita> Smerdyakov: for one company unique in the world, great
<mbishop> I found http://alan.petitepomme.net/cwn/2004.05.18.html#10 this relating to why ocaml doesn't do shared libraries
<Smerdyakov> ita, hey, if you aren't good enough to get hired there, that's not my problem. ;-P
<ita> Smerdyakov: how many company have you seen once again ?
<ita> ibm ? hp ? cap gemini ?
<flux> I must say I agree with the viewpoint that one company can't possibly hire all people interested in ocaml.. ;)
<flux> (even if they were proficient)
<esdee> Smerdyakov: if it helps, J2EE guys get 60-80k CAD in Toronto
<noteventime> OT: Has anyone tried Scala, Nice, Oberon or nemerle?
<Smerdyakov> esdee, might be OK for people without graduate degrees, but seems pretty lame otherwise.
<mbishop> noteventime: Scala looks neat, if you're forced to use java anyway, Oberon is interesting, but not very useable today, I don't think (could be wrong)
<esdee> Jane Street pays $600k/year?
<noteventime> mbishop: That's kinda what I figures this far too :-)
<noteventime> figured*
<flux> an uk website says a j2ee job in UK pays about 50 kGBP a year, which makes about 100 kUSD a year
<Smerdyakov> esdee, yeah, I think so, for people who've been there a few years.
<Smerdyakov> esdee, the stand-outs are making 7-figure salaries.
<flux> average on application development it 42 kGBP
<Smerdyakov> esdee, they must be, since they're providing the capital the company invests... ;)
<mbishop> Damn, that's...a lot of money heh
<Smerdyakov> Yup. Nothing else in the world compares to the financial industry for compensation for technical jobs. Period.
<ita> Smerdyakov: okay, maybe i should send a resume :-)
<noteventime> I'd rather have a crappy pay and an interesting job :-)
<Smerdyakov> noteventime, if you think it's not interesting, you must be in la-la land.
<flux> noteventime, how about an interesting job and a good pay?-)
<noteventime> flux: If they exist, sure
<noteventime> Smerdyakov: I'm not interested in working as a programmer/software engineer
<Smerdyakov> noteventime, my title is Quantitative Researcher.
<noteventime> Which means?
<Smerdyakov> noteventime, which means writing code to support effective trading, including mathematical modeling.
<noteventime> (I wasn't talking about your job)
<ita> search for quantities missing from the accounts :-)
<noteventime> Sounds ok, but not really whar I'm interested in Smerdyakov
<Smerdyakov> noteventime, it's not my dream subject, either, but I'd rather save money to the point where I can do whatever I want, rather than settle for "a job" that's epsilon better.
<noteventime> :-)
<noteventime> Hehe, my "dream" would be doing research in theoretical computer science or Pure mathematics
<Smerdyakov> That's pretty much what quants do.
<noteventime> Then I must have misinterpreted your answer
<noteventime> :-)
<noteventime> Anyway, nemerle reminds me of OCaml
<noteventime> flux: Nermerle seems to be a statically typed programing language with macros
<mbishop> Isn't Nermerle for .Net?
<noteventime> yes
<noteventime> I'm afraid so
<noteventime> Still, means I could use it in school
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<noteventime> Could be a nice language for scripting though
<noteventime> Mono is pretty easy to embedd
<ita> mono needs more memory than your grandmas
<noteventime> less than the JVM though
<ita> noteventime: the jvm does not need two times the memory everytime a process is launched :-)
<noteventime> And it's more memory efficient than SBCL :-)
<ita> noteventime: shootout does not mean anything
<ita> look at beagle running on linux
<ita> so pitiful everybody disable it
<noteventime> I havn't seen the same application run in Java, so I can't say anything
<noteventime> about beagle
<noteventime> MonoDevelop seems a lot more efficient than Eclipse, but someone'd have to port both of them to make a fair comparison
<ita> mono is also full of microsoft patents
<ita> for 20 years it is better not to use it
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<lde> ita: hm?
<noteventime> ita: It's open source though, so it can be developed, and I'm only interested in the VM
<noteventime> The VM itself isn't a MS patent
<noteventime> Just some of the .net technology
<ita> it contains miscrosoft intellectual property, better not touching it
<noteventime> -_-
* pango uses beagle nonetheless :)
<noteventime> Damn! I didn't know Clean was so fast
<lde> microsoft has patents for everything related to computers according to microsoft
<noteventime> They have even patents in the Linux kernel, or so they like to say :-P
<noteventime> They're usually very unclear about what is patented X-D
<noteventime> "Err, it's something around there" * Points at config.h *
<ita> 65 patents for the apps
<ita> > mono <
<noteventime> As I said, I don't really care if MS has patents in Mono, they'll work around it if they need too
<ita> noteventime: sure, if they manage to get around the lawsuits too
<esdee> ita: just because you don't mind letting MS decide what software you will use, doesn't mean everyone else is going to let them too
<noteventime> ita: Mono is a novel project
<ita> noteventime: as if Sun Microsystems never had lawsuits with microsoft ?
<noteventime> So MS can't touch the mono project, only other people using it
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<ita> esdee: ridiculous
<noteventime> :-)
<noteventime> ita: You remember the Novell - MS deal?
<ita> sun microsystem managed to prevent microsoft from distributing the jvm - same thing can happen with mono
<noteventime> Not really
<noteventime> Mono is "owned" by Novell
<noteventime> Novell and MS have a deal
<ita> noteventime: sure, you know .net so well ?
<noteventime> I don't know .net at all
<ita> i'd rather trust common sense than over-optimistic opinions from people who only know mono
<noteventime> I don't know mono either
<ita> fact: mono is a cheval de troie
<noteventime> Whatever you say
<ita> noteventime: :-)
<esdee> its not "common" sense if its only a small group of MS shills sharing that sense
<ita> esdee: there is much more to lose than to gain
<ita> what if this time there is .net code copied to mono ? like the linux code copied into openbsd
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<noteventime> ita: ?
<esdee> then MS can file a C&D and novell will have to remove it from mono, big deal
<noteventime> MS can't C&D Novell
<noteventime> It would break their contract
<esdee> their contract is for patents, not copyright
<noteventime> Aren't we talking about patents?
<noteventime> Ohh, sorry
<noteventime> Missed :-)
<noteventime> Was still in the old discussio
<ita> intellectual property
<ita> better going the straight ocaml way
<lde> 'intellectual property'?
<esdee> there is no "intellectual property". Patents and copyright are two completely seperate and unrelated concepts
<noteventime> The good thing I can see about Mono/JVM is that there are several languages available for them
<Smerdyakov> esdee, if "intellectual property" is defined as the union of different kinds of laws, why does that make it nonexistent?
<noteventime> With OCaml, you're stuck to OCaml
<esdee> because its only defined as that by companies trying to confuse the issue
<ita> esdee: sure, lets go to the details, there are patents in every country and different laws too
<esdee> if I define "fooble crime" as "rape, murder and jaywalking", that doesn't make it so
<ita> esdee: bah, come back to discuss this after a few courses in law :-)
<Smerdyakov> esdee, what does it mean for any group classification to "be so"?
<lde> how many of them did you have, ita?
<esdee> for it to be a meaningful term. Anyone can make up a word, but that doesn't mean the rest of the world has to accept that new word
<ita> lde: in french, lots (+100 hours)
<esdee> ita: if you don't understand that copyright and patents aren't the same, then there's not much to discuss is there?
<ita> esdee: why are you telling me i do not understand the difference ?
<lde> ita: that's not so much
<lde> ita: was it only copyright law?
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<ita> lde: no
<esdee> ita: because you spout MS patent FUD and talk about the possibilty of mono copying .net code somehow as if its the same thing
<Smerdyakov> esdee, by your logic, it would be impossible ever to invent new terminology, because, at the start, only one person would have the right meaning in mind.
<esdee> ocaml could contain .net code just as easily as mono can
<esdee> I didn't say people can't accept that new term, just that they don't have to
<ita> esdee: it is reasonable to be more careful about wine and mono who actually copy the design of an existing proprietary product, than the ocaml compiler, who is innovative is many aspects
<ita> which
<lde> Smerdyakov: the term "intellectual property" is misleading, biased, and useful only in FUD
<Smerdyakov> lde, if the user and the listener understand what it really means, what's wrong with using it?
<ita> lde: that's a pretty broad statement
<lde> and meaningless
<lde> ita: Yes, it is.
<ita> lde: if you do not understand the words, thats even worse .. are you willing to use mono without even wanting to know what the problems could be ?
<ita> :-)
<lde> that was an insult
<lde> you are not only uninformed, but also rude
<esdee> ita: any problems with mono are mono's problems, not user's problems. Yes, lots of people are willing to use it. If you are afraid of MS patents, you pretty much have to stop using software period
<ita> lde: if i say you only understand the code so you should go back to it it might, but what i said previously was not
<Smerdyakov> Let's all just settle down and agree that JVM and .NET VM both suck because they hard-code particular OO idioms. :D
<ita> esdee: not stopping to use software, but take risks that are worth it ? :-)
<ita> Smerdyakov: agreed
<esdee> its not taking a risk to use it, that's the point
<lde> Smerdyakov: CLR is nice
<Smerdyakov> lde, no. It hard-codes particular OO idioms.
<ita> esdee: it is because there are intellectual property claims, and copied code risks (patents and copyright)
<esdee> Smerdyakov: like what? I haven't used it, but F# and nermerle aren't OO
<lde> Smerdyakov: I don't care.
<Smerdyakov> esdee, I can tell you haven't used F#, which has extensive OO features.
<ita> F# is really OO
<lde> OO is useful
<Smerdyakov> esdee, the .NET VM format is designed to represent C# programs. Everything else has to look like C# to work.
<esdee> anyone could have patents covering any software you use, and any software you use could contain copyright violations. Neither of these are particular to mono, and neither of them are relevant to the users, just the authors
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<esdee> I thought F# was supposed to be ocaml on .net?
<lde> it's almost-ocaml
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<lde> and ocaml supports OO
<ita> esdee: under us law, users of stuff derived from copyright infringement can be sued as well
<Smerdyakov> The key feature of F# is interoperation with the traditional .NET platform.
<esdee> which law is that?
<ita> and a few other countries as well
<Smerdyakov> It has a slew of features for using and defining .NET classes.
<ita> esdee: do i need to make you a us law course ?
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<esdee> noteventime, you need to cite the actual law if you are going to make a claim like that
<ita> esdee: look at the sco vs autozone case, there are many others as well
<esdee> grr
<mattam> It takes away a few features of OCaml like poly variants doesn't it ?
<esdee> that was for ita obviously, not noteventime
<Smerdyakov> mattam, it's a completely different language, just _inspired_ by OCaml. That is probably one difference.
<lde> mattam: yes, it does
<mattam> And more importantly, the module system
<esdee> an unresolved lawsuit isn't a law ita
<lde> Smerdyakov: a *completely different* language?
<mattam> Yes, I know it's a common misconception.
<mbishop> OCamIL seems more promising to get ocaml on .Net
<Smerdyakov> lde, meaning it doesn't make sense to describe F# as "OCaml plus this modification," because the list of modifications is so long.
<esdee> I would assume the confusion comes from the F# people saying stuff like "ocaml compatability is a key goal"
<mbishop> well
<Smerdyakov> esdee, it is compatible with the most well-known OCaml features, but the OCaml language today contains much more cruft than that.
<lde> Smerdyakov: you can describe it as "ocaml minus few features plus few modifications"
<mbishop> they do have mllib, which tries to implement most of ocaml
<Smerdyakov> lde, more like "minus many features and plus many modifications."
<lde> Smerdyakov: ok :-)
<lde> fsvo 'many'
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<noteventime> Saying .net sucks because if hardcoded OO is like saying OCaml sucks because of hardcoded first class functions
<noteventime> Sorry for discussion necrophilia :-P
<Smerdyakov> No. OCaml is a high-level language. .NET bytecode is much lower level.
<esdee> ita: nowhere in there does it say anything about users being liable
<ita> esdee: if a pirated software is given to someone in the us, the copyright owner may see both the redistributor, and the someone who use the program
<Smerdyakov> I don't want to deal with OO, so any level in the interpretation hierarchy that forces it is bad.
<noteventime> Well, it doesn't force you to use it
<noteventime> It just uses it internaly
<esdee> ita: anyone can sue anyone. That doesn't mean they can win
<Smerdyakov> noteventime, .NET bytecode forces you to use it.
<noteventime> Smerdyakov: In what way?
<Smerdyakov> noteventime, you can't have functions. They must live inside classes.
<ita> esdee: sure, but it is microsoft you know .. they have lawyers
<esdee> copyright doesn't protect use at all. So if the person isn't copying, distributing, publicly displaying, etc then they are fine
<Smerdyakov> noteventime, you can't have records, you can only have classes and ignore their functionality that isn't part of the record ADT.
<mrvn> So you make one big class MAIN and put everything in there.
<ita> esdee: and besides, a lot of money
<noteventime> Smerdyakov: There are a lot of .net languages that don't need that
<Smerdyakov> noteventime, I'm talking about bytecode, not any high-level language.
<esdee> again ita: if you want to live your life as dictated by MS, feel free. But you don't need to spout FUD to try to convince everyone else to do the same
<ita> esdee: in the mono case it is redistributed and all the other things
<noteventime> Smerdyakov: Who programs in .net bytecode?
<ita> esdee: stop living in denial there is no use
<Smerdyakov> noteventime, I do compiler research for a living. I care about these things.
<noteventime> Ahh
<mrvn> noteventime: the free mono compiler
<ita> esdee: it reminds me all the p2p people who share music and find whatever idea to say it is rightful to do so
<noteventime> Smerdyakov: Well, I'm seeing it from a language user perspective
<postalchris> ita, esdee: maybe you could take your pissing match off-channel?
<esdee> yet again ita: you live your life however you want. Leave everyone else's up to them
<ita> postalchris: :-)
<ita> esdee: stop living in denial dude
<noteventime> Stop repeating your arguments esdee and ita
<noteventime> ;-)
<ita> noteventime: i did not, i swear ! :-)
<noteventime> You did, thrice at least
<noteventime> Let play this like chess
<noteventime> If you do the same move three (or is it five) times in a row the game ends
<noteventime> ;-)
<ita> noteventime: well perhaps i did, but that was only because there were different people who did not follow the story
<noteventime> You've told esdee to "stop living in denial" twice the last 4 minutes
<noteventime> anyway
<noteventime> I don't feel like arguing
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<ita> noteventime: (where did i repeat twice in 4 minutes ?)
<noteventime> 23:01 "<ita> esdee: stop living in denial dude"
<noteventime> 23:00 "<ita> esdee: stop living in denial there is no use"
<ita> noteventime: right! i did not see that one
<ita> noteventime: gracias
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<noteventime> And esdee told you to live however you wanted a few times, just saying that's usually a hint that the discussion isn't getting anywhere ;-)
<lde> btw, .Net is Microsoft's implementation of various things
<noteventime> Clean looks pretty cool
<noteventime> And it compiles to native code
<lde> including CLR - the virtual machine
<ita> noteventime: well he said quite a lot of things that werent true or relevant
<ita> noteventime: and i posted us copyright info :-)
<noteventime> ita: I don't care, I can't honestly say I trust what you say any more then what esdee said, becuase I don't know the subject
<ita> noteventime: yes, suuuuure :-)
<noteventime> Just saying the discussion was getting kinda dumb ^^
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<noteventime> Nothing more
<elean> hi
<elean> i've got a problem running ocaml prog as a cgi script
<elean> can anyone give me a clue on that ?
<Smerdyakov> Your question is too vague and/or expansive.
<noteventime> never tried it, but if you don't ask you'll never know elean
<elean> ok the actual problem is i'm getting Premature end of script headers: test.ml
<Smerdyakov> elean, do you understand the CGI protocol?
<elean> am.. i'm more like going by intuition and information given on internet :]
<elean> i mean i'm going by an example of perl script to set up similar in ocaml
<Smerdyakov> Uh-huh. And your intuition has told you about the headers your program must output?
<hcarty> Is the OCaml 3.10 release final now? It looks like it is on the site, but I haven't seen anything on the list(s)
<elean> yeap the perl example gave me ;)
<Smerdyakov> elean, and did you read your web server's error log?
<elean> yes, this is the one: "premature.."
<Smerdyakov> elean, do you understand that "premature end of script headers" is the generic CGI error message from Apache, equivalent to "segmentation fault"?
<elean> i see..
<Smerdyakov> ("Equivalent" in terms of its meaning "something went wrong because you didn't obey the protocol.")
<Smerdyakov> It's impossible for us to help you if all you give is the most generic error message.
<elean> ok, ok.. sorry :]
<Smerdyakov> Try running the script manually and verifying that it is following the CGI protocol.
<noteventime> http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/research/mercury/ <- anyone seen this before?
<elean> yes it does
<elean> i tried
<Smerdyakov> noteventime, everyone has! :D
<elean> what i'm getting is:
<elean> Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-2
<elean> Hello World !
<elean> there is a line after content type of course
<Smerdyakov> elean, are you using Apache?
<elean> yes 2.2
<Smerdyakov> elean, have you checked the suexec log?
<noteventime> Clean really is... clean
<elean> sorry.. lame question, where can i found it ?
<Smerdyakov> elean, system-dependent
<elean> find*
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<elean> but it should be up if i'm running cgi scripts ?
<Smerdyakov> It's /var/log/apache2/suexec.log in Debian.
<Smerdyakov> It should be up if you're using suexec.
<Smerdyakov> This question seems to have reached the point where I doubt that it has anything to do with OCaml, so I won't be discussing it further here.
<Smerdyakov> Most likely a permissions problem somewhere.
<elean> on windows ?
<noteventime> elean: check your apache install directory
<elean> and similar perl script in the same directory is actually running ..
<noteventime> Looking for files in windows is horrible
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<elean> anyway just to be sure, if I set it up correctly it should work right ? ;)
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<hcarty> elean: I've toyed around with similarly simple OCaml CGI under a Debian + Apache system and it worked
<hcarty> So it should be possible
<elean> hcarty: ok thx
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<hcarty> elean: http://rafb.net/p/gQ5mNB77.html -- This works for me, as a (very) minimal script
<elean> thx man, thx a lot :) hope it works for me... :]
<hcarty> Good luck!
<elean> thanks :)
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<elean> ok.. the thing is I asked my friend to try it on debian (this ocaml as cgi script)
<elean> and it's not working
<elean> then he "wrapped" it as sh script (the output) and it's working then ...
<Smerdyakov> elean, are you running a .ml file directly, or running a compiled bytecode program, or running a compiled native program?
<pango> works for me, as long as it's handled by cgi-script handler
<pango> (I put it in /usr/lib/cgi-bin, too lazy to change my setup)
<elean> running it directly
<elean> k guys gotta go to sleep, thx for all your help :)
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