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<mbishop>
Snrrrub: the mailing list?
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<Snrrrub>
Good call. Also, I might as well just mention it here. I've just put up a tarball of OCamlPAM, a wrapper library for PAM. It's downloadable from http://sharvil.nanavati.net/ocamlpam/
<goalieca>
remind yourself never to mention anything remotely bad about haskell on reddit. :/
<jlouis>
goalieca: why?
<goalieca>
you get called stupid and downmodded
<goalieca>
mostly because any idiot can do category theory after reading a tutorial of course
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<mwc>
Haskell's a good language to know
<mwc>
Ocaml's just vastly more practical
<mbishop>
Too bad it's already getting a Ruby-like fanbase
<mwc>
heh
<mwc>
Haskell on Helicopters?
<mbishop>
Heh
<mwc>
Ocaml on... Camls?
<mwc>
*camels
<mbishop>
Ocaml on Ostriches?
<mwc>
Camel on Ostrich action. <paris_hilton>that's hot</paris_hilton>
<jlouis>
I generally like the ML's more because they are so damn effective when you have a problem you need solved
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<jlouis>
and you can basically do anything the Haskell guys can do, more or less if you bend the metal right
<goalieca>
haskell is a good language to know.. i like learning it
<goalieca>
i just don't like how any faults i have with the language are because i'm too stupid
<goalieca>
and not because the language has flaws
<jlouis>
I generally find Haskell to be more combinator-heavy than ML
<jlouis>
so there is a larger standard library to learn
<mwc>
I'm unimpressed with the implementations
<jlouis>
(And category theory is not entirely uninteresting, mind you, hehe)
<mwc>
GHC regularly breaks for me
<goalieca>
i never studied lambda calculus or anything. i studied computer engineering. should i have to know category theory to be able to use a language? no...
<mwc>
granted I use strange hardware like PowerPC running linux
<goalieca>
i run macosx too
<goalieca>
ghc is hard to get working
<mwc>
so I spend around half the year without a working GHC
<mwc>
Same reason I switched to git from darcs.
<mwc>
Git is better I now realized, but I couldn't use darcs on my linux powerbook
<mwc>
*now realize
<goalieca>
i'm still using svn. i've been meaning to use GIT
<mwc>
I almost want to release a Haskell project using git just to hear the wailing on #haskell :)
<jlouis>
It is mercurial here :)
<mwc>
that's the other thing about haskell, the community is deeply fanatical about haskell everything
<mwc>
they stick with darcs despite it being broken because it's written in Haskell
<mwc>
and they just learn how to avoid invoking the O(n!) behaviour
<mbishop>
sounds like C
<goalieca>
hmm. i also don't like how they show haskell can be fast pointing to debian language shootout. take a look at the nbody.hs
<goalieca>
basically it's hacked ot use pointers
<mbishop>
"such and such is broken." "That's ok, we'll just figure out complicated ways to get around it without actually fixing the problem!"
<jlouis>
goalieca: indeed. Many of the faster haskell programs exhibit that problem
<goalieca>
hmm. i asked for help to do things the right way. but then they always have me simulating c in haskell
<goalieca>
so it was actually harder
<goalieca>
then they tell me i'm stupid :D
<jlouis>
hehe
<goalieca>
anywho. the ocaml community seems large enough but is fairly quiet and well grounded. haskell community is really a few loud people
<jlouis>
When you are to write a program, about 95% of it will be "slow" -- but elegant. The last 5% will be optimized to hell, but the shootout problems completely defeats that purpose
<mbishop>
If only Smerdyakov cared enough about OCaml to go ranting about it like he does with SML, then we could be loud too!
<mbishop>
:)
<jlouis>
goalieca: Most of us are too busy doing research, hehe
<goalieca>
yeh. dons spends too much time talking about haskell and not enough doing haskell :P
<mwc>
I don't understand how dons manages to have posted about 30% of the programming.reddit's content at any given time
<jlouis>
mwc: He probably distills what others post in IRC channels
<mwc>
first off, it's not an attack on the cryptosystem, it's an attack on an implementation
<jlouis>
mwc: It is idiotic. It requires physical access
<mwc>
secondly, is reading the key an attack?
<jlouis>
And a can of liquid nitrogen
<mwc>
indeed
<mwc>
I know the point of encrypting a file system is specifically to protect against theft of the actual disks
<mwc>
but regardless of that
<mwc>
a
<mwc>
a cryptosystem is math.
<mwc>
this isn't math. this is an attack on a cryptosystem in the same way that sending a spy to sleep with the guy who copies the embassy's message is an attack on a cryptosystem
<jlouis>
Your important data should be on encrypted disks inside a safe with thermite charges on top of the disks
<Smerdyakov>
I have to disagree.
<Smerdyakov>
Cryptosystems are supposed to be immune to in-person tampering.
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<jlouis>
of course it can be exploited. If you get, say, the laptop and quickly put in into liquid nitrogen
<jlouis>
and in general, when speaking security, any attack is as good as another
<goalieca>
it should be much harder to crack the system than get the password/key through other means
<goalieca>
like kidnapping etc :P
<mwc>
right, or subverting the actual system
<mwc>
If during WW2, allied commando's broke into german naval headquarters and stole the enigma codes and algorithm, we wouldn't call that a break
<mwc>
What Turing did was an attack on a cryptosystem
<mwc>
this doesn't help you read the plaintext without the key
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<goalieca>
hmm.. well my paper got accepted. but i know i won't get funding to go to paris to present :(
<goalieca>
the whole reason to target the conference was to go to paris :P
<Smerdyakov>
Which conference?
<goalieca>
my school is in serious deficit right now
<goalieca>
isbi
<goalieca>
its an ieee one
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<ikatz>
ocamlyacc question:
<ikatz>
i have a lexer and a parser set up to read some input
<ikatz>
its all first-order logic sentences:
<ikatz>
MyPredicate1(x, y, z) | MyPredicate2(x, y, z)
<ikatz>
the sentences can have any number of predicates, separated by "|" and the predicates can have any number of terms, separated by ", "
<ikatz>
earlier today i thought i had the parser working and moved on to other things
<ikatz>
but on closer inspection, it is copying the first list item to all subsequent itmes
<ikatz>
so for my previous example:
<ikatz>
MyPredicate1(x, y, z) | MyPredicate2(x, y, z)
<ikatz>
that becomes
<ikatz>
oops let me back up
<ikatz>
say i have this:
<ikatz>
MyPredicate1(a, b, c) | MyPredicate2(x, y, z)
<ikatz>
it parss as
<ikatz>
MyPredicate1(a, b, c) | MyPredicate1(a, b, c)
<evn>
i cannot get godi to use my right library paths
<evn>
i am trying to install the sqlite binding
<evn>
and even if i add /opt/local to SEARCH_LIBS the Makefile still gets emitted with -lsqlite3 -L/usr/lib
<evn>
which is too old
<evn>
halp :(
<evn>
"GODI never uses the LD_LIBRARY_PATH feature" has foiled the obvious solution
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<coucou747>
omg... i've made something who've malloc 1.5 Go....
<coucou747>
I've only 1 go :(
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<flux>
evn, did you try configuring package conf-sqlite, which I suppose exists?
<evn>
i did actually, and eventually got it to work (had to rebuild the gobi-ocaml-sqlite afterwards). but i need to do the same thing for readline for gobi-omake and there is no conf-readline
<evn>
so i still need some other solution :/
<evn>
flux: but thanks for the suggestion
<flux>
evn, maybe this will help you if you don't already know them: on linux, -rpath /opt/local/lib is the switch you want to pass to the linker
<flux>
(for gcc it would be -Wl,-rpath,/opt/local/lib)
<evn>
this is osx :/
<evn>
either way, how do i manually add a linker switch
<evn>
to the godi build process
<flux>
it might be -R /opt/local/lib there
<evn>
that sounds right
<flux>
would it be easier to add that path to the global library search path? I hear solaris got that feature lately, maybe it has been in BSD for a while too
<evn>
i'm not sure how to do that
<evn>
$DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH seems to be ignored by GODI
<evn>
and LD_LIBRARY_PATH is in the doc as being definitely ignored
<flux>
I don't mean an environment variable but something more global; solaris has a file in /etc, linux has /etc/ld.so.conf
<evn>
hmmm
<flux>
although I think there should be some other solution too :)
<evn>
i know that ld_library_path is kinda shady but i wish that godi would just support it anyway :/
<evn>
i kinda think that the default paths for os x's ld are hardcoded in :/
<evn_>
i am on CVS ocaml, could that be a problem?
<evn_>
(i need the dynlib ability to use ocaml extensions in other languages on osx)
<flux>
no idea
<flux>
goalieca, however, there are many tools to remedy that problem
<flux>
goalieca, I use rlwrap, but there is ledit too
<goalieca>
ledit is emacs :(
<goalieca>
same with rlwrap
<evn_>
Patching failed due to modified patch file(s): patch-ab-cldbm
<evn_>
but i modified it on purpose :/
<evn_>
struggling with dbm now, gave up on omake
<evn_>
(ocsigen dependency)
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<evn_>
ah
<evn_>
foiled it by changing the sh1
<evn_>
sha1
<evn_>
the dbm binding fails because a patch to a comment doesn't match the current gdbm source :/
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<flux>
evn_, in general, how difficult has it been to set up godi in osx?
<evn_>
the initial setup was easy, even getting CVS ocaml to work
<evn_>
all my troubles are external dependency issues
<evn_>
The usual construction to show that a given "thing" is a proper class is to show that such a "thing" has at least as many elements as there are ordinal numbers.
<evn_>
oops
<evn_>
wrong channel
<evn_>
crap
<evn_>
i still can't install ocsigen
<evn_>
i get a version conflict with package godi-ocaml
<evn_>
but it doesnt tell me what packages are conflicting
<evn_>
i.e. requesting the wrong ocaml version
<evn_>
ugh camlduce doesn't install either
<evn_>
only the simplest libraries work
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<flux>
maybe ocisgen is not yet upgraded to 3.10.x?
<evn_>
one dependency reported it needed 3.10.0 and 20 others said 3.10.1
<evn_>
oh are you thinking ocsigen itself is the one without the updated version
<evn_>
that is likely
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<julm>
cl
<julm>
oops
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<ygrek>
hello. can someone point me a working example of simple project using ocamlbuild + extlib ?
<ygrek>
irony is I managed to compile it on windows but fail on debian
<ygrek>
with the same command (path to extlib adjusted)
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<coucou747>
salut all
<julm>
bonjour coucou747
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<ertai>
ygrek: Do you use the same version of ocamlbuild on windows and linux?
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<ikatz>
anyone have experience with ocamlyacc?
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<bluestorm>
ikatz: depends on how much you need
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<ikatz>
bluestorm: nothing too crazy... just a problem building lists
<ikatz>
say i have this:
<ikatz>
MyPredicate1(a, b, c) | MyPredicate2(x, y, z)
<ikatz>
first-order logic sentences that i want to parse
<ikatz>
so i have the lexer and the parser made and they seem to work
<ikatz>
but when i print the things back out i get
<ikatz>
MyPredicate1(a, b, c) | MyPredicate1(a, b, c)
<thelema>
ikatz: what's your rule for |?
<ikatz>
'|' { PIPE }
<ikatz>
and then in the parser its:
<ikatz>
sentence:
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<ikatz>
| literal { $1 :: [] }
<ikatz>
| literal PIPE sentence { $1 :: $3 }
<ikatz>
does that look right for building lists using the parser?
<thelema>
I don't see a problem there...
<ikatz>
i'm going to double check my print function
<thelema>
for literal?
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<ikatz>
literal:
<ikatz>
| NOT predicate { Negative ($2) }
<ikatz>
| predicate { Positive ($1) }
<thelema>
double-check your printer
<ikatz>
but if it looks basically ok to you, i'm probably screwing something else up. i just needed a sanity check.
<ikatz>
yeah, i'll check that now
<ikatz>
yep that was it... amazing how much clearer it looks today than yesterday at 2am :)
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<eelte>
bye
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<ygrek>
ertai, I think yes, though I am not fully sure - can't check right now
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<flux>
ocsigen apparently has no javascript interoperability at all,
<flux>
atleast so that google would know about it
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<evn>
flux: no... apparently not
<flux>
has anyone used ocsigen for something interesting?
<flux>
even for toys?-)
<evn>
it was used to make the ocsigen website...
<evn>
it doesnt look very practical tome
<evn>
the webserver might be pretty nice though
<flux>
"We are also working on two major enhancement of the system:one concerns the automatic generation of (well typed) Javascriptcode to be executed on the browser [22]. This extension will al.."
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<flux>
put ocsigen, add javascript generation, finish relational and package them all together, and you have a killer app ;)
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<flux>
I wonder if you could convert ocaml into javascript with camlp4
<flux>
like, don't go through the whole compilation process; rather, translate from language to language
<flux>
and if the ocaml code would also be compiled, the compiler would give static typing guarantees
<ikatz>
does camlp4 actually do translation between languages?
<ikatz>
as a follow-up, can you generate c code from ocaml code?
<flux>
not by itself, of course there would be code to be written
<thelema>
ikatz: it can do pretty arbitrary modifications to text
<flux>
yes. there was actually a presentation on that exact matter.
<ikatz>
have a link?
<ikatz>
or is that the ocsigen thing you were talking about
<flux>
no
<flux>
can't find it now
<flux>
someone here surely remembers the presentation..
<flux>
the idea was to parse makefiles and produce c-files which, when compiled, would do the make
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<flux>
now, if we had a factoid-storing bot here, important nuggets of information such as this wouldn't get lost ;)
<ikatz>
factoids;;
<ikatz>
let factoids = ref [];;
<ikatz>
damn... ocaml interpreter bot is missing too
<bluestorm>
ikatz: you can see camlp4 as a big framework intended at manipulating pieces of Abstact Syntax Tree
<bluestorm>
a generic AST layer is supported, but you have a sophisticated OCaml AST too
<bluestorm>
everything you want to do involving syntaxic manipulation of ocaml code (eg. creating ASTs when parsing slightly modified ocaml sources, that is, syntax extensions) is possible
<bluestorm>
you theorically could use camlp4 to create a OCaml -> C translator
<bluestorm>
but 1) the C logic isn't handled by camlp4 itself, you have to do it
<bluestorm>
2) it would be only at the syntax level : you wouldn't have the usual semantic informations (typing, etc.)
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<ikatz>
i reject that theory on the grounds that i'm lazy
<bluestorm>
so in practice, camlp4 would not be the right tool for that
<ikatz>
:)
<bluestorm>
(as it is only a syntax-manipulation program)
<ikatz>
thats cool
<bluestorm>
ikatz: if you want to do ocaml -> another language translation, a maybe more powerful approach would to use an internal representation of the ocaml compiler tools
<bluestorm>
there is one that look like (untype) lisp very much, for example
<ikatz>
interesting
<bluestorm>
(ocamlc -drawlambda foo.ml)
<ikatz>
i guess i could also check out the capabilities of interfacing ocaml and c libraries
<bluestorm>
(but on that topic i can't help you, i don't know ocaml internals at all)
<flux>
bluestorm, but for ocaml->javascript it should be more doable
<flux>
bluestorm, because usually you can just drop typing information and things just work..
<flux>
tco might be tricky..
<flux>
but for ajax purposes it wouldn't IMO need to be perfect; it would be mostly used as a glue
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<bluestorm>
flux: i think there are representation more adapted than the AST for that purpose
<bluestorm>
iirc, most Haskell compilers have an simplified internal langage, named "Core", that is suited to that kind of things
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<_W_>
this is off topic, but I figure people here are likely to know. Are there any decent protocol definition languages? Something that can be used to define a protocol in a machine-readable format to be compiled into APIs in multiple programming languages?
<_W_>
(if you know of a better place to dig, or people to ask, that's appreciated as well)
<love-pingoo>
I've heard several researchers present this as a long-term goal but I don't know about any established usable tool for that :\
<_W_>
got any names?
<_W_>
I mean I could start writing my own stuff, but it'd likely be far from generic enough, and full off kludges