rwmjones changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | Grab Ocaml 3.10.2 from http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/release.html (featuring new camlp4 and more!)
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<mbishop> someone fixed ocaml.janestcapital.com I see
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<OatTop> is there a syntax for splittin a string over multiple lines? I could use ^ but that is always performed at runtime
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<thelema> Oatschool: yes, \<enter> allows a string to split over multiple lines
<thelema> doh, left.
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<delamarche> so I was reading the programmer's stone
<delamarche> and i came across this, and had one of those 'wtf' moments
<delamarche> I quote:
<delamarche> "OCaml is popular today, but to me (and I’m not an expert) it seemed too Java-ish."
<delamarche> !
<delamarche> Java-ish? Gwa? Why? The only thing I can think of that the two have in common is that they have static typing.
<delamarche> Strange.
<delamarche> Anyhow, that's my story for the day. Happy ocamling.
<letrec> Maybe the bytecode/VM stuff sounds similar as well. I don't know Java too much but can one use HOF in Java?
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<RobertFischer> [08:59] letrec: Maybe the bytecode/VM stuff sounds similar as well. I don't know Java too much but can one use HOF in Java?
<RobertFischer> letrec: Not directly, and not yet. But efforts have been made to provide that style of behavior.
<delamarche> I've used those functor libraries in apache
<delamarche> Jeez, not in apache.
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<delamarche> In the the jakarta commons library. Anyhow, i find that kinda thing is way too verbose to make it worth it in java. Same deal in C++.
<delamarche> It's just painful.
<delamarche> IMO
<delamarche> I used the boost functional libraries pretty heavily for a little while
<RobertFischer> Anytime you're dealing with HOF, you're really dealing with anonymous inner classes.
<RobertFischer> Interface implementations.
<RobertFischer> That kinda jazz.
<RobertFischer> There's just no other way to pass around code.
<delamarche> Or wacked out things like inheriting from a class called ThreeArgFunction
<delamarche> Which is essentially what you just said.
<delamarche> Heh
<delamarche> Even in python... I'm pretty much writing exclusively python these days, and while it easy really easy to throw functions around, it's not nearly as easy to curry
<delamarche> which really takes a lot of the fun out of it for me.
<ziph> Doesn't currying take out a lot of the fun's?
<RobertFischer> Can you tell I'm an Ocamler in Java land?
<delamarche> hahahaha ziph that was great
<delamarche> Hrm, that may not have been a pub, but it certainly seemed like it was :D
<delamarche> RobertFischer: I've written libraries very similar to that myself :D Nice!
<RobertFischer> Well, now they're free for the taking.
<delamarche> Excellent!
<RobertFischer> All to invent a reliable lazy map: http://code.google.com/p/jconch/wiki/CacheMapExamples
<delamarche> I've bookmarked that repository in the event that I ever find myself back in javaland
<RobertFischer> Heheh. Vote it up on Reddit: http://reddit.com/search?q=jconch
<ziph> Wouldn't an Ocaml person in Javaland head towards Scala?
<delamarche> RobertFischer: I was working on a research project where I was writing Java middleware to allow people to compose programs in terms of Berkeley's 'dwarves'
<delamarche> and have the middleware try to transparently parallelize it
<delamarche> It was fun
<delamarche> I really gotta post that
<RobertFischer> Go for it.
<delamarche> I had one for dynamic programming (tricky) and another for map-reduce (which was easy)
<RobertFischer> I do Java to pay the bills.
<delamarche> I hear ya there
<RobertFischer> Most people are just barely able to handle bringing Groovy in, much less Scala.
<ziph> RobertFischer: Become the lead programmer. ;)
<delamarche> Great project name too, btw.
<RobertFischer> ziph: I'd rather start my own business. :)
<Smerdyakov> RobertFischer, then what's stopping you? :)
<ziph> RobertFischer: Even better, if you can handle it. :)
<RobertFischer> delamarche: What's funny is that I came up with "JConch" first, and it was a couple of weeks later, when my wife read "Lord of the Flies", that I realized how appropriate it was.
<ziph> Smerdyakov: IRC. ;)
<RobertFischer> ziph: +1
<delamarche> RobertFischer: That's a sign that a name was meant to be :)
<ziph> While I remember it, has anyone seen a good computer based code review tool? Something that lets you mark reviewed code, put comments on it and merge reviews to new revisions via diff?
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<delamarche> Uh, i was looking at these two not long ago:
<delamarche> But when I worked at, um, bigger companies, usually they'd written their own wrappers around a commercial repository like perforce to handle that stuff
<ziph> Yeah, that bit doesn't worry me, I just want something to do the actual line by line file review.
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<delamarche> Oh, so you're just looking for a good way to visualize diffs?
<delamarche> With some annotation
<delamarche> hrm
<ziph> No, a good way to annotate files.
<delamarche> Yeah gotcha.
<ziph> Annotate lines and methods (and entire files) as reviewed, and attach comments and let the comments move around after changes are made.
<delamarche> Sorry dude, you've got me stumped there.
<ziph> I'll have a look at reviewboard, I don't remember seeing it before.
<ziph> I'm coming fairly close to writing one myself with a gui app. ;)
<delamarche> That would probably scratch a really big itch, if it was easy to get up and running.
<ziph> Do you think so? I considered doing it as a business but wasn't sure there'd be a market.
<delamarche> Yeah, I dunno about marketing it. If I wanted to make money off of it, I'd probably run it as a web app and let people subscribe? But I think it would be tough. That would likely be more along the lines of an open-source thing, IMO
<delamarche> You'd have fame before fortune.
<ziph> :)
<delamarche> OK, sprint time. I'm gonna drop out for a while, need minimal distraction, and you are all stimulating conversationalists.
<delamarche> So I shall return :)
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<RobertFischer> Smerdyakov: Actually, I'm shifting to part-time at my current gig so I can get some open source done, and then I'm going to release a couple of web-apps.
<RobertFischer> Smerdyakov: I don't expect any of that to make me gobs of cash.
<RobertFischer> ziph: Check out the Atlassian set of tools. They're solid.
<RobertFischer> And they've got some kind of nifty review tool with a cutesy name that I can't remember.
<ziph> Have they changes their name at some point? The site looks familiar.
<evn_> ziph: there is a thing like that
<evn_> let me try to dig it up
<ziph> Most of the ones I've looked at are built around the process rather than concentrating on making the core review bit nice to use.
<ziph> Thanks evn_, I was looking for a screenshot of that. :)
<evn_> i havent used it but it looked acceptable
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<RobertFischer> ziph: Atlassian has always been Atlassian. Good company, with some really good people at it.
<ziph> RobertFischer: I think I've talked myself into writing one myself though. :(
<ziph> Has anyone been brave enough to write a C++ parser in Ocaml? ;)
<RobertFischer> I think you're looking for Crucible: http://www.atlassian.com/software/crucible/
<ziph> Yup, that's the one I've seen.
<RobertFischer> C++ isn't parseable. Jump on my blog, find a post by Brian Hurt, and ask him why not.
<RobertFischer> :)
<ziph> Not passable or parseable. Hmm.
<Smerdyakov> ziph, there's some OCaml wrapper on top of Oink, which does C++ parsing and simplification.
<RobertFischer> It's got ambiguous syntax around templates.
<RobertFischer> Trying to remember the specific example.
<RobertFischer> Something like "a < b, c > d".
<Smerdyakov> RobertFischer, largely irrelevant in practice, and generally unhelpful to mention. :P
<ziph> I'd just need to be able to build up an index to declarations and find the type of an expression.
<RobertFischer> Nice!
<ziph> That does look nice, it'd make a nice base for a lint tool tuned to specific sets of rules defined by various C++ libraries and frameworks.
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* RobertFischer is getting antsy to get out of the office and work on CloudProxy agani.
<ziph> What's that?
<RobertFischer> It's the JoCaml-based open source project I'm working on.
<RobertFischer> Here's the story.
<RobertFischer> I was working on a Rails app (I get around), but since Rails is a single-threaded monstosity, I ran 4 servers which were managed by a reverse proxy. So I set up my reverse proxy.
<RobertFischer> Things were great most of the time, but the app was still kinda slow.
<RobertFischer> So I spent some time optimizing the app, and it wasn't until I did production metrics that I realized one of the servers wasn't being used *at all*.
<RobertFischer> Turns out that I had my servers running on 3001, 3002, 3003, and 3004, but my reverse proxy was looking for servers on 3000, 3001, 3002, 3003.
<RobertFischer> This pissed me off.
<RobertFischer> Worse, when I went to try to set up this app on an entirely seperate physical box, I got into a bunch of maintenance pain.
<RobertFischer> So I'm solving that problem for the general case.
<ziph> With an intelligent-er proxy?
<RobertFischer> Yes.
<RobertFischer> With CloudProxy, you'll run a master. Then, to bring up a new server, you simply install the slave, tell it to take orders from the master at X, and let it go.
<RobertFischer> It will pull down the code you need to run the application and just run it from there.
<ziph> So the application needs to be packaged in an implementation language independent way?
<evn_> interesting
<evn_> how does jocaml get involved
<evn_> also have you looked at switchpipe or fuzed
<RobertFischer> The application gets packaged up in a generic interface. There's a little glue code which needs to be done to kick off the deploy which will be language-specific.
<RobertFischer> Or, rather, deployment nature specific.
<RobertFischer> I'm using JoCaml because this needs to be a highly concurrent system capable of scaling rapidly to its hardware.
<RobertFischer> Switchpipe is digging at a different problem space.
<evn_> seems pretty similar to me
<RobertFischer> A CloudProxy master handles only one single app.
<evn_> ok
<evn_> the master is like an LB then
<evn_> since it is a single entry point to the cluster
<RobertFischer> LB?
<evn_> load balancer?
<RobertFischer> Yes.
<RobertFischer> And fault handler.
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<evn_> round robin or truly load based
<RobertFischer> Take your pick.
<RobertFischer> Pluggable selection algorithm.
<RobertFischer> fuzed looks like a specific case of CloudProxy's general-case solution.
<RobertFischer> The intent, BTW, is to have something like Pound or (now that I've seen it) Switchpipe hanging out in front of CloudProxy.
<RobertFischer> To do the actual heavy lifting for the proxy work -- SSL, routing, etc.
<evn_> oh... hrm
<evn_> that stack is getting pretty deep
<evn_> i would be wary of deploying more than 2 layers of proxy
<evn_> front-facing (hardware) LB -> per-server proxy -> container
<evn_> do you have a mailing list or something for CloudProxy
<evn_> that i could lurk on
<RobertFischer> Not yet. I want to get some code.
<RobertFischer> I could set one up quick, though.
<evn_> or a blog where you make announcements
<RobertFischer> My blog is http://enfranchisedmind.com/blog
<RobertFischer> I'll post stuff out there.
<evn_> cool
<RobertFischer> And there's lots of programming language conversation, since I have one foot in the dynamic world (Groovy/Ruby) and one foot in the functional world (Ocaml).
<evn_> neat
<RobertFischer> I'm getting slashdotted right now.
<RobertFischer> :-P
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<RobertFischer> Didn't notice until just now.
<RobertFischer> Brian's Kid Sister Crypto apparently got popular.
<evn_> about what
<RobertFischer> (I just cranked up the VPS. Looks like things are good.)
<jonafan> i'm afraid i didn't understand that one
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<RobertFischer> jonafan: What don't you understand?
<jonafan> wasn't sure if it was a joke or not
<psnively> OCaml's pretty funny. :-D
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<RobertFischer> What's a joke?
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<RobertFischer> 897 views to Kid Sister Crypto in the last 3 hours.
<RobertFischer> That's a lot more load than my poor blog is used to.
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<evn> oh wordpress
<evn> is it cached
<evn> or is load load not really an issue
<evn> also... have ppl seen http://www.ex-nunc.org/wiki/
<RobertFischer> I just cranked up the caching.
<RobertFischer> It was cached for 10 seconds, but the load is causing it to take longer tha that to process. :-P
<RobertFischer> I haven't seen Ex-nunc, but it looks very promising.
<RobertFischer> It's sounding a lot like the framework I fantisize about when I'm doing Rails/Grails.
<evn> looks more practical than ocsigen
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<RobertFischer> Yeah, ocsigen is pretty unwieldly, at least from an outsider's perspective.
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<RobertFischer> Sucks that the documentation is so limited.
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<hcarty> Yoric[DT]: What are the proper steps to use your comprehensions extension in the toplevel? #load "camlp4of.cma";; then #require "comprehension";; then #load "pa_comprehension.cma";;
<hcarty> seems to get part of it
<hcarty> But the MoreArray and MoreList modules still seem to be missing
<hcarty> # [| (i,j) | i <- [|1 .. 5 |]; j <- [|1 .. 5|] |];; gives "Unbound value MoreArray.flatten"
<thelema> hcarty: where does MoreArray come from?
<hcarty> thelema: It is included in Yoric[DT]'s comprehension package
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<bluestorm> hcarty: you probably need to load the associated cmos too
<hcarty> None are installed... I'll have to dig in to this some more
<bluestorm> hm
<bluestorm> if you use ocamlbuild
<bluestorm> there is a runtime-intended "comprehension.cma"
<bluestorm> (the content of comprehension.mllib, wich includes MoreFoo)
<bluestorm> the ocamlfind META file knows that too
<hcarty> Yes, that is installed, and was loaded by #require "comprehension";;
<bluestorm> hm
<bluestorm> do #require load things ?
<hcarty> It will load a .cma if the META file mentions one
<hcarty> http://ocaml.pastewith.us/55 -- to avoid spamming
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<hcarty> I think comprehension.cma should include all of these modules (MoreFoo)
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<Yoric[DT]> Sorry, I've had no time to fix things.
<Yoric[DT]> iirc, the META file is broken
<Yoric[DT]> And I'm waaaaay too overworked to patch this up.
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<hcarty> Yoric[DT]: I completely understand. Do you have any pointers on where to start with fixing it? If not, I'll dig through it on my own as I have time
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* RobertFischer is trying to figure out if OSP would accept him as a mentor, even if he's not faculty at a college.
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<thelema> RobertFischer: what do you want to mentor?
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