<Gratz474>
i am not really a functional programmer hehe
<Gratz474>
i like the idea a bit but i love OO so much
* schme
is a bit of a dysfunctional programmer.
<schme>
Gratz474: ocaml has the OO ;)
<Gratz474>
oh yea i know
<Gratz474>
but most people i think who use ocaml or are funcitnal style
<schme>
I'd think so too.
* schme
has the love/hate relationship with OOP.
<Gratz474>
i use python alot
<Gratz474>
making everytihng so reusable is the greatest thing
<schme>
also I have a love/hate relationship with "high level" and GC
<schme>
python.. mostly just a hate relationship ;)
<Gratz474>
oh python come on
<Gratz474>
django?
<Gratz474>
I could never use anything else and I want too!
<schme>
No idea what django is.
<Gratz474>
a web framework
<schme>
ok.
<Gratz474>
I would love to find something that i could use and like but i just can't
<Gratz474>
and thats why I was asking herre
<schme>
I hear good things about seaside and/or lisp for web stuff.
<Gratz474>
sorry but i coould neve get used to the syntax
<schme>
Gratz474: I think you just need to try different ones out. Or write one yourself.
* Camarade_Tux
uses oo, sometimes
<Gratz474>
i have tried so many
<Gratz474>
python and django was thought out so well
<schme>
So why do you want somethnig else?
<Gratz474>
after the whole ruby on rails and stuff
<Gratz474>
it was competley thought out from ground up
* schme
is not a webcoder. can't give much good feedback here.
<Gratz474>
yea
<schme>
I don't understand why you want something else then.
<Gratz474>
well
<Gratz474>
just curious
<schme>
You could just write one yourself.
<Gratz474>
i use ocaml for things that are like resouce dependant
<Gratz474>
so work in python and use ocaml for things that take a long time in python
<schme>
I hear good things about erlyweb.
<schme>
not ocaml, but I guess it's functional.
<schme>
Gratz474: Seriously though. If you want a mvc style webframework in ocaml, and one that works just the way your brain works.. Just write one :)
<Gratz474>
hehee
<Gratz474>
well
<schme>
If the python guys can write one it can't be very hard ;)
<schme>
Gratz474: See it all depends on what you actually want. If your goal is to just make the sites your clients requests real fast, and you know django... well just use django. If you want a webframework that works in some special way.. either edit one so it works like you want or write a new one.
<Gratz474>
schme, only if you knew how fast you could do things in django ;)
<Gratz474>
yea
<schme>
Gratz474: I have no idea and no interest in doing things in django.
<Gratz474>
how much more productive do you guys think ocaml is then c++
<Gratz474>
im always like should i use c++ or should I use ocaml
<schme>
Right tool for the job, eh?
<Gratz474>
schme, i was kidding, but i said the same thing hehe
<schme>
Personally I'd never use C++ for anything.
<Gratz474>
most of the time its just doing a quick thing that would be resource intense in Python
<schme>
I guess also I'd never use python for anythig.
<Gratz474>
what scripting language would you use ?
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: the only advantage I see python has is ubiquity
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: depends on what platform I am on
<schme>
Gratz474: scripting language? I guess I write the occassional bash script? I generally don't use "scripting languages"
<schme>
I'm not even sure what the term means :)
<Gratz474>
python syntax is super clean, and i dont care about the lang as much as the libs it as, i know how that sounds
<schme>
It sounds like you've made a good choice.
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: you could take look at F#
<Gratz474>
looks kinda like java Associat0r hehe
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: ?
<schme>
Gratz474: Generally I stick with the assembly, forth, lisp, ocaml and prolog. So no need for python, eh?
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: F# looks like ocaml
<Gratz474>
i was kidding
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: and has some python bits like array slicing
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: and it has ndjango
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: also it has a indent syntax
<Gratz474>
all ndjango is, is the template syntax
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: what more do you want?
<Gratz474>
you never used django huh?
<Gratz474>
i mean i dont expect anything really
<Gratz474>
django template lib is a small part of django
<schme>
Gosh I am so happy I don't do webdevelopment. It seems a pain in the arse.
<Gratz474>
used to be for me too
<Gratz474>
until i found django :P
<Gratz474>
i know i am repping it too much but django's api was so well thoughtout and the re uable stuff is just plain nuts
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: it works with bistro and asp.mvc
<schme>
Gratz474: So basically django is perfect for you.. and still you want to use something else? I don't get it.
<Gratz474>
yea but its just the template syntax, thats the least used part pretty uch ;)
<Gratz474>
schme, oh no no but i like to find competitors ;)
<schme>
Gratz474: I'm sure it's all interesting for people interested in webdevelopment ;)
<Gratz474>
you dont like web dev?
<schme>
I find it incredibly boring.
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: I don't like webdev
<schme>
I'd rather have one of those whatchacall it... painful things.
<Gratz474>
so what kind of programming do you like to do ?
<Associat0r>
games, simulations
<schme>
Gratz474: I like the embedded madness, and a bit of the gamery too.
<schme>
anything remotely math related too ;)
<Gratz474>
hmm i see
<Gratz474>
I couldn't stand that stuff
<Gratz474>
although i do like some game stuff
<schme>
maybe that is why you can stand python ;)
<Gratz474>
but writing your own game is really just not all that possible
<flux>
a cgi/scgi-comptabile web framework would be interesting for ocaml
<flux>
apparently ocsigen still requires its own web server?
<Gratz474>
it does
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: why isn't it possible?
<schme>
Gratz474: "writing your own game is really just not all that possible" ?
<schme>
Gratz474: Soon you will tell me that writing your own OS is not all that possible ;)
<flux>
I wrote little something with netcgi2 & its scgi-support, turned out fine
<flux>
but it's very cgi-like ;-)
<Gratz474>
i mean it takes 50 men 4 years would take me a lifetime ;)
<schme>
That's crazy.
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: you are talking about hollywoodized content
<schme>
well maybe it does in python.
<schme>
HAH
<Gratz474>
i am
<Gratz474>
i mean if i wa going to make a game it would have to be good ;)
<Gratz474>
not like something from a basement ;)
<Associat0r>
ah yeah I forgot about ocsigen
<Gratz474>
flux, cgi like is =\
<Gratz474>
doens't it enforce functional?
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: so you think the current games are good?
<kaustuv>
python is still designed by the guy who despises functional programm{ing,ers}, right?
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: I haven't seen any good game in the past 10 years
<Gratz474>
does Guido not like functional stuff?
<Gratz474>
recursive functions are in Pytohn
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: and I know plenty of good games done by 1 person
<Gratz474>
Python
<Gratz474>
starcraft? hehe
<Gratz474>
warcraft 3 ?
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: 1000 recursion level deep
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: that's python
<kaustuv>
I seem to recall reading somewhere that he didn't want tail call elimination because "it would be too much work"
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: I don't see SC and WC3 as good games
<Gratz474>
Python is not for games exactly well the rendering part
<schme>
kaustuv: I seem to remember that.
<Gratz474>
Associat0r, then maybe you are just insane :P
<schme>
Not to mention the sad state of threads in python. and the not so bright GC ;)
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: they are nothing special
<Gratz474>
kaustuv, the guy works for google, he does what he thinks is best for the language
<schme>
Gratz474: I have syntax problems with python.. my problem is that you can't actually change the syntax ;)
<Gratz474>
Associat0r, come on man hehe
<Gratz474>
django is designed around having no syntax
<Gratz474>
sorry pyton
<Gratz474>
python
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: ever heard of frontier elite 2?
<kaustuv>
schme: Well, ocaml's threads are nothing to write home about either. And Python uses a reference counting allocator, which in my book is not a GC
<Gratz474>
its like blahblah.blah() thats it
<schme>
kaustuv: Well it pretends to be GC anyway :)
<Gratz474>
kaustuv, it is high level hehe
<schme>
Gratz474: that *is* syntax.
<Gratz474>
not much
<Gratz474>
just words
<Gratz474>
with .'s
<kaustuv>
you can write Perl in Latin and Klingon. Does not make it a good language.
<schme>
speaking of nothing. are there any CUDA bindings around for ocaml yet?
<Gratz474>
python has its use
<Associat0r>
kaustuv: I could get good performance out of F#, if only they added SIMD support soon
<Gratz474>
as does ocaml etc
<schme>
Gratz474: I am glad that I am not involved in anything where there is a use for python ;)
<Gratz474>
web man web hehe and ton s corp companies use it
<Gratz474>
google nasa government institutions
<schme>
That's silly. no companies use the web.
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: lots of people use cobol
<Gratz474>
they do
<schme>
oh yeah. cobol is where the money is at.
<Gratz474>
but its mostly legacy
<Gratz474>
java is where the money is at
<schme>
well to be honest programming is not where the money is ;)
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: lots of people used perl too
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: that doesn't say much about how good something is
<Gratz474>
I dont like perl
<Gratz474>
but there is much worse
<Associat0r>
schme: exactly what you said
<Gratz474>
i like minimal syntax one reason why I like ocaml
<Associat0r>
if you are in it for the money you should look elsewhere
<Gratz474>
schme, then you must not be finding work ;)
<Gratz474>
Associat0r, where are you located?
<Associat0r>
NL
<Gratz474>
NL?
<schme>
Gratz474: I have work. But I assure you that there are much more wellpaying things than java programming, or other programming.
<Gratz474>
in the usa programming is a very good paying position
<Associat0r>
netherlands
<Gratz474>
ah
<Gratz474>
schme, you can make over 120K usd being a programer
<Gratz474>
not just when starting out but after a few years you can make that
<schme>
Gratz474: Right. Compared to a good investment banker?
<kaustuv>
schme: the janestreet people are programmers
<Gratz474>
i mean i think of after 5 years of working making a 150k is not bad
<Associat0r>
this complex example runs even faster in F# than C++
<schme>
I have no idea what janestreet is.
<schme>
Gratz474: I have friends fresh out of university that make more than that.
<Gratz474>
where at?
<Gratz474>
over 150K /
<Gratz474>
?
<schme>
Gratz474: Oh here and there.
<Gratz474>
where are you located?
<schme>
Gratz474: But they are not doing programming work. Me I'm in sweden.
<Gratz474>
what i told you was common
<schme>
Yes.
<Gratz474>
for programmers
<Gratz474>
i guess man
<schme>
and I tell you it is common in other lines of work to make more money.
<Gratz474>
like what?
<Gratz474>
i am sure there is other stuff who can make more
<schme>
But I'm with Associat0r anyway. If you're just doing your work for money then probably you should be doing something else.
<schme>
Gratz474: How about surgeons? lawyers?
<Gratz474>
ok yea
<kaustuv>
arms smuggling, selling state secrets to foreign govts, drugs, plenty of careers with more money to be made
<Gratz474>
i mean i already invested alot of time into learning programming ;)
<Gratz474>
lawyers dont make all that much though, not all the time anyways
<schme>
That's great if you like programming.
<schme>
Well. programmers don't make all that much all the time either.
<Gratz474>
i do like it alot
<schme>
great man.
<Gratz474>
its very easy here to make 85K plus as a programmer
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<schme>
Gratz474: I left the programming business meself because it was boring me to death. all the java and C# and whatheck.
<Gratz474>
alot of my clients allow me to choose what to use
<Gratz474>
but i never get bored
<schme>
That's great man.
<Associat0r>
I'd rather sell shoes than have a 9-5 coding job
<Gratz474>
then why do you program? hehe
<schme>
for fun.
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: hobby
<schme>
that linus torvalds book. "Just for fun" pretty much nailed it.
<Gratz474>
i seee
<Gratz474>
well it does not bore me at all
<Gratz474>
well if i do boring things but i usually use good stuff to make it more fun
<schme>
Gratz474: My favourite time with programming is when it is accompanied with a soldering iron, and far away from x86-land ;)
<Gratz474>
yea
<Gratz474>
i mean embedded systems too
<Gratz474>
i can find intrest in alot of stuff
<Associat0r>
schme: have you looked at FRP?
<flux>
I wonder how small ocamlrun could get without standard libraries, in order to run it on an Atmel microcontroller with 32kB space
<flux>
but perhaps the GC algorithms already take a non-trivial quantity of it
<Gratz474>
i guess i should just be glad i found something i like
<Gratz474>
then looking for a compeitotor
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: ocaml, haskell, F# all have minimal syntax
* schme
googles frp
<schme>
Associat0r: Not quite sure what frp to look for here :)
<kaustuv>
schme: definitely check out conal elliott's paper "simply efficient frp"
<kaustuv>
(in fact, that's the best intro to the subject imho)
<schme>
functional reactivity. Thanks I will look into that :)
<Gratz474>
Associat0r, ocaml does thats why i am here
<schme>
Gratz474: It can be quite good to toy around with other stuff, me thinks. From what I understand different frameworks do things in very different ways etc. Maybe you can pick up some interesting ideas and improve django.
<Gratz474>
but nowhere near as minimal as python hehee
<schme>
python minimal. fun.
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: python is not minimal at everything
<schme>
Gratz474: I thought pylons was where it's all at anyway ;)
<Associat0r>
schme: yes that kind of FRP
<schme>
Associat0r: also the pdf is short enough to print! yay :)
<schme>
screw the environment. I'm not reading on the screen.
<Gratz474>
schme, who told you that?
<Gratz474>
pylons has nowhere near the userbase of django
<Gratz474>
schme, i think you just said that too annoy me ;)
<Gratz474>
thats a big thing in python pylons vs django, yet even the django irc channel has 5x more
<Gratz474>
schme, its nowhere near as clean as django though heeh
<kaustuv>
Note: the python people seem to think that their convoluted semantics is perfectly natural. YMMV.
<schme>
Gratz474: Some pylon users.
<Gratz474>
yea im sure
<schme>
Gratz474: I have no idea which is more popular. But I'll agree with python not being minimal :)
<Gratz474>
how is python not minmal?
<Gratz474>
you can argue its bad etc
<Gratz474>
but its for sure minimal
<schme>
Gratz474: The way different things behave differently, why not.
<Gratz474>
object.method() that is about as minimal as it becomes
<Gratz474>
thestring = "dfdsfdsf"
<schme>
see.
<schme>
you have . doing on thing ( something else ) another. and = one thing.
<schme>
and you can't even change what they do.
<schme>
they're like.. bizarre static entities all treated differently.
<Gratz474>
can't change what they do??
<schme>
and you have { and [ and what heck. if it was minimal there would be no special rules for any of 'em.
<schme>
Gratz474: there are special rules in python for what, for example, = does.
<Associat0r>
schme: is there an official #light syntax planned for ocaml?
<Gratz474>
you can do operator overloading easy
<schme>
Gratz474: That does not help it not being minimal.
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: F# can do too
<Gratz474>
yea
<schme>
Gratz474: How about you fire up your interpreter and just do = and hit enter. You will get 'invalid syntax'
<Gratz474>
i mean i am just saying compared to even java i mean its very minimal
<schme>
because =, and others have specific rules with how they are interpreted.
<schme>
uh yes. java is a bad choice for minimal ;)
<Gratz474>
and or c++
<schme>
sure man.
<schme>
Associat0r: I have not.
<kaustuv>
Python gets one thing righter than ocaml: immutable strings
<schme>
Gratz474: that does not really make python syntax any kind of minimal anyway. Compare it to say forth or scheme. forth with 2 special things, scheme with just about the same.
<schme>
Gratz474: python has atleast { ' : , [ and (
<Gratz474>
scheme you have to do so much more to do even a simple hello world in python
<schme>
I guess also = } ' : ] )
<schme>
Gratz474: ?
<Gratz474>
its meant to be readable
<Gratz474>
i mean use what you want
<Gratz474>
i dont htink scheme is human readablethough
<schme>
That's neat.
<schme>
I don't find python human readable. But that doesn't really matter :)
<schme>
It's just python being minimal...it's a bit funny. There is nothing minimal about it :)
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: F# is not C# or java
<Gratz474>
schme, its very readable hehe
<schme>
Gratz474: I am looking at a table of python operators. I assure you that is larger also than smalltalk.
<Gratz474>
there is a reason why its popular
<schme>
Indeed.
<Gratz474>
fortran is prolly even smaller
<schme>
there is also a reason why microsoft windows is popular.
<schme>
fortran is quite big actually.
<Gratz474>
fortran is so hard to read though
<schme>
and a very nice language too :)
<Gratz474>
i like things that are menat for humans
<schme>
yeah but it's fast ;)
<Gratz474>
you like cobol too?
<schme>
I think you are in the wrong industry then ;)
<Gratz474>
its minimal
<schme>
modern cobol is far from minimal.
<Gratz474>
i dont think so?
<Gratz474>
c++ is pretty readable
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<Gratz474>
but some things like lisp and stuff can get pretty non readable
<schme>
sure it is readable. everything is readable if you put your mind to it.
<kaustuv>
schme: I challenge you to read unlambda programs
<Gratz474>
you have to be on drugs to think that
<schme>
Gratz474: also the python standard library is quite far from minimal.
<Gratz474>
i like a good standard lib
* schme
looks up unlambda.
<schme>
Gratz474: Me too. I like a good standard library. But my point is that I can't see anything minimal at all about python.
<Gratz474>
i said syntax
<schme>
right.
<Gratz474>
everyone says python is minimal
<Gratz474>
not me
<schme>
and I tell yuo that the python syntax is not minimal.
<Gratz474>
there main page says it
<schme>
kaustuv: That's crazy.
<Gratz474>
it is minmal compared to php and perl
<kaustuv>
now unlambda really *does* have minimal syntax
<kaustuv>
well, except that the i combinator is not really necessary
<schme>
Gratz474: of course it does. it is trying to market the language. Insurance salesmen will tell you their insurance is worth the price too.
<Gratz474>
i guess binary is less minimal huh? i mean do what you want if you are using it for fun math challenging your self thats all good for real apps i odnt think so
<Gratz474>
schme, that 2nd example readable ?
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: most reall apps aren't done with python either
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: it's dynamic typing will bite you
<schme>
Gratz474: I find it very readable, but that does not really matter. What matters more is that the syntax is very minimal. unlike python that does *not* have a minimal syntax.
<Gratz474>
oh python has a big presence hehe
<Gratz474>
google?
<Gratz474>
yea they are not real
<Gratz474>
nasa they are fake too :)
<schme>
No one is arguing that python is very succesful and a lot of people use it.
<schme>
not.
<Associat0r>
Gratz474: I mean reall big apps
<Gratz474>
schme, i could never tell you one thing that its doing
<Gratz474>
zope was the most used web framework in history back in 99
<schme>
Gratz474: That is probably because you are not used to reading s-exps and you do not understand call/cc
<Gratz474>
you ar correct i do not
<schme>
Gratz474: the syntax is much smaller than python though.
<Gratz474>
yet you could look at a python and pretty much make it out
<kaustuv>
guys, a friendly reminder to take a second look at the topic of this channel
<schme>
Yes, that is true. I could.
<schme>
Gratz474: my wife, however, could not.
<schme>
yeah.
<schme>
time to eat some steak anyway :)
<Gratz474>
well im getting off here
<Gratz474>
enjoy using whatever lang you guys like using :P
<schme>
the same to you.
<schme>
and remember, it takes 50 people and 3 years to write a good website and/or webapp.
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<kaustuv>
hmm, pycaml seems ancient, but I could have sworn there was some recent announcement about this
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<Camarade_Tux>
camlpy?
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<Camarade_Tux>
camlpy is about a year old, don't know when it has last been updated
<Camarade_Tux>
schme: cuda bindings? daml
<schme>
Camarade_Tux: thanks
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<flux>
schme, bah, it takes one person and one week to write a useful website for a group of people :)
<schme>
flux: I was referring to Gratz474's statement on that it takes 50 men and 4 years to write a game.
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<flux>
oh, right, I just came back and didn't feel like reading the lastlog :)
<schme>
not worth the read.
<schme>
I can sum it up in django is great if you like webdevelopment. ;)
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<Gratz474>
:) it is great
<Gratz474>
flux, with django it would take 2 days
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<Camarade_Tux>
bah, I was wondering why my code was failing and couldn't find libsoup, I thought about every possible bad name possible, then I realized I hadn't installed it since I formatted earlier this week ><
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