mfp changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | OCaml 3.11.2 released | Inscription for OCaml Meeting 2010 is opened http://wiki.cocan.org/events/europe/ocamlmeetingparis2010
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<alexyk> so, will 3.12 include concurrent GC?
<thelema> no
<alexyk> what a downer
<thelema> it's unlikely that ocaml will ever include concurrent GC
<alexyk> but the prototype was demonstrated a while ago!
<alexyk> and Xavier said it needs to be developed, etc., but he didn't say it will never be incorporated
<thelema> are you referring to oc4mc?
<alexyk> thelema: don't remember, but the "realest" one which caused a stir :)
<thelema> from around last september?
<alexyk> yeah
<thelema> It's a stop & copy collector, not concurrent GC
<alexyk> I mean we do need to make Dr Harrop happy, don't we? We have an obligation. OCaml must match F#'s concurrency.
<thelema> concurrency is fine. multi-process concurrency.
<alexyk> thelema: interesting; but am not sure the same as discussed on the list...
<alexyk> thelema: what do you have against threads?
<thelema> I just don't like them. I'm happier with processes.
<alexyk> thelema: you probably don't need them either :)
<thelema> true
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<alexyk> I switched to Clojure a while ago for, among other things, its concurrency. Beautiful and well thought-through. pmap and STM are very elegant and mash with the immutability; can't see why OCaml can't borrow them verbatim.
<thelema> probably no real reason, other than that you wouldn't easily get multiple processors working at the same time easily
<alexyk> thelema: I replace map by pmap and get a good speedup. Makes me happy!
<alexyk> may be not linear -- on an 8 CPU box I can get anywhere from 2x to 8x -- but often sensible
<alexyk> I tried Scala's agents which were buggy and not as easy to plug in; Clojure's model is clean and it works.
<alexyk> but of course I have anti-JVM cravings every day for slowness in general. If OCaml is fast, it should be even faster with concurrency.
<dark> alexyk, the problem is the GC AFAIK
<dark> you need to stop the whole world in order to collect
<alexyk> dark: yeah, this is what I was hoping for, 3.12 and some better GC. So, that oc4mc -- what's wrong with it so it didn't make it into 3.12?
<dark> I don't know. I heard this is just a hard problem
<thelema> oc4mc is very prototype-quality code
<dark> people that develop compilers for FP languages already solved a lot of hard problems, so I think this problem should be solved eventually, too o.o
<dark> I would like to work with this kind of thing, btw :t
<dark> hmm, compilers in general were improved
<alexyk> dark: Clojure and F# are FP languages with pretty good concurrency.
<alexyk> not to mention Erlang of course
<alexyk> clojure really kicks ass, but I'm ambivalent on dynamicity
<alexyk> there's no pain developing, until you get a Null Pointer Exceltion
<alexyk> Exception
<dark> alexyk, .NET runtime has pretty good concurrency?
<dark> hmm, and where's the catch?
<alexyk> dark: Dr Harrop says it's superb
<dark> alexyk, does he work at microsoft :) ?
<drk-sd> :D
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<alexyk> dark: nope, but overall folks say .NET has pretty good concurrent tools
<alexyk> I just don't want to invest into .NET
<dark> i will not invest into .NET
<dark> i'm getting sad that bitC folks will invest into it @.@
<Associat0r> what's wrong with .NET?
<dark> oh, nothing
<Associat0r> BitC isn't investing in .NET, it's just one of the VM's it will support
<dark> ^^
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<dark> i think it will be the first
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<Associat0r> well he has to start somewhere
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<dark> but that's ok; everyone should use the tools that finds interesting
<dark> there may be problems with software patents, but I don't think it could harm bitC
<Associat0r> there are no problems with patents
<Associat0r> also the CLR has TCO and user defined struct support
<dark> microsoft threatened in the past without reasonable cause
<alexyk> anyone tried bitC?
<dark> i just read docs o.o the syntax is being finished
<alexyk> when 9 people program in it, I'll be the 10th to try :)
<alexyk> but, I started the rsync... it pulls a .hg repo too
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<Associat0r> dark: well they made some agreement to not sue anyone
<Associat0r> dark: I don't see the problem
<alexyk> no toplevel README... (ominous music playng)
<dark> alexyk, hmm, i read a very nice doc, and i'm following the discussion at the bitc-dev mailing list.. (and adding some silly comments). i would use the language, i liked it
<dark> currently i have no use for it
<alexyk> dark: there's a doc/ subdir, but no toplevel README correlates with 5 more years of obscurity
<dark> alexyk, they don't want to encourage actual use, because it's not ready, semantics (and specially syntax) may/will change
<alexyk> the secret of success: host on github; have a toplevel README; and an instructional video! (kidding)... ah ok
<alexyk> but compiling into C sounds like a good idea
<dark> it's just for bootstrapping
<alexyk> except, C is different everywhere. Compiling into Java is a safer idea
<alexyk> except Java sucks...
<alexyk> no shiny path here
<dark> bitC->C isn't efficient
<dark> alexyk, hmm, no, C has a "safe" subset.. you just can't rely on alignment, sizes, etc
<alexyk> dark: exactly. That's the main reason people painfully use Java, when they have no time for iddefs
<alexyk> ifdefs
<dark> in fact, if you don't rely in anything that is 'undefined', your program will be fine
<alexyk> well, look at any GNU project; autoconf and crap -- Java may be ugly, but all that nightmare is gone
<alexyk> I wonder what will change with wide adoption of C99 and C++0x, but probably not all incompatibility will be gone
<alexyk> is bitC a liso?!
<alexyk> lisp??
<dark> not really
<dark> they are planning a concrete C-like syntax right now
<orbitz> C99 is unlikley to be widely adopted
<orbitz> MS won't support it
<dark> lisp is just easier to design a new language, because the scope of variables are usually explicit (those extra parenthesis are there for a reason)
<dark> orbitz, really? @.@
<dark> orbitz, i wonder why
<dark> but still, gcc will probably support it someday..
<orbitz> dark: because ther eis no point
<orbitz> meh, C99 support in GCC is pretty stalled form what I see
<orbitz> C99 relaly just doesn't offer much value, no tlike C++1x
<dark> orbitz, but, but.. :P
<Associat0r> dark: it also got it's start from a lang with lisplike syntax
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<orbitz> C++1x is going to be a major cluster fuck
<Associat0r> orbitz: why?
<orbitz> it's huge
<orbitz> and they elft out Concepts, probably one of the best things in tehre
<orbitz> an dit's increadibly complicated
<dark> was the old version of C++ completely implemented by anyone?
<orbitz> comaeu claims it
<dark> it's not open source.. it's harder to claim completeness then, i guess
<orbitz> well being open source done'a tmatter, you can just run it thought tests designed to test teh language
<orbitz> probably easier than rooting around teh code too
<dark> exhaustive testing is very complicated, specially for something as complex as the C++ spec
<dark> if you were talking about verification i would believe, but even that, C++ has no formal specification (afaik)
<orbitz> readign teh code for every case is just as hard
<orbitz> what do you eman by formal specification?
<orbitz> the stnadard has EBNF
<dark> this is just a grammar, right?
<orbitz> yes
<dark> i mean formal semantics, ala SML
<orbitz> do you mean stating what actions are defined/udnefined/impelemtnation defined?
<dark> no, i mean, if the spec is mathematically defined, you can use a theorem prover (like isabelle or coq) for proving that a certain implementation is completely correct
<dark> that is a path that seems more safe than relying on tests, but i may be wrong
<orbitz> ah
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<adrien> alexyk: the concurrent GC *prototype* is still under developpement and had some (nice) changes since it was presented along with its results, in its current form it's not stable however
<adrien> alexyk: also, the dev team really needs people to test it and report it
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<adrien> could someone start harassing me in 6 hours and only stop when I'm cleaning the ocaml meeting recodrdings or transcripting them?
<adrien> (I keep forgetting =/ )
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<gildor> adrien: if you can find a way to do it so that I can apply almost the same techniques on the video we did in the morning, that will be perfect
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<kaustuv> thelema: are you planning to extend pcre-ocaml to char bigarrays?
<flux> adrien, harass. harass!
<adrien>  ^^
* adrien just got back, eat first!
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<flux> no time for eating, it's time for transcribing!
<adrien> hahaha
<adrien> want to help? :P
<f[x]> ocsigen.xhtml -> ocsigen_xhtml, debian findlib package name, very funny indeed. What about backward compatibility?
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<f[x]> could at least provide ocsigen.xhtml with requires="ocsigen_xhtml"
<mehdid> f[x]: submit a bug report (either against the Debian package or ocsigen itself)
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<f[x]> sure, just whining aloud :)
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<mehdid> sure
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<gildor> all: there are 2 job opportunities on Jobs board of the OCaml dev. LinkedIn group (sorry for the noise)
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<adrien> gildor: it's going to make me angry: it looks like I had a better recording quality when I used my headphones as an input than when I used the cable and hooked it up the room's sound system
* adrien blames impedance mismatches
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<sgnb> f[x]: ocsigen.xhtml also disappeared upstream...
<sgnb> (in ocsigen 1.3.1)
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<sgnb> (it mehdid's fault, btw)
<f[x]> that makes me think that including dependencies in source code tree is actually a good idea
<sgnb> f[x]: why?
<f[x]> don't break behind my back
<sgnb> well... you don't have to update your system either...
<adrien> oasis' to-be-implemented functionnality? (yeah, pretty vague...)
<sgnb> if one of the libs you're using is updated, you should be wary
<f[x]> well, in ideal world - yes, but that's even not my system :)
<sgnb> f[x]: would you also include the sources of ocaml in your sources? of eglibc?
<sgnb> the change is very light, here, and the fix is trivial
<f[x]> trolling?
<f[x]> except that I cannot ensure that this change will happen atomically on all systems where my code is compiled
<f[x]> hell, explaining backward compatibility to DD.. feels strange
<sgnb> I understand backword compatibility
<sgnb> I am not so fond of "compatibility stuff", especially with OCaml stuff when fixing is often trivial
<sgnb> compatibility stuff tend to clutter the code
<f[x]> nobody is fond of compatibility stuff :)
<sgnb> f[x]: but if you want ocsigen.ext, please file a bugreport and I will add it
<f[x]> sure
<mehdid> sgnb: how it should be my fault? I hope you were joking!
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<gildor> adrien: well sound has always been a strange things to me for OCaml Meeting
<sgnb> mehdid: I forgot the smiley :)
<mehdid> that's better :)
<gildor> f[x]: one day there will be oasis-bundle that will help you to do that (was called oasis-selftcontained in my slides at OCaml Meeting)
<gildor> f[x]: but there is a lot of work to do before reaching this point
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* f[x] is currently trying oasis on new project :)
<gildor> f[x]: I am here, don't hesitate to ask
<f[x]> everything works fine to the point, and docs are great
<gildor> good to hear ;-)
<adrien> gildor: heh, hopefully I think it should be ok after cleaning (a transcript would still be good)
<f[x]> actually one nitpick - (type '?' for help) after (almost) each question in -quickstart just distracts attention from the question itself
<gildor> I have nothing against removing it
<gildor> maybe only if you give the wrong answer ?
<gildor> f[x]: submit a feature request if you wish
<f[x]> just printing it at the start and ensuring that each question will interpret "?" correctly (currently "repository" does not)
<gildor> bug me ! ;-)
<adrien> still looking for something that'd let me anaylyse an audio signal, especially "substracting" spectrums
<gildor> f[x]: using "OASIS -dev" when creating an application is very nice, you can add library dependencies just with a simple edit of _oasis and get it automatically set everywhere
<gildor> f[x]: the only drawback is that you start using a lot of libraries with this method
<gildor> ;-)
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<adrien> might end up transcripting: it's hard to remove the noise without removing the speaker voice too
<thelema> adrien: it's *much* easier to get the recording right the first time than to go back and clean it up to remove constant noise
<adrien> thelema: the sad part is that at first, I was using my music player (which is actually more than that) and my headphones and the recording is really good but then I plugged my music player into the room's sound system, thinking the sound would be better, and it's not
<gildor> adrien: don't spend too much time on this, the sound of the video should be ok
<gildor> adrien: I think that we found the right spot to have the better amplification during the meeting
<adrien> gildor: get http://pers.yaxm.org/temp/Mic/VOR%202010-04-16%2011-49-24.wma , it's from the second part of the morning, has most (not all) of your oasis talk and the lambdoc one too
<gildor> adrien: even those who didn't hold the mic in front of them have a correct sound
<adrien> ok, it's good then :-)
<gildor> adrien: ping me tonight with this URL, sound files are stored at home and tmy computer is currently off
<adrien> the part that's missing was testing on a computer to get the best place/setting (sounded fine on my headphones)
<adrien> ok, will do
<adrien> hmmm, might not be there until quite late actually (but will find a way)
<gildor> no pb, I am writing the software to extract meta information from my video recorder and convert them to something Debian friendly
<gildor> (in OCaml of course)
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<gildor> so there is nothing urgent
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<adrien> heheh :P
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<gildor> sound is in AC3... not debian friendly
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<adrien> well, my recordings are .wma files, dunno if it's better :P
<gildor> will convert it anyway
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<dmhouse> Hi guys. I'm completely new to OCaml and am looking for feedback on the first function I've written -- mostly stylistically, as in whether this is idiomatic, whether there are any syntactic shortcuts I'm missing et.
<dmhouse> http://pastebin.com/KCYhHTLV is the function
<thelema> ok, pastebin it.
<dmhouse> It's classic root finding by interval bisection.
<thelema> you don't need ": int ref" on L3
<dmhouse> Okay, thanks. (Coming from Haskell where numeric literals are polymorphic.)
<thelema> other than that, looks solid
<dmhouse> I guess I'd probably actually write it without the reference
<thelema> You might decide to fold in 'n' as a parameter to [go]
<dmhouse> Just pass a counter to go
<thelema> exactly
<thelema> but no biggie - ref cells are good.
<thelema> There's a function [incr] in the stdlib to do what L11 does
<dmhouse> Oh great
<thelema> Also, I might use [Printf.printf "quitting after %d\n" !n] for L8
<dmhouse> Ah, I was about to ask if there was a printf
<thelema> yup, a fairly nice one. Don't mind the type magical format strings.
<adrien> yeah, the types are quite uncommon
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<dmhouse> Thanks, thelema. I may be back with more in a bit
<dmhouse> If anyone has any suggestions for exercises that are good first programs, I'd happily take those too
<dmhouse> Is there a snoc : 'a list -> 'a -> 'a list that adds an element to the end of a list? Or is List.append list [x] the way to do it?
<thelema> (list @ [x])
<thelema> in general, the proper idiom is to prepend to accumulator lists and reverse at the end
<Associat0r> list concat is expensive
<dmhouse> Right, it's O(n)
<Associat0r> appand that is
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<dmhouse> Is there a function to return the list of values from a to b inclusive?
<thelema> not builtin. In Batteries there's Enum.(--)
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<dmhouse> Is String.length O(1)?
<thelema> yes
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<rovar> can anyone point me to some ocaml resources for low level async IO ? I'm looking for a thin wrapper over epoll / kqueue / etc
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<rovar> if such a thing doesn't exist, I'll write one
<thelema> http://ocsigen.org/lwt/install <- not built on epoll/kqueue, but async IO
<rovar> lwt looks rather interesting, I didn't know that it did IO as well
<thelema> http://www.xs4all.nl/~mmzeeman/ocaml/ <- ocaml-event
<jakedouglas> rovar: i started a little project similar to ruby's eventmachine http://github.com/jakedouglas/ocamlmachine
<jakedouglas> rovar: ill warn you that its the only ocaml i have ever written though
<thelema> jane street's lib is probably going to be the thinnest wrapper
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<gildor> adrien: downloading
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<thieusoai> is there a built in function to check if 2 lists of numbers are equal ? e.g., [1;2;3] = [1;2;3]
<adrien> in the same order?
<adrien> like [1;2] would be different from [2;1] ?
<thieusoai> yes
<thieusoai> have to be in same order
<adrien> well: use '=' :P
<thieusoai> oh duh -- thanks
<adrien> ^^
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<gildor> ls
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