gildor changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | OCaml 3.12.0 http://bit.ly/aNZBUp
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<MarcWeber> When building opt: str.o, should this file be provided by thes system?
<MarcWeber> When trying to link .cmx files into the executable its missing
<MarcWeber> However running ocamlopt on all .ml files seem to work (?)
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<thelema> str.cmxa
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<adrien> hi, in ocamlmakefile, is anyone aware of dependency sorting for the SOURCES variable? ocamlmakefile seems to be calling ocamldep but I'm not sure what for since it doesn't seem to order deps
<adrien> (I'm now using ocamldsort which nicely sorts files but I'm still curious)
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<rwmjones> for ordinary Makefiles, I do it by hand ...
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<adrien> it's for a binding generator so I need the automation and there are at least 50 files
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<adrien> I'll also eventually use ocamlbuild (again) but I need to work-around some problem with it first
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<rwmjones> adrien: ocamldsort or ocamldep I guess ...
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<adrien> yeah, I'm now using ocamldsort and it seems to be working well but I don't really get why ocamlmakefile calls ocamldep not to sort dependencies
<adrien> anyway, everything's hopefully mostly working now :-)
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<MarcWeber> thelema: thanks. Adding .cmxa files made linking suceed
<Anarchos> why is smoothsort not available in the sort module ?
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<gildor> Anarchos: quite specialized sort, isn't it?
<Anarchos> gildor i don't yhink so
<gildor> it only works better on almost sorted list?
<Anarchos> gildor yes
<gildor> for under 1000 elements, the diff should be almost negligeable
<gildor> => adding it to std library will not bring overly powerful feature
<MarcWeber> Is there a portable open file for appending implementation?
<gildor> but it can be interesting to have it in a specialized sort library
<Anarchos> gildor ok
<gildor> Pervasvives.open_out_gen + Open_append
<gildor> Anarchos: you could ask the same question for radix sort...
<Anarchos> gildor anyway i am more interested in my full sparcv9 compliant simulator in ocaml than sorting :)
<gildor> Anarchos: indeed, better asks OCaml team to implement compiler stuff ;-)
<gildor> sparcv9 sim -> like qemu ?
<Anarchos> gildor yes
<Anarchos> gildor for now i follow the sparcv9 manual, to implement all the norm stuff
<gildor> nice
<gildor> MarcWeber: Pervasvives.open_out_gen + Open_append
<gildor> do you intend to publish it?
<gildor> Anarchos: ^^^
<Anarchos> gildor sure !! why not ?
<Anarchos> gildor my philosophy is : never pay to get stuff on the net, but if you make some, give it for free
<gildor> just to know, this can be interesting
<Anarchos> gildor i do it at work when boss is not here ;)
<gildor> how about speed ?
<gildor> Anarchos: ^^^
<Anarchos> which speed ?
<gildor> Anarchos: speed of the sim
<gildor> does it match native speed?
<gildor> (surely not, but you can use it as a mark)
<Anarchos> gildor i just began to code it :) but if compiled in native , it could be fast enough
<gildor> what about translating sparcv9 code into LLVM instruction and execute the generated code
<gildor> ?
<Anarchos> gildor i don't know what llvm is
<Anarchos> it seems to be a "surcouche" , so i wonder what can be the interest of that :/
<gildor> you can use LLVM IR which is enough low-level to generate a kind of bytecode that you can execute on a high-speed VM
<adrien> the intermediate representation gets optimizations and it's simpler to code for it (simpler language/assembly)
<Anarchos> gildor my goal was to be able to run binaries for sparc within a ocaml simulation :)
<MarcWeber> adrien: So have you had success setting up completion now? :-P
<gildor> Anarchos: ok
<MarcWeber> coding ocaml starts being fun
<gildor> BTW, to decode the instruction you can use ocaml-bitstring
<gildor> I think it can be quiet efficient to read binary instruction
<adrien> MarcWeber: currently writing what is hopefully the last bits of http://git.ocamlcore.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=cowboy/cowboy.git;a=summary before I can announce it as a preview/alpha :-)
<MarcWeber> adrien: So you've been working on glib/gtk bindings?
<Anarchos> gildor i did myself the decoder :)
<adrien> MarcWeber: yeah, hopefully lablgtk actually has lots of things to automate the work (signals and properties handling, macros to wrap C functions, conversions for C enums...)
<adrien> I don't want to replace lablgtk*, this is only meant to add more glib-based libraries
<MarcWeber> Not reading about "Didin't use tool X" makes me wonder whether you know that some binding generators do already exist. Probably you know what you're doing better than I do..
<MarcWeber> I know that HaXe is still lacking gtk bindings..
<adrien> there is camlidl but it's pretty low-level (I don't think you can tell it to output code for an object, or if you can, I think it gets pretty complicated) and most others were abandonned or didn't do the job
<MarcWeber> adrien: there is a tool which is used for different scripting languages.
<gildor> MarcWeber: swig ?
<MarcWeber> y
<MarcWeber> I think that was the name.
<adrien> here, I have two "stages": first the code is parsed by yacfe and translated to a simpler form (yacfe outputs a lot of info that is not needed here) and then, a project-specific module outputs the code
<adrien> it's not possible to make something that works for everything while still providing a clean and uniform interface, so I made something specific*
<adrien> (and for lablgtk2 and other libraries, the code really isn't complicated so it fits automatic generation)
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<MarcWeber> Does ocaml accept utf-8 source files?
<flux> afaik no
<adrien> iirc you can put utf8 inside strings but not in regular code
<adrien> no utf8 identifiers for instance
<flux> latin1 umlauts work, though
<flux> but I guess you won't be using those unless your editor supports mixed utf8/latin1 :)
<adrien> but the length of strings will be miscalculated (you can see Camomille however for utf8)
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<krankkatze> Hi
<krankkatze> what's the best and most simple choice for playing sounds with OCaml? I don't need any graphics so I don't think ocamlsdl or the graphics module are good solutions
<Smerdyakov> print_endline "Please make a frog noise now."
<adrien> krankkatze: hi, I like libao
<Associat0r> Harrop?
<adrien> had troubles with libalsa, libao was much simpler to use and is cross-platform :-)
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<Smerdyakov> On most UNIX platforms, there is a /dev device you can just write bits to.
<Smerdyakov> (To play sounds)
<adrien> but writing to it directly won't play nicely with other sound-playing apps
<krankkatze> adrien: debian seems to have a package for ocaml-ao, but archlinux doesnt and I can't find any upstream
<krankkatze> should I write my own interface?
<adrien> it's been wrapped by the savonnet project which has a sourceforge page (it's somewhere on their download page)
<MarcWeber> adrien: There are tools to redirect write calls to /dev/dsp though. So its a tradeoff programmers time vs ..
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<krankkatze> I found it adrien
<krankkatze> thanks a lot
<adrien> libao is very simple to use however, I think it took me less than five minutes to have it play music :-)
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<krankkatze> adrien: is there any documentation/tutorial or do I have to read the .mli?
<krankkatze> I've been searching the web without success
<adrien> I think I read the .mli
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<Smerdyakov> Does anyone know of contract web programming opportunities that would be compatible with using zany functional programming languages?
<ulfdoz> lol. waht did you smoke? *scnr*
<Anarchos> Smerdyakov if i did i would apply :)
<Smerdyakov> I expect most people who want web applications don't understand programming enough to express preferences.
<ulfdoz> let's say it the following: Learn PHP.:)
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<Smerdyakov> Why?
<ulfdoz> That is what most web sites do.
<Smerdyakov> I'm genuinely curious why you think people who develop web sites directly for non-technical customers face serious constraints on languages used.
<ulfdoz> The next releveant mass is based in Java Techniques.
<Smerdyakov> Was that meant to answer the question from my last message?
<ulfdoz> no not really.
<ulfdoz> The thing is, that at least in my regien, web developers are some kind stupid folk.
<adrien> Smerdyakov: because if a competitor puts "ruby", "php", "ajax" and "python" in the same sentence, it will probably *appear* better to the non-technical
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<Smerdyakov> ulfdoz, yup. I want to kick things up to a new level and build a brand around far superior service.
<Smerdyakov> adrien, I would have thought most non-technical people don't yet have associations with those words.
<ulfdoz> Smerdyakov: Would get my agreement, although I do my stuff in Java. But unfortunately I'm not allowed to do that decision.
<adrien> Smerdyakov: they've heard it once or twice
<Smerdyakov> adrien, I have the advantage of advanced degrees, which might cancel out the buzzwords. :)
<Anarchos> i work for credit mutuel and we have all that java crap
<adrien> Smerdyakov: I hope so
<ulfdoz> Smerdyakov: That doesn't work here (Germany). The most stupid idiots sit above you.
<adrien> (but what if they have an advanced degree in scams? ;-) )
<Smerdyakov> Anarchos, I don't want to become an employee. Obviously that is a bad idea in general. :D
<Smerdyakov> ulfdoz, I'm confused. Contract programmers don't need to have anyone sitting above them.
<Anarchos> Smerdyakov i know but i had no chance to do it without a boss
<ulfdoz> Smerdyakov: There is a so called project manager, which sits above you.
<Smerdyakov> ulfdoz, sorry, that's not the case. I can organize things however I want when I contract directly with customers.
<ulfdoz> Smerdyakov: And yes, I am employed programmer, but that face is for kicking.
<ulfdoz> Smerdyakov: I can too, but I'm not allowed, and that's the point where I get into anger with the project manager.
<Smerdyakov> ulfdoz, yes. Like you said, your problem is that you are an employee.
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<ulfdoz> Smerdyakov: No, that isn't my problem. I can get employed anywhere else. My problem is: Some people simply don't listen to expensively bought expertise.
<Smerdyakov> Well, we'll see. :)
<ulfdoz> Smerdyakov: We pay thousands of euros for consultants we realize at most 20% of the hints we got, while the consultant is at least to 80% right.
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<Smerdyakov> I want to change the image of a web application from Big Project with Lots of Planning to Something an Expert Can Do Quickly.
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<Anarchos> Smerdyakov good luck :)
<ulfdoz> Won't work. There are at last 2 Persons, which don't bring you a win, but have your budget.
<Smerdyakov> I'm sorry, I can't understand your last sentence, ulfdoz.
<ulfdoz> Smerdyakov: You have a project, you need time and money. While the former is dominated by facts, the second is not. And the second is the thing idiots can decide about.
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<Smerdyakov> What does this have to do with the idea that superior technology should have a positive effect on your bottom line?
<ulfdoz> Smerdyakov: The technology would first effect the technicians. It won't affect existing systems, it won't affect existing employments and it won't effect general thoughts. First you have to widespread.
<Smerdyakov> Not with the web. No one but you needs to know anything about the programming technologies you use.
<ulfdoz> Smerdyakov: That is not correct. The day before yesterday, I have told my boss, we need to full time employees to get the stuff done. They both should know.
<Smerdyakov> Yes. Generalize my "you" to include your full development team.
<Smerdyakov> I think my language makes many jobs feasible for single people, though.
<ulfdoz> Smerdyakov: I won't say you should not give it a shot. I say, don't expect too much. Maybe it works it has before.
<Smerdyakov> I have much better technology than anyone else, as far as I can tell.
<ulfdoz> And now you need adoption, and that isn't a question of something called "better", that is a question of interoperability, compatibility and easyness.
<Smerdyakov> I'm not trying to get the mass programming audience to use my tools. It's enough if just me and my buds use it as a secret weapon.
<ulfdoz> Then I think, your goal is definitely feasible in forseeable future.
<Smerdyakov> P.S.: For anyone who wants to be my bud: http://www.impredicative.com/ur/
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<ulfdoz> Sounds promising.
<ulfdoz> How can you guarantee the consistency between compiled code and database?
<Smerdyakov> Dynamic check at application start
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<ulfdoz> And that deals with all kind of weirdness regarding some database products?
<Smerdyakov> You can load plug-ins for different DBMSes. The current distribution includes MySQL, Postgres, and SQLite. The last one doesn't have a system catalog, so no dynamic check is performed by that driver.
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<adrien> has anyone seen the following (with polymorphic variants and objects): Type download = < .. > is not compatible with type 'a
<adrien> why ' < .. > ' ?
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<ygrek_> let f x = Oo.copy x;;
<ygrek_> val f : (< .. > as 'a) -> 'a = <fun>
<ygrek_> it means "object with some methods"
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<adrien> but type download = [ `gobject | `download | `gtk ]
<ygrek_> show the code
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<adrien> gah
<Anarchos> adrien for open variants type , the ellipsis is a variable denoting the rest of your type
<adrien> it's actually the only thing that was still possible: I had one almost equal code that worked
<adrien> the problem is that 'class download = ...' shadows 'type download'
<adrien> simply using 'class download_' works around the problem
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<MarcWeber> test
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<MarcWeber> Did someone bann Poet_? He tried putting a question but can't send a message..
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<Znudzon> Hi all . I am new in Ocaml . I heard that Ocaml have something like a CPAN for Perl .. is it true ?
<MarcWeber> Znudzon: Yep, I can read your message. So changing the nick and logging in again worked.
<MarcWeber> Maybe its ocamlfind. I haven't used it yet - so I don't know
<Znudzon> ok but how i can add new lib without it ?
<gildor> Znudzon: well there is a current link db
<Znudzon> ??
<gildor> but this is far from CPAN
<flux> maybe he refers to godi: http://godi.camlcity.org/
<gildor> or OASIS-DB
<flux> well, that's a rather recent invention, I guess it doesn't have much coverage?
<gildor> flux: indeed
<Znudzon> godi will works on win 7 (with mingw ) ?
<flux> it works in windows in general, I don't know about platform-specific features
<gildor> Znudzon: well it kinda works on windows
<gildor> you need cygwin and X11 + rxvt
<gildor> (which is not very common, even for cygwin installation)
<Znudzon> i see . But if i want add liblary withoud something like a CPAN ...how i can do that ?
<gildor> Znudzon: what do you want to add ?
<gildor> Znudzon: you can start a project (on forge.ocamlcore.org for example) and made an annoucement on caml mailing list
<gildor> (which is the most common way to do thing until oasis-db will be ready)
<flux> ..I think he simply means adding a new package into his installation, not for others to use?
<Znudzon> i need gui lib for Ocaml
<Znudzon> YES ! :D
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<MarcWeber> Znudzon: What's your project about?
<Znudzon> MarcWeber : you mean why i need GUI for OCaml?
<flux> I'm not sure which options there are for GUI libs for Ocaml/windows. maybe TCL. that comes with ocaml.
<gildor> Znudzon: so you look for a search engine of OCaml packages
<flux> oops, I mean TK, not TCL
<gildor> there is also a GTK library that works on Wnindows
<flux> of course there are GTK2 bindings as well, but I wouldn't know how well they work in windows. (not that knew more about the tk bindings either..)
<gildor> Znudzon: you can search the hump http://caml.inria.fr//cgi-bin/hump.en.cgi
<Znudzon> TCL will be fine and easy to use. Ok i downloaded ActiveTcl but now i must add new package to my OCaml
<gildor> Znudzon: do you compile OCaml by yourself ?
<Znudzon> i downloaded Ocaml veriosn for MS win
<gildor> Znudzon: if it is not the case, Tcl/Tk is already there
<MarcWeber> Znudzon: gui can mean anything :) From simple buttons to complex OpenGL apps
<Znudzon> hehe ok but the main question is ... how i can add new packages :) After download ...let say OpenGL package what i must to do to use Opengl package in my Ocaml :D
<gildor> Znudzon: it depends how the upstream authors has done his packaging
<gildor> Znudzon: the standard way is to use ocamlfind
<gildor> Znudzon: in this case, when the package is installed you can find it with "ocamlfind list"
<gildor> and to compile it you need to add "-package lablgl" (if you use the LablGL OpenGL library)
<Znudzon> i must download ocamlfind or i have it in my Ocaml ?
<gildor> "ocamlfind ocamlc -package lablgl -linkpkg test.ml -o test"
<gildor> you must download and install findlib
<rwmjones> Znudzon: I might have missed it, but what OS are you using?
<Znudzon> win 7
<rwmjones> it's rumoured that GODI works on Windows now. It's a reasonable packaging solution (for OCaml) ...
<rwmjones> having said that, I haven't personally used GODI on Windows (only on Macs)
<Znudzon> i dont need ocamlfind when i have GODI ?
<rwmjones> GODI allows you to install ocamlfind easily (and a massive amount of other OCaml software). It's a packaging system.
<Znudzon> but i dont need ocamlfind when i have godi ... rignt ?
<rwmjones> you still need ocamlfind, but GODI makes it really easy to install it
<rwmjones> (assuming GODI still / ever worked on Windows)
<Znudzon> ehh i thin it may be faster when i reinstal win 7 to linux ...
<rwmjones> or install a VM ...
<Znudzon> i can writing Ocaml program that will works also on win ?
<rwmjones> yes ... for simple command line tools it's easy. For GUI tools, use Gtk (lablgtk2) and you'll be able to run it on Linux and Windows.
<rwmjones> (and Mac)
<Znudzon> i dont understand why functional proggraming languages are so dificult to use on win
<Znudzon> a lots of corporations use them :/
<sepp2k> Znudzon: In my experience many languages are hard to use on win - functional or not. On the other hand F# (a functional language) is perfectly easy to use on win.
<Znudzon> yeah but it's MS child like a C# ... and F3 is much slower then Ocaml
<adrien> afaik, godi works on cygwin+mingw, for msys+mingw, I'm not sure... (it partly worked, I don't know how much it has improved)
<Znudzon> now i must find how to instal it on win :)
<Znudzon> thank you for information
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<Znudzon> but if i want Gui program writen in Ocaml in Linux that will be working on win i must compile it on win ... When i want compile it on win i need all packages ... When i want all packages i need ocamlfind ...:/ Right ?
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<rwmjones> Znudzon: there are various options, including cross-compilation (google for mingw32-ocaml)
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<rwmjones> the main thing is to use Gtk, since it's a cross-platform GUI toolkit
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