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<mrvn> hmm, now units can move. time for bed.
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<vivanov> does ocaml support Microsoft COM server technology?
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<adrien> vivanov: there has been some stuff regarding that: ocamlidl, and something else on motion-twin iirc
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<vivanov> adrien: thx ill have a look
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<vext01_> i dont suppose anyone knows how to specify locale to ocamleditor IDE?
<vext01_> I would have thought it was LC_ALL or LANG or LC_CTYPE
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<f[x]> what is the best backward-compatible way to account for new compare_ext member in cusom_ops structure?
<f[x]> I can't seem to find the ocaml version in include files
<f[x]> I guess #if defined(custom_compare_ext_default) is acceptable
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<Juzor> hello
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<eni> hi, i got this from an Ocaml book http://pastebin.com/zEUxRrja and would like to add a sum function to the intrange..
<eni> i can see how to define sum using fold_right (with lists), but with abstract types it makes it more difficult in this case.
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<eni> ok wrote it.
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<pippijn_> I'm wondering how I should format my lwt ocaml code: http://paste.xinu.at/YS467m/
<rixed> pippijn_: looks nice
<pippijn_> in particular line 23
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<rixed> I would use a "lwt smthin = handle_password flags prompt in ...". I never use >>=.
<pippijn> I liked it, because it shows the flow of the result from handle_password into send "reply"
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<pippijn> send "reply" is a functional value (curried function with 2 arguments)
<rixed> Your version es very readable too.
<rixed> I guess there are no argument for or against >>=, it's just some are more used to one or the other.
<pippijn> an alternative to the >> thing would be lwt () = ... in Lwt.return env
* Hodapp wonders when the devs he works with are going to see the connection between their repeated insistence of "No one needs this in a programming language" about something common in languages like OCaml, and the fact that they keep re-implementing parts of it in very ad-hoc, ugly ways
<pippijn> never
<Hodapp> :(
<Hodapp> I guess this is what Greenspun's Tenth Rule was getting at
<pippijn> change your job
<Hodapp> to what?
<pippijn> work with better people
<pippijn> to a company that uses better languages
<Hodapp> such as?
<pippijn> I don't know, look on a job site
<pippijn> microsoft, for instance
<Hodapp> I'm not working for Microsoft.
<Hodapp> I have enough friends who work there, and I have enough experience with their products, that I want to steer far away.
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<hcarty> thelema: Any update on change the Ulib module name in Batteries?
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<hcarty> s/change/changing/
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<thelema> hcarty: The plan is to move it all into BatText
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<thelema> hasn't been done yet
<hcarty> thelema: Ok, thanks
<thelema> hcarty: will be done before 2.0 releases
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<hcarty> thelema: Ok. I've run into some issues with Batteries from oasis-db because of this.
<thelema> That will be updated too.
<thelema> probably before the 2.0 release
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<thelema> I hope to take care of the ulib code, release beta3 (and announce it for testing), then clean up the docs and fix bugs and release 2.0
<thomasga> is that possible to use oasis with ocamlbuild but without ocamlfind ?
<thelema> thomasga: to write a package that builds with oasis but without ocamlfind
<thomasga> (I don't want my build script to call "ocamlfind ocamlopt …" for every command line invocation)
<thelema> or to use someone else's package that assumes ocamlbuild + ocamlfind on a system w/o ocamlfind?
<thelema> ok, the first.
<thelema> why not?
<thomasga> yup the first
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<thomasga> because with "ocamlfind ocamlopt" all the META files are scanned and parsed (which invoke scanning again all backward dependencies each time you parse a META) for EACH compiler invocation
<thomasga> that's crazy ...
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<hcarty> imfld03$$
<thelema> really? that's pretty sucky.
<hcarty> Gah... search clearing garbage in the wrong window...
<thomasga> I'm ok to use ocamlfind in a Makefile where the first thing you do is: "INCLUDES = `ocamlfind query A B C -format …`
<thomasga> but using it with "ocamlfind ocamlopt …" is wrong ...
<thelema> You can use oasis without ocamlbuild at all, by using the custom configure/build/install targets
<thelema> thomasga: might be worth reporting this as a bug to gerd
<thomasga> well, it's more a bug in the `myocamlbuild.ml` generated oasis I guess
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<thomasga> well, I'll use custom scripts then …
<thelema> oh, I see - you want ocamlfind ocamlopt to scan the META files only once
<thelema> instead of on each invocation
<thomasga> yup
<thelema> it does need the data from the first scan each invocation
<thelema> but maybe ocamlfind could cache it in a .foo in the current directory?
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<thelema> and maybe just check the timestamps of the META files instead of full parsing?
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<thomasga> well, I guess that's the build-system problem to not call ocamlfind too often
<thomasga> but yes, I can submit a feature request to Gerd: "remove the 'ocamlfind <compiler>' option" :-)
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<thelema> thomasga: no, that's not a reasonable request.
<thelema> but you're right; maybe ocamlbuild should call ocamlfind differently
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<adrien> thomasga: I've never found ocamlfind's META-lookup overhead to be crazy
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<adrien> I think I had checked how long it took and found it pretty fast
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<thomasga> it really depends how many packages you have installed
<adrien> couple hundreds
<thomasga> hum
<adrien> 165 on this installation
<adrien> I mean: 165 META files; 261 packages from ocamlfind list
<thomasga> and what's the difference between calling "ocamlopt" and "ocamlfind ocamlopt -package foo" ?
<thelema> thomasga: ocamlfind will detect ocamlopt.opt and use it
<thomasga> last time I checked the overhead was quadratic in the number of installed packages
<thelema> and will add flags for that package based on the current tags
<thelema> thomasga: eww.
<thomasga> but maybe few things have changed since then
<thomasga> I haven't benchmarked it for a long time
<adrien> well, without compiling anything and on a micro and unreliable benchmark and with a hot cache, ocamlfind ocamlopt -package lablgtk2 is faster than only "ocamlopt"
<Hodapp> The strictness of OCaml is interesting, when I compare with some other languages; it's like that compile-time strictness ends up gaining you a lot, while still not making you care about the irrelevant.
<adrien> need to set a few things and strace ocamlfind
<thomasga> well, compare "ocamlopt.opt" and "ocamlfind ocamlopt" to be fair, then :-)
<Hodapp> it sounds like Scala is also somewhat similar
<thelema> Hodapp: you mean the strictness of the type system?
<adrien> thomasga: still faster, and ocamlfind ocamlopt actually runs ocamlopt(.opt) here too
<adrien> .opt, hmm
<adrien> hah
<adrien> that's why: I've configured my ocamlfind to use the .opt versions :-)
<Hodapp> thelema: Strictness of the type system, and strictness of how you specify things, perhaps.
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<Hodapp> yet still being very concise
<adrien> still, it's 20-25ms vs 3ms or so
<pippijn> it needs better utf8 libraries
<Hodapp> it's showing well that strict need not mean pedantic
<thomasga> well, when you build a project with hundred of compiler invocations, it makes a big difference
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<adrien> Hodapp: ocaml tries hard to bring the benefits of strictness while making sure it will be usable
<adrien> thomasga: of course but I wonder how long it takes to do the META lookup/parsing
<adrien> thomasga: also, are you running with powersaving features on?
<adrien> pmake 4.95s user 1.92s system 81% cpu 8.430 total
<adrien> pmake 3.99s user 1.54s system 79% cpu 6.944 total
<adrien> first is with governor = ondemand; second is with it = performance
<adrien> sometimes, ocamlopt compiles so quickly that it never actually makes the ondemand governor switch to the highest frequency I think
<thomasga> adrien: are you running ocamlopt.opt or "ocamlfind ocamlopt" ?
<pippijn> maybe someone here has a good idea for how to solve this..
<adrien> ocamlfind ocamlopt (it's through oasis; I don't exaclty see it but I know that ocamlfind gets invoked _several_ times; I'm quite confident it's invoked for each file)
<thelema> pippijn: utf8?
<pippijn> I have binary input (as string) of the following format: byte byte utf8char
<adrien> let me strace it
<thelema> adrien: just look at _build/_log
<adrien> strace's overhead <3
<thomasga> anyway, this doesn't solve my initial problem, I'm going back to my code :-)
<adrien> running "pgrep ocamlfind" several times gave a result each time, and with a different PID each time
<adrien> thomasga: back to code? it's getting late (and sunny for the first time today!)
<pippijn> how can I efficiently extract that utf8 character from the string/stream?
<thomasga> well it's always sunny where I live, so night coding is better :-)
<Hodapp> adrien: I'm liking that property of the language, though I'm still quite new to it.
<thomasga> pippijn: you can use ulex syntax extension
<pippijn> it's: byte byte utf8char
<pippijn> the bytes can be anything (they are 8 bit integers)
<Hodapp> adrien: I'd be curious to see, on some highly mathematical things, how it compares to C/C++, and perhaps likewise to how it compares to some of the OO atrocities I see in C++.
<thelema> pippijn: you can probably use the routines here: https://github.com/ocaml-batteries-team/batteries-included/blob/master/libs/ulib.ml#L151
<adrien> thomasga: ah, I had assumed you were in Paris ;-)
<adrien> and some numbers: 1.5ms (slow laptop) to go through Unix' META
<adrien> Hodapp: if you use floats in ocaml, you won't gain much since it models the standard float stuff that you also get in C, C++ and many others
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<pippijn> thelema: you mean copy it out and use it?
<Hodapp> adrien: Flow control can still be complex sometimes, even using floats; something like OCaml might be able to decude better what it can precompute, were I to guess.
<Hodapp> s/decude/deduce/
<pippijn> thelema: I've written that kind of code..
<thelema> pippijn: yes
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<adrien> thomasga: under strace, I get roughly 35ms for the ocamlfind-specific part and 100ms for the ocamlopt-specific on; the files are fairly simple so the ocamlopt-specific part would be bigger in almost any project (my files are _very_ simple)
<adrien> Hodapp: it won't precompute but gcc will (now and for a few years thanks to gmp, mpfr, and some other libs)
<adrien> where ocaml helps however is that you definitely will think twice before converting between ints and floats and you'll be fully aware when you do (unlike with silent casts)
<Hodapp> ah, yeah
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<hcarty> thelema: Are you still willing to put out a 1.4.2 release with the Set.map fix?
<hcarty> Or was it Map.map...
<thelema> hcarty: If someone fixes it. It was Set.map, because this changes the keys
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<hcarty> thelema: I can push a branch if that would help
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<hcarty> The only additional commit would be replacing the old map implementation with the fold version
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<hcarty> thelema: A patch against the v1.4.1 tag if you have time to take a look - http://vpaste.net/jSfgl
<thelema> testing...
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<thelema> pushed to github
<thelema> release running now
<hcarty> thelema: Thanks. Do you have a problem with 1.4.2 living in odb-stable, with 2.x living in testing and/or unstable?
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<thelema> hcarty: not at all
<thelema> uploaded to oasis-db
<thelema> new testing promoted to stable
<thelema> with batteries 1.4.2
<hcarty> thelema: Neato
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<hcarty> It may be a good idea to keep oasis back to the latest 0.2-based release. Otherwise the resulting packages won't work on oasis-db.
<thelema> good point
<thelema> oasis version dropped
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<pippijn> http://paste.xinu.at/IZJkcI/ <- any ideas how to do this in a cleaner way? I'm especially not happy about the list ref in parse_glyph (line 92)
<pippijn> I'm also not happy with codepoint (line 23)
<thelema> BatUTF8.get (BatList.enum chars |> BatString.of_backwards |> BatUTF8.adopt) 0
<pippijn> not better
<pippijn> that's just different syntax
<thelema> You could probably also adapt UTF8.get for a list of chars
<pippijn> I'd rather not copy code
<thelema> well, batteries currently doesn't have uchar parsing from an enum. we could add this if you write it.
<thelema> or you can put it on my TODO list and I'll get to it, probably around the time I redo unicode in 2.0
<pippijn> I'm going to live with it for now and maybe someday when I have more time on my hands and I want to get involved with batteries, I can do some things
<pippijn> any ideas on how to make parse_glyph not use ref?
<pippijn> (except by inlining parse_glyph_part and extending the state machine)
<thelema> pippijn: yes, this is easy
<pippijn> ok, wait
<thelema> let parse_glyph data = let rec pg_loop acc = if is_empty data then List.rev acc else pg_loop (parse_glyph_part data :: acc)
<pippijn> right
<thelema> in pg_loop []
<thelema> You could also use Enum.unfold if you were feeling extra functional
<pippijn> ah, I'll look at that
<pippijn> no, not nice, I'll stick with the manual recursive function
<thelema> (fun d -> if is_empty d then None else Some (parse_glyph_part data, d))
<pippijn> thelema: I asked, because I was hoping there is a function that does exactly this (like a Stream.fold, but non-destructive)
<pippijn> thelema: yes, but then I end up with an enum
<thelema> List.of_enum
<thelema> or just use the enum
<pippijn> maybe later
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<Yoy_> Hello, I've got some troubles with the ocaml Random module. It seem's that I don't have it install, Is'nt it a generic module for ocaml ? Can somebody say me where to download it?
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<adrien> it is indeed generic
<adrien> so the questions are: how do you know you don't have it, and how did you "install" ocaml?
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<Yoy_> mmh.. I've installed the ocaml-devel package I think
<Yoy_> I try to compile a little program where I just use Random.int and I've got the "unbound Random" message
<Yoy_> (thks for responding btw :) )
<adrien> you're probably not calling ocaml/ocamlc/ocamlopt correctly
<adrien> you need to add the module to the command-line call
<adrien> or not
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<adrien> hmmm, no, you don't need to for Random; you should give more details: distribution, compiler invocation, code
* adrien is going to bed; good night
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<Yoy_> I don't think I misuse it, it properly works on an other laptop
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<Yoy_> my system is fedora 16 and Objective Caml version 3.12.0
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