gildor changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | OCaml 3.12.1 http://bit.ly/nNVIVH
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<dropdrive> Hi, I am a longtime Python user who has also dabbled with some Haskell and C. I'm mostly interested in coding for statistical data analysis (I use numpy/scipy extremely heavily) but not so much in UIs, web servers, games, etc. The question is: what introduction to Ocaml would you recommend? Thanks.
<xenocons> statistical data analysis, have you looked at Julia or R? (not to turn you away from ocaml)
<dropdrive> xenocons: Briefly; was wondering what Ocaml had to offer in this respect
<xenocons> im no ocaml expert, and i haven't heard of many if any people using ocaml for statistical analysis
<xenocons> surely someone will be able to answer you though
<xenocons> reason i suggest R and Julia is because they are both statistics DSL's, R being hugely popular for statisticians (you get the benefit of so many libraries), and Julia is up and comming with really lightweigh almost ML like syntax
<xenocons> julia also doesn't have the same perf problems as R afaik (julia uses llvm based jit)
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<gal_bolle> hi all, is there a way to use a specific ocamlc executable (rather than /usr/bin/ocamlc) with oasis?
<sgnb> gal_bolle: prepend its path to $PATH
<gal_bolle> what if it is not called ocamlc?
<gal_bolle> i know i can make a link, but is there a standard way to do it?
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<f[x]> gal_bolle, export PATH=/opt/my-ocaml/bin:$PATH is a "standard" way
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<gal_bolle> this still needs the executable to be named something/ocamlc rather than /usr/local/bin/myocamlc
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<f[x]> gal_bolle, now I see what you mean
<f[x]> with oasis : ./configure --override ocamlc /q/ocamlc
<f[x]> also you can set what ocamlc to use globally via findlib.conf
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<thelema_> hcarty: looks like jeremie released a 4.00 compatible utop. It's up to me to update batteries so ocamlbrew can default to 4.00. Luckily I'm testing the fixed version now; it's passed the tests under 3.12, now testing under 4.00
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<hcarty> thelema_: Wonderful news all around
<thelema_> testing is certainly easier with just one version of ocaml to test under
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<madroach> thelema_: So batteries is really not yet ready for 4.00? I am upgrading OCaml ports on OpenBSD at the moment. Did not get batteries to build yet.
<hcarty> thelema_: I have some idle cores on my system here if they can be of service
<thelema_> madroach: I'm just now releasing v1.5.0 with support for 4.00
<thelema_> hcarty: all done, thanks though
* thelema_ tries using odb under 4.00 to install batteries and utop from testing
<hcarty> thelema_: utop + deps haven't been pushed to testing yet
<hcarty> I'm trying them from unstable now under OCaml 3.12.1
<thelema_> I just pushed utop 1.2 to testing
<thelema_> if its deps need to be updated, I'll find out shortly
<hcarty> thelema_: Looks good here for 3.12.1
<thelema_> hmm, under utop 1.2, I get a problem with toploop in my .ocamlinit
<hcarty> thelema_: But it worked in 1.1?
<thelema_> not sure
<thelema_> trying
<thelema_> (have to install utop under my 3.12 brew)
<hcarty> thelema_: Some of the Toploop stuff may not be required under utop. It does a lot of initialization work on its own.
<thelema_> I wonder if there's findlib hooks to run toploop code on #require
<hcarty> thelema_: Any luck with the 3.12.1 testing?
<thelema_> yes. my ocamlinit works under 3.12.1
<thelema_> Although it's unnecessarily verbose - utop doesn't seem to support turning Sys.interactive = false
<hcarty> thelema_: Does your .ocamlinit work under the vanilla toplevel in 4.00.0?
<thelema_> yes
<hcarty> Drat. I wonder if it's a utop bug or feature conflict.
<diml> thelema_: what is the problem ? maybe i can help
<diml> for Sys.interactive it is because Topfind is initialized before running .ocamlinit
<thelema_> File "/home/thelema/.ocamlinit", line 1:
<thelema_> Error: Reference to undefined global `Toploop'
<thelema_> diml: the sys.interactive problem is under utop 1.1
<thelema_> this toploop problem is under utop 1.2
<thelema_> with ocaml 4.00
<diml> thelema_: is it with the latest ocaml-4.00 tarball ? not a beta version ?
<thelema_> yes, with the latest 4.00
<diml> thelema_: if you still have the build dir of utop, can you check that the the line in _build/_log doing the "expunge" does contain "Toploop" ?
<thelema_> one sec...
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<thelema_> /home/thelema/ocamlbrew/ocaml-4.00.0/lib/ocaml/expunge ... Thread ThreadUnix Topdirs Topfind Unix ...
<diml> OK, this is the problem then
<diml> thelema_: you do have toploop.cmi in `ocamlc -where` ?
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<thelema_> no
<thelema_> it is in +compiler-libs
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<thelema_> I've had to adjust for this in batteries
<diml> it thought toploop.cmi was added again to the stdlib path before 4.00 was released
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<diml> i don't understand why it works for me...
<hcarty> diml: How did you install 4.00.0?
<diml> OK, the version of findlib i am using copies toploop.cmi in the site-lib/findlib directory
<thelema_> cp toplevel/topdirs.cmi $(LIBDIR)
<hcarty> diml: Which version of findlib is that?
<diml> 1.3.2
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<thelema_> 1.3.3 apparently does not.
<diml> i need to patch utop
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<diml> maybe i should also install a non expunged version in case people want to play compiler internals
<diml> now that all the cmi are installed by default
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<thelema_> hmm, 1.3.3 only has changelog for #remove_directory
<thelema_> and "better compatibility with homebrew"
<thelema_> nothing about toploop
<thelema_> hmm... https://godirepo.camlcity.org/wwwsvn/trunk/findlib.files?r1=175&r2=182&p1=trunk/findlib.files&p2=trunk/findlib.files&root=lib-findlib
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<thelema_> actually, more likely this commit in findlib: https://godirepo.camlcity.org/wwwsvn/trunk/src/findlib/Makefile?root=lib-findlib&view=diff&r1=178&r2=177&p1=trunk/src/findlib/Makefile&p2=/trunk/src/findlib/Makefile
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<diml> thelema_: i have updated utop: http://www.dimino.org/utop-1.2.1.tar.gz can you check that it works for you ?
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<thelema_> one sec...
<thelema_> yes, this works
<thelema_> it still has the minor problem of verbosity - does utop do anything with Sys.interactive?
<diml> thelema_: not, it is just that utop uses Topfind, so it is initialized before loading .ocamlinit
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<thelema_> sure, but when my ocamlinit runs, it turns Sys.interactive to false, which should disable extra output from #use "topfind";;
<thelema_> or maybe topfind doesn't work that way and just checks sys.interactive once when it starts up...
<diml> thelema_: #use "topfind" does not reloads findlib*.cma since it is already there
<diml> thelema_: yes, this is the case
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<thelema_> hmm, any ideas on how to quiet findlib in the toplevel?
<thelema_> this is a bit messy, I'd like to hide all the search path stuff (and topfind's directive list too)
<diml> well, i can either add an option to utop, or topfind.ml could be modified
<avsm> same here... for the book examples. needs a findlib patch
<diml> in fact the option won't work
<thelema_> avsm: book examples?
<avsm> realworldocaml.org
<diml> the easiest solution is to make Topfind.real_toploop a reference or to replace it with Sys.interactive
<avsm> we're scripting the examples to make sure they run, but i'm grepping out search paths atm
<thelema_> avsm: makes sense.
<thelema_> avsm: for the book examples, you can set Sys.interactive := false before loading findlib, and it should be quieted, no?
<avsm> thelema_: yep looks like it (am logging stdout/err directly from sh atm, so i'll write a wrapper i guess)
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<hcarty> diml: Would you mind uploading utop 1.2.1 to oasis-db, or would you like one of us to do so?
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<hcarty> thelema_: If utop 1.2.1 fixed your issue then I'd like to push the current testing packages to stable
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<hcarty> thelema_: testing has been pushed to stable; ocamlbrew now installs OCaml 4.00.0 by default
<hcarty> diml, thelema_: Thank you for the quick updates!
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<mcstar> for some reason, i cant increase the stack size of my program
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<thelema_> hcarty: thanks for your help testing our packages.
<thelema_> mcstar: if it's a native program, it uses the OS stack; use ulimit under *nix and ... I dunno what under windows
<mcstar> thelema_: i tried to set it with OCAMLRUNPARAM=l=nM
<adrien> s/dunno what/don't want to know what/
<mcstar> i
<adrien> :-)
<mcstar> i think it worked before
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<mcstar> so, that really, only works with byte compiled programs?
<thelema_> adrien: :)
<thelema_> mcstar: yes, that's only for byte compiled programs
<mcstar> also, im not sure why the overflow happens
<thelema_> mcstar: OCAMLRUNPARAM=b for a backtrace
<mcstar> im building a list of strings tail recursively, and i reverse it
<mcstar> thats where it happens
<mcstar> thelema_: 'b' has no effect, i tried
<thelema_> paste your code - maybe your recursion to build the list of strings isn't as tail recursive as you think
<mcstar> and yes, i compiled with -g
<mcstar> it is
<mcstar> it cant handle a list of >170k items
<mcstar> thelema_: first it would be nice to get the backtrace working
<mcstar> the runtime reads the OCAMLRUNPARAM var, since i cant set the GC to verbose with it
<mcstar> but 'b' has no effect
<thelema_> it's possible for stack overflows to escape the ocaml runtime and not be printed, even with 'b'
<thelema_> this is just a limitation of the ocaml runtime.
<thelema_> since you know where the stack overflow is happenning, you don't need the backtrace
<thelema_> and if you're building a list of 170k items, I'll bet that it's a lack of tail recursivity of some function you're using
<thelema_> Many of the stdlib functions aren't tail recursive, for speed.
<mcstar> yeah
<mcstar> i looked into that
<mcstar> but fold_left and rev is not among them
<mcstar> otherwise there were replacement functions of them in batteries
<mcstar> and there arent
<adrien> usually, you don't want to increase the stack size
<adrien> you should really change your code
<adrien> because if you get close to the limit, you'll be in trouble again soon anyway
<mcstar> this is the code
<mcstar> i believe it happens in get_words, from the printfs
<thelema_> insert isn't tail recursive
<thelema_> and get_words isn't either
<thelema_> because of the exception handling
<mcstar> nooo
<mcstar> now come on
<mcstar> really?
<mcstar> why would the exception handling change that?
<mcstar> insert ofc isnt tail recursive, i builds a recursive structure
<mcstar> but thats not the probllem
<thelema_> because it's possible that the function does something after the call to itself
<thelema_> so the function has to still be around
<mcstar> so, i cant handle exceptions in a tail recursive program?
<mcstar> or i just dont see something obvious?
<thelema_> mcstar: instead of raising exception, return option.
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<mcstar> i dont raise it
<adrien> well, you can handle exceptions; but "where" is the question :-)
<mcstar> i catch it
<mcstar> i dont want option
<adrien> think about it: doing it at each recursive call is not a terribly good idea anyway
<mcstar> adrien: doing what?
<madroach> mcstar: catch it around the input_line.
<thelema_> let rw_ret = try Some (read_words (nn+1) (input_line f::lst)) with _ -> None in
<adrien> mcstar: catching exceptions
<mcstar> madroach: ah
<thelema_> err... not that, have to wrap the input_line
<thelema_> but really, why don't you just use File.lines_of?
<mcstar> ok, ill try that
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<thelema_> let line = try Some (input_line f) with _ -> None in
<mcstar> i want to set a limit on the number of read lines
<thelema_> mcstar: so use Enum.take n to only allow the enum to be expanded n steps
<thelema_> match line with None -> close_in f; List.rev lst | Some l -> read_words (nn+1) (l::lst)
<mcstar> thelema_: i found a lines_of in BatFile
<mcstar> probably i just should use batteries, and not ocamlbrowse
<thelema_> mcstar: if you do 'open Batteries_uni', you can use the Bat* modules without the Bat prefix
<mcstar> i mean, its documentation
<mcstar> thelema_: i know
<thelema_> ok
<mcstar> but i felt like going to standard functions at first
<mcstar> and if i miss something, only then use batteris
<mcstar> but probably i should change my strategy
<thelema_> let get_words wfn n = File.lines_of wfn |> Enum.take n
<mcstar> looks better
<mcstar> almost like haskell
<mcstar> XD
<thelema_> |> List.of_enum, if you want full compatability
<thelema_> *compatibility
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<mcstar> thelema_: great, it works
<mcstar> damn try/with
<mcstar> no, im kidding
<mcstar> but thanks, i wouldnt have catched that error
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<thelema_> Unless you know about exceptions and tail recursion, it's not obvious
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<_andre> is there a way to tell ocamlbuild not to add the .native extension in binaries?
<_andre> and to tell oasis to tell ocamlbuild not to do so?
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<thelema_> I think you could put something in your myocamlbuild to copy the foo.native file to just foo
<_andre> i guess i could rename them from the debian rules file when creating the package then
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<thelema_> _andre: that's another perfrectly good option
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<testcocoon> I have a question regarding load_printer from ocamldebug: is it possible to load a printer which is a wrapper to C code. I want for example print a LLVM value using the LLVM C++ code. I have a wrapper written which permits to call it in ocaml, but I'm not able to write the printer function for ocamldebug.
<testcocoon> I'm getting: Error during code loading: _build/llvmexdbg.byte is not a bytecode object file
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<thelema> testcocoon: it may be complex to do so from ocamldebug, as it'd have to get access to the C code somehow
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<testcocoon> You mean that ocamldebug support only pure ocaml bytecode
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<thelema> I don't see any command-line arguments to give it more libraries
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<thelema> hmm, load printer... may be able to refer to .cma files that depend on C libraries...
<thelema> That said, I really don't know, and have never tried.
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<testcocoon> anyway, it was a nice to have. never mind
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<hcarty> thelema: Do you see a use in having a File.read(_string)/File.write(_string) in Batteries?
<hcarty> thelema: Each one is one or two line function, but still handy to have out of the box.
<hcarty> let read filename = File.with_file_in filename IO.read_all
<mfp> hcarty: I was looking for it the other day and ended up implementing it that way... only to find much later BatPervasives.input_file
<hcarty> mfp: Which version of Batteries?
<mfp> oh, that's the master branch (2.0)
<hcarty> let write filename content = File.with_file_out filename (fun out -> IO.nwrite out content)
<mfp> it's not in 1.4?
<hcarty> mfp: Doesn't appear to be
<thelema> hcarty: sorry, added in 2.0
<hcarty> That's a nice addition in 2.0 :-)
<hcarty> thelema: Not a problem - I'm just glad it's there
<thelema> There's not a lot of work left to finish 2.0 - mostly documentation cleaning
<mfp> thelema: when are you planning to release 2.0?
<hcarty> thelema, mfp: Is there a write_file as well?
<thelema> mfp: when it's done.
<hcarty> I suppose I can check...
<thelema> hcarty: output_file
<mfp> ok :)
<hcarty> thelema: Excellent, thanks
<thelema> mfp: It's been near-done for a while, and just needs some love to be completed.
<thelema> but I've not been able to give it that love.
<thelema> and noone else has stepped up.
<mfp> thelema: I believe 2.0 not depending on camomile anymore is HUGE
<thelema> it's very convenient for me; I do all my development depending on the 2.0 branch
<hcarty> thelema: I expect that I won't have time to contribute much - but is there a pre-2.0 TODO list available?
<thelema> mfp: It does resolve a lot of issues related to resulting executables
<mfp> yes, having to have camomile's data files around was a problem
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<Drakken> thelema I have a question about odb whenever you have time.
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<thelema> Drakken: go ahead
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<Drakken> thelema it seems like there are a lot of cases where to_pkg doesn't find the dependencies.
<thelema> Drakken: true, would you like to work on this?
<Drakken> What's there to work on? Is it supposed to find them but it's incomplete right now?
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<Drakken> (thelema)
<thelema> ... actually, maybe all that's needed is to set "deps=?" to enable some of the auto-dependecy finding that takes place once we have the source dir...
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<thelema> or maybe better to just check for "cli=yes" as well as "deps=?"
<Drakken> thelema if you want to avoid multiple installs, we need to know what the dependency graph looks like.
<Drakken> before installing.
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<thelema> true, but we'll have to download and unpack some things to find this out.
<Drakken> so that's the first priority. get as much dependency info as possible.
<thelema> ok, that would be a good thing to factor out...
<thelema> as you get dep info, you may have to download and unpack more things
<thelema> s/things/packages/
<Drakken> So am I missing anything about how odb gets deps right now?
<Drakken> All I see is get_info.
<thelema> you're aware of L557-559?
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<Drakken> Okay. Why isn't that done in to_pkg L327?
<thelema> because in to_pkg, we only have a package id
<thelema> we haven't downloaded and extracted that package if it's remote and/or tarball
<Drakken> but in the case where id is a directory.
<thelema> we could do it there. We could also download/extract as part of to_pkg
<thelema> and do it there for the rest of the cases
<thelema> but probably better to leave to_pkg as is
<thelema> and have a first pass that extracts tarballs and gathers deps
<thelema> and the second pass actually does the installs
<Drakken> How is the current version supposed to work? What happens to all those packages without dependencies?
<Drakken> right, definitely two passes.
<thelema> same as any package w/o dependencies - an attempt is made to install them; if this fails, the whole process stops
<thelema> for example, lablgtk2 currently has no deps, but it definitely depends on the C gtk libraries
<thelema> note to self: check with gildor about pkg-config deps in oasis
<Drakken> Okay. So definitely some downloading or unpacking needs to be done early.
<thelema> yes. I'm going to modify Dep.is_auto_dep so that it picks up on packages generated from the cli.
<Drakken> What does "cli" stand for?
<thelema> command line interface
<Drakken> Alright, so dep-gathering code might look like the current installation code with the actual installation removed.
<thelema> yes, and if it can produce a properly ordered list of packages to install, the installation should be just `List.iter install package_list`
<thelema> although the current installation code does some hackish garbage with the current directory
<thelema> so you'll have to put the install_dir into the package PL
<Drakken> As long as we can get all the dependencies, it's just a matter of putting them in a graph and sorting it.
<Drakken> If we could get META files for all the packages, I think we could just call the findlib function.
<thelema> well, there's no real "put them in a graph" needed; the package files already form a labeled graph
<thelema> s/package files/package property lists/
<thelema> as far as META files, have a look at Dep.of_metas
<thelema> AFAIK, findlib won't help us read META files until the package is installed
<Drakken> I just meant the dependencies have to be collected together for sorting.
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<thelema> Drakken: do it the best way you can
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<Drakken> Alright :)
<Drakken> thelema I guess that's enough questions for now.
<thelema> I just pushed a patch that extends the meta-dep detection to cli=yes packages
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