flux changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | OCaml 4.00.1 http://bit.ly/UHeZyT | http://www.ocaml.org | Public logs at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/ocaml/
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<pippijn> adrien: you wanted me to tell you when I have problems with lablgtk
<pippijn> adrien: so, I do
<Drup> pippijn: I can answer that !
<Drup> well, maybe
<Drup> I think you're lacking a GMain.init()
<pippijn> I see
<pippijn> I got this example from the website
<pippijn> Drup: yes, that helps
<Drup> also, I'm not sure about Thos GMain.main, I use GMain.main () directly
<Drup> those*
<Drup> GMain.Main.bla*
<pippijn> ok
<pippijn> nice
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<Drup> there should be a big red flashing warning on the lablgtk page "Don't forget the init () function".
<pippijn> yes
<pippijn> and also
<pippijn> the hello world should do it
<Drup> this seems super old
<pippijn> ok
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<caseyjames> Hi, I'm just getting started hands on with ocaml. How can I generate a list where each value equals the last generated value plus a new random generated value?
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<Drup> caseyjames: did you tried to write a first version ?
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<caseyjames> let rand_add length = let rec aux cpt sum acc = if cpt < 0 then acc else let new_sum = (sum + ((Random.int 8) * 480) in aux (cpt-1) new_sum (new_sum::acc) ;;
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<Drup> this seems quite good, you just have a small parenthesis issue
<Drup> and of course, you lack the end, you need to "launch" the internal function
<caseyjames> what parenthesis am I missing?
<Drup> not missing, there is one too much after "new_sum"
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<caseyjames> ahh got it. Is this generally an ok form to use, Are there any glaringly obvious mistakes?
<caseyjames> let rand_add length = let rec aux cpt sum acc = if cpt < 0 then acc else let new_sum = (sum + ((Random.int 8) * 480) in aux (cpt-1) new_sum (new_sum::acc) ;;
<Drup> still missing the end :)
<caseyjames> sorry about that: let rand_add length = let rec aux cpt sum acc = if cpt < 0 then acc else let new_sum = (sum + ((Random.int 8) * 480)) in aux (cpt-1) new_sum (new_sum::acc) in aux length 0 [];; rand_add 12;;
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<Drup> this seems correct
<Drup> don't forget to initialize the seed for the random module
<caseyjames> Cool, Ill look into that. I'm just very happy to have one function working. I've been retyping the 99 problems to get a feel for it, but carrying values over from previous iterations has alluded me
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<itwasntme> i spoke to a friend today in which she advised me to commit suicide
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<ygrek_> itwasntme: don't forget to push
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<gasche> I sent my draft of OCamlbuild documentation online:
<gasche> I'm interested in feedback
<gasche> I plan to send an announce, and request for comments/contributions, to the caml-list, at some point in the short future
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<kerneis> gasche: thanks
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<rks`> gasche: I'm having a look
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<rks`> gasche: manual.md:A simple program , you call « ocamlbuild foo.byte » whereas you should call « ocamlbuild myprog.byte »
<rks`> (you do the same for the .opt)
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<rks`> also, I thought [-use-ocamlfind] was the default in 4.01, has it been reverted?
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<hcarty> rks`: On 4.01.0 a simple test makes it look like there is some kind of default support but it may be a little broken
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<hcarty> rks`: With "open Batteries" in test.ml, "ocamlbuild test.native" fails as expected. "ocamlbuild -package batteries test.native" works but gives a warning saying 'Warning: tag "package" does not expect a parameter, but is used with parameter "batteries"'
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<hcarty> But it's a known bug - http://caml.inria.fr/mantis/view.php?id=5406
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<rks`> (activated by default)
<rks`> ((note: I don't have a 4.01 to try))
<rks`> hcarty: what about "ocamlbuild -tag package(batteries) test.native" ?
<rks`> (I'm not sure that is equivalent to using "-pkg")
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<hcarty> rks`: It apparently isn't. That fails trying to find Batteries.
<hcarty> That's a strange difference
<hcarty> Similarly, adding "true: package(batteries)" to _tags fails
<hcarty> without -use-ocamlfind
<rks`> right
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<hcarty> gasche: Are these differences covered by the existing ocamlbuild bug reports or should I file something new?
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<rks`> hcarty: ping wmeyer
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<hcarty> wmeyer: ping
<hcarty> rks`: Thanks
<rks`> you're very welcome
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<companion_cube> gasche: are you going to use this calculus?
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<adrien> morning
<adrien> pippijn: did you solve your GTK+ issue?
<pippijn> yes
<pippijn> adrien: https://paste.xinu.at/zgu/
<adrien> :)
<adrien> what was the issue?
<pippijn> GMain.init
<adrien> thought so
<adrien> going to work a bit on the web for lablgtk today I guess
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<pippijn> adrien: https://paste.xinu.at/Uug/
<pippijn> now I have 3 of them
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<adrien> of what?
<pippijn> dynparse interfaces
<pippijn> all of them also work in gtk
<adrien> ah, ok
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<whitequark> hi pippijn
<pippijn> hi
<whitequark> have you solved the re2ml gadt puzzle?
<pippijn> no
<pippijn> I've given up
<whitequark> oh
<whitequark> what didn't work?
<pippijn> the derivative operation
<whitequark> can you elaborate and/or post your code? I'm willing to look into it
<pippijn> the problem is
<pippijn> Concat
<pippijn> ok, wait
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<bernardofpc> gasche: http://ocaml.xelpaste.org/8215
<bernardofpc> (this is my first read on anything ocamlbuild, and I have used it for one minuscule project, with no fancy arguments at all)
<pippijn> this should be (pseudocode): if nullable p1 then p1'p2 @ p2' else p1'p2
<pippijn> no, line 175 should be that
<whitequark> щл
<whitequark> *ok
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<whitequark> I don't yet see the problem
<pippijn> ok
<pippijn> derive_pat : char -> 'a pattern -> 'a exprsets
<pippijn> PatConcat : 'a pattern * 'b pattern -> ('a * 'b) pattern
<whitequark> oh.
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<pippijn> so then p1' : 'a exprsets, p2' : 'b exprsets
<whitequark> perhaps you could add a user-specified function 'a -> 'b -> 'c
<whitequark> which combines return values
<whitequark> does that make sense?
<pippijn> uhm
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<pippijn> let me think about that
<pippijn> so, you have the pattern (x:a)(y:3)
<pippijn> where x : char -> int = fun c -> Char.escaped c
<pippijn> eh
<pippijn> -> string
<pippijn> and y : char -> int = fun c -> Char.code '0' - Char.code c
<whitequark> scratch that, I think it doesn't
<whitequark> hmm
<pippijn> now let's first just consider derivatives, not partial derivatives
<pippijn> the derivative of (a3) over 'a' is (3)
<pippijn> (x:a)(y:3) \ a = ε(y:3)
<pippijn> actually: (x:ε)(y:3)
<gasche> bernardofpc: thanks, I'll integrate your comments
<pippijn> so that still works, but then in the next step, x is nullable
<pippijn> because ε accepts the empty word ε
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<adrien> quick poll
<adrien> who has used lablgtk and actually read the README?
<whitequark> pippijn: why is nullability a problem?
<pippijn> ok
<pippijn> in a simplified way:
<pippijn> (a)(ab) \ a = (ab)
<pippijn> (a?)(ab) \ a = (ab) + (b)
<pippijn> a? is nullable, so the derivative of (a?)(ab) has the choice to let (a?) take the a, or skip it (because it's optional) and let (ab) take the a
<pippijn> you can only know which one was correct in the next step
<whitequark> oh, so this is backtracking vs not backtracking
<pippijn> this is not backtracking
<pippijn> it's an NFA
<whitequark> ok
<pippijn> so yeah, instead of backtracking and possibly consuming the same input many times
<pippijn> we consume the input once and stay in every possible branch at the same time
<whitequark> right
<kerneis> rm -rf ~/.opam # frozen during 20 seconds…
<pippijn> bad I/O scheduler
<adrien> pffffft, rm -rf ~/t/yypkg
<kerneis> oh, the machine probably wasn't; it was over ssh
<adrien> frozen for 8 minutes
<adrien> dozens of GCC builds; 3,3M files and 150GB
<kerneis> :-)
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<gasche> companion_cube: no I'm not, I'm just referencing it in case you'd be interested
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<gasche> in fact Stéphane Lengrand has a paper on the design of a new proof assistant based on this
<gasche> which is rather interesting
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<gasche> rks` , hcarty : -use-ocamlfind is not default for 4.01 as far as I know
<gasche> the making-it-default patch was only commited in trunk because avsm had reservations about it
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<gasche> pippijn: I only got the recent glimpses of your discussion of GADTized regexps and derivatives
<rks`> ok
<gasche> you didn't get to what the problem was; is it hard to get a type for the derivation operation?
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<pippijn> gasche: yes
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<adrien> I'm after a markup-like tool that produces html, any idea?
<adrien> not too many deps though
<pippijn> like markdown, restructuredtext, pod, ...?
<adrien> any for which the source is still human-readable
<adrien> (close to a README file actually)
<pippijn> I think markdown and rst are ok
<gasche> adrien: pandoc being a nice tool to manipulate markdown files
<gasche> (plus it's written in Haskell)
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<adrien> I thought about pandoc but it's a pain to get for me
<adrien> it's absolutely huge unfortunatley
<pippijn> I might need something like pandoc
<pippijn> for my website
<adrien> hmm, I think I'm going to use asciidoc
<pippijn> I need a DOM or SAX like interface to the text structure
<pippijn> something that produces a parse tree
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<adrien> asciidoc <3
<pippijn> what do you use to parse it?
<adrien> I use the asciidoc tool itself
<adrien> it's something on top of docbook
<adrien> bit slow but terribly efficient
<pippijn> slow but efficient?
<adrien> for you
<adrien> to
<adrien> in a few minutes
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<pippijn> ok
<pippijn> I think all your text is <pre> though
<pippijn> it's in monospace font
<pippijn> probably because it's all indented
<adrien> right
<adrien> I'm not fully done yet
<adrien> 350 lines
<pippijn> I need something that gives me a parse tree
<adrien> asciidoc gives you xml
<pippijn> because of the way I do source code highlighting
<adrien> I'm actually happy to not have used markdown or something similar
<gasche> bernardofpc: I integrated your remarks, thanks; the one I didn't implement for some readon are http://ocaml.xelpaste.org/8217
<gasche> adrien: why?
<adrien> even though I'm only starting and they would have been suitable, I guess they would have become bad after a while
<adrien> docbook (or actually asciidoc here) might be a bit heavier but they're also more future-proof
<gasche> hm
<gasche> well once your text is in markdown-like syntax it's easy to convert into HTML and mostly everything from there
<gasche> I suspect pandoc may even have a markdown->LaTeX tool
<adrien> you still need to have a table of contents, need to handle multiple pages and links between them, ...
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<gasche> (pandoc does handle table of contents, but I suspect for cross-page links you'd directly refer to produced URLs, which break the abstraction for non-web documents)
<hcarty> gasche: Thank you for the clarification on ocamlbuild. It looks like something may have slipped through into 4.01.0, maybe a partial commit somewhere.
<adrien> pippijn: http://notk.org/~adrien/README.html ; better?
<gasche> I'm not sure what you felt was wrong in the behavior you reported, can you precisely quote the problem?
<gasche> the fact that without -use-ocamlfind the error message is rubbish (when it fails) is known
<gasche> if I understand correctly, your surprise is that sometimes it still works without -use-ocamlfind; I'd expect that to be a chance hit of the pre-ocamlfind-plugin code that, I think, works with -pkg or -package command-line option
<pippijn> adrien: much
<gasche> (but I don't know much about how and when it works; I've mostly been interested in deprecating it as an interface users see, except maybe reusing some of the code for performance optimization purposes)
<gasche> also there is the fact that the ocaml compiler will not complain if an "open Foo" that is not actually used at runtime is not followed by actually linking the module (finding the .cmi may be enough); but I don't think that was the issue
<adrien> I'm not done yet; still many small things to fix and generally-speaking, there are too many things in that file
<gasche> adrien: how are your slides for OUPS going?
<gasche> and did you actually notify the OUPS organizers that you wanted to talk?
<adrien> haven't had much time lately and rks` asked me to wait until october so that we would be back
<adrien> agreed
<adrien> and that'll give me time to get some feedback
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<rks`> haha adrien
<rks`> that's really low.
<wmeyer> hi rks` :-)
<wmeyer> hi adrien & gasche
<wmeyer> hi pippijn
<rks`> hello
<pippijn> hi wmeyer
<adrien> rks`: :o
<adrien> hi wmeyer
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<pippijn> wmeyer: did you see the cpapa-online?
<wmeyer> the frontend in a browser, some time ago
<pippijn> yesterday?
<pippijn> because I added it yesterday
<wmeyer> yes, but i have to admit i was not sure if I did after the update, sorry
<wmeyer> thanks
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<pippijn> wmeyer: it's good to have a js_of_ocaml'd version of things, because I think it gets more heavily scrutinised then
<wmeyer> looks pretty good, thanks, I am not sure about the differences
<pippijn> the difference to what?
<wmeyer> the previous iteration
<pippijn> when did you see that?
<wmeyer> I'd like to kept in the loop
<wmeyer> months ago
<pippijn> no
<wmeyer> was that RL thing
<pippijn> this was never online
<pippijn> until yesterday
<pippijn> that's the C parser
<pippijn> the new one is the C++ parser
<pippijn> wmeyer: enter this in the C++ one: https://paste.xinu.at/cBHCRl/
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<pippijn> or this: a<b<b<b<b<b<b<b<b > > > > > > > > a;
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<companion_cube> gasche: I've been talking with one of the authors, actually ^^
<companion_cube> but thanks
<gasche> ttamttam: thanks for your patches; one indeed makes stupid mistakes when editing the same document multiple times...
<rks`> do you guys have any idea why caml replaces "." by "__" when generating asm symbols?
<adrien> . is not (always) valid in names?
<rks`> "." seems to be allowed in symbols
<gasche> because . is not a valid symbol name on all platforms?
<rks`> yeah I thought about it
<pippijn> I wonder
<adrien> try on windows
<adrien> has to be one of the most retarded platforms :-)
<pippijn> can you make a module named Foo__Bar?
<adrien> (I meant, using msvc)
<rks`> pippijn: you can do "foo__bar__lol" at least
<pippijn> and would it potentially collide with Foo.Bar?
<rks`> and then writing a "demangle" function for gdb is really fun
<rks`> thing is adrien
<adrien> well, collisions will pretty much always happen unless you go full C++ mangling
<adrien> still way better than C which will give conflicts for "init" :P
<rks`> I believe the asm generated in the same on both windows and unix
<rks`> and the linker is the same in both cases as well
<rks`> isn't it?
<adrien> the assembler is not the same
<adrien> on windows with GCC, yes
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<adrien> on windows with MSVC, well, it's msvc
<rks`> right
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<pippijn> hm
<pippijn> I don't think collisions can happen
<pippijn> inner modules are flattened
<rks`> pippijn: try using pack.
<pippijn> hm, yes, maybe pack
<pippijn> but then
<pippijn> how can you get collisions?
<wmeyer> great work pippijn
<pippijn> because I have one pack Bar with Foo in it
<pippijn> and then I need a Bar.Foo module, but that's flattened
<pippijn> oh wait, I need a Bar__Foo module
<wmeyer> I am waiting until the treematch tree can be visualised
* pippijn tries
<pippijn> wmeyer: waiting?
<pippijn> I'm not going to do that :)
<wmeyer> I think because symbols with dot are local
<wmeyer> yes waiting :P because have no time to write the code
<wmeyer> but maybe I am wrong
<rks`> ok adrien, that was it
<rks`> when using msvc masm is generated
<adrien> in doubt
<pippijn> yes, conflicts
<adrien> blame microsoft :P
<rks`> and dots are not allowed in symbol names
<rks`> yes pippijn you want to have Foo__Bar (say foo__Bar.ml) and the a pack foo containing a module Bar
<gasche> when the linker is concerned, "blame Apple" also works fairly well
<adrien> wmeyer: have time to fix your svn? :D
<wmeyer> adrien: promise to do it today in the evening? :-) , i have to do my daytime job now!
<adrien> no worry :D
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<gasche> I got a syntax error because I named a variable "mod"
<gasche> we need to special-case those
<wmeyer> adrien: yeah, I want to commit these patches :-) I really want them in.
<pippijn> it's an unlikely situation anyway
<pippijn> I've never encountered it, but it can be produced
<pippijn> nobody puts __ in their module name :)
<wmeyer> pippijn: why not
<wmeyer> it might be a second level delimiter
<pippijn> ok
<wmeyer> you can have: FOO__Bar_One_Two
<wmeyer> so it will be mangled most likely
<pippijn> but you'll rarely link that with a pack "FOO" containing module Bar_One_Two
<wmeyer> encoded in such way it can be reproduced, avoiding collisions
<wmeyer> pippijn: right, only if pack where a good engineering solution
<pippijn> pack hack
<wmeyer> yes, it's a hack
<wmeyer> but I have to admit, that these kind of hacks rarely happen in OCaml :-)
<rks`> new reason why core(_kernel) cannot be used on windows, « camlCore_kernel__Std_kernel__Array__ » takes 36 chars, nasm ignores all chars after the 31st
<wmeyer> :D
<wmeyer> the names of the functions in C++ can have even 1KB length of characters
<rks`> s/nasm/masm/
<wmeyer> If i was MS i'd ignore it too
<wmeyer> you know that Excel cell can't exceed 1KB
<wmeyer> probably it;s the same data type, or shared constant among their headers in the codebase
<wmeyer> oh sorry you mean 36 characters, that's bad
<wmeyer> OK, I GTG
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<adrien> http://notk.org/~adrien/README.html <- lablgtk's README evolving into an actual webpage
<adrien> comments welcome
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<adrien> it's still quite early
<adrien> if there's anything you'd like to see added or anything you find confusing, tell me
<adrien> pippijn: btw, how did you find out that you were missing the GTK+ init last night?
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<Drup> I told him :)
<adrien> you recognized the error message?
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<Drup> no, I looked at the code and didn't see any GMain.init()
<adrien> ok, thanks
<adrien> hmm, also, anyone has a smartphone? or any device with a small and high-dpi screen? is the width of this webpage fine http://lablgtk.forge.ocamlcore.org/ ?
<Drup> adrien you should turn this into an ocamldoc page to autogenerate link to the relevant documentation and have ocaml coloring and all
<rks`> ha ha.
<Drup> adrien : tbh, an user mostly don't care about the files in the distributed archive. the index of the exported module is more relevant.
<adrien> still not sure how to improve that: I want to have this page and the README file in the source archive be the same
<adrien> (at least, have the same content)
<adrien> but it's pretty certain this section is going to go down in the page
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<Drup> adrien also, lablgtk is the textbook example of library which really need simple code snippets to get you started by (at first) stupidly copy paste things
<Drup> (I'm not saying this should be in the readme, just expressing opinions)
<rks`> second that
<adrien> I plan to take on the tutorial again
<adrien> but later
<adrien> actually I need to re-read it
<adrien> if it loads...
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<adrien> but it's quite difficult: signals have become natural to me; but what about beginners?
<adrien> anyway, I'll try to 10-minutes intro
<Drup> I don't really use lablgtk (by lack of use case, not by dislike ;) so I will probably be able to tell you if something is not understandable
<adrien> :)
<adrien> I should also keep in mind that ocaml and also lablgtk are used to teach freshmen
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<adrien> the merge from 4.01 to trunk must have hurt :P
<rks`> hm?
<adrien> I'm sure I've caused a lot of conflicts with my changes to the build system :P
<adrien> but it was deserved! Damien Doligez had caused me many conflicts first!
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<skunkwerks> I'm just starting with ocaml via the almost-released Real World OCaml book, which advises me to install 4.1.0, and I can see a -rc.1 tag in git/svn now.
<skunkwerks> Is there some clever way for me to get from 4.00.1 which I have via OSX `brew install objective-caml opam` to 4.1.0-rc1 ?
<skunkwerks> ooh http://caml.inria.fr/pub/distrib/ocaml-4.01/ perhaps is a good place to start.
<Drup> skunkwerks: beware that 4.01.0 is indeed in beta. Final and quite stable beta, but still beta.
<skunkwerks> Drup: sure. I thought I read somewhere there's some smart way to upgrade between versions. not sure.
<Drup> not afaik, you can use an old ocaml version to install opam and use it to install new versions easily, but that's all (and that's just convenient, not necessary)
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<hcarty> gasche: Your 'if I understand correctly' is correct
<skunkwerks> drup avsm if anybody else asks about how to do this in future, you can point them towards https://github.com/mxcl/homebrew/pull/22343.diff for an easy fix
<Drup> skunkwerks: how, that's specific homebrew stuff, I'm not a mac user, sorry ;)
<skunkwerks> Drup: no worries! maybe it helps somebody else in future,
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<pippijn> hi
<pippijn> I'm trying to install a library with ocamlfind, but it says: ocamlfind: /usr/lib/ocaml/ld.conf: Permission denied
<pippijn> although I set the destdir to something not /usr/lib/..
<troydm> it's probably trying to add ld path to ocaml's ld config fiel
<troydm> well u can try running it with sudo
<pippijn> maybe I need to add -ldconf
<pippijn> troydm: no I can't
<pippijn> ah, -ldconf ignore
<pippijn> ok, if I first create a stublibs directory, it works fine
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<wmeyer> hi all
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<wmeyer> is there any SVG reader?
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<pippijn> hi wmeyer
<Drup> wmeyer: you can probable hack up an svg reader quite quickly using cairo and lablgtk
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<wmeyer> Drup: yes, I have thought about it
<Drup> wmeyer: on the cairo side, the interface is quite simple, see here : http://cairo.forge.ocamlcore.org/API/Cairo.SVG.html
<Drup> hum, this is the writing part only
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<Drup> btw wmeyer, didn't you say you were going to reopen my bug for "documentation" purposes :]
<Drup> well, not documentation, more like error messages
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