flux changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | OCaml 4.00.1 http://bit.ly/UHeZyT | http://www.ocaml.org | Public logs at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/ocaml/
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<jyeo> hi guys i need some help with camlp4
<jyeo> is there any way to get type information when I am generating code in camlp4?
<Drup1> no
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<Drup> jyeo: at least, not strictly within camlp4, you will need to do stuff with compiler-libs
<jyeo> compiler-libs?
<jyeo> how do i get that?
<jyeo> Drup: ^
<Drup> it should be included in the standard ocaml distribution
<Drup> but afaik, there is no real documentation except "look at the code"
<jyeo> okay. thanks Drup
<jyeo> what about reflection in ocaml?
<jyeo> can I get information about source code at run time?
<Drup> not with regular ocaml
<Drup> there are various experimentations around this concept, what do you want to do exactly ?
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<ttamttam> Tu peux aussi envoyer l’invit. au Beslon ?
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* adrien looks at ttamttam and smiles
* mrvn versteht nur Bahnhof.
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<ttamttam> adrien: did you read what is written on the wall ?
<ttamttam> OK. Understood.
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<adrien_oww> :P
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<adrien_oww> anyone knows how to get parallelization from ocamlbuild?
<adrien_oww> I mean, what to do, what to avoid doing?
<ggole> Is there more to it than -j?
<adrien_oww> well, -j brings almost nothing
<adrien_oww> usually
<adrien_oww> it enables it
<adrien_oww> but if the rules are too constraining, it won't be able to parallelize anything
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<ygrek_> looks like it is not possible to specify several archive urls in opam package url file ?
<ygrek_> I thought there is mirror support
<ygrek_> and btw does opam really verify checksums?
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<bernardofpc> ggole: found out for yesterday's quadratic behaviour
<bernardofpc> (of the GC)
<bernardofpc> what happened is that both the size of the lists that got copied to the major heap got bigger with n
<bernardofpc> and the number of lists that got copied also increased
<bernardofpc> (with 10000 elements, 1 list among 6-7 got GC-ed, while with 60000, almost every one got GCed)
<bernardofpc> after going after the 60000, it "rebecame"linear, but with a different slope
<bernardofpc> so the minor heap worked as a "cache level", with quadratic behaviour for small numbers, and then linearly afterwards (with the slopes coinciding)
<bernardofpc> (like, x² from 0->1, then 2x from 1 -> infty)
<ggole> Hmm
<ggole> I guess that's not too likely in 'real' programs
<ggole> Interesting behaviour though
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<bernardofpc> well, my wild guess is that real programs always behave worse than simple benchmarks ;-)
<bernardofpc> but what
<bernardofpc> I find puzzling is that it takes much more time for GC to collect things than for those things to be created
<bernardofpc> (collect = promote then destroy)
<bernardofpc> how the GC works in freeing memory from the major heap ? has it got a "list of heads" to walk ?
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<ggole> I've never look at major collections
<ggole> *looked
<ggole> I know they are considerably more expensive than minor collections though
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<bernardofpc> http://ocaml.org/tutorials/garbage_collection.html -> the part where it says that "and about another 128K consisted of large objects which would have been allocated directly onto the major heap" is a bit contradictory to http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/manual-ocaml/libref/Gc.html
<bernardofpc> (that says that "major_words" includes promoted)
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<hcarty> avsm: http://vpaste.net/adQL8 -- This minimal cohttp+lwt server is slow (~1 second) to respond to POST requests. Is that normal/expected? HEAD and GET requests are quick (time says 0.008 seconds).
<hcarty> avsm: I'm testing with 'time curl -i -F "hi=" http://127.0.0.1:8080/' and 'time curl -i http://127.0.0.1:8080/'
<hcarty> avsm: Using 4.01.0rc1 and cohttp 0.9.10 from opam
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<companion_cube> this looks nice
<companion_cube> I don't know nothing about cohttp, but it looks simple to use
<hcarty> companion_cube: That's my initial impression but I just started playing with it
<companion_cube> does it also do client?
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<companion_cube> (or CGI)
<sgnb> I would say cohttp is at fault since I've seen competitive benchmarks about ocsigen
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<hcarty> companion_cube: It does have a client library, not sure about CGI.
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<hcarty> sgnb: Thanks for the link. I should look at ocsigen too. I am/was looking at cohttp first since it's relatively light but ocsigen does have a lot of useful extras.
<hcarty> sgnb: It sounds like those benchmarks are against GET requests though. That paste's GET handling seems nice and quick. The slow POST is what currently concerns me with cohttp.
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<Drup> gasche: are you there ?
<adrien_oww> try this: gasche, gasche, gasche!
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<hcarty> Is there an equivalent to open! in OCaml 4.01 when using the Module.( ... ) syntax?
<ggole> What do you mean?
<def-lkb> hcarty: no
<def-lkb> but you can do a local let open! … in ()
<flux> what's "open!"?
<Drup> flux: there is a new warning about shadowing in 4.01, I suppose it's the new construction to discard the warning.
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<flux> I wonder if this shall lead to let! as well.. and module!, type!, etc ;-)
<ggole> OCaml code could become much more excitable.
<def-lkb> flux: I don't know where this led, but this come from object inheritance
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<flux> ah, I forgot that they used ! already
<Drup> def-lkb: you mean class inheritance right ?
<def-lkb> Drup: pff, same sh*t
<Drup> def-lkb: not really :D
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<hcarty> def-lkb: You can, but the whole thing would need to be wrapped in '( ... )' or 'begin ... end' which kills the concision
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<hcarty> def-lkb: In order to limit the scope of the open that is
<def-lkb> hcarty: yes, … it's just a compromise
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<hcarty> I like the warning but without some kind of M.!( ) or similar support it's too noisy to use in my code.
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<hcarty> I expect a ppx could fix that nicely
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<def-lkb> hcarty: it may be worth opening a bug report
<chris2> "compiling Merlin with ocp-build takes only 4s on a quad-core while ocamlbuild needs 13s in similar conditions and with the same parallelisation settings."
<chris2> but i dont need to write a new configuration file for ocamlbuild?
<hcarty> def-lkb: I asked about M.() on the original bug report (http://caml.inria.fr/mantis/view.php?id=5980). I'll see what comes from that first.
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<hcarty> It's (hopefully) too late for new syntax to make it into 4.01.0
<hcarty> Is there a way to disable a warning by number in _tags?
<hcarty> ocamlbuild -documentation makes it look like there isn't but I thought I saw it in a project at one point
<hcarty> warn_A-44 seems to do what I want, sorry for the noise.
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<hcarty> avsm: Regarding my cohttp question - if I use 'time curl -i -X POST -d "a" http://127.0.0.1:8080/' then the POST time is effectively the same as GET
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<kerneis> hcarty: oh this is good news
<kerneis> we wondered about it the other day
<kerneis> gasche: if you work on ocamlbuild's doc, it should probably be mentionned somewhere
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<dsheets> when is it allowed to miss a "url" file in an opam package metadata?
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<dsheets> besides conf-* and base-* packages, the only packages that lack a 'url' file in my opam-repository are 'ocp-build' packages
<dsheets> ocp-build is not building for me because "./configure: file not found" and indeed the kept build directory shows nothing
<dsheets> is ocp-build somehow special?
<dsheets> somehow, I can build ocp-build with a clean opam
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<gour> hello
<gour> just read http://www.ocamlpro.com/blog/2013/09/04/monthly-08.html...interesting stuff happening in ocaml community
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<gour> appearance of wxocaml is encouraging, but i wonder if there is any work on qt bindings?
<gour> wx development is slow and state of gtk is also not thrilling (see e.g. http://lwn.net/Articles/562856/ & http://www.superlectures.com/guadec2013/gtk-to-infinity-and-beyond)
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<Drup> gour: there is a lablqt
<gour> Drup: it's alive project?
<Drup> yes
<Drup> gour: ping Kakadu :)
<Kakadu> рун
<Kakadu> hey
<gour> when i was investigating possibility to use ocaml, i was told that lablgtk is practically the only gui option
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<Kakadu> It seems I remember you
<gour> and that led me to explore Ada as option, although i tried haskell in the past and considered f#
<Kakadu> You wanted some stars vizualization
<gour> yeah, rendering planets positions...(vedic astrology)
<gour> ada has qt bindings, but no plan for qt5...
<gour> Kakadu: github page says: "I have paused my work with it..." ?
<Kakadu> It's about QtGui
<Kakadu> s/QtGui/QtWidgets/
<Kakadu> Can somebody say something encouraging?
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<gour> "Multi-runtime OCaml" is supposed to remove some of the long standing complaints against ocaml, multi-core support?
<Drup> gour: yes, in a quite interesting way
<flux> I think it's akin to the erlang approach
<gour> hmm..sounds very good
<whitequark> so it's like forking, but without actual *nix forking
<flux> I would say that it'll be great, but 'real' multi-core threads would still give some performance edge
<whitequark> honestly there's a rather marginal difference between MVM and, well, just multi-processing
<flux> NVM?
<gour> Kakadu: i believe qt is the recommended route for gui today instead of gkt/wx...gtk dev on guadec said gtk is meant for 'small apps only' and it's anyway, more or less, just for linux
<whitequark> MVM. multi-vm
<flux> ah :)
<whitequark> sorry, it's a Ruby term for that.
<Drup> gour: gtk is working on windows, not "well", but it's working
<whitequark> you can cut down on serialization and deserialization, but that's about it
<Kakadu> Write something in OCaml+Qt than
<Kakadu> I'm tired
<gour> Drup: there is almost no support for it...even no binaries and the whole gtk teams counts less than dozen...
<Kakadu> It's very said to wait for interview you will fail
<Drup> gour: agreed, I did say "not well" :)
<gour> Kakadu: tired for working on lablqt or due to interview?
<Kakadu> I understanded that nobody need me lablqt
<gour> Drup: i do not know about any project moving from qt to gtk
<Kakadu> Also I trying to find normal job and it sucks
<Kakadu> Sometimes I want never met OCaml
<gour> Kakadu: that's sad...wonder why new work is targetting wxocaml when wx can't release 3.0 for >5yrs or so
<gour> Kakadu: why?
<Drup> Kakadu: it's like batteries, you don't know them, but I'm sure there are some lablqt users around there :D
<Kakadu> Because it's really easier to be stupid java fanboy and beelive that lambdas are some shit invented by egg-headed scientists and unusable in real life
<Kakadu> I spenf half a time of summer in OCaml-related internship project
<Kakadu> spend*
<Drup> gour: you can try to hurt adrien to make him work faster on his EFL bindings.
<Kakadu> but nobody cares about what internship projects are
<Kakadu> guys are writing in Java and want Java-jerks
<Kakadu> I really don't understand how they are writing compiler in Java
<bernardofpc> well, there's a theory about that
<Kakadu> Probably it was better to take Scala related project for internship
<bernardofpc> using Java programmers makes the enterprise less dependent on the people, because they are replaceable
<bernardofpc> so this way they can hire juniors all the time and never pay senior prog salaries
<bernardofpc> and their code sorta works
<Drup> and have crapy software
<bernardofpc> the thing is that an army of crappy coders can code more "stuff" than 1 enlightened person
<bernardofpc> sure, whatever that person does might remain forever a good program
<bernardofpc> whereas this will not be true for all the rest
<bernardofpc> but think about it
<technomancy> it's getting better; in the last decade it was nearly impossible to find FP jobs outside universities
<Kakadu> technomancy: in what country>
<Kakadu> ?
<bernardofpc> in the same way people paid engineers to make products that became obsolete *and* broke faster (such as light bulbs and women socks)
<technomancy> Kakadu: anywhere afaik
<bernardofpc> they pay programmers to make crappy programs so that they can forever sell "the next version"
<gour> Drup: i prefer Qt bindings over EFL
<Kakadu> bernardofpc: It is very deep thoought
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<skunkwerks> bernardofpc: you sound somewhat cynical :-)
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<gour> how is ocaml's support on freebsd?
<gour> hmm..ocaml-3.12...that's a bit old
<gour> well, not really, same as debian sid
<technomancy> it's new enough to bootstrap a newer version with opam =)
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<gour> ocp-build is just build tool, no packaging involved?
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<jpdeplaix> gour: mmh if I remember well, packaging is involved.
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<gour> jpdeplaix: does it mean it will make opam obsolete in the future?
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<gour> ocp-build has 'uninstall' target which is, afaik, still missing in haskell's cabal...impressive :-)
<jpdeplaix> gour: no, I mean by packaging, the install/uninstall primitives. Like the vision of packaging in OASIS
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<gour> jpdeplaix: so, ocp-build is becoming THE build-system and OPAM package manager tool for ocaml projects?
<jpdeplaix> for OPAM yes. But IMHO, ocp-build is not ready yet. For the moment, I prefer the more standard ocamlbuild.
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<Drup> gour: there is not only install/uninstall for packaging in oasis, but also a lot of metadatas.
<gour> Drup: i was thinking about (un)install in ocp-build...however, not familiar with neither ocp-build nor oasis...in recent time i was mostly focused to deploy ada for my project, but considering i'm still busy with web stuff, i haven't started yet and devlopment within ocaml community looks good, although i'd be happier to see more support for qt than wx bindings
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<pippijn> hi
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