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<aantron>
Drup, i was thinking of having markup.ml parse DTD in the future. could that be somehow useful for generating modules and type definitions?
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<aantron>
i am not familiar with how tyxml encodes DTDs and what it encodes from them
<Drup>
we don't use dtd
<Drup>
and we don't handle them
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<Drup>
there is an issue on the subject, but I'm not interested in working on the subject, and nobody else seems.
<Drup>
(and frankly, I have yet to see a use of dtd in the wild)
<aantron>
what i meant is, your types implicitly constrain construction. perhaps to some extent, for xml languages other than svg and xhtml, we could generate modules with types and values that implicitly encode some constraints of any given DTD
<aantron>
fair enough
<aantron>
i havent either :)
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<Drup>
I don't know the dtd spec enough to know if it's encodable in ocaml's typesystem
<Drup>
Given the little I know about it, I highly doubt it
<Drup>
That still would be a huuuge work
<Drup>
(The encoding of the html spec is highly non trivial)
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<Drup>
in theory, yes, in practice, it's a modified version of a 4 years old ocaml version ^^
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<pgiarrusso>
yeah, I feared so (hence “academically”). But they certainly looked into “what type system we need for doing XML right”, so their papers might help understand the issue, for theoretically-inclined.
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<t4nk075>
Hello everyone I have a quick question: if a function is defined with two parameters and later used with just one param, it means the other param is implicitly curried, correct?
<aantron>
the function with two parameters is what is "curried", meaning that applying it to only one argument gives you another function expecting the second argument
<aantron>
so yes
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<icicled>
is there any way to tell merlin to ignore ppx_lwt syntax?
<icicled>
or must I use the p4 extension?
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<Drup>
ignore ?
<Drup>
you mean, handle ? just add "PKG ppx.lwt" to your .merlin
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<icicled>
ah
<icicled>
I also needed EXT lwt
<icicled>
thanks!
<Drup>
lwt.ppx*
<Drup>
You don't need EXT lwt with the ppx
<Drup>
that's for the camlp4 version only
<icicled>
if I don't put that line it shows "Syntax error inside `try', expecting <attr_id>"
<icicled>
for `try%lwt`
<icicled>
with both lines it works
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<icicled>
removed `EXT lwt` & did merlin-restart - that fixed it
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<seangrove>
Just double checking (I don't see anything from google/github/opam), anyone know of a liquid templating parser in ocaml?
<def`>
I cannot help, but out of curiosity, what is liquid templating?
<seangrove>
Very popular syntax used for making templates
<seangrove>
Originated in ruby-land from Spotify, I think
<seangrove>
Err, Shopify, rather
<seangrove>
I'll work on one with menhir, should be a good learning experience
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<julien_t>
Hi there !
<julien_t>
I have a problem with week types and I can't figure out how to solve it :/
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<julien_t>
Is there a way to force a weak type to be strongly polymorphe using Obj.magic ?
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<julien_t>
if i write let x : ( 'a ->unit ) = Obj.magic (e) where a is type ('_a -> unit) then x still has the type '_a -> unit. I expected that Obj.magic would force it to the polymorphic form
<zozozo>
julien_t: if you use Obj.magic, and it is still not enough, I think there is something wrong somewhere, :p
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<julien_t>
indeed, there must be something wrong .... somewhere :p
<julien_t>
I will try to produce a minimal example ...
<Algebr>
How can I put a constraint in opam file that the system must be 64 bit
<julien_t>
And here is a very minmal example
<julien_t>
let res : ('a -> int )= Obj.magic(fun x -> 1)
<julien_t>
res has here the type '_a -> int
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<julien_t>
It's weird
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<orbitz>
Does opam have a way to distinguish between a build-time dep and a runtime-dep?
<aantron>
yes, with the {build} constraint
<orbitz>
or rather, I have a dep that is required to build the package but it is not required after taht.
<orbitz>
Ok, thanks
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<zozozo>
julien_t: why not just do "let res x = 1" ?
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<julien_t>
zozozo, this is a very minimal example, in my real code there is much more than (fun x -> 1), there are expression where I have to use partial applications (due to a library I use)
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<octachron>
julien_t, Obj.magic is still a function, so it cannot go away with the value restriction
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<sspi>
I'm trying to move from ocamlbuild to ocamlc, because I want try ocaml + effects
<sspi>
however I get the error: Error: Error while linking build/Type_helper.cmo: Reference to undefined global `Env'
<sspi>
anyone got any tips on how to solve this?
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<edwin>
are you still using ocamlfind though? make sure you have all the -package and -linkpkg flags
<def`>
octachron: humm, Indon't thinknthe value restriction affect Obj.magic
<edwin>
and that you pass all the .cm* files needed for linking
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<julien_t>
is there a way to shortcut the type system on this restriction ?
<edwin>
if you used ocamlbuild before look at _build/_log, it has all the ocamlc invocations with the right flags and files, although what is about ocaml+effects that prevents you from using ocamlbuild?
<sspi>
edwin: it fails on camlp4 for me
<def`>
octachron: rhs of the arrow is unconstrained and obviously covariant, the typer will generalize "'b", and you are free to constrain with a generalized type scheme
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<sspi>
julien_t: thanks I'll try that :)
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<def`>
in two steps
<julien_t>
sspi, my question was totally unrelated to your discussion.
<octachron>
def`, if I am not mistaken, the typer will generalize 'b, but it is still in expansive mode, so it will only generalize type parameters within 'b in covariant position
<def`>
julien_t: let res = Obj.magic (fun _ -> 1)
<sspi>
julien_t: ah crap, that should have been edwin :) sorry!
<def`>
julien_t: let res : 'a -> int = res
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<def`>
octachron: yes, yes, hence the two steps. not elegant but it works
<julien_t>
ok sspi, no pbm, I just wanted to be sure ;)
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<julien_t>
thanks def` , I'll try this
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<Algebr>
the way that opam makes decisions about packages based on their naming is incredibly frustrating when you don't exactly know it.
<Algebr>
ie, - and numbers in path name
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<Algebr>
but I guess its okay since other package managers, like nix, do somethign similar.
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<def`>
naming?
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<Algebr>
def`: like the package path in an opam repository
<def`>
what kind of decision it takes based on the path?!
<def`>
that doesn't sound like a good idea
<sspi>
ocaml + effects working \o/
<Algebr>
def`: like I couldn't do in the opam-repository/packages/ios-3.2,
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<Algebr>
Drup: the opam repository makes assumptions it seems about the naming of a package based off of its name
<Algebr>
like having a number after a . in the package name apparently instantly versions it instead of saying that the number is part of the packge name itself
<Drup>
well, it doesn't really make assumption, the name of a package is defined has the name of the first directory after package/
<Drup>
(iirc)
<Drup>
Algebr: Ah, yes, that's how it's specified
<Algebr>
yea, I didn't know that, heh. some odd debugging.
<Drup>
You never looked at how opam-repository is organized ?
<Algebr>
of course I have, but i didn't realize that /package/thing thing couldn't have a digit as part of its name
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<sspi>
Drup: thanks
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<julien_t>
Doe's someone know if opam builds the documentation of ocaml, and if yes, where does it stoer it ?
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<Drup>
some package provide doc build instruction, which are used when you give the -d option to opam install
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<Drup>
it's not very common, unfortunatly
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<Drup>
as to "where ?", "opam config var <package>:doc"
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<julien_t>
I was thinking of the documentation of ocaml, not of packages
<julien_t>
but it's interesting to know about this -d option
<icicled>
julien_t: the docs for ocaml should be avilable if you're using opam
<icicled>
man pages are generated - I didn't even know till I inspected the .opam folder
<icicled>
useful to have - also there is a single text file you can download for the core language which has docs for all the modules as well - http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/manual-ocaml/ (at the top)
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<julien_t>
icicled, I am looking for the html manual of but can't find it in the .opam directory
<icicled>
ah ok I don't think that one is built
<icicled>
you can grab a zip of the html docs available online from the same url
<icicled>
"bundle of HTML files"
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<julien_t>
I like to have it on my computer as I often work offline, when I was working without opam, I had the doc compiled each time I built a new ocaml version
<julien_t>
sure I could download it ... it's just that I was wondering if opam could have already done it for me :p
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<Drup>
julien_t: I think you should report it, it could be done
<Drup>
(on opam repository)
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<julien_t>
Ok, I put this in my todo list ...
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<orbifx>
What functions does Lwt provide for blocking functions?
<Drup>
icicled: witch event look are you integrating with ?
<Drup>
loop*
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<mfp>
orbifx, icicled: take a look at Lwt_unix.make_notification
<icicled>
Drup: I'm using the postgresql package & the notifies feature - it sits there listening while using select and then consumes data on the socket
<icicled>
and then should run my code & send data on lwt stream (my plan)
<icicled>
I'm not sure if that is the right way to do it
<orbifx>
mfp: mfp not sure if that helps my problem.
<Drup>
icicled: what don't you just use pgocaml ? it's Lwt-compatible
<orbifx>
mrvn: are you working on rewriting moc so that it's not needed for binding with ocaml?
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<icicled>
Drup: I need the postgresql notifications feature which I don't think pgocaml has
<mfp>
orbifx: using Lwt_unix.make_notification you can e.g. have events from another event loop (running in a different thread) injected into a Lwt_stream, wasn't that what you were looking for?
<mrvn>
orbifx: not realy. I'm writing bindings for QT widgets directly. no moc at all.
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<icicled>
rather postgresql's listen/notify feature
<icicled>
mfp: that would be me
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<mfp>
then the above should do
<icicled>
what's the purpose of a queue + stream - why not just the stream?
<icicled>
e.g. non-lwt loop gets the pusher function & the lwt one includes a lwt thread that reads from the stream
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<orbifx>
mrvn: looking forward to your results. When will you have something?
<orbifx>
mfp: I'm looking into how to have two asynchronous threads.
<mrvn>
orbifx: you can already open a window.
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<mrvn>
orbifx: next up is making callback work
<mfp>
icicled: the non-lwt loop in another thread cannot just push into the stream, since that would wake up the sleepers in the current (non-Lwt) thread
<mfp>
icicled: the queue + stream + notification dance is needed to avoid crossing the thread boundaries
<mrvn>
orbifx: gonna try to make a button and then sockets work this weekend.
<orbifx>
At which stage does Lwt actually spawn a thread?
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<toolslive>
lwt doesn't spawn threads.
<toolslive>
if you don't do a preemptive detach, all fibers basically run on the same thread.
<mrvn>
orbifx: qobject properties like QLabel::setText()?
<icicled>
thanks for your help mfp!
<mfp>
np
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<orbifx>
mrvn: any properties, specially ones for setting up widgets.
<icicled>
in the non-lwt thread could I simply do: Lwt_preemptive.run_in_main( fun () -> pusher (Some data) ) |> ignore
<icicled>
that shouldn't wake up all the sleeping threads
<mrvn>
orbifx: every function of each class needs a binding. I'm thinking of having a preprocessor that generates all the trivial ones from function signatures. Maybe even straight from an mli file.
<icicled>
I see that Lwt_preemptive.run_in_main does exactly what you showed in your example
<icicled>
sweet =]
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<toolslive>
is there an opam-repository admin here that can press the button for pr's #5592 and #5593 ?
<icicled>
toolslive: thanks for getting that out there quickly!
<mrvn>
orbifx: I haven't gotten verry far yet and I'm experimenting. I have a 'a Proxy.t object in C that is a custom block with finalizer that holds the QT object and then a ocaml class that holds the proxy and provides all (eventually) the methods the QT class has.
<icicled>
I'm assuming you're mmotl
<toolslive>
??
<icicled>
whoops sorry toolslive
<icicled>
mistaken identify
<mrvn>
orbifx: The idea is to have the same class hirachy in ocaml as in qt.
<mrvn>
anyway, not gotten verry far yet
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<orbifx>
toolslive: thanks for the answer. Are undetached threads supposed to call `yield`?
<toolslive>
undetached threads? you can bind something that is of type 'a Lwt.t to a function that's waiting for something of type 'a via the >>= operator.
<toolslive>
let read () = ............... Lwt.return bytes in let write bytes = ............ Lwt.return () in let copy = read () >>= write ...
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<toolslive>
so you chain your fibers (functions that return something of 'a Lwt.t) via >>= and you hand your chain to Lwt_main.run
<sspi>
Drup: effects + native works now thanks :D
<Drup>
sspi: You should mention in on the thread
<Drup>
it*
<seangrove>
So I have a a file, `parser.mly` that references Liquid.value, and a a file called liquid.ml what has `type value = ...`, and I run _build/sanitize.sh; ocamlbuild -use-menhir -tag thread -use-ocamlfind -quiet -pkg core test.native && ./test.native example.json, but get the error: `Error: Unbound type constructor Liquid.value`
<seangrove>
Yeah, I'm just working off of the RWO example, I'll add to the gist, one moment
<orbifx>
toolslive: how does Lwt switch threads then?
<orbifx>
At which point does it switch?
<toolslive>
>>= means "if the left hand side takes time, go and do something else, and if the result is ready, come back and take the result and give it to the right hand side"
<seangrove>
Drup: Nevermind, found the problem - I never *saved8 the liquid.ml file :0
<orbifx>
toolslive: so does it pause the task on the left or fork? I'm trying to understand because I don't want to embed a lwt incompatible infinite loop which is stopped or never switched.
<seangrove>
I often see (Buffer.create 17) - why 17?
<mrvn>
because 16 is never enough and 18 way too much?
* seangrove
goes to meditate on the perfect nature of 17
<Drup>
seangrove: It's a tradition, but I have no idea whatsoever where it started
<toolslive>
suppose you're calling a read to fetch a string, but the data's not there. you're waiting. The scheduler will set the thread in a wait state and pick up somehting else to do. At some point in the future, the data has arrived, so the scheduler puts the thread in active state and hands the thing waiting the result data.
<mrvn>
17 seems odd though. 15 would keep the allocation at 24 byte, 17 makes it 32 bytes and uses only 17 out of 23 bytes.
<toolslive>
the thing that's waiting is what's on the right hand side of the >>= operator
<toolslive>
so the >>= determines the points where you can be suspended or resumed
<Drup>
seangrove: git grep "create 17" on the compiler reveals numerous examples.
<mrvn>
toolslive: it always suspends, it just sometimes resumes right back :)
<toolslive>
sometimes you don't need to wait ;)
<toolslive>
the scheduler changed over time iirc. it used to try to go as far as possible, but now it's more round robin
<mrvn>
continuing in the same thread usualy has better cache locality
<orbifx>
toolslive: i get the example with read because its probably using non blocking wrappers. But if I have a 'while true do increment' how does it relinquish control back to scheduler?
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<Drup>
If the result is already there, bind doesn't yield
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<mrvn>
orbifx: it doesn't. in that case ocaml never ever switched threads at all, ever.
<mrvn>
orbifx: ocaml and lwr multithreading is cooperatively. In case of ocaml hidden in allocations. in lwt in >>=
<Drup>
(which, if I remember correctly, is the main difference with Async)
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<orbifx>
mrvn: that's what I thought. So my options are either lwt_preemptive.detach or raw system forking?
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<mrvn>
orbifx: ocaml doesn't to parallel multitasking so you have to fork somewhere for that.
<mrvn>
orbifx: but why would you do 'while true do increment'?
<mrvn>
orbifx: it's easy enough to add a >>= in there to make it go away.
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<kansi>
hi, how can i fix a dependency of my project so that I can modify it and recompile my project with this modified version ?
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<Drup>
get the source, fix, opam pin
<toolslive>
actually most of the time multiple threads are rather worthless in ocaml because of the runtime lock. Anyway, if you understand how you can use select to write a single threaded server in C (or python or ....) you can understand how lwt works.
<orbifx>
Thanks mrvn, toolslive. Will have to try these another day.
<seangrove>
I'm trying to lex/parse (using menhir) something like `{{person.address.street}}`, struggling a bit. I can get {{person}} to parse just fine, but adding optional property accessors (and figuring out a backing datastructure with uniform key types but varying value types) is puzzling me
<aantron>
puzzling how?
<seangrove>
I realize that's super vague, hope there's enough in there to perhaps point at some documentation + keywords to search for
<mrvn>
seangrove: you can't. you either need non-uniform keys or uniform values.
<Drup>
you read the menhir manual ?
<mrvn>
seangrove: use a variant type to make the values uniform
<seangrove>
Drup: Going through it, but it's a bit daunting
<Drup>
Not used to parser generators ? :)
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<seangrove>
Drup: First time!
<Drup>
Right
<seangrove>
Hence why I'm doing it to learn :0
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<seangrove>
aantron: Say I have this in my parser.ml: `value: | LEFT_DBRACE; id = ID; RIGHT_DBRACE { `Id id }` - that parses `{{person}}` properly, but I optionally need to construct a path for property lookup
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<seangrove>
I'll keep going through the manual, this is probably very basic stuff, just need to find the right section
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<Drup>
I would create another rule, id, that parses either an "id DOT ID" or an "ID"
<aantron>
seangrove, sounds like you just need to modify your grammar, as Drup is suggesting
<icicled>
I currently have a module in which there are 3 functions (a, b, c) and the "entry point" is "a" which calls b & c with some of the same parameters passed to it
<icicled>
how can I organize this better? e.g. it doesn't make sense to pass parameters around to me
<icicled>
I could put it in an object or is there a better way?
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<Drup>
what's the problem with passing parameters ?
<icicled>
seems repetitive to me
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<icicled>
if this is normal please tell me - the majority of my past experience is in java/python where I used classes for organization
<icicled>
usually never for inheritance
<aantron>
icicled: you mean you stored the parameters as state in the class, and referenced that state in called functions?
<icicled>
yes
<aantron>
in the instances*
<aantron>
ok, yeah its normal not to do that in ocaml, and to pass parameters around
<aantron>
arguments* dangit
<icicled>
something like: x = Foo(bar, baz); x.a(); x.b();
<aantron>
well that looks like a pair
<icicled>
Foo is a class (prototype code)
<Drup>
icicled: without nothing more about the code, it seems normal to me
<icicled>
ok thanks - that's what I needed to know
<Drup>
edwin: what he wants doesn't seem to be implemented in pgocaml
<icicled>
edwin: I need the listen/notify feature that postgresql offers
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<Drup>
icicled: there is a blocking mode
<icicled>
right & its the default but it is for queries
<icicled>
notifications can arrive asynchronously in postgresql
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<icicled>
if I didn't use conn#consume_input then I would have to run some query every n seconds and then process the notifications
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<icicled>
toolslive mentioned that mixing select & lwt is frowned upon - what's the reason behind this?
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<StatelessCat>
hey
<StatelessCat>
I have a question, is Ocaml a "Dromadaire" in french, or a "Chameau" ?
<StatelessCat>
how many boss in the animal, one or two ?
<StatelessCat>
because Real World Ocaml has a cover with two, Ocaml from the very begunning -> one, and More Ocaml they just have a picture of the head of an ???
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<pierpa>
statelesscat: OFTVB it has only one because it's for beginners
<icicled>
If I create a ref for an atomic type (e.g. bool ref) is the ref also atomic or would I need to use a synchronization primitive if I want to share it among threads?
<StatelessCat>
pierpa: :)
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<hcarty>
icicled: "my_bool_ref := false" should be safe without a wrapper
<hcarty>
If the expression on the right hand side of := allocates, though, then it's not
<icicled>
awesome, that's really good to know - thanks hcarty
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<hcarty>
Updating a ref in general would be atomic, regardless of its content. It's the creation of the new value that goes into the ref which may not be.
<icicled>
makes sense
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<icicled>
btw, I don't know if my unix foo is wrong but according to the following command only 63 opam packages have docs specified: find ./ -name opam -print | xargs egrep -ho 'doc:\s+"(.+)"'| sort -u | wc -l
<icicled>
done in opam-repository/packages
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<edwin>
interesting to see that little init that was on ocaml subreddit the other day near the top of HN now
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<Drup>
HN tastes are impenetrable.
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