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<infinity0>
anyone notice issues with arm64 (armv8) for 4.05? apparently we're getting lots of "recompile with -fPIC" errors for certain libs
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<dxtr>
Why do many functions take a unit as their last argument?
<adrien>
do these also take optional arguments?
<dxtr>
Yes
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<marinelli>
hi everyone
<adrien>
hi
<adrien>
dxtr: that's because it's not otherwise possible to tell apart cases where you haven't yet provided all arguments and cases where you want to never do so
<adrien>
that's because of the ability to do partial application
<adrien>
for instance
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<adrien>
val f : ?a:'a -> ?b:'b -> ?c:'c -> unit = <fun>
<adrien>
Warning 16: this optional argument cannot be erased.
<adrien>
# let f ?a ?b ?c = ();;
<adrien>
and when you apply the ~a argument, you get:
<adrien>
# f ~a:42;;
<adrien>
- : ?b:'_a -> ?c:'_b -> unit = <fun>
<adrien>
the compiler cannot guess that you don't want to provide other arguments too
<adrien>
that's also why the "cannot be erased" warning is given
<dxtr>
Ah, alright
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<marinelli>
I was trying this early morning (@Italy) to build the first tagged release of OCaml 4.05.0
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<marinelli>
actually, if I try to build it using multiple jobs (make -j9 world.opt) it returns an error
<dxtr>
I built 4.04.1 on my pocketchip earlier today :D
<marinelli>
I'm working on Debian GNU/Linux with GCC 7.1 and GNU Make 4.1
<dxtr>
a 1ghz armhf cpu
<dxtr>
With 512mb ram
<dxtr>
I should probably get a bluetooth keyboard for it
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<Drup>
companion_cube, adrien: time to update the motd :D
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<gasche>
dogui: the idea is that (Obj.magic 1) has a type that is an instance of (forall 'a. 'a), and that the type-checker knows that values of these type never return
<gasche>
(typically they are of the form (raise ..) or (assert false ..) or a function that always does one of the above)
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<companion_cube>
o/ gasche
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<quux>
hello, is there anyway to safely handle string/bytes used as a password
<quux>
zeroing out the memory and making sure it's not copied around by gc
<zozozo>
afaik, not in pure ocaml; but you may do so using C bindings
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<orbifx[m]>
It's controversial that jbuilder generates applications ending in .exe :P
<zozozo>
well, I understand the choice, but it is way too windowsy for me :p
<orbifx[m]>
yes
<quux>
what do you mean? jbuilder appends .exe to every binaries ?
<orbifx[m]>
kindof :P
<quux>
i have not used jbuilder ? :p hear it's the new build system hype for ocaml
<orbifx[m]>
there is (public_name <name>) to change its name during build
<orbifx[m]>
quux: it's a breeze so far, and I used it to do C bindings
<quux>
how long till we will see another build system ? i bet next year we will have a new one :p
<orbifx[m]>
till we get it right I guess :P
<orbifx[m]>
zozozo: note the (public_name <name>) stanza
<quux>
i am stuck in oasis land for now, maybe i should join in the hype ;)
<orbifx[m]>
quux: as a user I would say it's a welcome change. Oasis was ok, but when it went wrong....
<zozozo>
orbifx[m]: indeed it's a good solution
<orbifx[m]>
quux: wait till you hit a bump with oasis, then change
<zozozo>
I never understood the correct workflow to have with oasis, I always end up trying to commit generated files because else it doesn't build, so I'm fine with pure ocamlbuild :p
<quux>
zozozo: you are supposed to commit the generated file; you can even add custom ocamlbuild code after the marker
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<quux>
jbuilder doesn't use ocamlbuild?
<zozozo>
jbuilder aims at replacing ocamlbuild
<flux>
no, jbuilder does its own building
<orbifx[m]>
quux: my understanding jbuilder overlaps with oasis+ocamlbuild
<quux>
ah so it is actually a new build system then ;)
<zozozo>
and it is currently quite faster than ocamlbuild iirc
<richou>
It is. Core started using it in v0.9, and install times are significantly shorter
<theblatte>
also jbuilder doesn't take several seconds to realise nothing needs to be recompiled
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<orbifx[m]>
seems good
<orbifx[m]>
so far I'm impressed
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<quux>
btw why does ctrl+f is overridden in the discuss forum?
<quux>
lol that's so bad it's not even funny :(
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<orbifx[m]>
hahah
<orbifx[m]>
try shift+ctrl+f
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<orbifx[m]>
It's were modern day web-"apps" try to be more than they should, taking away choice
<richou>
Or Ctrl-G, dependinf on your browser
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<theblatte>
- extlib-compat is not available because your system doesn't comply with ocaml-version < "4.05.0".
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<Drup>
Time to move to containers! :D
<quux>
is there any reason to upper bound the version number? isn't the compiler supposed to be backwards compatible?
<quux>
unless it's using compiler-libs :p
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<theblatte>
Drup: time to yell at people who have libs that still use extlib-compat :p
<Drup>
what's -compat version for ?
<theblatte>
it used to be called extlib, but then something happened, let me see
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<theblatte>
in the end, only javalib doesn't work with 4.05.0, and I had to `opam pin` extlib-compat and ppx_deriving to their github for them to compile. Would it be better to open issues against extlib-compat and ppx_deriving directly or in opam?
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<Drup>
theblatte: on the packages directly
<orbifx[m]>
anyone knows why ocaml needs threads started by C code registered?
<theblatte>
ahhh, extlib doesn't install UTF8 by default anymore, tripping javalib. I assume there's something in newer OCaml stdlibs that replaces it?
<flux>
I think there was a module name collision
<flux>
so maybe it's in a separate module?
<flux>
I remember having to patch extlib to remove some module to make it work for me.. it was probably UTF8
<flux>
it wasn't with stdlib but with some other popular library
<flux>
orbifx[m], probably just ones that are going to run OCaml code you mean?
<orbifx[m]>
flux: yeah
<theblatte>
flux: the manual says "minimal=1 will exclude from build several modules (namely Unzip UChar UTF8) potentially conflicting with other well established OCaml libraries."
<gasche>
theblatte: it looks like you could just submit an extlib-compat 1.7.2 package
<gasche>
would you consider doing this?
<theblatte>
but doesn't say which "well-established OCaml libraries"
<gasche>
(1) look at the diff between extlib-compat.1.7.0/opam and extlib.1.7.0/opam, reproduce it on top of extlib.1.7.2/opam
<flux>
well if it was the standard library it would probably say so ;-)
<gasche>
(2) test the resulting package
<orbifx[m]>
flux: the Registering threads created from C 19.11.1
<gasche>
(3) send it on opam
<theblatte>
flux: yes, I just wish it told me what these mysterious libraries that I'm supposed to know about are :)
<flux>
camomile has both uChar.cmi and uTF8.cmi
<gasche>
orbifx[m]: have you tried reading the source of caml_c_thread_register to understand why?
<theblatte>
gasche: ok, thanks for the pointers. not sure how to do (2) beyond "it builds"
<gasche>
(then you could submit a PR to add this explanation to the manual?)
<theblatte>
flux: thanks
<gasche>
theblatte: sounds good enough to me, although "my program using it works" is also a nice test
<theblatte>
javalib should stop using extlib anyway ;)
<theblatte>
gasche: trying to make that happen at the moment
<gasche>
not sure why you say javalib should stop using extlib
<orbifx[m]>
gasche: no
<theblatte>
I think what it uses from extlib is either in newer OCaml versions or can be found elsewhere, but I might be wrong
<orbifx[m]>
I will if no one can put it in simple English here
<gasche>
theblatte: let me know if you have any issue updating extlib-compat
<gasche>
(I can try to take care of it)
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<gasche>
(when you send a PR against opam-repository, do ping the maintainer (ygrek) so that they know that extlib-compat should be updated as well next time)
<theblatte>
gasche: got it
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<theblatte>
gasche: same for ppx_deriving?
<theblatte>
that one's trickier because there's no new release in the project itself
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<orbifx[m]>
gasche: do you use the Github copy? Is that the current one?
<theblatte>
"<*/{,*/}*.{ml,re}{,i}>: package(ppx_compare)" is not a good _tag anymore if I use the latest ppx_deriving version; ocamlbuild calls it with some options but ppx_deriving wants some other options
<Drup>
ppx_deriving is in the middle of migrating to omp, I don't remember what has been merged already, but it's a bit messy right now
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<theblatte>
Drup: alright
<theblatte>
I guess that's the end of my quest for building infer with 4.05.0 ;)
<orbifx[m]>
gasche: it's not clear what the benefit is.. they are the thread info to a list, there is something about a tick thread and then that is it.
<orbifx[m]>
hmm, seems like it could be for scanning stacks of threads with the GC
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<gasche>
theblatte: ppx_deriving needs a new release indeed, and there is an issue open already, you should go ping the maintainer there
<gasche>
(whitequark is usually super-reactive about these things, and this one unfortunately takes longer, I don't know why, he must be very busy with other things)
<gasche>
theblatte: apologies, on the behalf of the OCaml implementors, for not having a release-day-smooth user experience
<gasche>
in theory we can't control what package authors do, in practice I've spent some time nudging them to update to 4.05 ahead of time (extlib for example), but the process is not flawless yet
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<gasche>
ocaml-migrate-parsetree hopefully will make it much easier for future releases; for this one there was adoption cost
<theblatte>
gasche: I didn't expect this to be flawless to be honest, it's already in great shape given the number of packages that do work
<Drup>
Well, it's also the fact that 4.05 does not contain groundbreaking new features that everyone is rushing to try, so adoption is not instant
<theblatte>
I was expecting more of a lock-step process where the compiler gets out *then* packages migrate
<gasche>
orbifx[m]: I look at the trunk source code (in my personal repo)
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<gasche>
my personal Q/A goal is that all opam packages for on the new OCaml release from day one
<gasche>
I think this is the user experience we want to provide, and I think it is well within reach
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<theblatte>
gasche: nice
<orbifx[m]>
gasche: what do you do with offending packages?
<orbifx[m]>
or offended :P
<gasche>
hm
<theblatte>
gasche: I did try to be a good citizen and try out 4.05.0+rc1, but stopped at the first blocker /o\
<orbifx[m]>
take them out in the field :P
<gasche>
so right now my more modest goal is that all package that opam *believes* are installable actually do install correctly
<gasche>
to reach it, if a package is offending, I mark it incompatible with the new version
<reynir>
My strategy is 'it works for me' until someone complains it doesn't work for them :/
<gasche>
(but of course the game is to pressure package authors into releasing a compatible version at the same time)
<gasche>
opam-builder has proved an excellent tool to test installability of packages in the public opam repository, and I think it helped in having 4.04 and 4.05 work better (from this p.o.v) than 4.03
<gasche>
(then I didn't personally have enough time to invest in this during the 4.05 release period)
<gasche>
then there is the question of: how do you actually get package authors to release a new-version-compatible version, and there is no general answer
<gasche>
I think that if we notice the breakage enough in advance, we have good chances of people just doing the right thing in a couple weeks
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<theblatte>
gasche: maybe do a release candidate more in advance?
<gasche>
so
<gasche>
it's not necessarily a good idea
<theblatte>
-rc1 was on 4/7, and final today, that's not a lot of time
<gasche>
the problem is that, most of the time, there are a few packages deep down the dependency tree that block everything else
<theblatte>
ergl
<gasche>
you need to iterate a lot updating things before you get to the user's immediate dependencies
<theblatte>
right, that's a pain
<gasche>
and I don't want to ask end-users to do that, I'd rather do continuous monitoring during the dev period
<gasche>
so you only want to involve the users at the last mile, when most packages are actually ok, and they can interact with their direct dependencies to solve the remaining issues
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<gasche>
I do agree that having a clearer release calendar that is communicated to users better would be nice
<theblatte>
gasche: just as one data-point: if I'd known that was the goal, and if I had had more time, I would probably have complained earlier than today about my broken deps
<gasche>
(it also helps people contributing to the compiler)
<orbifx[m]>
gasche: what are some of the most troublesome people use when it comes to taking ocaml forward?
<gasche>
I think that if we maintain good-enough monitoring tools to let everyone see what works and doesn't work "on trunk", we could count on a few early-adopters / development-followers to help smoothe things at that level
<orbifx[m]>
Probably things that use low level internals, but are there any other uses/features/tools which are a pain?
<gasche>
maybe instead of having more "pre-release testers" we could encourage people to be more like "continuous caretakers of the opam ecosystem"
<gasche>
orbifx[m]: right now, all ppx stuff is a pain
<gasche>
but ocaml-migrate-parsetree should alleviate that for future OCaml releases
<gasche>
(the ecosystem is transitioning)
<orbifx[m]>
how so?
<gasche>
it decouple ppx codebases from the specific version of the OCaml AST they are using, which means that they don't automatically stop building at each new release
<gasche>
(it provides versioned AST declarations and some conversions back and forth versions)
<theblatte>
gasche: but how can people take care of their packages if there's no pre-release of the compiler to test? If I see the compiler is in beta I think it's not time yet for me to give it a try
<gasche>
I'm not sure what is the best way to do it, and I think we'll find out over time
<theblatte>
I mean testing on trunk is a bit brutal, isn't it? Or is the expectation that trunk is stable enough that all opam should work if compiled from trunk?
<gasche>
but one thing I would like to experiment, starting in the fall, is to use opam-builder to monitor the opam health of snapshots of trunk taken every two weeks
<gasche>
so yeah, "hope trunk is stable enough"
<Drup>
theblatte: in practice, trunk is fairly usable
<quux>
does enabling fp have any impact on performance?
<gasche>
quux: yes, it decreases them
<gasche>
otherwise it would be the default I guess
<Drup>
theblatte: by that, I mean that except compat breakage (that are mostly on purpose), it's not unstable.
<theblatte>
ok that could make sense then
<gasche>
you use more stack space, and calls slow down a bit; this will be noticeable or not depending on your programming style (it is bad when you have a lot of nested recursive calls to small/fast functions)
<gasche>
re. trunk: for me the remaining unknown is when to involve the maintainers of packages that break
<gasche>
I could let them know immediately (this could be automated), but maybe that's actually a regression in trunk that has to be fixed/reverted
<Drup>
gasche: when you start the feature branch
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<Drup>
the version branch*
<theblatte>
if you wait until some sort of release has happened then there's a risk that the situation will have deteriorated a lot by then, so it's more work
<Drup>
(so, a bit after feature freeze)
<gasche>
well
<quux>
gasche: is the performance decrease due to cost of prolog epilog in tightbound loops or is there something else to it?
<gasche>
quux: that would be tightbound function calls rather than loops, but yes; fp requires you to have one more slot in each stack frame
<gasche>
so if you have a non-tail-recursive function with only one argument, you double stack usage (which costs space and a bit of time)
<gasche>
re. opam: I can't just shoot emails to everyone whose package is not installable on version branching because, as mentioned previously, most people are not directly responsible, it's a deep dependency
<Drup>
gasche: that's actually fairly easy to figure out ...
<gasche>
yes, but then they go back to sleep and what?
<gasche>
again, I would like a more iterative process, otherwise package authors won't be told at the time where they can actually fix things
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<gasche>
so my ideal process would be something like two-weeks chunks (approximately) during the whole trunk cycle
<gasche>
during the first week, I assess whether breakages are a bug to be fixed/reverted or whether they will be permanent; during the second week I notify people when they need to adapt to permanent changes
<theblatte>
if I learned one thing from infer is that you don't want to report errors to devs when it's not their fault or they will ignore you ;)
<quux>
we don't have a fp build on opam for 4.05 yet
<Drup>
quux: fp is not very useful anymore
<zozozo>
gasche: i think that would be nice
<Drup>
dwarf annotations will give you proper debuging in most cases.
<zozozo>
makes me think I should probably add a trunk test on my packages' CI
<quux>
Drup: is it possible to afl+flambda on opam ?
<Drup>
quux: Feel free to do so. It's fairly easy ;)
<quux>
Drup: i meant an opam switch ;p
<Drup>
Yes. You can add it to the repository
<Drup>
it's really easy, you just copy on of the switch description and tweak the configure call to enable what you want
<theblatte>
it prevents the compiler from smashing stack frames, so stack frames look like C stack frames and gdb/perf/... know when you're calling functions
<Drup>
It used to enable perf to compute the call graphs, but it's not needed anymore
<gasche>
theblatte: thanks, I'll wait for the CI report and then we can merge
<gasche>
(feel free to ping me when they come if you notice it before me)
<quux>
ah, i didn't know, how opam worked; i thought it will only let me install the compilers in the opam repo
<Drup>
quux: You misunderstood me. I'm advising you to contribute to the opam repo :)
<quux>
Drup: i just made local change and with opam update it just works ?
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