adrien changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml 4.06.0 release notes: https://caml.inria.fr/pub/distrib/ocaml-4.06/notes/Changes | Try OCaml in your browser: http://try.ocamlpro.com | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<remix2000[m]> If I don't want to make asynchronous calls, is it still okay to use cohttp?
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<M-ErkkiSeppl> @remix2000:matrix.org: sure, why not. I've used oCurl in the past but probably cohttp is nowadayas a better idea.
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<remix2000[m]> Is there a more convenient way to expose concrete types than copying type signatures to mli?
<steenuil> but that would make it hard to figure out what they are without looking at the implementation file
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<M-ErkkiSeppl> @remix2000:matrix.org: well, you can expose them in another .mli file and then include that into both your actual .mli and the .ml...
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<ool1Dei2> Is evaluation order of arguments specified in ocaml? Since we have currying, doesn't it mean that in (f x y) :: x -> (y -> whatever) x have to be evaluated before y, according to the type?
<ool1Dei2> Haskell is not strict, so it basically doesn't matter there, but in a strict language wouldn't this prevent us from doing optimizations?
<M-ErkkiSeppl> no, it's not specified
<M-ErkkiSeppl> in fact you will find that byte code and optimized code have a different opinion on that :-)
<M-ErkkiSeppl> in other words: do not have side effects that depend on evaluation order as parameters
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<ool1Dei2> M-ErkkiSeppl: ok, but doesn't it seem broken from the point of types?
<M-ErkkiSeppl> well, no? types don't model side effects
<ool1Dei2> I mean, you have type x -> y -> z, but actually y is evaluated before (y -> z) is even called... I dunno, it just seems wrong
<M-ErkkiSeppl> :)
<M-ErkkiSeppl> well, haskell does it.. ?
<M-ErkkiSeppl> ie. it digs into an expression without evaluting stuff in order
<ool1Dei2> M-ErkkiSeppl: but in haskell "x" doesn't literally means "x", it's rather "a thunk that will maybe sometimes give x if the planets align correctly"
<ool1Dei2> That's why I've made a point about strictness when I was asking a question. I mean, I can understand why it's allowed in haskell, but in (oca)ml? I dunno
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<ool1Dei2> Basically by carrying you're "linearizing" your function types, kinda similar to how the list imposes order on its contents... so if the actual implementation then shuffles your args around, it seems to me like it's not completely sound... kinda like if you were iterating a list and got its elements in different order. You see what I mean?
<Drup> it might shock your intution, but it's really not a soundness question
<Drup> the only thing that strictness dicatate is that arguments are evoluated before the function call, the order of evaluation among arguments is up to the implementation
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<ool1Dei2> Drup: but we don't have such thing as "arguments", we always have exactly one because carrying. So in my example above "arguments are evaluated before the function call" is not true (we start evaluating (y -> z) before x is evaluated)
<Drup> No, that's in pure lambda calculus. Application in OCaml is n-ary
<Drup> it makes no difference in a pure setting, but that's it.
<ool1Dei2> Drup: ah, so functions in ocaml aren't actually curried; it's rather a syntax sugar for partial application. Is that correct? And if they were actually curried, then my argument would be valid?
<Drup> Alternatively, you could say that the compiler is applying an optimization that is not semantic preserving
<Drup> but yes, that's the gist of it
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<ool1Dei2> Yeah, I could, but it really bothers me when I think about it. :)
<ool1Dei2> Drup: so yeah, this clears things up for me. Thanks!
<M-ErkkiSeppl> fun: https://pastebin.com/KmJZBnje
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<ool1Dei2> M-ErkkiSeppl: could you paste the output too, please?
<exarkun> Can I define two executables in a jbuild file? When I try I get errors about a module being used in multiple places (but this is not obviously the case).
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<Drup> exarkun: yes, you just have to specify exactly the modules to be linked in with `(modules ...)`
<ool1Dei2> M-ErkkiSeppl: that's kinda weird! I would expect it to reorder foo, not foo2
<ool1Dei2> On the other hand, maybe compiler is smart enough to know that incr is commutative
<M-ErkkiSeppl> I reaaally doubt that
<Drup> the compiler doesn't re-order side-effecting instruments
<Drup> including flambda
<Drup> instructions*
<exarkun> Drup: And then I can't use the same module in more than one executable? I'm tempted to ask why but I guess that doesn't really matter.. What do I do if two executables _do_ use the same module?
<M-ErkkiSeppl> btw, removing incr a makes the output revert back to case 1
<ool1Dei2> Ah, it's just the arguments; if we were to insert the printfs inside foo2, they'd be in correct order. I see
<Drup> exarkun: it's a jbuilder constraint
<ool1Dei2> M-ErkkiSeppl: hmm, no, I guess don't see (lol). That's weird
<Drup> it's a bit crap, but that's how it is currently. If you have shared code between different stanza, you are supposed to pull it in a library
<Drup> I think they aim to fix it eventually
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<exarkun> okay I guess I'll have one executable with a flag that picks between two behaviors, instead
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<Bluddy> test
<discord_bot> <Bluddy> test
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<Drup> Bluddy did you finally have control over the riot group ?
<discord_bot> <loxs> so this channel is connected to IRC?
<Bluddy> No I haven't heard anything from the Riot guys
<Bluddy> But IRC is now connected to the #IRC channel of the Discord chat
<Bluddy> I was a little wary of connecting it to the #general channel right away
<Drup> honestly, from the perspective of IRC, the result is kinda crap
<Armael> it'd be nicer if people on discord appeared as actual people here
<Drup> exactly
<Bluddy> I don't know if there are issues with doing things that way. The code for the bot I used doesn't do it -- not sure why.
<Bluddy> On the discord end it looks really nice: if you have a user on discord, it'll seem as if you're speaking there, with just a little bot flair next to your name
<Khady> but no completion on the name :(
<flux[m]> it's probably more difficult to implement without co-operation of the chat network in question
<Armael> you mean individual nicks on irc appear as distinct people on discord?
<Drup> Well, from the IRC end, the discord people don't exist
<flux[m]> due to limited amount of permitted connections from a host; this approach uses only one
<flux[m]> I suppose the code is also much more complicated.
<flux[m]> I expect it to seem exactly the same on discord and in irc: the other network is one user?
<Bluddy> Right on discord also, you don't see the IRC people as being online as part of the OCaml server. Which is a little weird, since I think Discord can support stuff like that.
<flux[m]> discord is probably even more tricky to implement such a "complete bridge" functionality, unless it provides APIs for server-server connections or creating/removing users on the fly
<Bluddy> The advantage on discord is that because it provides a bot api, it actually pretends that the person talking is a discord user with that name
<Bluddy> and if a user exists with that name, it can even show the user's icon
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<flux[m]> matrix is the first chat network I know of that does "proper" bridging. apparently mattermost can also do that with slack.
<flux[m]> Bluddy: well that's nice
<discord_bot> <loxs> Are there conflicts if you are both in IRC and Discord?
<Drup> That's why I would prefer to use riot over discord. Riot actually support bridges like that first class
<Drup> loxs: Well, given that your message appear here as sent by "discord_bot" ... no
<flux[m]> by riot you mean the matrix riot client?
<loxs> Yeah, just tried... I like this setup to be honest
<Drup> flux[m]: whatever :D
<Drup> loxs: from the IRC perspective, it's really crap :/
<loxs> And I also think it's not super bad on the IRC side either
<loxs> I'm only worried about code snippets :)
<flux[m]> I think it's tolerable. There's some value in increasing community cohesion.
<flux[m]> I'm also on another channel with Telegram bridge and it's nice how "new people" can participate in the discussion.
<Bluddy> I think it's decent for now
<Bluddy> If I can find out how to make it seem like the actual person is talking on IRC, that would be an improvement
<flux[m]> many irc clients could be extended to hide that bridge gap a bit better (but not completely)
<Armael> ..but who wants to extend its irc client
<Drup> Bluddy: yeah, that would be much better
<Bluddy> Also, if we ever get control of the OCaml community in Matrix, we can create a perfect mirror of discord to matrix, and then matrix will do a better job of bridging to IRC
<Drup> yeah
<Drup> that would be really good
<discord_bot> <loxs> Sorry about this, but I just want to know what I'm causing if I do it: ocaml module Test = struct let a = () end
<flux[m]> Armael: well, I hope that at some point IRC will sunset while superior solutions will arise :-)
<Armael> :^)
<flux[m]> during the transition period smoothening the ridges would be nice
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<Bluddy> loxs: It's not great on IRC
<Armael> the best way of posting code snippets on irc is probably to upload them somewhere and post a link
<Armael> I think the matrix bridge does this?
<Bluddy> man, discord doesn't even show it as a mention, but I'm pretty sure it's supposed to
<loxs> yeah, I only got notification in IRC
<Bluddy> I need to dig through that bot's code. Better than nothing for now.
<Bluddy> If anyone wants to improve on it, it's at https://github.com/reactiflux/discord-irc
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<discord_bot> <Bluddy> testing testing
<test> Bluddy: hello
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<Guest86514> @Bluddy:hello
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<discord_bot> <Bluddy> ok so it looks like in order to mention a discord user, you need to use the @user convention
<Armael> :/
<discord_bot> <Bluddy> that's because the bot does a regex replacement based on that token
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<discord_bot> <Bluddy> I could probably expand it to include looking for a user at the very start of the message. That's the only way you get a mention in IRC, right?
<Armael> yea
<discord_bot> <Bluddy> ok so that should be easy to do
<lyxia> on IRC highlighting is configured in each individual client
<discord_bot> <Bluddy> but does it parse the whole message looking for names? Maybe for highlighting, but also for mentions?
<lyxia> do you get highlighted here Bluddy? I think most clients do that.
<lyxia> But if you only look for names at the beginning that covers most use cases.
<Drup> there is no intrinsic mention of HL in IRC, it's just a thing IRC client do
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<discord_bot> <Bluddy> ok so i'll just do beginning checks for mentions. Since there's no standard anyway, might as well just do that.
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<discord_bot> <Bluddy> Maybe it'll also help to have a shorter name than 'discord_bot'. The shorter the name, the less intrusive it is?
<flux[m]> personally I wouldn't mind if IRC also transitioned to that @notify convention
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<flux[m]> you wouldn't believe how much they talk about flux in #reprap..
<discord_bot> <Bluddy> hehe
<discord_bot> <Bluddy> I don't know what emojis do: 😄
<Drup> That's your fault, you shouldn't choose a common english noun as nick :p
<flux[m]> should've thought of that 30 years ago
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<discord_bot> <Bluddy> would having a shorter name than discord_bot be helpful to anyone? Would it look better in your client?
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<lyxia> +1
<discord_bot> <Bluddy> ok, how short would be good? bot? Just D for discord?
<zozozo> @Bluddy personnaly, it wouldn't change much for me
<discord_bot> <Bluddy> Hey, looks like emojis work fine... I guess if your client supports them, at least
<Drup> just name it "discord"
<discord_bot> <Bluddy> OK will do.
<flux[m]> the shorter the nick, the more bytes saved!
<flux[m]> it seems that particular emoji was converted to unicode, so it should work in almost anything non-obsolete
<steenuil> btw, how does the matrix bridge work? it seems to spawn a new IRC user for every matrix one
<pmetzger> Testing.
<discord_bot> <Perry> testing.
<discord_bot> <Perry> Interesting.
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<discord_bot> <Perry> You know, we could solve this whole problem by creating ANOTHER chat service that does everything everyone wants in other chat services and unifies them. I'm sure that will fix absolutely everything!
<flux[m]> matrix :-(
<flux[m]> except it doesn't do reacts or stickers. yet!
<pmetzger> Does it do markdown?
<Drup> yeah
<pmetzger> Can we run our own server?
<Drup> it's also not centralized or handled by a private company, so it's not HYP
<discord_bot> <Perry> HYP?
<discord_bot> <Bluddy> @steenuil yeah matrix has a connection per user. I think it might be possible to do it here as well. The problem is what to do when you clash with an existing user. That may be why matrix adds the [m] suffix.
<flux[m]> yes, you can run your own server and federate it with the rest of the matrix network
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<flux[m]> with the most efficient star network topology, I guess they need to do something about that some day :-)
<flux[m]> oops I meant "fully connected mesh". at least that's what I think it is..
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<Khady> what the problem with matrix? A specific name of group is targeted and not available?
<discord_bot> <Bluddy> ok yeah looks like the only problem is freenode's connection limits from a particular IP. Matrix must have requested unlimited connections.
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<discord_bot> <Bluddy> @khady Matrix is catching up with slack and discord in terms of having channels (rooms) aggregated under one 'community' (server, or guild in discord). Unfortunately, somebody already took the OCaml community and is not being responsive. Since this is a brand new feature for them, there's no way to ask to join the community directly, and no appeal process.
<Khady> but "ocaml" is a name, right?
<Khady> if there is no one and no activity in this community, we can backup to ocamllang or something similar
<Khady> okml
<discord_bot> <Bluddy> that's true. but would be much nicer to have ocaml. i don't know if this can be changed later on if need be.
<discord_bot> <Bluddy> there's also the minor issue that the matrix <-> discord bridge is currently declared to be "alpha quality, but usable"
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<discord_bot> <Bluddy> honestly, all of matrix has that alpha or beta feel to it. which isn't saying it's bad, so long as that passes at some point
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<Khady> the name doesn't seem critical to me compared with a working solution. As long as the good name is properly advertised, it will be found
<Khady> To find the discord you also have to google and find a link to a not broken invitation but it doesn't seem to stop people
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<discord_bot> <Perry> Matrix has a published protocol specification?
<discord_bot> <Bluddy> @khady you make a good point
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<pmetzger> BTW, what's the real problem with IRC? Ugly clients?
<Khady> I never tried matrix, so I'm not advocating it because I love it btw.
<Drup> pmetzger: it's not hip anymore :p
<discord_bot> <ncthbrt> Don't you need to run a bridge to get push?
<discord_bot> <ncthbrt> In irc?
<pmetzger> Also, it looks like an OCaml implementation of much of the Matrix protocol wouldn't be hard. It seems to be unpleasantly http based like many such things but whatever.
<pmetzger> (Someday people may remember that TCP is a fine protocol, and HTTP is implemented on top of it.
<discord_bot> <Bluddy> in theory, matrix is amazing. in reality, it's quite clunky. since the concept of 'communities' is a late addition, it's just an odd wrapper around room names that exist independently. It's not like discord where the channels are entities within the server.
<discord_bot> <Bluddy> if you want to check out the ocaml community I quickly made in matrix, you can go to https://riot.im/app/#/group/+ocamllang:matrix.org
<pmetzger> And of course there's the age-old question of whether Matrix is invertable.
<pmetzger> Oh, good. I'll now have to fire up Riot. :|
<discord_bot> <Bluddy> btw discord is built around a REST API that's also fully specified https://discordapp.com/developers/docs/intro
<Drup> Bluddy: can you add #ocaml to it ?
<pmetzger> okay, Riot is so good that having started it, I can't figure out how to get to the OCaml community.
<pmetzger> That's what you want in a good user interface, complete incomprehensibility.
<pmetzger> What do I do to get to the ocaml thing?
<Drup> pmetzger: communities are completely opaque in matrix at the moment, they exists, but that's about it, sort of
<discord_bot> <Bluddy> I think the list I posted should help get to the community
<discord_bot> <Bluddy> it's really clunky. I wish it wasn't, but it is
<discord_bot> <Bluddy> list = link
<pmetzger> Clicking on it doesn't really assist. :(
<pmetzger> it says there are no rooms.
<discord_bot> <Bluddy> try this: https://riot.im/app/#/group/+ocamllang:matrix.org
<discord_bot> <Bluddy> the rooms didn't show initially for me either, but now they do
<discord_bot> <Bluddy> oh you may have to join the community first to see the room
<discord_bot> <Bluddy> ok i changed the permission so anyone can join
<Drup> Right, that's better now
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<discord_bot> <Perry> Wow. Riot isn't just confusing, it's also nearly the slowest thing I've ever used.
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<pmetzger[m]> It took about 20 seconds to join this room after clicking.
<pmetzger> and it took almost 20 seconds to relay that message to IRC and Discord.
<pmetzger[m]> And another 20 seconds to get from IRC to Matrix.
<pmetzger[m]> Slooooooow.
<Armael> :D
<discord_bot> <Bluddy> yeah. it's really slow
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<discord_bot> <Bluddy> I'm afraid that despite having the open-source-ness, they're not doing the kinds of things discord does to maintain speed. discord supposedly has a very well-architected backend.
<steenuil> the requirements can't be too high if you want people to host their own servers, I think
<pmetzger[m]> It might also be that the server we're using is badly overloaded. Who knows.
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<steenuil> the matrix.org server is probably the most popular
<pmetzger[m]> Is it highly overloaded? Because it's not exactly responding quickly here and I think that's what we're using.
<discord_bot> <Perry> Wow, the speed of message transmission into and out of matrix is amazingly bad.
<discord_bot> <Perry> instant transmission between discord and IRC though.
<steenuil> I don't know, I mostly use matrix through another small server and I think it's pretty fast there
<pmetzger[m]> So it might indeed be the server.
<pmetzger[m]> We might set up our own on some .ocaml.org site and it might work better, and then we might even be able to name the community "ocaml".
<pmetzger[m]> But I have to say, the Riot client UI does not impress.
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<pmetzger> If I use markdown on the IRC side, does it do the right thing on the other? _italics_. **bold**.
<discord_bot> <Perry> markdown
<pmetzger> Ah, so markdown on the IRC side arrives at discord, but on the discord side is stripped before arriving at IRC.
<pmetzger> That could be unfortunate.
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<pmetzger[m]> markdown
<pmetzger> It arrived from IRC to Matrix though. But from Matrix it was stripped before it got to IRC.
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<discord_bot> <Bluddy> That's odd
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<discord_bot> <Perry> Try it.
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<discord_bot> <Bluddy> no i believe you, it's just odd that matrix is doing this.
<discord_bot> <Bluddy> hold on, i'm rebooting the bot
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<discord1> <Perry> It seems unfortunate since rendering markdown on IRC would be easy.
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<discord1> <Bluddy> test
<discord1> <Perry> test didn't get to Matrix yet
<discord1> <Bluddy> yeah it's super slow
<pmetzger[m]> test
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<discord1> <Perry> discord to matrix is still not up.
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<Bluddy[m]> Test
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<discord1> <ncthbrt> Bluddy: Is this coming from matrix @Bluddy?
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<discord1> <Bluddy> It was.
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<discord1> <ncthbrt> Hmm. So are matrix users marked with a [m]?
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<Armael> yes
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<discord1> <Bluddy> I believe that's how they attempt to avoid nickname conflicts.
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<flux[m]> well, you can choose any nick, that's just the default
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<discord1> <Bluddy> But can you get rid of the m?
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<flux[m]> well, I haven't tried, but nothing says it's not possible
<flux[m]> but case in point my default nick was M-ErkkiSeppl and I changed it to flux[m]
<flux[m]> I chose to use the suffix as I'm also as 'flux' here. and a little bit of matrix advocacy never hurt anybody!
<Fare> Hi. Where do I find documentation on ppx old and new style so I can fix lens to work with jbuilder ?
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<Drup> "new style" means "use ocaml-migrate-parsetree's driver"
<Drup> so, you can look at omp directly
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<discord1> <Perry> What happens if you set your username to foo[m] I wonder.
<discord1> <Perry> on the IRC side that is.
<discord1> <ncthbrt> foom?
<discord1> <ncthbrt> Actually no. Probably nothing
<discord1> <ncthbrt> Bot users aren't real
<discord1> <Perry> I mean if there's a conflict with a foo[m] that appears later from matrix.
<discord1> <ncthbrt> So no collision
<discord1> <Perry> On the discord side is isn't an issue.
<discord1> <ncthbrt> Oh I see
<discord1> <ncthbrt> Hmmm.
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<discord1> <ncthbrt> Like the way this bridge is working on discord. But 🤦 damn. Why haven't we (the internet) figured this messaging stuff out yet.
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<companion_cube> so which discord is it?
<companion_cube> ncthbrt: https://xkcd.com/927/
<discord1> <ncthbrt> OCaml Discord.
<discord1> <ncthbrt> companion_cube: Such a classic
<orbifx> Didn't discord drop IRC support?
<discord1> <ncthbrt> Think it's a 3rd party integration. Did discord ever support IRC? Thought that was slack?
<orbifx> bah dont know
<discord1> <Perry> https://xkcd.com/1810/
<orbifx> They missed XMPP
<orbifx> You all appear as "discord1".. some kind of chimera.
<discord1> <ncthbrt> So can you tell my username at all?
<discord1> <ncthbrt> Or do we look like the discord borg to you?
<companion_cube> you look like the borg
<discord1> <ncthbrt> 🙍‍♂️
<companion_cube> when you talk it's "<borg nickname 1> message"
<discord1> <ncthbrt> As in "<discord ncthbrt> : {{MESSAGE_HERE}}"?
<companion_cube> yep
<companion_cube> well, no
<companion_cube> discord: <nickname> message
<discord1> <ncthbrt> So you literally can't tell whether I am the same person talking
<discord1> <ncthbrt> Must be a way to fix that
<companion_cube> I can, since there's your <nickname> inside the message
<companion_cube> I just don't get tab completion nor nickname coloring
<discord1> <ncthbrt> You look like this to us: https://imgur.com/a/BmGM5Nt
<companion_cube> I'm a bot \o/
<discord1> <Perry> That's not too bad. You still see our discord nicks.
<companion_cube> yep
<companion_cube> are we not the same??
<discord1> <Perry> The Matrix gateway is the part that seems to be pretty bad. Not non-functional, just really slow.
<discord1> <Perry> 30 seconds to relay the messages etc.
<companion_cube> eeek
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<discord1> <Perry> But this is actually kind of workable.
<discord1> <Perry> Before it was stripping markdown though. Do you see the underlines I just put around the word underlines?
<companion_cube> nope
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<discord1> <Perry> That remains irritating. It would be good if markdown was transmitted unmolested.
<discord1> <Perry> Among other things, an obvious thing to do would be to have an IRC client that does markdown.
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