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<companion_cube>
another day, another dependency on ppx removed \o/
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<oni-on-ion>
=)
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narimiran_ is now known as narimiran
<DanC>
I'm looking for an equivalent to `npm init` or `cargo new` for ocaml. It's not clear where to go from https://ocaml.org to find it ... https://opam.ocaml.org is my first guess, but I'm not winning there...
<DanC>
"Given that most of the OCaml ecosystem is now built with dune, nixpkgs includes a convenience build support function called buildDunePackage ..."
<octachron>
with the nuance that I would advise to install merlin without question (except if you are only planning to hack on the OCaml compiler itself)
<DanC>
re merlin... yes, I like merlin a lot... it was a pain when a collaborator upgraded a project to ocaml 4.09 and merlin wasn't compatible. Do those folks talk to each other?
<narimiran>
DanC: why so negative?
<companion_cube>
because it's a mess compared to other languages, I suppose?
<narimiran>
companion_cube: there's a mess in every language i have tried
<companion_cube>
have you tried rust? 🙃
<narimiran>
but every language has its own mess
<narimiran>
companion_cube: briefly, until i couldn't comprehend it anymore :D
<companion_cube>
I mean, tooling wise, it's just so much easier to set up
<narimiran>
"do i need this 'rust' package, or 'rustup', or 'cargo', or ....?"
<companion_cube>
still infinitely easier than opam
<Armael>
what's the point of whining on irc though?
<companion_cube>
soothe one's nerves
<DanC>
google for "rust language" ... big "get started" button... curl rustup ... cargo build / cargo run. pretty straightforward path. Now granted, rust doesn't have a pre-web legacy, but yes, that is the sort of thing I'd like to see.
<DanC>
whining? negative? really? I'm asking for information. This is considered negative behavior?
<narimiran>
i'm sure ocaml stuff would be better if only some mozilla-like company would continuously invest in it. (this goes for other languages i mentioned earlier too)
<companion_cube>
maybe not, you also have to have a will to move tooling forward :P
<narimiran>
on the other hand, F# has microsoft, and their documentation/introduction is also a mess
<Armael>
sorry if I came through as a bit agressive DanC ; what I mean is that noone is thinking "ah yes we will have a really bad user experience for ocaml users that's going to be great", it's mostly historical reasons and the result of limited people-power
<narimiran>
and lots of F# tutorials just assume you're coming from C# and your familiar with the whole .net thingy
<DanC>
it's entirely reasonable if things are fragmented... 2nd law of thermodynamics being what it is. I'm just trying to learn what the landscape is.
<Armael>
and afaik no one is getting paid to maintain websites and docs
<Armael>
and companion_cube has no excuses since he knows that but stills complains in a frustrating fashion :p
<companion_cube>
what's the point of whining about me on IRC, Armael ? :)
<DanC>
the OCaml software foundation seems to fund some documentation efforts. (ironically, they seem to have two different web sites...)
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<DanC>
I wonder how much money flows thru the python software foundation... ah... $2.9M in 2015.
<DanC>
vs. "Our current objective is to reach a funding level of $200K per year, to be split between actions directed at "teaching OCaml"² and general OCaml actions."
<DanC>
I suppose somebody is getting paid to maintain reasonml docs. (odd choice of name... googling for reason doesn't work.)
<companion_cube>
I imagine someone at facebook is, yeah
<narimiran>
i just wanted to mention reasonml to you
<simpson>
narimiran: FWIW there are several different perspectives to software. For example, I think that all software is bad and that humans have no idea how to write code. This isn't a popular opinion, and you'd probably find it "negative" too, but I find it immensely useful in day-to-day life.
<narimiran>
i would say that that's quite a popular opinion ;)
<DanC>
_all_ software? interesting. Surely Sturgeon's law applies... 80% of everything is drek. Depending on experience some folks turn that knob to 90% or 95%... but... 100%?
<simpson>
DanC: I have, for example, a very nice category of compilers, for which I have been unable to write down a single non-identity program. I'm sure that such compilers *exist*, but I have no idea how humans could possibly reach them.
<simpson>
narimiran: Nope, but they sound like a reasonable and balanced person with a useful perspective.
<narimiran>
:)
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<DanC>
in what way is seL4 bad, simpson?
<narimiran>
btw, DanC, about "lol two websites" etc., wait until you find out about several versions of stdlib :D :D
<companion_cube>
several philosphies of stdlibs, even
<companion_cube>
(o/ Armael)
<DanC>
several stdlibs is a straightforward consequence of the 2nd law of thermodynamics...
<DanC>
but for one organization, whose raison de etre is to bring a community together, to split their web presence is something else
<narimiran>
what's the difference between 3 and 2 for static typing?
<oni-on-ion>
subtraction =)
<narimiran>
oni-on-ion: :D
<DanC>
yeah... why only 2 for static typing for ocaml? fixed.
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* DanC
demotes python to 1
<narimiran>
you should give nim a 3 then too
<narimiran>
and i still don't understand what would 2 represent?
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<companion_cube>
java-level types? :D
<companion_cube>
(or, Go-level types)
<DanC>
2 for static typing would be something like Java... yes, java has static typing, but lots of folks cast to Object and back, and there are nulls... not much of a curry howard feel
<narimiran>
yeah, not quite. there are some libs/attempts, but it is more clunky than in ocaml/F#
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<DanC>
maybe 3 should mean: a sound type system
<narimiran>
:)
<DanC>
and somewhat expressive; i.e. not unityped
<narimiran>
btw, what's the point of this table? in the end you will choose your next lang based on the points received?
<DanC>
I think maybe I gave ocaml a 2 because the type often doesn't tell you what *cannot* happen the way it does in haskell. a function that returns unit might launch the missiles, etc.
<DanC>
the table is a tool for reflection
<simpson>
narimiran: FWIW I used similar rubrics when I was leaving Python and shopping for a new language. I wanted to be *really* sure that it would be worth the effort of creating something new and not using what had already been built by others.
<narimiran>
simpson: and what did you choose? :)
<simpson>
narimiran: I helped break ground on Monte. For our first reference interpreter, we used the RPython JIT toolkit; we've started on a new interpreter in OCaml.
<DanC>
first following the 0th, which was in ordinary python, yes?
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<simpson>
Very technically, yeah. Each time around, the interpreter's responsibilities shrink. The first bootstrap was 100% Python, then RPython with a Monte prelude, and now OCaml with a Monte compiler and linker, not just a frontend.
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<Leonidas>
simpson: heh, yeah, I sort of migrated to that opinion as well.
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<Leonidas>
DanC: That reminds me of 0install where they investigated what to port to and checked out a lot of alternatives and landed at… ocaml. curious.
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<Leonidas>
DanC: what does `ocap` mean?
<Leonidas>
I have to admit that I pretty much disagree on your assesment of (at least) flow and possibly typescript
<Leonidas>
every time I looked at some JS code with odd types people started to explain me in very complex terms all the issues that Flow has
<simpson>
"ocap" is short for "object-capability". Capability-aware systems where bundles of capabilities are managed by objects.
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<DanC>
flow matches the way I like to write JavaScript. not sure what to tell you.
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<companion_cube>
I thought it was more or less dead and that TS had won?
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<Leonidas>
DanC: Maybe the difference is different when you write your own code, but plumbing together existing code always ended up a mess in my experience.
<Leonidas>
companion_cube: yes, at work our frontenders seem to have migrated away from Flow
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<DanC>
yes, flow more or less lost the war. I'm forever choosing betamax over VHS.
<DanC>
plumbing together existing code is a mess, true enough, but in my experience, flow just exposes the mess; it's not the cause
<DanC>
so... I want to port a PEG parser to ocaml. what library should I use?
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<companion_cube>
I have no idea, but can it fit with angstrom?