<d_bot>
<stab> But couldn’t tell u why it’s being used
<d_bot>
<stab> Seems to be a way to go from like a mnemonic of words to private keys etc
<d_bot>
<stab> I guess for memorization, recovery , etc
<d_bot>
<stab> Pretty common for bitcoin wallets
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<def>
it means there is a source file bip39_english.ml that should be linked as part of this build target
<def>
(compiled & linked)
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<d_bot>
<dj charlie> thank you!
<d_bot>
<dj charlie> makes sense
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<brown121407>
Why does this give a syntax error: match 263 with Curses.Key.backspace -> ();; ? Curses.Key.backspace is an int with the value of 263.
<brown121407>
This works fine (disregard the exhaustiveness warnings): match 263 with 263 -> ();;
<octachron>
Pattern matching works by checking the static shape of data whereas `backspace` is a runtime variable.
<octachron>
This is a syntax error because `Path.To.variable` is never valid in this context.
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<brown121407>
octachron: thank you
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proletku1tura is now known as lonelyc
<lonelyc>
just wondering, do pepople see any ethical issues with using JaneStreet's libraries? has there been much discussion of this? on the one hand, they seem like a company that is very devoted to "the good" when it comes to CS. on the other, they are a quant firm, which means they are directly related to the sort of problems that have plagued the USA since 2008. of course, i don't see any ethical wrongdoing in
<lonelyc>
merely using their software, but i'm working on an app that will be quite useful for others in my field, and creating that kind of dependency on such a company could be problematic. thoughts?
<def>
But it is really creating a dependency on such a company ?
<def>
Just using a computer means you really depend on companies which are much worse than JaneStreet. While using code released by JaneStreet does not tie your product to them... I would worry more about the overhead, the maintenance work and potential portability problems associated to their libraries.
<lonelyc>
well, what i would be creating is something more like a collection of libaries, so in a way it would be
<lonelyc>
thats a good point to make
<d_bot>
<craigfe> Even supposing JS are a particularly unethical company – which I don't think they are – I'm not sure that using their open-source software particularly benefits or validates their work in other sectors. (At least not in first-order effects, there's presumably some benefit in terms of publicity for them.)
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<d_bot>
<craigfe> e.g. an open-source dependency is not like buying things from Amazon, where some might argue that there's a direct reinforcement of company policies that are considered unethical.
<lonelyc>
true
<d_bot>
<craigfe> It would be just as well to say "Should I avoid using OCaml, because in doing so I am helping improve an open ecosystem in a way that benefits the interests of private companies"
<d_bot>
<craigfe> I suspect a good chunk of the reason JS open-source so many of their libraries is in order to foster the OCaml ecosystem generally, and I think that's hard to argue with 🙂
<d_bot>
<craigfe> as with def, I think the major concerns are ones of social and technical dynamics of maintenance, not of ethics
<brettgilio>
Generally speaking, software ethicality is not dependent upon the source of that software. JaneStreet's ethical problems and successes are not related on a first-order way to the software they make which is libre.
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<brettgilio>
You can apply the same logic to buying food lonelyc. There is no guarantees of helping in an ethical fashion, as the source of that food is abstracted away from you.
<brettgilio>
It's not first order
<brettgilio>
You could of course grow all of your own food, but then by that same logic I assume you will soon build your own computer from scratch and implement the operating system, BIOS, and program the CPU too
<brettgilio>
of course this is extreme (for some)
<lonelyc>
for sure, i guess what i'm specifically concerned about is that the target audience for this is activists -- but then again, they are also using plenty of software produced by big companies
<brettgilio>
lonelyc: Using the products of capitalism does not invalidate people who wish for capitalism to change.
<brettgilio>
I'll leave that there, and suggest we move the discussion to something else.
<lonelyc>
for sure, thanks for the thoughts
<brettgilio>
:)
<brettgilio>
lonelyc: I am curious what you are making though
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<lonelyc>
it's something that the ideas are still developing, and i'm not sure if i will do it in ocaml (which I'm new to but already enjoying very much), or c++ (which i'm experienced with but hate using). in short, it is a diagrammatic visual programming environment for collaborative "cognitive mapping" (a term of Fred Jameson's), as a tool for (technically proficient) artists and activists prototype software that
<lonelyc>
may help them solve certain design-related problems
<cemerick>
lonelyc: you're not alone in having these sorts of nagging concerns, but I agree with brettgilio that usage is generally ethically neutral
<lonelyc>
cemerick *hugs*
<cemerick>
if your audience/interest were explicitly contra modern finance capitalism, then I might say otherwise
<cemerick>
e.g. it would be hard to justify using tech from any large financial concern if you were building tools for local community banking or whatever
<brettgilio>
lonelyc: Sounds neat. I hope to see it sometime
<cemerick>
project sounds dope :-)
<lonelyc>
brettgilio: for sure! i will draft a proposall for the idea and create a working prototype hopefully in the next month and will share it with you guys
<cemerick>
lonelyc: sounds like "scrivener for programming"?
<lonelyc>
sort of... if you know max/msp or puredata it will be something like this, but based on categorical logic (which ocaml of course is perfect for)
<brettgilio>
My current project is an IRC server in OCaml trying to emphasize s-exp style configuration, support Linux/BSDs, to be very performant, and conform to as much of IRCv3 as possible.
<d_bot>
<ostera> lonelyc does this have to do with Spivak's ologs?
<lonelyc>
ahhh ok ok, a friend recommded his book... would you recommend it?
* d_bot
<ostera> is silent
<brettgilio>
ostera: It is a little different from what lonelyc is thinking of epistemologically
<brettgilio>
but
<brettgilio>
they do indeed have percieved similarities
* d_bot
<ostera> is unjinxed
<d_bot>
<ostera> yeah, in general ontologies can be a lot to work with
<d_bot>
<ostera> especially if you're just prototyping stuff
<d_bot>
<ostera> but it'll depend on what they are trying to prototype: is it information heavy systems?
<brettgilio>
I've read a little bit of Jameson from my readings of critical theory, but im not overly aware of his work like lonelyc might be
<brettgilio>
so he will be best to answer
<brettgilio>
Unrelated, is Unix the plural form of Unix?
<lonelyc>
well, its really up to them to decide what to prototype with it. strangely, category theory has gained popularity in some left-wing circles due in part to its recent popularity in continental philosophy, and i'm both someone who has a background in visual programming languages and activism, so its both a tool i want for myself but also one i would like to share
<brettgilio>
lonelyc: "recent popularity in continental philosopy" Alain Badiou intensifies
<lonelyc>
hahah exactly
<brettgilio>
He is a favorite of mine
<lonelyc>
i was a student of his, and am a part of the general mileu surrounding him
<brettgilio>
lonelyc: I'm no student of his, but I feel very strongly to his writings.
<brettgilio>
Though he and I do disagree on some ontological considerations of mathematics
<brettgilio>
mostly around ZFC
<lonelyc>
its good to see that more and more people from the sciences are discovering him
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<lonelyc>
it seems that the fog of sokhal is lifting a bit
<brettgilio>
lonelyc: That mess ended Sokal's career
<brettgilio>
it completely overshadowed everything we ever did
<lonelyc>
re: ZFC, i agree... he's a bit too close to bourbaki there
<brettgilio>
he *
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<brettgilio>
I think Sokal really believed he had something scandalous to show, but it just ended up making him look like a fool and effectively ended his career.
<lonelyc>
wow, i didn't realize it backfired on him
<brettgilio>
lonelyc: I mean, he still teaches. But nobody associates his actual scientific research with him anymore. Before Derrida died, he too said "Sokal should have kept doing physics. It would have sustained his relevance"
<brettgilio>
Anyways, lonelyc I've got to go. privmessage me sometime, or email me at brettg@gnu.org I'd be happy to keep this conversation going
<lonelyc>
re: ontology of ZFC, i think that badiou's partitioning of logic and mathematics between phenomena and ontology, placing category theory in the register of logic, is much too restrictive
<lonelyc>
brettgilio: for sure, i'll shoot you an email :)
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<d_bot>
<ostera> does Menhir have any built-in functionality to dump what's been read for debuggin purposes?
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<d_bot>
<ostera> I know my parser is the one that's erroring out, but other than a `Parser.Error` exception I'm empty handed
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<d_bot>
<ostera> hm. I guess my question is "what's the right way of raising errors in a parser's .mly file"
<companion_cube>
there's a OCAMLRUNPARAM for that iirc
<companion_cube>
for seeing lexer tokens, at least
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<d_bot>
<ostera> at this point I'd be happy to hotwire the lexer and just dump the tokens
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<companion_cube>
try OCAMLRUNPARAM=p ?
<d_bot>
<octachron> @ostera , you can use the intertpreter if you know which tokens trigger the error. Or you could start to write an error message file.
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<d_bot>
<ostera> @octachron i guess that'd be the "right" way
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<d_bot>
<ostera> @companion_cube that worked! I can see all the tokens pushed through the lexers when running `dune runtest`
<d_bot>
<ostera> unfortunately when I run my binary direclty with that I don't see anything before the exception, so the parser must be crashing right before the first token goes through
<companion_cube>
ostera: cool!
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<d_bot>
<ostera> both typecheck fine, but the second one gives me e a parse error
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<NewbieDan>
Hey, anyone on here familiar with getting ocaml on Gentoo Linux?
<NewbieDan>
Guess Not
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<d_bot>
<hcarty> I'm not sure how common Gentoo is within the community at this point, but if you start from opam it should work roughly the same as most other distributions
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