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<rick42> hey pil peeps!
<rick42> sad to see tim johnson leave the ML :(
<rick42> or anybody for that matter
<Regenaxer> Hi rick42! Yeah
<rick42> Hi Regenaxer!
<Regenaxer> :)
<rick42> sometimes when i get busy, i don't want to see ML bursts in my inbox or get notified when *every* email is received (ML or not)
<rick42> so i just have a sorting rule that puts ML email into a folder and i look at it when i have time
<rick42> so simple
<rick42> i think maybe people get frustrated with email wrangling and "take it out" on the ML. lol
<Regenaxer> Reasonable, yes
<rick42> I hadn't noticed anyone unsubscribing during periods of ML inactivity. :) It's the opposite case.
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<Regenaxer> Yes, I noticed that too
<Regenaxer> People are reminded that they don't need it
<beneroth> hey rick42 o/
<beneroth> hi Regenaxer :)
<Regenaxer> Hi beneroth!
<beneroth> well.. same when you bill them for a ongoing service they forgot
<rick42> yes. there is not enough time to do "all the things"; so, we have to choose. i dislike those choices because it means that i can't do some things that i would do if other things didn't compete for my time. otoh, those other things are about cultivating relationships with others -- the things I "leave behind" are usually the "selfish" ones. lol
<rick42> beneroth: o/
<beneroth> numero #1 regret of dying people: not taking enough time for themselves, stuff important to them personally
<beneroth> one of the practical life lessons of self-employment: opportunity costs. the (not just monetary) cost of not doing A but doing B instead, or vic versa
<rick42> beneroth: agreed. i have prioritzed my relationships (eg. with duaghter, wife) over other things (so that o won't regret it later :)
* beneroth certainly would like to extend his life a few centuries
<beneroth> aye!
<rick42> hehe
<beneroth> matrix: the problem is choice :)
<rick42> lol T
<beneroth> and as with all choices: all options might be legitimate, the important thing is to do a consciousness, willful choice
<beneroth> (I believe)
<beneroth> you are free to do whatever you want, but you have to handle the consequences
<rick42> i'm trying to work my way to "there is no spoon", but i'm a million miles away :D
<rick42> T dat beneroth
<beneroth> nothing is true, everything is allowed (hashashims)
<beneroth> hehe
<beneroth> one must not lose oneself, or the connection to practical reality with such pondering
<rick42> T my wife is the practical one. she will maybe-not-so-gently remind me of things :) lolol
<beneroth> the eager student comes to the zen master: I meditated 30 years! Now I can levitate and fly over the river there! The master: You stupid one, you could have done better use of that time!
<beneroth> rick42, good pairing :D
<beneroth> s/done/make
<rick42> nice zen master story!
* Nistur glances in here and then wishes he hasn't.
<rick42> Nistur: lol
* Nistur 's brain cannot deal with this stuff right now
<Nistur> reminds me of... the... sphinx? in Mystery Men
* beneroth doesn't know about Mystery Men.
<beneroth> nice to see you Nistur :)
<beneroth> how is it going? you're back on track, or trying to find the one with your train on it?
<Nistur> hello beneroth :)
<Nistur> Um, my life is somewhat crazy right now. At work, we're currently trying to push out one game (we've submitted the disc version, and are working on a day 1 patch, which has to be shipped before the end of the month) while at the same time being full time on another project (work for hire for another company) and at home having a 2 month old baby
<rick42> mystery men. i had to look it up. now i want to watch it. (i like wes studi too) thanks Nistur
<rick42> wow go Nistur!
<Nistur> in what miniscule amount of free time I have, I've been playing with a bit more pil, but unfortunately I find it difficult to do much in the 10-15 minute chunks of time I have. I _did_ have a bit more time for some lispy stuff, as I persuaded work to allow some time once a month for 'personal development', but as it was supposed to be something that would potentially be useful for the company, pil
<Nistur> unfortunately didn't tick the boxes (I really would need it to work on consoles) so I've been playing around with ECL in that time instead of pil, which made me a little sad
<Nistur> rick42: I haven't seen Mystery Men in probably 15 years. I hope it holds up to my memory for you!
<beneroth> Nistur, interesting. I've got no baby, but else I'm kinda in similar situation.
<beneroth> but it gets better
<beneroth> good luck to you, Nistur. You will make it!
<beneroth> pilDB might be useful for planning/handling of resources/story/game artifacts (outside of the game tech on the console)
<beneroth> for more it substantial work would be necessary (except maybe for android dev...)
<beneroth> brb
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<Nistur> beneroth: wb
<beneroth> ty
<Nistur> beneroth: Unfortunately, pil's architecture doesn't make it suitable for running on console, or developing for console, as all console SDKs (even Sony's now) only run on Windows. So I have to be a bit picky about what tech I can potentially use
<beneroth> yeah I fully understand :)
<beneroth> even sony now? they used to be on BSD.. didn't know that changed so much.
<Nistur> also, for consoles specifically, they have very specific toolchains, Switch and PS4 are based on clang, so the environment has to support a generic clang, not be locked to a specific version of LLVM/clang (which some are)
<beneroth> for my needs (business web applications) pil is perfect. functionally extremely powerful DB, and very flexible, easy to maintain
<Nistur> PS4 is still BSD, but the toolchain only has a Windows version, unfortunately
<Nistur> I _think_ Switch is a Linux box
<Nistur> but again, the toolchain is only Windows
<beneroth> afaik yes
<beneroth> nvidia standard chip
<Nistur> s'a Tegra X1
<Nistur> I can telnet into the Switch devkit :P That is definitely a busybox Linux box
<Nistur> but
<Nistur> it's probably not the switch itself, it's probably a companion 'computer' for dev connections
<Nistur> (a lot of devkits work like that)
<beneroth> there was a switch hacking presentation on the CCC two years ago
<beneroth> some game had a browser you could trick into connect to your own website.
<beneroth> though in the end they cracked it by hardware hacking... underclocking the circuit to get it slow enough to read the decryption steps, something like that
<Regenaxer> Pil could be ported to a console similar to PilBox on Android perhaps
<beneroth> it surely could
<beneroth> but not enough benefits when you have to compete with well established, highly proprietary existing stacks
<Nistur> Regenaxer: my issue is that I want to be at least a little productive, so I don't _really_ want to have to hack stuff apart entirely to try to get it to work. My requirements are that it works on Windows natively (no WSL), that it can build with clang/llvm (and ideally MSVC for XBOne support) and have easy interop with C. I think these are the "only" 3 things that stop me using pil for this... all of
<Nistur> them could be solved, but I don't have the time to do so
<Nistur> although, I think the C interop _might_ work, I cannot remember how pil64 does it under the hood
<Nistur> but I have the feeling that even that might not work as expected on consoles
<Regenaxer> I would be surprised if they don't use the standard ABI of the CPU
<Regenaxer> so native should work
<Nistur> Hmmm ok :P So that's one down ;)
<Regenaxer> I believe it would be nice to have a REPL on the console
<Nistur> I very strongly agree :P
<beneroth> the major obstacle is likely the OS, and OS-stuff like fork/sockets/fctl/pipes, not raw C or CPU, right Regenaxer ?
<Nistur> Maybe I'll see if I can get pil working at some point. It would certainly be nice if I could. But at this point, I think it will fulfil different role in my life :) Which is fine, no silver bullet and all
<Regenaxer> beneroth, right
<beneroth> Nistur, you "only" do implementation, not game mechanics or such, right? for that pil might be more useful than excel :P
<Regenaxer> Then something like mini or ersatz can be used
<beneroth> does mini have pilog?
<Nistur> as PS4 is BSD, and Switch is Linux, they _technically_ have things like BSD sockets, but most of the things are wrapped in a proprietary SDK that you're meant to use, which is why C interop is important
<Nistur> beneroth: Um. I mostly do gameplay type stuff
<Regenaxer> yes, mini and ersatz have pilog
<beneroth> oh nice. pilog might be useful for game logic
<Nistur> I very very very rarely have to use a spreadsheet
<Regenaxer> mini even has "db.l", in-memory only
<Regenaxer> iirc
<Regenaxer> I experimented with it a while
<Nistur> Hmmmm... Regenaxer... how much of rcsim is X specific, and how much could be using 'any' framebuffer type thing...? (was thinking it'd be fun if I could make it work on PS4...)
<Regenaxer> indeed :)
<Regenaxer> I think only the lowest part reads/writes buffers
<Regenaxer> Could be ported relatively easy
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<beneroth> [OT] x-ray pictures leaked / found weakly/unprotected in the net (german):,RcF09BW
<beneroth> betrifft Bayern
<beneroth> 46 nations affected
<beneroth> [OT] ah yes and in case anyone cares, RMS stepped down from FSF (as far as we know) because of some SJW mob and fake news bullshit.
<Nistur> yeah, I saw that. I mean, to be fair, he's had it coming. He's rude, abrasive, and never seems to think about what he's saying... but at the same time... the reason him stepping down from FSF (and MIT!) is... rather overblown
<freemint> [OT] beneroth, it was not just SWJ mobs, also some technical people i really appreciate were part in this. Had a twitter deabte about this. Not fun
<beneroth> yeah everything overlaps. SJW and technical people overlap. technical people and "hacker" overlap. SJW and autistic introverts hardly overlaps.
<beneroth> this isn't necessarily bad.
<beneroth> as I understood, the current case is about stupid remarks RMS did in the past, and that he defended Minsky (the founder of "AI" beside Lisps McCarthy) who was on Epsteins island and allegedly Epstein set one of his victims on Minsky, though its unclear if anything happened from that (there are claims Minksy turned the woman down).
<beneroth> not wanting to debate this in detail, just to say
<freemint> I was aware of everything you said.
<beneroth> my current understanding: RMS steps down from free speech org FSF because of an hypothetical discussion of an hypothetical immoral situation on a (semi?-) "private" mailing list of MIT
<beneroth> the point is not the this case or any case details
<beneroth> I just observe that a lot of fake news / misquoting / anti-free speech (in meaning of freedom to do hypothetical and/or advocatus diaboli discussions, not US-style free speech) culture going on
<freemint> my current understanding: RMS was step down because he said something technically legally wrong in defending Minsky which made him look like defending pedophilia and since he has said things in the past which are pro pedophilia it was finally enough to unite a large enough colatition of people against him from several other exploits to get him kicked.
<beneroth> yeah
<Nistur> back on topic: If anyone wanted to try and get it working on Switch, there is no horribly convoluted approval process to get a Switch devkit, unlike consoles of old, where you had to trek to an obscure buddhist monastery and study there to be allowed access to their secret SDK or something (well not really) and the devkit itself 'only' costs $500 I think (again, devkits used to be in the $2k region I
<Nistur> believe)
<beneroth> pedophilia as psychological term (sexually-oriented towards pre-puberty minors) and what mass media and (in this case) US law makes out of it (any sexual association with a legally minor) are quite different things
<beneroth> Nistur, good to know!
<beneroth> thanks for this exciting info!
<Nistur> XBOne is also relatively simple, but I care less about that :P
<beneroth> Nistur, I think consoles go the same route game engines are already on, the same mobile is on for a long time: it's a platform for devs, and you need to attract the devs...
<freemint> Nistur why are you interested in PicoLisp for consoles?
<freemint> anything that weakens the fsf is good on my book if it prevents the creation of a GLPv4.
<beneroth> you are against GLP, freemint ?
<beneroth> or is there something bad about GLPv4 ? I haven't heard about a coming new GLP...
<freemint> I am against GLPvX where x != 2
<beneroth> why?
<freemint> because it destroyed the GPL
<beneroth> I mean, what are the details you believe are a problem?
<freemint> Samba and the linux kernel can't share code even though both a GPL
<beneroth> I forgot the diff between 2 and higher...
<beneroth> GPL3 is more specific, and I guess Samba is 3 and linux 2?
<freemint> Yep
<beneroth> the main problem there is that the copyright is so wildly distributed, else the copyright holder (the community of devs = everyone who has code in the project) could just re-license
<beneroth> but of course this inability to re-license might also be an advantage in some contexts :)
<Nistur> freemint: I'm a gamedev, and I'm interested in developing in lisp :P I want to try doing some gamedev in lisp
<freemint> Nope the problem is that the GPLv3 was an over reach by FSF and they introduced terms which where not acceptable for the linux community
<beneroth> Nistur, why no job at naughty dogs?
<beneroth> freemint, which terms or link?
<Nistur> beneroth: If I could...
<beneroth> sincerely asking, I guess I should inform me on the detailed differences...
<Nistur> unfortunately, it's not really an option for me right now :P
<beneroth> freemint, though I guess I will share release my code as MIT/BSD (useful libs and stuff) and AGPL (stuff I want to sell / sell around)
<freemint> beneroth would be a good start
<beneroth> ah I don't like videos, they cannot be seeked, i can read faster :/
<beneroth> thanks though
<freemint> It's 9 minutes, i could google "linus torvald gplv3" to find some article which says the same thing but the video is really on point.
<beneroth> ok thanks, I will watch it and do the google search using the terms you proposed
<beneroth> thank you, much appreciated :)
<freemint> here is 2:34 version which cuts out some stuff
<beneroth> perfect, thank you
<freemint> sadly the good reasons come in the longer version
<freemint> (comparing the videos now)
<beneroth> ok
<beneroth> this one makes me see GPL3 as a more specific version of GPL2, with meaningful additions:
<beneroth> watching the long video now
<beneroth> Linus has a good point in differing between the goals of FSF and the linux kernel project
<beneroth> the goal of RMS and FSF (so far, haha) was kinda abolishing any kind of computing the "device owner" cannot "control" (inspect, change, etc.)
<beneroth> (in my understanding)
<beneroth> the goals of Linus and also e.g. the open source movement are quite a bit different in spirit and application
<beneroth> freemint, good points, as you said
<beneroth> though I don't see GPLv3 as bad (how FSF have marketed it I don't know, and might have been improper)
<beneroth> just different tools for different purposes
<beneroth> I completely understand that Linus wants to allow Tivoziation, so Linux is more widely used (and most development happening in Linux in these days is afaik drivers.. so handling proprietary hardware)
<freemint> Also GPLv3 made the software licensing world more complicated. Before GPLv3 you could ignore all licensing stuff and just put your code under GLPv2 and all you would have to care about is: (if (gpl_compatible? License) (use_library) (don't_use_library))
<beneroth> well now it is (gpl2_compatible? License) (use_library) (don't_use_library))
<beneroth> hardly more complicated to be honest
<beneroth> people just expect now that they have a right to use whatever they find online. it's not so. the people who made it can freely choose the terms on when and how their product should be able to be used.
<freemint> Yeah but do you pick GPLv2,GPLv3 or "GPLv2 or later" for you project. there is no longer a safe choice.
<beneroth> well, "or later" is always an insecure bet
<beneroth> same as "version X or above"... version above of the library might be a malicious maintainer handing you malware
<freemint> Good, also if you picked it, you could not recieve code from ither GPLv3 or GPLv2.
<freemint> Interestingly GPLv2 or later is the license pushed by FSF while they had GPLv3 in their back hand
<beneroth> "GPLv2 and later" practically forces changing to GPLv3 license, to be able to incorporate GPLv3 patches, right?
<beneroth> (or have a wild forests of forks around, which is bad for practical adaption of the software)
<freemint> Well, yes, if you put it under on GPLv2 or later entropy will push it to GPLv3 only, only one person has to be a fsf zellot and push a GPLv3 only patc.
<beneroth> well you can ignore that patch and continue on your GPLv2 codebase. it is not practical, but entirely possible and legal.
<freemint> Yes
<beneroth> bullshit for Linux because impractical
<beneroth> on the other hand, BSD is also bullshit for Linux because it would spawn a wild forest of Linux forks (all valid Linux'es, under BSD-license) which are incompatible
<beneroth> and the main benefit of Linux, beside the nice social aspects RMS/FSF like about it, is a compatible de-facto standard platform for understandable computing
<freemint> I disagree with that notion, BSD has another fatal flaw though
<beneroth> how so? isn't the fatal flaw of BSD to allow for take-over via forking?
<beneroth> in my mind, it makes totally sense to have "infrastructure" parts as I call it, basically stuff you want to spread and be widely used, to be BSD. hence BSD is the right choice for picolisp language.
<freemint> The fatal flaw is that BSD can be hired away. This happended several times. Here is the scheme: Hire a BSD developers for good money promising they can still contribute to BSD in their free time. Work them to the bone for 2 years and give them no free time. They can no longer contribute effectively after that because the closed source fork has drifed from the open fork.
<beneroth> the risk remains that picolisp might oneday split into multiple dialect, same as the original Lisp. which would be prevented by e.g. GPL (but GPL would hamper practical usability in the current legal system, so adoption would suffer)
<beneroth> freemint, yeah, that is possible. can be done without even hiring any of the original devs
<freemint> There is no inherent forking problem in BSD. It is just that forks have another way to stay alive: making a fork lcosed source and sellling it.
<beneroth> yeah
<freemint> I personally find the BSD license a bit to restrictive too.
<freemint> (or rather most BSD licenses)
<beneroth> how so?
<freemint> This is because i do not care about attribution to me.
<beneroth> well then do it like tankfeeder, publishing your code under "public domain insofar I legally can do so"
<freemint> There a public domain equivalent licenses which like WTFPL, Unlicense or 0BSD(my prefered version) which just say: You can do it with it what you want not additional conditions also please do not sue me.
<beneroth> the attribution clause main function is probably not about keeping you in mind, but to prevent someone else distributing work in your name / your projects name which is something different
<beneroth> the problem with this is: depending on jurisdiction, I as a user of a shared piece of code, are required (to do it properly, to be safe from any lawsuits) to check if any of the functioning of this code (which I got as BSD or GPLv2 or so) is patented.
<beneroth> with GPLv3 I don't have to do this checks
<beneroth> (I can take regress on the person giving the stuff under GPLv3)
<freemint> The problem is that "public domain code" has a lot of bad smell to lawyers (i disagree with this blog deeply)
<freemint> *post
<beneroth> public domain anything has probably a bad smell to laywers, makes them superfluous
<freemint> Well said
<beneroth> well there is a valid point on that article
<beneroth> "Under basic contract law, a gift cannot be enforced. The donor can retract his gift at any time, for any reason—scant security for someone intending to make long-term use of a piece of software."
<beneroth> it's a bug in the legal framework we would say, but yeah
<beneroth> but
<beneroth> if I use something from tankfeeder, and he follows this laws to retract his previous given permission to me to use his stuff for whatever I want...welll.. I really don't think this will upheld in court, at least not in Europe legal tradition where intent and the "spirit" (like intended reasonable meaning) of a law matters, not word games.
<beneroth> well one I'm aware (or should reasonable be aware) that he re-tracted his stuff.. hm.. maybe then I should indeed cease to use the stuff.. maybe.
<beneroth> I guess there are no precedence cases xD
<beneroth> might be applicable if tankfeeder would be a company and be bought by oracle
<beneroth> copyright expirations should just be down to 10 years like the originally were
<beneroth> problems solved
<beneroth> the cause and issue is the overly big influence of wealth concentrations (both companies and families) on the laws of society
<freemint> Yeah ... but i think we to wait for death of the boomers in the US before this can happen
<beneroth> well at least you could discuss rationally with them, even when they might have had horrible views. this SJW culture goes against rational discussions, and without the framework for rational discussions, arguments and matters don't matter anymore at all.
<beneroth> and this will just lead to absolutism, not utopia.
<beneroth> s/arguments and matters/arguments and views
<beneroth> their cause is good, but without tolerance for imperfection there cannot be progress
<beneroth> perfectionism turned absolutism is sterile death.
<beneroth> reality is not so simple, even when all wished it to be.
<beneroth> which, yes, is an argument against the absolutist stance of RMS and FSF :)
<beneroth> I argue we need absolutist stances, in the sense of "aim for the impossible to reach the possible" (which you just thought to be impossible too). but the important detail is if you allow for other systems and meanings to exist in parallel
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<Nistur> If my 'personal development' stuff actually ends up being/doing anything, then I'm going to have to look into licenses... I have come to an agreement with my boss that we can, if we desire, release any of our personal development stuff as open source, as long as it's with a non-commercial license
<Nistur> I usually go for zlib for my personal stuff, as it's nice and concise, pretty much "do what you want, but if it goes pear shaped, don't blame me. Oh, and if you use it, it'd be nice to get credit, but if not *shrug*"
<Nistur> gamedev is fiercely protective over stuff, even stuff that they will never use (Sony refuse to release Naughty Dog's GOAL code, even though they will never reuse it, for example)... so any work done during work _has_ to be with a non-commercial license, perhaps GPLv2, to calm the business peeps that no-one's going to run off and beat us to releasing the same thing earlier or something
<Nistur> in theory, if someone wanted to use the tech for commercial use, as the company would maintain copyright, they could relicense it how they wanted for commercial use on a per-case basis
<Nistur> but yeah, first I have to actually make a thing first
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<freemint> beneroth, sorry family had my attention. I do not see the future as bleek as you do.
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<beneroth> freemint, np. let's hope you will be right :)
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