<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: atben: bumped PCB and fab version numbers to 110330, for consistency with atusb http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/7e51234
<Jay7>
tuxbrain: there is small possibility for me to attend on LinuxTag
<Jay7>
I can try to bring it there.. but I'm still unsure
<Jay7>
well, I should go now
<Jay7>
afk for some hours
<whitequark>
tuxbrain: regarding the nanonote, there really is a law which forbids importing of unauthorized crypto devices
<whitequark>
but for NN, this is not the case AFAIK, as that law only applies to _hardware_ crypto devices
<whitequark>
there is no AES/etc. in processor itself, and no wireless devices or others which include crypto cores
<whitequark>
so, while I'm of course not a lawyer, it should not require any action for sharism to distribute NNs in russia
<whitequark>
in this particular case, it's probably just greedy customs wanting a bribe
<wpwrak>
whitequark: seems that someone didn't get the drift
<wpwrak>
whitequark: atben/atusb will be fun. they have AES in the transceiver. luckily, even the US .gov has realized that this isn't a treat to them and have lifted the export restrictions that existed previously for that chip. (last time i checked, they still had them for quite similar chips from TI)
<whitequark>
wpwrak: I'm sure they know perfectly what is really legal and illegal. they just want more money
<whitequark>
regarding the atben. i don't know much about export restrictions, and the bad thing here is import ones. basically they do it because they want to know that there is a way to decrypt anything you'll transmit in reasonable time
<whitequark>
i think that ssh with a certain key length is technically illegal too
<wpwrak>
whitequark: good luck enforcing that ;-)
<whitequark>
anyway, all these restrictions aren't there to prevent illegal activites. they exist just to get a reason to blame someone
<whitequark>
i.e. "everyone is criminal"
<whitequark>
something like that
<whitequark>
wpwrak: there are more problems with wireless modules. unless you are using an already-done wireless part, you'll need to get a certificate for it
<whitequark>
in US/Europe you need "FCC Approved" mark too AFAIK
<wpwrak>
it seems that you can bypass import restrictions in many cases by labeling such things as "kits" (i.e., unfinished)
<whitequark>
regarding the AES, well, no one is bothered about that. probably the people you'll work with here won't know what AES is
<whitequark>
hm. it should work in the ISM band then, I guess
<wpwrak>
it probably also helps to keep the (declared and intuitive) value low
<roh>
whitequark: ignore us exports. just import only.
<wpwrak>
it's ISM, yes. 2.4 GHz
<whitequark>
wpwrak: well, you can actually sell them as kits, why not?:) it's fun soldering smd rf parts!
<wpwrak>
whitequark: that would be one choice ;-) heh, tuxbrain, are you listening ? maybe keep a few parts kits for really difficult cases :)
<wpwrak>
whitequark: perhaps the absence of a case and instead a pack of silicone would make it plausible enough that it is truly a kit. of course, the RF side would be all made and tested ...
<whitequark>
wpwrak: selling a board separately from case, huh. that's truly russian way of solving such problems
<wpwrak>
whitequark: i take this as meaning "clever, ingenious" :)
<whitequark>
this too, of course. but the main meaning of that phrase is "a clever (and a little absurd) solution which was only required because of meaningless, and perfectly absurd, problem which came out of stupidity"
<wpwrak>
sounds perfectly fine to me :)
<wpwrak>
we have that sort of stuff in argentina as well. once, i made the mistake of trying to mail-order some gadget (a sharp zaurus) with payment from my bank account in argentina. first of all, whenever money crosses the border, this is not something one can do just via e-banking. no, you have to go to the bank for this.
<whitequark>
that's even funny... first several times. it isn't when practically everything is done that way
<whitequark>
you can encounter a whole stack of absurd problems, depending on each other and first on the last
<wpwrak>
second, in this case, you actually have to go to the bank's office for foreign commerce (i.e., not just to the next branch office), fill out something like four forms, and present them a quote for the purchase. furthermore, you have to return to the bank once you have received the goods, and show them the customs forms, so that they can verify that you did indeed use this for an import, and close the transaction.
<wpwrak>
now, in this case, there was a snag. the product wasn't available anymore. so the distributor returned my payment. unfortunately, it came from a different account than the one to which i had paid. the bank refused to accept these two as "matching". so they requested some additional verification (forgot what that was), but then considered that also this wasn't enough.
<wpwrak>
in the end, we worked out the following deal: they would unblock the returned payment, i would then withdraw this, go to another bank, buy a cheque denominated in yen (that's what the original payment had been in) for the original amount, then go back to my bank, and they would cash the cheque and cancel/resolve the transaction.
<wpwrak>
lesson learned: never use an account in argentina for such transactions. instead, usw an account money abroad, where all this is done with a mouse click.
<kyak>
tuxbrain: the guy has only one option - go to the customs office himself and fight-fight-fight, and hope for the luck
<kyak>
knock the doors, write claims and so on
<tuxbrain>
kyak, Jay7, whitequark I'm also pushing on my side, with the UPS and my local courier at my side as angry costumer, last time I had problems of this kind, finally I was able to convince autorities NN was a fucking dictionary, let's see If I succed this time again.
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: which country was this ?
<Jay7>
russia
<wpwrak>
Jay7: your ben ? :)
<Jay7>
no, my ben come from CELF
<Jay7>
w/o any problems but delivery was 2 month
<wpwrak>
Jay7: a problem in itself :)
<Jay7>
problem is in russian customs law and customs people
<Jay7>
e.g. it may be stolen on customs
<Jay7>
so tuxbrain is lucky because he got NN back
<Jay7>
only really working way is delivery with some relative :)
<Jay7>
someone who flight from spain to russia e.g.
<wpwrak>
Jay7: seems that in the current case, the prospective owner will cross the border often, and expects to be searched.
<wpwrak>
Jay7: not sure how realistic this assumption is. do russian customs really go through your luggage looking for undeclared cryptographical devices ?
<Jay7>
wpwrak: not your luggage
<Jay7>
parcells
<wpwrak>
Jay7: around here, they're mainly interested in valuables or drugs.
<Jay7>
if your parcel contain something which may do crypto it going to hold
<wpwrak>
Jay7: so traveling shouldn;t be an issue then
<Jay7>
waiting one month for some 'notification' (possible only for organization, not for physical person)
<wpwrak>
Jay7: yeah, similar to argentina. ship anything with a power cord and it's likely to cause trouble. carry it with you and nobody cares.
<Jay7>
if there was no notification, they are sent parcell back
<Jay7>
wpwrak: they are CRAZY
<wpwrak>
Jay7: "broker" = the guy who arranges the bribe, correct ?
<Jay7>
I have no better words :)
<Jay7>
wpwrak: kind of :)
<whitequark>
Jay7: so are you from russia too?
<wpwrak>
Jay7: you;d feel right at home in argentina ;-)
<Jay7>
almost all customs brockers have some ways to go through customs but with some bribe :)
<Jay7>
whitequark: yes :)
<Jay7>
wpwrak: hm.. I like that country more and more :))
<wpwrak>
Jay7: we have better weather ;-)
<Jay7>
sure :)
<Jay7>
wpwrak: what about some job for opensource guys? :)
<Jay7>
in argentina I mean :)
<Jay7>
I've talked with lawyer btw some time ago
<Jay7>
official import of anything will increase price about 50-200%
<Jay7>
so.. no way
<whitequark>
Jay7: how do you think, would the 'kit' trick work?
<Jay7>
whitequark: may be.. something like developer kit, developer sample or (as tuxbrain said) dictionary
<whitequark>
I mean, for the RF parts
<whitequark>
to aviod certification
<wpwrak>
Jay7: (open source jobs) locally, the situation is piss-poor. but you have the internet ...
<Jay7>
you shouldn't do certification if you have no plan for sale
<Jay7>
iirc
<Jay7>
wpwrak: .. then I may work from any place of the world :)
<wpwrak>
Jay7: (official import) 50% doesn't sound all bad. around here, we have about 50% of import taxes. consumer electronics are often sold at about twice the US price, sometimes more. nice margins, wouldn't you say so ? :)
<Jay7>
wpwrak: same thing here
<whitequark>
Jay7: I thought tuxbrain was going to sell them. not for profit, probably, but that still counts as sale
<wpwrak>
Jay7: (any place of the world) that's basically what I do ;-)
<Jay7>
whitequark: I have no prob with certification
<wpwrak>
whitequark: i very much hope he does make some profit :)
<Jay7>
and personally I have no prob with crypto notification
<Jay7>
I'm just lucky seems :)
<whitequark>
wpwrak: sure :)
<tuxbrain>
whitequark: don't guet confused I love copyleft hardware philosophy but I'm doing this for profit than will one day eventually apear some place :P
<tuxbrain>
Btw what do you thing is the cripto they have detected in NN?
<lars_>
ssh
<lars_>
;)
<tuxbrain>
lars_: ouch!
<wpwrak>
rot13 ... no, it doesn't have that :)
<Jay7>
tuxbrain: they are looking for possible crypto application of device
<Jay7>
i.e. if device have CPU capable to run some crypto code it may be decided as crypto device
<Jay7>
they are crazy as I said before
<whitequark>
tuxbrain: practically that's better imo. when one's going to make profit, he usually does things much better than some fanatic :)
<Jay7>
sure there are some non-crazy people who doens't holding things w/o real crypto apps
<Jay7>
but you know.. there are some crazy people who doing this
<whitequark>
Jay7: is that true? I've never heard of _that_ stupidity, and that looks like ravings of a madman
<whitequark>
I mean, about 'possible crypto uses'
<Jay7>
whitequark: I'm sure they have some devices list/categories
<Jay7>
but I'm sure any embedded motherboard may be hold on customs as possible crypto device
<Jay7>
as any PDA, phone, etc
<Jay7>
but most of wide-used devices already have 'notifications'
<Jay7>
so they have no problems
<Jay7>
new or non-wide-used devices have problems usually
<whitequark>
phones are already certified crypto devices
<whitequark>
as most modern pdas have wifi/gsm module, they should be too
<whitequark>
btw, the map is impressive
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: (corruption) those lame colombians :)
<kristianpaul>
lol ;)
<whitequark>
any turing-complete cpu may run some crypto code, hm. and you can get a turing machine with your brain, pen and a piece of paper. they definitely should forbid all of the above
<Jay7>
we have lot of laws that are actively used only for bribes taking
<Jay7>
e.g. law about personal data security
<Jay7>
it have nothing common with real data security
<Jay7>
you just should buy special software/hardware or pay for certifications
<Jay7>
good is that small business are out of area of interest :)
<kristianpaul>
hmm rusia have same paypal issue like in colombia (not allowed to receive money)
<kristianpaul>
:(
<rm>
hey kristianpaul
<rm>
what was the question again
<kristianpaul>
hi
<kristianpaul>
tuxbrain: sent a Nanonote toa  guy in rusia
<kristianpaul>
as this is a microcomputer that have a cryptographic software installed by default
<rm>
ok... aaand
<kristianpaul>
Nanonote will come back to spain
<rm>
do you have a confirmation it is declined by customs?
<kristianpaul>
FSB/customs seems have laws about this stuff
<kristianpaul>
So i wonder how do you get the lemote, or if you have some recomendation/tought with this issue
<kristianpaul>
THe goal will be dmitry get his nanonote
<kristianpaul>
rm: are you in russia right? :-)
<rm>
yes
<rm>
I never heard of any such problems
<kristianpaul>
oh, really :o
<rm>
people in russia order devices like Chinese iPads by 1000s
<kristianpaul>
So what you think happened?
<lars_>
wpwrak: tr A-Za-z N-ZA-Mn-za-m
<rm>
and we were purchasing Lemotes in 3 separate shipments, no problems with either of those
<rm>
and one person received Efika MX too
<rm>
etc etc etc
<kristianpaul>
okay, please stay here, i'll sure more question will rise about this topic
<rm>
is the guy also here?
<kristianpaul>
you think is better ship the nanonote from china instead of spain  may be?
<kristianpaul>
dunno
<rm>
so my suggestion for now is to not use UPS
<wpwrak>
lars_: you ... crypto-terrorist !!!
<rm>
Lemotes were shipped using EMS
<rm>
and other products I mentioned routinely come by regular post
<rm>
(with tracking)
<kristianpaul>
Any toughs about UPSÂ Â there?
<rm>
also I would suggest to not send him a refund
<rm>
until QI actually gets the device back
<rm>
how do you know what he says is even true
<kristianpaul>
i dunno, tuxbrain may explain that later
<Jay7>
rm: I have no such problems before too
<Jay7>
but I know people who can't get some device because there is no 'notification' on customs
<tuxbrain>
rm no but I can suggest him to connect,  whatever I have talked directly with that guy, tomorrow I will recive answer from UPS, so you suggest better regular post better than UPS in case of Rusia?
<Jay7>
ah
<Jay7>
I've missed
<Jay7>
tuxbrain: was it UPS?
<rm>
not sure
<tuxbrain>
I will also ask the guy if the have any document about that rejection from customs.
<Jay7>
UPS doesn't doing delivery to physical persons in Russia iirc
<rm>
but I believe UPS is by far the less common method of shipment to Russia
<wpwrak>
fedex are usually quite good at avoiding the minor annoyances
<rm>
usually it's either the regular post, or EMS
<rm>
and perhaps both of those know special tricks on how to work with customs
<rm>
rather, EMS knows
<tuxbrain>
mmmm ok I will take this in acount on next shipment
<rm>
and the regular just has a huge volume
<rm>
and is not looked through too strictly
<rm>
that's just guesses
<Jay7>
yes, I got my NN here via regular post
<Jay7>
and efika mx via fedex
<Jay7>
but I'll prefer EMS this time just because of speed
<Jay7>
well.. because of regular post slow speed :)
<viric>
hm some times I forget to join the channel
<tuxbrain>
roh I have readed the slides, and well... the first one seems more interesting than second one, take note on the "seems" due I have really not understand nothing from the first one , the second one CoRE, is about the aplication level and I have understand it slightly better and I found it a little "light" but I don't know if it's because there is no real specification yet or because of the author want's to keep it as it is for coherence with the targ
<tuxbrain>
et audience
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak: which is the distance btwenn pins on the atusb-prg? yes I can try to print a atusb on paper and mesure it but I'm a fucking lazy spaniard
<roh>
the chip on that chibiduino board seems the same like on the atben/usb
<roh>
well.. its the 'old' version 230 not 231.. but i think they were pin-compatible.
<roh>
in the end they should be able to communicate with each other.. so that board is like a perfect fit if people want to build own stuff to talk to the atben or atusb
<roh>
dunno how easy these boards are available. or if it makes sense to order a larger number to europe from japan
<roh>
i guess these guys have other problems there right now. i dont dare to even mail him right now. akihaba hackspace in tokyo does support-work right now. building and giving out solar lamps and such
<tuxbrain>
auch japanish? I though they where US... japan customs are also a nighmare ....
<tuxbrain>
roh: oh man...:( I will keep an eye on updates to see if they publish that list of needed items and if I can help in some way.... a 10% of happened there happens in spain, riots and madness and robbery had caused more victims than the event itself ... I admire japanish people...
<tuxbrain>
a 10%-> if a 10%
<roh>
tuxbrain: true.
<roh>
yet i was very happy when i got note of my friends there being on a plane to the us
<roh>
took quite some work to get them to leave
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: (atusb-pgm) 100 mil. see also ben-wpan/atusb-pgm/ :-)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: if sharism.cc won't do any production of ben-wpan, then adam should send you his samples. they include two atusb-pgm boards.
<wpwrak>
roh: (230 vs. 231) they're not exactly pin compatible but very similar. the 230 has a few quirks that have been solved in the 231. e.g., that an incoming new frame can overwrite an old frame that's not been retrieved yet.
<tuxbrain>
100 mil=100 milimeters? I don't think so... what unit is mil.
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: units 100mil mm
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak: (atusb-pgm boards) ok for me but just one is enough
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: mayme you know them as "thou". the australians call them that way. in the us and most other places, it's mil, though
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: (atusb-pgm) you want a backup for when it breaks :)
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak: I will make my machine then :P
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak: equivalence in milimeters please ...
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: 1 mil = 1/1000 inch; 100 mil = 2.54 mm
<tuxbrain>
ok so practically the standar distantance that now undestand why has such fancy amount :)
<wpwrak>
yeah ;-)
<wpwrak>
you also get 6, 8, 10, etc. mil traces and such
<steve|m>
wpwrak: thanks by the way regarding the mini usb lib, worked fine
<tuxbrain>
there are plenty of pins  on my shelf and also protoboards (those to solder with holes) with such distance so I can make my own , the led +resistor has only the function to aknowledge something is happening isn't it? we can live without that if needed.
<wpwrak>
steve|m: great ! :)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: yes, you don't need the led. of course, it helps if you can see when things are done without having to look at the pc/ben.
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: btw, how many atusb will you ask the pcb fab to make ?
<tuxbrain>
500
<tuxbrain>
now they are multiple of 10 :)
<wpwrak>
okay, good
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: you'll also need the samples adam has for setting up the testing process
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak: yes that would be good
<tuxbrain>
I will have my wpan NN ! yay!
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: for testing, what equipment will you have access to ? voltmeter, oscilloscope, spectrum analyzer, usrp, vector signal analyzer/generator, ... ?
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: you should just get everything adam has (i.e., 2 atben, 2 atusb, and 2 atusb-pgm). you can always send him some production units later.
<tuxbrain>
that's for sure :) his falcon eye can see things that we can just imagine :P
<tuxbrain>
falcon or better said elf :)
<wpwrak>
;-))
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: he hasn't commented on the boards yet. so i guess he's really overloaded and didn't have time to look at them yet, or he didn't spot any obvious problems.
<tuxbrain>
I think the first one is very probable, but we can't also dismiss your blacksmith skills :)
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak:(equipment) hahahahaahahahaahah
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak: ah no , are you talking seriously?
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: well, was kidding about the vector signal thingy. they tend to be expensive. think sports car. pricy sports car, not just some cheap BMW ;-)
<tuxbrain>
ok volmeter.... and ..... a volmeter.... and.... yes is the same volmeter
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: but for the rest, what do you have access to ? (own / can borrow / they have it at the smt fab)
<tuxbrain>
I will ask smt fab, they "invite" me to their instalations to record the mounting process of the boards with the cam
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: (invite) excellent. it's also good if you can test at least some board immediately when they come off the line. that way, you can spot mistakes that might just trash the entire run.
<wpwrak>
s/board/boards/
<tuxbrain>
but even having access to the devices... I don't have idea on how to use them, I had used an osciloscope once about 15 years ago
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: oh dear ;-) do you know people who have such things, either at home, at work, at their university, ... ?
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: an oscilloscope would be useful for detecting why a problem board fails. there are a few typical patterns you can spot easily (i.e., within seconds)
<tuxbrain>
they are funny things with a bright green dot than somtimes move
<tuxbrain>
and a lot of buttons
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: modern scope have that big "auto" button that does all the setup for you. works most of the time ;-)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: now, a spectrum analyzer or usrp would be useful for checking RF performance. you can also use an atben/atusb for that, but it's a lot more convenient with a spectrum analyzer
<wpwrak>
(usrp can act as a spectrum analyzer. if you know people at a university or at companies that do RF R&D, you may want to ask them if they have an analyzer or an usrp)
<tuxbrain>
Ok I have some candidates that can have some of that :)
<tuxbrain>
I will ask them
<wpwrak>
they would also know how to operate it. since your run is small, there shouldn't be a problem for them to let you spend a few hours in their lab.
<wpwrak>
perfect
<tuxbrain>
is sleepy
<roh>
yay. friday. weekend
<tuxbrain>
gn8 guys, I will dream with green bright stripes and a alot of unknown and magical terms like spectrum and megaherz
<wpwrak>
gigahertz ! :)
<wpwrak>
roh: weekday, weekend, it's all a blur, isn't it ? :)