<kristianpaul>
(rmmod) how they could.., that a so _void_ argument, well, thinking in pro of AVM,  i wonder if you can imponse that some how, in a extreme case by warranty void is module removed or something, same as when you root a phone..
<kristianpaul>
but violate copyright, how come... :S
<wolfspraul>
we see what happens. it's a nice self-referential argument. if I first claim that you have no license for my proprietary component, and then I claim that you also have no right to remove it, that's a nice one :-)
<wolfspraul>
it's in line with their lawyers saying that "avm provides all gpl sources so people can do whatever they like with the software, just not on our devices"
<wolfspraul>
but of course I do understand their side, they will claim that a 3rd party messes with the integrity of their product, leave a lot of stuff in the GUI still saying 'avm', but changing functionality...
<wolfspraul>
a lot of those things have never been thought through in earnest by free software folks, maybe because so few of them actually run a company :-)
<wolfspraul>
it's a nice way to point expensive customer support problems at your competitors...
<kristianpaul>
(modded GUI with avm), i see, thats a fair point
<wolfspraul>
for copyleft hardware, I think we should design everything from day 1 so that it is very easy to re-brand the device including software under a new name
<wolfspraul>
actually I'm already doing that, removing unnecessary references to sharism, trying to pull brand names into fewer places so they can be renamed easily
<kristianpaul>
hum i still wondering where i can read sharism ;)
<wolfspraul>
brand names and the use of trademark law arguments in legal disputes go against the ideas of the GPL and free software in some places. so I think best is to separate them clearly.
<kristianpaul>
indeed
<wolfspraul>
so anybody has the chance to either reuse a brand name, or make a new brand name. And whatever choice they make they then have to be able to hold up to trademark disputes.
<kristianpaul>
but.. is not linux a trademark, so, how you could include modules/blobs with other trademarks and not deal later with it?, or do i miss the point here?
<wolfspraul>
don't understand
<wolfspraul>
I think if you would take an AVM box, remove any references to AVM on the box, in any software GUI, etc., then AVM wouldn't care or even have started this legal case
<wolfspraul>
but this other company and AVM are quite intertwined, my understanding is that they add certain features to the AVM box, but the entire experience of the box is still an 'AVM experience', and AVM doesn't like that.
<wolfspraul>
which I can understand
<kristianpaul>
the copyright that AVM claim for the linux module then use code with trademark from then?
<kristianpaul>
ah, okay
<kristianpaul>
i see it now
<wolfspraul>
so now, as in many legal cases, they come up with whatever logic their lawyers can come up with to make their point
<wolfspraul>
I just specifically like the argument that 'rmmod module' violates the rights of the owner of the proprietary module. that's a good one :-)
<kristianpaul>
he, thats a bit hard some times, imaging removing Link sys brading from my router that run openwrt if therically want to comercialize a product with a custom firmare :-)
<wolfspraul>
you make removing your thing a violation of your thing. that way you can force whatever you want upon the other side. Now they only need to get the court to agree :-)
<kristianpaul>
afaik some buffalo routers ship/uses dd-wrt, i wonder what agreement they did..
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: yes exactly. If you go on to sell those 'linksys' routers under that brand name with modified firmware, sooner or later linksys will not accept it.
<wolfspraul>
whether they can win the legal case I don't know
<wolfspraul>
they will claim it's a whole system, where you may claim that the linksys box is just the hardware...
<kyak>
xMff: ping
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (saw it in the news, yes) sounds like a very tricky case. it may get decided on technicalities.
<DocScrutinizer>
moo
<DocScrutinizer>
never knew AVM is "on the dark side"
<wolfspraul>
DocScrutinizer: so what is Nokia's plan with the N9?
<DocScrutinizer>
hi wolfspraul
<DocScrutinizer>
I don't know, really
<wolfspraul>
they announce it and then?
<DocScrutinizer>
it's the stillborn concept from my PoV
<wolfspraul>
how open is the OS compared to N900?
<wolfspraul>
can you rebuild an entire image from scratch? how many binary blobs?
<DocScrutinizer>
look, inofficial mantra for N900 always been "it's not a phone, it's a computer". For N9 things seem to have changed to "This is not a computer (or NIT), this is a me-too-Android"
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: I have no idea about how open this maemo-meego-harmattan chimera is
<DocScrutinizer>
obviously still a lot of blobs
<wolfspraul>
the N9 software side/community is not connected to N900?
<wolfspraul>
I lost overview over all the twists and turns in their software...
<wolfspraul>
well it will all be dead soon, but I'm wondering where to look for the best bits and pieces, if any, for future projects
<wolfspraul>
is any significant or interesting stuff going upstream anywhere, or manages to create a small community around itself?
<DocScrutinizer>
no, it's not BL-locked. You can choose "open mode" any time, you just have to accept an arbitrary number of core functions will cease to work then
<wolfspraul>
or is it all tied to the titanic?
<wolfspraul>
ok but let's assume this will all be dead soon. all paid engineers let go or reassigned to wm.
<DocScrutinizer>
gustloff
<wolfspraul>
which part can survive?
<DocScrutinizer>
not titanic
<wolfspraul>
are there any significant/interesting things that were developed as free software and can survive?
<DocScrutinizer>
maemo community can survive, on N900 carefully treated like a treasure
<wolfspraul>
which parts see the heaviest upstreaming efforts?
<wolfspraul>
is it possible to port maemo to n9?
<DocScrutinizer>
should, modulo the closed stuff mainly core apps like dialer, calendar, contacts
<DocScrutinizer>
but then that's probably meego-harmattan in the end
<DocScrutinizer>
see URL above
<DocScrutinizer>
content comparision
<DocScrutinizer>
only common denominator seems to be Qt
<wolfspraul>
hmm
<DocScrutinizer>
and, surpise surprise, that's the main new SDK the ship with N9
<wolfspraul>
do you think the Maemo community can survive with Nokia corporate support/sponsorship totally gone?
<DocScrutinizer>
QML actually
<DocScrutinizer>
aiui
<DocScrutinizer>
I think they *could* but will bleed out til zombie state
<wolfspraul>
so N900 will proudly follow the FreeRunner?
<DocScrutinizer>
yep
<DocScrutinizer>
one big fsckng deja-vu
<DocScrutinizer>
every single gory detail of it
<DocScrutinizer>
my dreamy hopes are on N950, as Nokia wouldn't have developed that device just to deliver 250 devel-devs to community. They must have plans to eventually market it
<wolfspraul>
that's not the N9? yet another one?
<DocScrutinizer>
this would open a perspective for new devices coming from Nokia so the whole linux thing isn't tagged with its own date of extinction, and also the device is attractive enough to keep maemo community alive
<DocScrutinizer>
the device they actually have for contractors and community to develop on it for N9 yet to come
<DocScrutinizer>
for a long time everybody thought this will be next device and N900 successor
<DocScrutinizer>
rumour has it they got CE cert problems, and also some yield problems or sth
<DocScrutinizer>
so can't sell it to mass market (yet?)
<wolfspraul>
I know you are in this for a long time, but for me it's too many twists and turns and renames and stuff. I just wait until it's all dead and then see what can be resurrected in new products :-)
<wolfspraul>
I bought the original N770 years ago. that was a good start. then it went into all sorts of directions, until today :-)
<DocScrutinizer>
I'm hoping to get one, by support of Nokia employees supporting my application for one of the 250
<wolfspraul>
needs a phd to understand how it all connects together (or not)
<wolfspraul>
maybe some pieces of reusable free software will survive
<DocScrutinizer>
(N770) yeah, Nokia really knows how to kick balls of their community and act like 3 stooges when it comes to marketing
<DocScrutinizer>
(reusable sw) not really much aiui
<wolfspraul>
yep
<wolfspraul>
expensive lines of code :-)
<wolfspraul>
but we take anything, right? even 100 lines that someone sunk 1 billion into writing... :-)
<DocScrutinizer>
yep. though you definitely want to talk to mickey about that, he's way better on that domain
<wolfspraul>
I have no specific plans, just wondering what happens and where reusable pieces might be.
<wolfspraul>
primarily my starting point is the NanoNote, then add things to that
<DocScrutinizer>
he already reused part of that intel phone stack
<wolfspraul>
so N950 has a keyboard, but N9 is touch-only, I guess
<DocScrutinizer>
yes
<DocScrutinizer>
N9 = capacitive mt with 848*480 AMOLED
<DocScrutinizer>
n950 is classical, but same resolution
<DocScrutinizer>
is there anything like a DNS-ping tool? To evaluate answer/RTT delay of my DNS?
<GNUtoo>
hmmm I guess dig or nslookup don't count as ping tool?
<DocScrutinizer>
esp they don't do multiple lookups of different addresses, and time that
<DocScrutinizer>
I got web browsing slow as geotectonics, and I wonder is it caused by laggy servers not delivering content, or is it my DNS delaying each resolve query for the usually dozens of advert banners etc
<DocScrutinizer>
hard to tell apart from watching browser fetch a webpage
<DocScrutinizer>
which would mean it's probably general thruput / bandwidth issue
<DocScrutinizer>
OTOH ct.de was fast like hell
<GNUtoo>
for me the anti trusted computing video is fast
<GNUtoo>
but I've add-block
<GNUtoo>
and I've my own dns too
<DocScrutinizer>
I guess sth is wrong with my DSL
<DocScrutinizer>
though even the mere view of the TPM video was completely strange, as if Google had a new page layout or dunno what
<whitequark>
saw some news about nokia releasing developer variants of n9
<whitequark>
is that a sort of agony?
<B_Lizzard>
heh
<B_Lizzard>
Most likely an uncompleted version of that scrapped Meego phone with the keyboard
<B_Lizzard>
So they fix whatever hardware issue it might've had and release it as a "developer" phone because obviously the software isn't up to snuff.
<mth>
DocScrutinizer: some IPv6 misconfigurations can cause DNS to be really slow (takes some time before it falls back to IPv4)
<DocScrutinizer>
mth: aah, maybe telecom did some tests recently
<DocScrutinizer>
I also had strange downtimes of several minutes on reconnect
<DocScrutinizer>
mth: thanks
<DocScrutinizer>
whitequark: B_Lizzard: see backscroll
<`antonio`>
Hi, I am trying to flash my image in my nanonote using the reflash_ben.sh script, but I have some problems: after the script has finish, when I boot it the screen becomes blank Â
<`antonio`>
is that normal ?
<`antonio`>
when i boot it there are some lines, and it says "starting kernel..." after that the screen becomes black
<wolfspraul>
`antonio`: not normal :-)
<wolfspraul>
do you have the latest xburst-tools and reflash_ben.sh installed?
<`antonio`>
yes
<`antonio`>
I am just recompiling the toolchain from scratch now
<`antonio`>
following the wiki
<wolfspraul>
recompiling the toolchain? wow
<wolfspraul>
that shouldn't be needed simply for reflashing your Ben
<wolfspraul>
oh wait, you have created your own image?
<`antonio`>
yes
<wolfspraul>
ahh. got it now. well then there's probably a number of things that could have gone wrong.
<wolfspraul>
unfortunately I haven't built my own image from scratch in a long time, so others may know better what to look out for
<`antonio`>
are there some specific packages or libraries I need to compile ?
<`antonio`>
ok
<wolfspraul>
your boot fails very early
<wolfspraul>
'starting kernel', I guess that means at least u-boot successfully loaded the kernel, then it executes it but that's it, it doesn't even start
<wolfspraul>
otherwise the kernel would display more messages, the next choking point would be to mount the rootfs, but you don't even get there it seems
<`antonio`>
yeh
<`antonio`>
so basically it's more a toolchain issue there must be something missing
<`antonio`>
is there a wiki for the packages required in the toolchain?
<wolfspraul>
not sure how that can affect kernel compilation
<wolfspraul>
which openwrt config file do you use as a starting point?
<kyak>
`antonio`: can you give more details about "blank screen"?
<kyak>
does it react to buttons? what about Ctrl+Alt+F1/F2? did you try pinging/sshing into it?
<`antonio`>
I tryed both but nothing
<`antonio`>
let me reflash it again
<kyak>
make sure you use your kernel and rootfs images with reflash_ben.sh
<`antonio`>
sure
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: ping
<wpwrak>
stefan_schmidt: moo :)
<DocScrutinizer>
wow, stefan_schmidt - HI!
<stefan_schmidt>
DocScrutinizer: hi, I _know_ you looked like a bot (wrt infobot name change)
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: hi
<DocScrutinizer>
hehe
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: who is Richard, the sub skeleton driver guy?
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: I'm getting frustrated with my other ieee802154 device which makes me more interested in getting a driver for atusb ready :)
<DocScrutinizer>
last time I did this with infobot in channel under name of Guest3464533, infobot grabbed the nickname DocScrutinizer immediately in reply ;-P
<wpwrak>
stefan_schmidt: richard = Richard Sharpe
<wpwrak>
stefan_schmidt: (other device) hehe ;-)
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: is he here in IRC?
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: Don't wanted to start a usb driver from scratch just because of my time pressure :)
<DocScrutinizer>
ooh I forgot to mention, N9 has NFC, whatever they use
<DocScrutinizer>
might be 802.15.4?
<wpwrak>
stefan_schmidt: naw, how only showed up here once or twice
<wpwrak>
stefan_schmidt: how bad is the time pressure ? i've finished the basics of what's needed to get a proof of concept atusb driver to work. there are some races, though.
<wpwrak>
stefan_schmidt: my next steps are to change the build process of the atusb fimrmware a bit, because i can no longer have identical object files for boot and application (too much overhead in the application's usb core, making the boot loader exceed its 4 kB)
<wpwrak>
stefan_schmidt: next, an atben driver that registers as SPI. that would also be an example for structuring the atusb driver
<wpwrak>
stefan_schmidt: do you have any atbens ? or only atusb ?
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: NFC sounds more like RFID
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: IEEE 802.15.4 has 10-100x the desired range ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
:nod:
<DocScrutinizer>
nfc about nfc
<DocScrutinizer>
all I know is there are at least 2 different standards
<wpwrak>
got some really nice spam: "McDonalds invites you to The Free Dinner Day"
<DocScrutinizer>
so dunno what they actually mean when calling it NFC nowadays
<wpwrak>
with a voucher in the form of a .zip and of course a .exe inside. i think we can all guess what the .exe would do :)
<stefan_schmidt>
sorry, working chat in the other window.
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: time pressure: already some weeks behind diploma schedule :)
<wolfspraul>
has anybody heard from Tuxbrain how atben and atusb sales are going?
<wolfspraul>
he is totally silent even though I ordered some boards from him :-)
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: So I would like to test any atusb driver you might come up with. Giving you a hand on fixing would be fine
<wpwrak>
the funny thing is, if they had actually attached some real-looking voucher, people may have stormed macdonalds, causing no end of trouble :)
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: only atusb devices
<stefan_schmidt>
I don't have a nanonote at all
<wpwrak>
stefan_schmidt: (weeks later) aw :(Â Â well, the sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up ... :)
<stefan_schmidt>
wolfspraul: well, with my six atusb I ordered 5% of the stock of these already. ;)
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: heh
<wpwrak>
stefan_schmidt: (atusb) all i have is richard's atusb skeleton. he said he'd work on it this week.
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: woould you be able to send me this with the other changes you may have?
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: he's in semi-vanished mode again. he popped up briefly 1-3 days ago, but didn't say anything about sales
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: the problem is a bit that neither of my devices works at the low level so I can start my actual work. :)
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: (work on it) great
<wpwrak>
stefan_schmidt: i've forwarded you his skeleton
<wpwrak>
stefan_schmidt: the problem he mentioned in his mail was a misunderstood return value. so his code did the right thing.
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: thanks a lot
<stefan_schmidt>
wpwrak: going to cinema now (social stuff you know) and will have a look after this
<wpwrak>
stefan_schmidt: i don't have any changes on top of it. all my stuff is in git anyway.
<wpwrak>
methril: otherwise, we'll have to synchronize electronically. hmm, have to prepare my laptop for travel ...
<dvdk>
trying to rebuild my toolchain with --enable-sjlj-exceptions
<methril_work>
wpwrak, i'm going to be there only the 29th
<methril_work>
then i've t ogo back home (work)
<wpwrak>
methril: oh :-( a busy man
<methril_work>
wpwrak, unfortunately i have no license to stay on Porto Alegre :(
<methril_work>
i'm really sad, because it was a good opportunity to know some Qi-people ;)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: seems you've found what you're looking for :)
<rjeffries>
wpwrak well, it is a kludge however
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: of course it is. what did you expect - an iKeyboard, hand-carved from a block of magnesium ? ;-)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: what you understand with binary reference clock  ?
<kristianpaul>
actually " frequency plan is based on a binary reference clock rather than the GPS chip clock."
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: hmm, do you have more context ?
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: do you have sige4162 evb/IC datasheet?
<kristianpaul>
but
<kristianpaul>
"The IF filter is centred at 2.556 MHz. The 1575.42 MHz GPS RF input is mixed down to a 2.556 MHz IF by a 1572.864 MHz LO (96*16.384 MHz). A complex mix to baseband is made with an internal NCO. The data is decimated and filtered by 4 to give 2.048 MSPS data, and serialized."
<kristianpaul>
i think it may add a bit more context
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: i'm _finaklly_porting namuru correlator to milkymist, but this sige chip is not the others
<kristianpaul>
i still having doubts about the samping clock value..
<kristianpaul>
wich is this case seems to be not the same as other old sige IC and other frontends, in wich asmpling clock is synchronized wiht the GPS signal
<kristianpaul>
for now i guessed sampling freq is same as sampling rate, so then 2.048Mhz
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: (data sheet) it seems i lost it :(
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: (data sheet) well, all of the sige ones. so i don't even know which ones i had