<wpwrak>
hmm, can i rename a page in the qi-hw wiki ? e.g., Ben_WPAN -> Ben_WPAN_Background (there's way too much philosophy before this comes even near any technical details)
<wpwrak>
and while the philosophy can be useful, it's not well written. (e.g., jumps from 3rd person to 1st person and so on)
<DocScrutinizer>
mediawiki page rename is a pita, I heard. Basically you copy and delete I guess
<wpwrak>
heh ;-)
<wpwrak>
well, what i'll do is make a static page in HTML, like i did for ubb-vga
<DocScrutinizer>
(business model) too late, dude, way too late ;-D
<wpwrak>
life is too short to wrestle with mediawiki :)
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: (shit blog) ah, i was afraid that someone may have had that brilliant idea already :)
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: maybe my plan B will work, though. post a daily video clip of the killing of a kitten. or has that frontier been crossed too ?
<DocScrutinizer>
3 years lated they invented arpanet
<tuxbrain_away>
please spread retweet, ident, facebook it, linkeding it, send to other related mailing lists, sumarizing spam it as far as your ethic can hold
<kristianpaul>
firt question for a coming FAQ, can i increase transmit power?
<DocScrutinizer>
MOAR POWER!
<DocScrutinizer>
anybody a good source for pogopins?
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: yes, but you'd have to add 1-2 chips
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: digi-key :) search for spring-loaded
<DocScrutinizer>
ta
<kristianpaul>
"While not an immediate project goal, it may be possible to write firmware for atusb that turns it into a transparent gateway for legacy operating systems and protocols."
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: (taxes) yes, once you've logged into the shop it knows where you live and gives you the non-EU price. nice idea, but confusing.
<DocScrutinizer>
while I can't do the yellow blob for 4.99, I still may drill additional holes in that one
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: do you like the "legacy" ? :)
<kristianpaul>
well. is a bit confusing, but surelly is my crazy english
<DocScrutinizer>
anybody a clue abut what e.g logitech is using for their proprietary 2.4GHz wireless mouse stuff?
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: but it dampened RF a lot. now we need to see if that is because of the sugru per se or because of the solvent in the sugru.
<DocScrutinizer>
sugru sounds like sago here
<wpwrak>
ds3: (atmel chip) open documentation, availability, low price
<kristianpaul>
hum, Sige was bought by skyworks inc
<DocScrutinizer>
is that sugru some playdoo stuff?
<DocScrutinizer>
never heard about it
<wpwrak>
ds3: (that's for the transceiver) for the MCU: mainly popularity in the community. i had a perfectly working design based on silab's 8051 chips before. but 8051 isn't quite as popular as avr.
<DocScrutinizer>
WUT?
<DocScrutinizer>
8051 is BASIC
<kristianpaul>
still like PICs ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
uaergh
<kristianpaul>
i never had a 80xx btw, so :-)
<DocScrutinizer>
get an atmel 89c1051 or sth like that
<DocScrutinizer>
awesome
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: (sdr) no, the at86rf23x don't do sdr. afaik, sdr is still big and high-power (well, compared to ben-wpan. you don't need to get a whole USRP, but still ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
20pin DIL, like 3 external components, GPIO can drive 16mA+ each
<DocScrutinizer>
for instance
<DocScrutinizer>
of course they have other formfactors and chip flavours as well
<kristianpaul>
atmel still not very widespread on my country, so, well i can run navre on the milkymist at least ;)
<kristianpaul>
oh right, namuru core adaptation for milkymist CSR here we go :-)
<DocScrutinizer>
there are exactly 2 things I hate til hell freezes over; assembling a device and then noticing you forgot battery, and soldering a plug to a cable and "duh the friggin hood"
<kristianpaul>
for now just one correlator, as seem with 12 it will eat 20k LE
<rejon>
tuxbrain_away, "Also, a lot of software work still needs to be done. The driver level code for 802.15.4 has been demo'd. A production test program is working which verifies that a board is not severly compromised.
<rejon>
There are a small number of programs to send and receive data. However, there's still a lot to do in order to have a useable 6LoWpan stack."
<rejon>
is that accurate still?
<wpwrak>
yes
<wpwrak>
what we have at the moment is a very basic IEEE 802.15.4 stack in the kernel. it lacks things like CSMA and ACKs, let alone encryption. so it's really *very* basic.
<wpwrak>
6LoWPAN code has been ported over on one or two occasions, but that's out of date now and was considered defective back then. so this needs another effort.
<rejon>
wpwrak, how are these tasks tracked?
<rejon>
how can people get involved?
<rejon>
(after buying one of course :)
<wpwrak>
the place to go should (still) be the linux-zigbee list
<rejon>
no i mean on this project
<wpwrak>
it's very quiet there, though
<wpwrak>
ah, our mailing list ?
<rejon>
so all the tasks are in your brain you are saying?
<wpwrak>
i actually spelled them out there :) well, not the details
<wpwrak>
the 6lowpan stack isn't qi-hw specific. so people who want to play with that should go to linux-zigbee
<wpwrak>
or, better, find some sponsoring for me, and i'll be glad to solve that little problem ;-)
<rejon>
yeah, that is what i'm getting at
<rejon>
wpwrak, i want to know the problems left and the next steps
<rejon>
do you want to tell me now, or add to the page?
<wpwrak>
my plan for now is to first clean up the infrastructure that's already in the kernel
<wpwrak>
starting with the at86rf230/231 driver (which doesn't support atusb yet, only atben)
<wpwrak>
then tackle the IEEE 802.15.4 protocol stack until it works properly. that should give us decent dirtpan performance
<wpwrak>
6lowpan is less certain. by the time i'm done with dirtpan working well, i should find me some real work. so i don't know it i'll have much time to work with 6lowpan.
<wpwrak>
what i'll do is contact atmel and see if they're interested in sponsoring such an effort, but i don't really expect this to lead anywhere
<rejon>
yeah, that atmel thing will have to be handled well so they don't get their hooks into it
<rejon>
wpwrak, i have another source that is interested too
<rejon>
i will follow up with
<rejon>
wpwrak, tuxbrain_away what about targets?
<rejon>
just send and see?
<wpwrak>
targets ?
<rejon>
i mean target market?
<rejon>
just hackers for now?
<rejon>
also, is there a case for the exposed circuitry?
<wpwrak>
(market) i think at the moment it's mainly of interest to the ben-owning community. i don't know about the ieee 802.15.4-centric market. it may be huge, but i don't know if these products are of interest to them.
<wpwrak>
no case yet. that's still under investigation.
<rejon>
ok great
<rejon>
how many did you guys make?
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain put sugru on an atusb but it dampened the signal considerably. then someone got his gadgets for a photo session and we have to wait for them to return before we can see if curing improved the sugru's RF transparency
<wpwrak>
i think something like 120 atusb and 135 atben. 3 atusb didn't work. all the atbens passed testing.
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away could confirm the exact numbers.
<rejon>
wpwrak, what about hardware improvements?
<rejon>
anything off the top of your head?
<rejon>
beyond the case
<tuxbrain_away>
rejon let me elaborate later on, but until we have a case defined and the software is not fully plug and play and atusb is not supported our main target is hackers and NN owners, then well let me elaboorate and alse will add to the study the reation of this "for hacker" releases
<wpwrak>
nothing that needs fixing immediately. one thing that's completely missing is certification. that may or may need hw changes.
<rejon>
great
<wpwrak>
the boards are a little tweakable: 1) you can make a one-way modification to add an U.FL connector (not for the faint of heart, but doable) 2) there is an unpopulated capacitor and a 0R resistor that can be used/changed for RF tuning.
<wpwrak>
besides that, i don't see any urgent need for hw changes. one could think of adding an RF amplifier, to extend the range. but that's significant new work (~2 more chips, and so on)
<wpwrak>
also, the transceiver supports antenna diversity, which could be interesting
<wpwrak>
meanwhile, there's also one competing chip that could be interesting. that one an internal balun, reducing the component count. but of course, totally incompatible in terms of layout and low-level driver.
<rejon>
ok, great
<wpwrak>
that's the sort of things to consider if tuxbrain gets a order for 100k+ units :)
<rejon>
and cleaned up the whole page, and added TOC
<wpwrak>
oh dear, direct irc quotes ;-)
<rejon>
i cleaned them up
<rejon>
wpwrak, tuxbrain_away this is some badass shit!
<rejon>
like totally perked me up
<rejon>
great work dudez
<rejon>
totally inspiring!
<wpwrak>
thanks :)
<rejon>
i gotta cop me some in brazil
<tuxbrain_away>
I have modified this due NN doesn't have USB host :P Until we have a case defined, the software is fully plug-and-play and atusb is supported on kernel main line, the market for the Ben WPAN units is hackers and Nanonote owners.
<rejon>
cool tuxbrain_away i already fixed
<tuxbrain_away>
regarding certification, when teh moment comes I have two colaborator on universities that can do so
<wpwrak>
rejon: page looks a lot better now. thanks !
<tuxbrain_away>
yeah thanks rejon :)
<rejon>
you guys did the hard work!
<wpwrak>
we can merge the remaining bits later
<rejon>
tuxbrain_away, wpwrak i started to rev up the press engine, but thinking might be better for batch 2
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: (university resources) always good to have :)
<rejon>
but come on, companies come out with vacuous announcements without products EVERYDAY
<rejon>
nerd channels better imo
<wpwrak>
rejon: yeah, we should release a roadmap with Ya and 2-3 successors firmly announced right now. wolfspraul ? ;-)
<tuxbrain_away>
to consider this a real sucess I have to get rid of this first batch by the end of the month :)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: two weeks ? wow :)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: btw, do you still have the sugru device or is it among the ones you lent to that other guy ?
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: because, if you still have it, you can just test with another atusb. the tests don't have to be atben-atusb
<wolfspraul>
dvdk: how do you know that it failed?
<dvdk>
lekernel: (/.) but it's already invisible on slashdot.org/recent even when going far, far  back. thought /. editors would only look at /recent. don't know for sure, though
<wolfspraul>
we wait a week then repost? :-)
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: but different article next time.  already building one up in my head.
<dvdk>
maybe wait 2 weeks.  what's the half like of memory in the average /. editor?
<wolfspraul>
dvdk: thinking about the /. editors, I cannot imagine that they just pick articles out of the incoming flow of posts
<wolfspraul>
I would do it in a multi-layer system where I first mark good posts, then later review them again, possible throwing out some more, and finally selecting based for inclusion on the frontpage so that the flow of articles on the frontpage is interesting
<wolfspraul>
that would mean - it could very well still pop up after a few days, like lekernel said. complete guess of course :-)
<wolfspraul>
they have to worry about the readability of the frontpage, a good mix of articles in different categories, etc.
<wolfspraul>
we will know soon :-)
<wpwrak>
my guess would be a ~24 h-ish timeout on /. after that, they may consider it not bleeding edge enough. maybe a few hours more.
<jow_laptop>
slashdots quality is declining rapidly
<jow_laptop>
also many dupes lately
<jow_laptop>
and articles pointing to crappy blog articles
<jow_laptop>
which seem to be solely made to get ad revenue
<jow_laptop>
typos, wrong summaries
<jow_laptop>
so I don't think the editors actually do editing anymore
<lekernel>
wpwrak, my milkymist article took 2 days to get through
<lekernel>
dvdk, "underdog" ...hahahaha
<wpwrak>
lekernel: yeah, right. so there's still hope for when they hit a slow spell ;-)
<lekernel>
maybe they're underdogs but:
<lekernel>
they have better technology (mmu, asic, etc.)
<lekernel>
they have better compilers and linux port, contributed by open source people (hahahahaha) compared to milkymist linux
<lekernel>
and they have much larger market share, publicity, etc.
<lekernel>
not bad for a underdog, he
<wpwrak>
dvdk: don't you want to use the new summary page at link target ?
<wpwrak>
dvdk: also, it would be good to mention that tuxbrain's prices are with EU taxes, which do no apply to non-EU shipments. since you're not the merchant, you can in fact just give the price without tax and mention that it is without taxes.
<wpwrak>
dvdk: (tuxbrain, being in the EU, may be legally obliged to show his prices with tax)
<tuxbrain_away>
wpwrak connecting atben to arduio pins directly can work in some way?
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: if you connect every pin, yes.
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: make a little PCB with an uSD holder that connects to a cable for 100 mil headers, and there you are
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: just make sure you really have power on VDD and that you can switch it on and off. the board should draw about 15-20 mA. so you want this proper power, not just a GPIO
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: if you don't have switchable power, add a transistor. BJT or FET, either ought to work fine
<tuxbrain_away>
arduino pins can give 40mA per pin so I think there will be no problem
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: no idea how that behaves. don't forget that the voltage can drop quite a bit if you really load these pins. so you'd get voltage variations that are synchronized with the transceiver activity.
<tuxbrain_away>
also instead of pcb we can adapt an uSD to SD adapter
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: (voltage) e.g, if you load a pin with 15 mA at room temperature, the voltage will drop by about one third. you're still above the transceiver's minimum supply voltage (1.8 V), but you're putting quite a bit of stress on the regulators
<tuxbrain_away>
will atben work at 5V?
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: of course not. nothing built since humans came down from the trees works with 5 V ;-)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: (uSD to SD) if you have an SD slot or an SD-to-GPIOs adapter, why not
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: (SD) the question is whether you have a full SD slot :) the two schematics you showed me didn't
<kristianpaul>
SpeedEvil: hi
<SpeedEvil>
hi
<kristianpaul>
sorry i was sleeping at the time you write my nick
<kristianpaul>
SpeedEvil: about the correlators, sure i'll implement all 12 as soon as i managed to use at least one
<kristianpaul>
use and sinthesize :-)
<kristianpaul>
the maxim chip looks interesting too
<SpeedEvil>
in FPGA?
<kristianpaul>
yes
<SpeedEvil>
In principle, you can do it on nanonote class hw
<SpeedEvil>
in software
<kristianpaul>
sure
<SpeedEvil>
but it's a lot of assembler
<kristianpaul>
i know, and thats a goal, for later
<SpeedEvil>
What's your general correlator architecture you're thinking of?
<kristianpaul>
gps receiver and some logic glue in a cpld, but may be not needed as seems dma capabillities of the SD-like slot are not so bad for sampling beyond 10Mhz..
<kristianpaul>
SpeedEvil: is called namuru
<SpeedEvil>
'GPS reciever' ?
<kristianpaul>
sorry
<kristianpaul>
gps frontend*
<SpeedEvil>
What bits of architecture?
<SpeedEvil>
I mean in the CPLD
<SpeedEvil>
Or are you just meaning to go serial->parallel-SD-like
<SpeedEvil>
Jitter is annoying - you absolutely can't lose a sample without knowing about it
<kristianpaul>
namuru is implementation of a zarlink gps correlator, gp2021 think
<kristianpaul>
(Jitter) hum well,the signal showed in the logic analizer looks sane it think
<SpeedEvil>
Ah - right
<kristianpaul>
serial to parallel aprouch in the cpld, yes, as the sampling data is synced in a sort of nibble
<SpeedEvil>
Ah - I misread.
<kristianpaul>
but that for when thinking in another board for making nanonote a gps-receiver
<kristianpaul>
now i'm focused on making all this work in the fpga
<SpeedEvil>
If you're doiung it with a FPGA - it's proably pointless, compared to a GPS module for consumers.
<kristianpaul>
well, we like take some risks ;)
<SpeedEvil>
It's interesting from other aspects though.
<kristianpaul>
also i dont see too much performance in the nanonote for correlating (using FFT i guess) 12channels..
<kristianpaul>
and i dont want mess with asembler again..
<kristianpaul>
may be implement the correlator on a small cpld?
<kristianpaul>
or a spartan3?
<kristianpaul>
who knows..
<SpeedEvil>
I was basically assuming a fairly nasty approach borrowing from bit-sliced DES ideas.
<kristianpaul>
as i said at least 20k LE seems to be needed, well that was for an altera fpga
<kristianpaul>
had you experience with maxim chip?
<SpeedEvil>
I have a sample - other than that no.
<kristianpaul>
as it is more like an "ADC"
<SpeedEvil>
This was so far a paper excersize.
<SpeedEvil>
yes.
<kristianpaul>
sample  = EVB or just a chip?
<SpeedEvil>
It relies on you doing all the heavy lifting.
<SpeedEvil>
chip
<kristianpaul>
cause EVB costs ~500usd
<kristianpaul>
:/
<kristianpaul>
i already asked ;)
<SpeedEvil>
laurenceb over on #highaltitude has some logs of raw GPS signals from a similar device
<kristianpaul>
oh
<SpeedEvil>
And there are other poeple in that channel who have worked/stidued SDR GPS
<kristianpaul>
wich sdr?
<kristianpaul>
the one from CTAE?
<kristianpaul>
using scilab? fastgps?
<SpeedEvil>
I don't recall - it was something similar to the maxim chip.
<SpeedEvil>
A bit or two at a few MHz sampling hte IF
<kristianpaul>
one or two, not much difference it seems
<kristianpaul>
more if you are in a high altitude globe :D
<kristianpaul>
ballon*
<SpeedEvil>
Part of the interest is due to GPSs not dealing well with stuff.
<kristianpaul>
he :)
<SpeedEvil>
For example - if you have an accellerometer on a rocket - you really want to feed that accellerometer into the core of teh position filter.
<kristianpaul>
i was told gps receiver stop working at some altitude, how that is true?
<kristianpaul>
i also was told, once reason was to avoid comercial closed-source gps receiver be put on rockers ;)
<kristianpaul>
rockets*
<dvdk>
wpwrak: no way to give an article to ycombinator, so i went for the announce list post, which is concise.  would be nice if the announce list post  linked to your excellent wpan page, but unfortunately we cannot edit it :)
<dvdk>
wolfspraul: i think slashdot.org/recent already implements the multi-layer system you describes.  this is why it's number of articles gets lesser and lesser the further you move into the past.  and benwpan-article was already dropped.
<wpwrak>
dvdk: (edit it) what, the announce list post or my page ?
<dvdk>
wpwrak: the next SD post is going to link to your new page.  maybe editors evaluate submissions for slashdottability and outright deny articles that link to mediawiki pages? d)
<dvdk>
:)
<wpwrak>
that would actually make a lot of sense ;-)
<dvdk>
wpwrak: the announce list post archive version
<dvdk>
did you hear: jane thinks she can just quit and walk out of the community. ;)
<dvdk>
let's just ignore any attempts at unsubscribing from the list :)
<wpwrak>
yeah. she didn't hear the clicking of the lock on those chains, did she :)
<dvdk>
lol
<kristianpaul>
really happy at #highaltitude
<kristianpaul>
thaknks for the info SpeedEvil !
<lekernel>
what's that?
<wpwrak>
drugs ? :)
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: that's another channel?
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: yup :-)
<kristianpaul>
very interesting one
<kristianpaul>
like hihg altitude baloon projects as well :-)
<kristianpaul>
balloon*
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: better :-)
<SpeedEvil>
kristianpaul: It's not quite true. The COCOM/ITAR limit is it should not produce positions at over 60000 feet AND 1000 knots.
<SpeedEvil>
Some malfunction, and do OR
<SpeedEvil>
And some basically will take any excuse - slight signal fading - to not believe that they are not really 30Km in the air, and produce a solution on the ground.
<lekernel>
do we give a shit about the COCOM/ITAR limit?
<SpeedEvil>
The penalties are _really_ severe if you get found violating it.
<SpeedEvil>
The next section in ITAR deals with satellite kick motors with enough impulse to drop reentry bodies on targets, the prior one deals with high speed cameras used for nuclear weapons development.
<lekernel>
that's again bureaucracy retardation/security theatre as its best, as if building a GPS was a difficult part in developing an ICBM
<SpeedEvil>
For example - why are 80GHz spectrum analysers controlled?
<SpeedEvil>
Back in 1980, a GPS was actually really quite hard to build.
<lekernel>
see link above, that (admittedly skilled) ham did it in 1991
<lekernel>
what is it with 80GHz spectrum analyzers?
<SpeedEvil>
They are controlled goods.
<lekernel>
why?
<SpeedEvil>
I'm unsure why, but they are.
<kristianpaul>
hum?
<lekernel>
maybe the reason is just that the US government are control freaks. an amazing list of things are "controlled goods" to varying degrees; even the FPGAs that we use in MM
<SpeedEvil>
To some degree, yes. Though wasamar is _much_ more widespread than the US
<lekernel>
doesn't seem they are particularly hard to order (just probably very expensive)
<lekernel>
you can also try to hack a luxury car's cruise control radar
<wpwrak>
be afraid. be afraid. obey. be afraid. consume. be afraid. be afraid. don't see the fnords. be afraid. ... the concept sounds familiar ;-)
<lekernel>
actually I'll probably get that last option a try, when I get time (difficult) and money (those things are about 900¬)
<lekernel>
an USRP module above 70GHz from a car cruise control radar sounds exciting :)
<wpwrak>
hmm :)
<SpeedEvil>
I may have misremembered the exact frequency - it was
<SpeedEvil>
            1."Signal analysers" having a 3 dB resolution bandwidth (RBW) exceeding 10 MHz anywhere within the frequency range exceeding 31.8 GHz but not exceeding 37.5 GHz; Â
<lekernel>
luxury car cruise control radars have 76GHz up/down baseband converter chips on them
<lekernel>
hacking them shouldn't even be particularly hard - they have two PCB processes, one with the RF part with a high quality substrate and microsolders for the flip-chip 76GHz silicon
<SpeedEvil>
Some car stuff is controlled, and specifuically must stop functioning if you remove it drom the car
<lekernel>
and the other is a normal PCB with ADC/DAC, DSP and logic
<SpeedEvil>
I think that's IR though
<lekernel>
if you throw away the logic board and put an USRP instead, you should get something interesting :)
<SpeedEvil>
Speaking practically - there are many realms where increasing commodity hardware has obsoleted this.
<SpeedEvil>
For example - several of the best webcams pointed at the sky from disparate locations will get you accurate positions on those aircraft in near real-time.
<lekernel>
the major difficulty will be to figure out the pinouts of the connector between the two PCBs and the control commands for the RF chip
<SpeedEvil>
Not really.
<SpeedEvil>
The RF chip will be dumb
<SpeedEvil>
Logic in high frequency RF products is expensive.
<SpeedEvil>
I guess it's not going to work very well on veroboard.
<lekernel>
the car cruise control radars' RF board just have that chip, a 12GHz reference oscillator for the PLL, and stripline antennas
<lekernel>
period :)
<lekernel>
sure, just take the complete RF board apart from a radar
<lekernel>
I wouldn't even be afraid of mounting the flip chip (there are companies who offer the service at an affordable price) but using the pre-made board is just easier and cheaper
<lekernel>
it would be nice to know what the real frequency range of those critters is
<lekernel>
the datasheet only says "for radar applications in the 76-77GHz range", but...
<SpeedEvil>
Get a friend in a scrapyard that deal with high end cat-d cars.
<rejon>
wpwrak, tuxbrain_away any uptake on the news?
<dvdk>
(wrt bitcoin) i'm sure slashdot editor insider trading is going on over there
<rejon>
wpwrak, another thing is to resubmit
<rejon>
you didn't syubmit that one right?
<dvdk>
wpwrak: /. article?  were can we read it?
<wpwrak>
rejon: (title) the whole announcement/PR thing was a bit rushed. no proper welcome page, confusing pricing, etc.
<wpwrak>
rejon: i'm not sure if tuxbrain has fixed the price information yet, or if he even considers doing so. if he does, then i'd want to wait for him to get this done before pushing again
<rejon>
wpwrak, more important to get hackers on and plan out for something that is more public facing
<wpwrak>
rejon: i.e., i don't think it helps if the boards appear 20% more expensive than they really are
<rejon>
wpwrak, yeah, that sucks
<dvdk>
wpwrak: let's not resubmit, just write up a new article with a different spin
<wpwrak>
dvdk: (atricle) i mean your submissions, and what they link to
<dvdk>
yes, just saw your comment attached to the earlier article
<wpwrak>
yes, might as well use the 2nd try to improve things
<wpwrak>
would also be nice if we could sneak in a word somewhere (doesn't have to be the article per se - could be the overview page) that sonsorship would be rather welcome
<wpwrak>
(sponsorship) IEEE 802.15.4 may strike a chord where the Ben didn't. that "internet of things" is more en vogue these days :)
<rejon>
oh, i know that guy who wrote that EFF article
<rejon>
i'm emailing him
<wpwrak>
rejon: i don't quite subscribe to wolfgang's approach of financing the project through sales. i think the ramp-up is too slow for that. we should emphasize that we're creating a lot of value outside the traditional product-to-market chain, namely an open process, free tools, etc.
<rejon>
wpwrak, i hear you
<rejon>
anyway we can get money to support
<rejon>
development
<wpwrak>
rejon: (eff getting coverage) ah, but it's a transgression. everybody *loves* to read about transgressions ;-)
<rejon>
ok emailing you wpwrak tuxbrain_away to that eff guy...please don't over hammer him
<rejon>
we'll see what he says
<rejon>
wolfspraul doesn't hammer people i intro as much now like he used too
<rejon>
hahaha
<wpwrak>
brings the hammer collection from the workshop ;-)
<kristianpaul>
rejon: what is that symbol in the network ring from the freedom stack in the home page of qi-hw.com ?
<wpwrak>
rejon: yeah, i think wolfgang has pretty much withdrawn from seeking external support
<rejon>
the worst one was an email thread i was having with eben moglen that ended in a huge slamfest to him
<kristianpaul>
i'm guessing guess you updated the pic :-)
<rejon>
but, to his credit, i had meeting with moglen at CC a while back and he said to me: "say hi to wolfgang for me.."
<rejon>
that guy has amazing memory
<rejon>
i showed him the mm1 board i just got that day
<rejon>
i think web projects and community are the wimpiest
<rejon>
kristianpaul, yeah, i had that created a long time ago, but didn't get it applied until we wrestled that server from mako
<rejon>
hahaha
<rejon>
autonomous is the least known project unfortunately
<rejon>
anyway, ok, emailing eff dude
<kristianpaul>
may be eff can sponsor wpwrak to develop the sdr implementation  of "Wifi" ;-)
<rejon>
lets see!
<rejon>
i know john perry barlow and mitch kapor, but those guys are in the clouds often
<rejon>
i'll email them
<rejon>
fuck it
<rejon>
i like to email people in separate threads
<wpwrak>
rejon: at least it's not the a-in-a-circle logo ;-)
<rejon>
from same company
<rejon>
pit them against each other
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: sdr-wifi has been done with USRPs. seems to consume quite a bit of resources. not a likely candidate for a "make a product within the next 6 months" project. even if you accept generous overruns
<kristianpaul>
oh i dint knew it
<SpeedEvil>
I looked at the wifi standard for a bit.
<SpeedEvil>
My head melted.
<wpwrak>
rejon: "pretty, wouldn't you like ... . mitch, i think we all hate ... ."
<SpeedEvil>
I was trying to work out how the powersave logic worked.
<SpeedEvil>
There are _so_ many layers.
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: i guess is same history for the wpan?
<SpeedEvil>
If you 'just' want to do a raw packet interface, and are willing to ditch everything but making it a 'raw' link that you rely on tcp to do retransmits - it'd be a fair bit easier.
<wpwrak>
SpeedEvil: did they add some new ones lately ? didn't look much more horrible than USB, last time i looked
<SpeedEvil>
Maybe it was just the bits I was looking at.
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: so the goal is reduce USRPs size, or jump in to FPAA..
<wpwrak>
SpeedEvil: (rely on tcp) funny. that sounds like dirtpan ;-)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: wpan would be much easier. less complexity, slower, etc.
<rejon>
i'm emailing moglen and bdale too
<kristianpaul>
rms? :-)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: SDR wpan may be doable as a "half year" project
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: yay :-)
<wpwrak>
rejon: hmm, maybe we should sync on what exactly you're mailing ? :)
<rejon>
hahaha
<rejon>
just keep them flowing
<wpwrak>
rejon: would hate to have the whole world propagate some misunderstandings :)
<rejon>
check that last email
<rejon>
i have an update one
<rejon>
these are mostly informational
<rejon>
not expecting a lot
<rejon>
from them
<kristianpaul>
i think tuxbrain_away should be prepared to run out wpan stock soon :-)
<rejon>
that usually happens because its in something they need, we are in the same room, or just some random coincidence
<wpwrak>
rejon: hmm, "parent-free" may be an exaggeration. i'm sure there are patents covering the transceiver, probably also the balun, maybe even the antenna
<rejon>
wpwrak, of course, just trying to get their attention
<rejon>
suggest better language
<rejon>
then why is this different?
<wpwrak>
rejon: the absence of worrying patents applies more to this being an open standard with now known patent trolls
<rejon>
ok i'm going to stick with patent-free
<rejon>
and put a clarifying comment
<rejon>
the real thing is to be able to see inside the tech
<wpwrak>
rejon: also, the difference to wlan is more on the level that you can get transceiver chips for wpan, with usable documentation and such, while the situation for wlan (or also BT) is decidedly bleaker
<rejon>
just have to get them ith keywords...emails over 1 paragraph already too much for these dudes
<rejon>
lets get them to comment first
<wpwrak>
rejon: i think also 802.11 is pretty much "open" in terms of specs, at least the basic ones (11, 11b), and there are USRP implementations to support this claim.
<wpwrak>
rejon: (keeping it short) yeah, terse is good. but let's not make vastly exaggerated claims. that only backfires.
<wpwrak>
rejon: so let's work out where exactly the freedom is
<wpwrak>
rejon: the main restriction is see with wlan is in the closed nature of the chips
<wpwrak>
rejon: you basically can't buy chips that let you implement wlan without entering some deep NDAs. what you can buy are modules that are black boxes.
<rejon>
i'm bcc'ing you guys on barlow, kapor and moglen and bdale...lets get them to comment first
<wpwrak>
rejon: let's fix this BEFORE you mail the world
<rejon>
(ok wpwrak )
<wpwrak>
rejon: if you don't have time now, we can also do this later. one day more won't make a big difference.
<rejon>
nah, do while energy
<wpwrak>
rejon: hehe, good :)
<wpwrak>
rejon: so, i'm not sure about the patent situation. there are probably patents on implementation details and such, but nobody outside the few chip-making companies has really penetrated this far
<wpwrak>
rejon: the main problem with wifi is that you can only get black boxes. wpan is much more friendly. there, you get chips with complete documentation where all the registers are, what they do, etc.
<rejon>
right
<rejon>
so can say
<rejon>
we are attempting to make a patent-free wireless solution
<wpwrak>
rejon: also, because wpan is simpler, there often isn't even any firmware in the chips. some have firmware. some of that is closed, but there's now also open source firmware for at least one.
<kristianpaul>
not patent-free hardware fabbing
<wpwrak>
rejon: the chip we use has no firmware. everything hard-wired. rms should like that ;-)
<kristianpaul>
wich is diffrent from manufacture i think
<wpwrak>
rejon: i'm not quite sure on the patent-free side. that word may not describe the aspect properly
<wpwrak>
rejon: it's more making a solution that doesn't require you to be part of the inner circle that has sworn a vow of silence
<rejon>
wpwrak, that is cool
<wpwrak>
hehe ;-)
<wpwrak>
the mechanisms of that inner circle themselves are even obscure. can be patents, trade secrets, copyright, you name it
<wpwrak>
if you're member of the inner circle, you probably know some of those mechanisms (and may employ them yourself)
<wpwrak>
if you're not a member of the inner circle, they can't tell you. fight club reloaded.
<rejon>
ok wpwrak sent you the draft
<rejon>
please edit and/or tweak then get back to me
<rejon>
would like to get this b4 end of the day (1 hr)
<wpwrak>
also, the wlan situation clears up when you go to bigger sizes. i think there are some relatively open chips for USB-based wlan (would have to check, though. "open" is used in so many ways these days ...)
<rejon>
sure
<rejon>
just trying to hook into these guys
<rejon>
not hook into the details so much
<wpwrak>
but with the small chips, for cellphone-sized mobile devices, there's all that veil of secrecy
<rejon>
totally
<rejon>
that is good
<rejon>
wpwrak, can you channel these ideas onto that wiki page
<rejon>
i can't transcribe right now
<wpwrak>
(details) yeah, i just want to avoid making statements they know are wrong
<rejon>
those high up dudes have filter on things that don't increase their value or reputation
<wpwrak>
politicians :)
<rejon>
i say paid or laid aka p(l)aid
<kristianpaul>
hahah
<wpwrak>
;-))
<wpwrak>
we need a better word for "patent-free". maybe just "Free" ?
<wpwrak>
(in the sense of "compatible with the principles we uphold")
<kristianpaul>
freedom  is overrated
<rejon>
yeah, probably best to ignore patent word overall
<rejon>
freedom is def. overrated
<rejon>
its not really competitive either to real world
<rejon>
its like, does that shit work?
<rejon>
can i connet my shit with it?
<wpwrak>
i'd take a benevolent dictatorship any day ;-)
<rejon>
yeah, patent and free are trigger words
<rejon>
better to avoid mostly
<kristianpaul>
patent club free
<kristianpaul>
ah, ok
<rejon>
if someone has enough moula, then can take it
<dvdk>
needs lots of polishing.  too tired already.  has time anyways
<kristianpaul>
wifi-dongles, humm
<kristianpaul>
thats a bit confusing, so wifi is wireless nor wlan?
<wpwrak>
(... processing rejon's mail ...)
<SpeedEvil>
dvdk: On first read. Does the dongle plug in or what.
<kristianpaul>
dvdk: vSpeedEvil: i think usb-dongles is a right word to mention
<SpeedEvil>
is annoyed zigbee is closed.
<wpwrak>
SpeedEvil: don't be annoyed with it. ignore it :)
<wpwrak>
SpeedEvil: it's dead anyway. everybody is moving on
<wpwrak>
dvdk: i'd change "all WLAN" to "all suitable WLAN" (or "all otherwise suitable"). e.g., there may be some large chips that would have better documentation. but the board would be as big as the ben itself.
<wpwrak>
whitequark: what was your ghettoblaster's chip again ? and is there a non-NDAed data sheet for it ?
<dvdk>
wpwrak: it's a wiki, change what you want :)
<roh>
well.. there are wifi chips with free drivers... but they are usually not intended for _ultra_ mobiles
<dvdk>
when should we post it?  use wpwrak's account this time to disguise the redundancy?
<wpwrak>
dvdk: sigh. wiki, the downfall of the culture of authorship and editing ...
<dvdk>
wait, don't edit just yet.
<wpwrak>
dvdk: wait .. still reading ...
<rjeffries>
being anti-WiFi is a charming notion. Reminds me of being opposed to the sun rising each day.
<wpwrak>
roh: yeah. plus, you probably still can't get the chip per se.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: you'd be surprised by how many people here are rather successful at avoiding the evil day star ;)
<rejon>
wpwrak, you have to dm me if you want me
<rejon>
working on other things
<dvdk>
wpwrak: ok done.  :-P
<rjeffries>
WiFi gives one a single-ended soution for internet connectivity, at say your fav coffee shop. the wonderful 802.15.4 stuff is two ended, so will work at you home just fine, but not at a public wfifi hot spot.
<dvdk>
wpwrak: just ctrl+r and add your changes
<roh>
wpwrak: you can.. but usually just in some real numbers ( 5 digits at least... the rest is 'samples')
<dvdk>
uh, already changed, does it merge mulitple edits? not bad.
<dvdk>
s/but be energy efficient/but at energy efficiency/ ?
<wpwrak>
dvdk: i didn't try any editing so far. first list the issues
<roh>
rjeffries: find a 'mobile access point/bridge' hardware with an usb port and see if openwrt is useable for it
<rejon>
cxadams, needs to know
<dvdk>
is startled and looks at the history of the page
<wpwrak>
roh: and usually NDA :)
<roh>
rjeffries: i know there are devices like that, even battery operated ones. usually with also a ethernet connector. to use in a hotel room for example
<dvdk>
ah, evil tuxbrain is adding comments.  Yuck /me hates parens
<SpeedEvil>
'not hurt battery life'
<roh>
wpwrak: some dont.. i think ralink for example gave out some datasheets.
<wpwrak>
dvdk: (at ... efficiency) yes
<roh>
wpwrak: not the 'big ones' . sure.
<dvdk>
(tuxbrain) that's why the broken english :-P
<rjeffries>
troh you are correct, and so am I. WiFi access is virtually ubiquitous. I can't go to my fave coffee shop and plug wpwrak 's dongle in and connect. ;)
<dvdk>
wpwrak: saw my comment about authorship :)
<dvdk>
?
<wpwrak>
dvdk: also, 2 Mbps is a non-standard extension by atmel. the standard only goes to 250 kbps.
<dvdk>
knows that
<wpwrak>
maybe i'll take a shower and come back when the edit war is over ? then i only have to fight the winner :)
<tuxbrain_away>
will stay quite for a while :P
<kristianpaul>
then use a piratepad instead
<dvdk>
is falling asleep
<kristianpaul>
and no more wars :-)
<kristianpaul>
ok, bteer sleep :-)
<dvdk>
guys, keep the story simple and concise and fun to read.  don't know whether throwing around with numbers is going to attract readers?
<rejon>
wpwrak, font
<wpwrak>
rejon: oh. dunno. that's from the altium-generated gerbers
<rejon>
ok cxadams wpwrak doesn't know...its probably some standard font from that program
<wpwrak>
dvdk, tuxbrain_away: yeah, i'd drop the bandwidth figure. we have all that on my overview page anyway
<wpwrak>
dvdk: (authorship) ;-))
<wpwrak>
"more open 6LoWPAN" maybe "IEEE 802.15.4 and eventually 6LoWPAN". we don't have the latter yet
<wpwrak>
dvdk: the first sentence doens't quite ring true. those chips/modules with persistent storage usually come pre-programmed.
<wpwrak>
dvdk: e.g., in the case of openmoko, where we used such a module, they wuoldn't even give us a reflash utility. instead, the modules had to be returned (from a team scattered all over the world, ha ha) to the company in taipei for flashing a critical update
<wpwrak>
(the original "consumer grade" version the shipped would die after a few seconds of SSH)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: also, don't put (ugly) in parentheses :)
<dvdk>
wpwrak: no i think it's ok.  production can be "produciton of the chip"
<dvdk>
wpwrak: that was me :)
<dvdk>
(paraanthesis)^
<wpwrak>
dvdk: (production) phew ;) okay
<whitequark>
regarding the wifi chipsets, I heard that Atheros has open-sourced driver and firmware
<dvdk>
also we shouldn't go for 100% accuracy.  Conciseness means information loss means approximations (like 6LowPAN)
<xMff>
they're actually firmware-less
<wpwrak>
dvdk: (ugly) hah ! with parentheses it means that the project is an ugly mess. without parentheses it says in an ironic way that the details are non-trivial.
<dvdk>
wpwrak: thought the opposite.  parenthises for the irony. hmm
<xMff>
only eeprom with a bit of callibration data
<dvdk>
s/Low/LoW/
<wpwrak>
whitequark: firmware too ? i know of drivers. for all but the 6k series, which are the ones targetted at small mobile systems
<wpwrak>
whitequark: that's why i'm saying we should qualify that statement
<whitequark>
not sure which devices use that, through
<wpwrak>
dvdk: "ugly details" is a fixed expression. doesn't mean that everyone would find them ugly.
<dvdk>
wpwrak: also the article does not need to reflect the exact state of work where we are.  it's about the wpan _project_ and if that goes for 6LoWPAN, then these are 6LoWPAN dongles (a few slashdotters can hack the drivers over the weekend, won't they? :)
<wpwrak>
whitequark: that would be the 9k series
<dvdk>
that's why the irony it's {"ugly details", "details"} encoded via parens
<wpwrak>
dvdk: (6lowpan) well, i wouldn't want to advertize a feature we haven't even started to implement, and where we're not certain whether it will be implemented from our side
<whitequark>
wpwrak: ah yes, I see now. the 6k embedded series is still encumbered
<wpwrak>
dvdk: naw, the parentheses don't work this way. you could use "ugly" details. but keeping it simple conveys the same meaning.
<dvdk>
whitequark wpwrak: that's why it reads '_nearly_ all WLAN chips' .  buy one may want to add a suitable
<dvdk>
wpwrak: that's the nice thing about communication: what it means only depends on the receiver :)Â Â
<dvdk>
but change it as you wish.  too tired to see any nuances currently
<dvdk>
s/only/entirely
<wpwrak>
i'd say "requite proprietary firmeware or are otherwise encumbered." (e.g., if you can't use the chip without a nasty NDA, it's unsuitable for copyleft hardware)
<wpwrak>
"use" = circuit design
<dvdk>
wpwrak: (encumbered) sounds neat
<dvdk>
and it gets longer and longer.  should have kept the first version even shorter.  at this growth rate it's not going to fit in the submit box :)
<whitequark>
dvdk: (encumbered) hey, that was my idea! :)
<dvdk>
:)
<whitequark>
I should have registered a patent on it...
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: we need your instinct as a native english speaker: "the ugly details", "the 'ugly' details", or "the (ugly) details" ? when the intended meaning is "intricate", with a dose of irony
<dvdk>
whitequark: hurry, before we submit it
<whitequark>
dvdk: isn't that prohibited by your religion? ;)
<wpwrak>
dvdk: whitequark's patent lawyers should be asleep now. maybe we can sneak ours in via rejon or rjeffries in the us ;-)
<dvdk>
whitequark: yes i'm already feeling the bad karma from it
<whitequark>
dvdk: if you do, you may spend your next life as a tiny and horribly closed wifi chip...
<dvdk>
whitequark: or as a tiny gate, having to work at 4 GHz
<whitequark>
dvdk: or, in the worst case, as an x86 core
<dvdk>
it's a little difficuult to fit 'encumbered' into the long sentence with proprietary firmare, have to drop the last part of the sentence
<dvdk>
whitequark: as an A20 gate ? :)
<whitequark>
dvdk: definitely!
<whitequark>
dvdk: (fitting) that sentence just becames too encumbered, isn't it?
<dvdk>
ok, time for bed
<dvdk>
cu guys
<whitequark>
bye
<wpwrak>
so .. nobody else editing ? then i shall have my way with it :)
<SpeedEvil>
True - the former acronym is much more common though
<tuxbrain_away>
wireless!=wlan
<SpeedEvil>
And in context - wlan is used as a synonym for wifi.
<SpeedEvil>
I've hacked on it - revert if you hate it. :)
<wpwrak>
SpeedEvil: WIFI or WiFi ? :)
<SpeedEvil>
yeah - probably
<SpeedEvil>
I forget how they capitalise it.
<wpwrak>
SpeedEvil: WiFi is more widely understood than WLAN. alas, it's a forbidden word (trademarked). but i guess i this context we can get away with using it.
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: have you seen the numerous comments on the prices ? regarding indicating taxes and not ? your current system is very confusing
<tuxbrain_away>
wpwrak: ok I will try to fix it ASAP, with an "IVA includo" is enough?
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: do you know the legal requirements for what you can write there and what not ? e.g,, i think you're obliged to include taxes in prices that are potentially destined at EU customers, but i don't know if you can mention that this includes EU taxes, and whether you're allowed to also show non-EU prices or have a link/button for non-EU prices
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: are you in good terms with pulster ? if yes, you may want to ask him. or maybe Nikolaus Schaller.
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: germans tend to be very well-informed when it comes to laws ;-)
<tuxbrain_away>
there is no rule but meanwhile it's clear in the final confirmation order sumary
<tuxbrain_away>
but mostly 90% of my cosrtumers are from EU so if I show prices without Vat in the final order sumary before confirmation they feel cheated and don't buy.
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: (tuxbrain: EUR 99 + 23 shipping = EUR 122. ergo my price is better ;-)
<tuxbrain_away>
I can try to make more clear that is with vat included
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: i think it's okay to show prices with VAT by default. but you should also mention that these are in-EU prices. so, say, US customers, who are used to prices without taxes won't think it's very expensive.
<tuxbrain_away>
(pulster) yeah I already know that , he asked me  permision for that :)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: (permission) nice :)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: (mainly EU customers) also don't forget that you're the only global distributor for atben/atusb for now :)
<tuxbrain_away>
it's not true anyway but I don't care, the NN they sell I have selled to him first :P
<SpeedEvil>
What was the price?
<wpwrak>
so he adds EUR 9 and optimizes the shipping. fair enough
<SpeedEvil>
And can the microSD thingy fit in arbitrary sockets?
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: (trademarked) it's legal to say "we are NOT <trademark>(R)"
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: that's what i hope :)
<wpwrak>
SpeedEvil: no. they must have the right physical clearance, you must be able to bit-bang the I/O pins, and you must be able to switch power on/off.
<tuxbrain_away>
wpwrak: (WWD of atben and atusb) Ok I will try to make it clearer, somthing with little lettes beside the price telling (vat included, are you not from EU? click here)
<SpeedEvil>
wpwrak: I guess not the n900 - physical clearance would kill it.
<wpwrak>
SpeedEvil: ah, and you must have all the I/O pins. no cheating with 1-bit bus devices. (e.g., various things in the arduinoverse)
<SpeedEvil>
And on reflection - it's under teh battery)
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: (VAT) in EU you need to show prices incl VAT for products intended at end users. You are free to also show the netto price w/o VAT, as long as you have the all-incl price too, and you clearly state what is what
<wpwrak>
SpeedEvil: you should get a ben. it fits perfectly there ;-))
<SpeedEvil>
wpwrak: REgrettably.
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: sounds great
<DocScrutinizer>
tuxbrain_away: ^^^
<SpeedEvil>
I have _WAAAAAY_ too much random hardware I haven't touched again.
<wpwrak>
SpeedEvil: lock away the rest. focus on what's important, namely the ben ;-)
<SpeedEvil>
As I'm now on a sharply limited budget, I'm trying to limit my purchases to sutff I'm actually going to be doing stuff on next week.
<SpeedEvil>
Though I am looking at solar panel bits on ebay, which is probably silly.
<wpwrak>
SpeedEvil: don't worry. none of us can really afford our addiction. don't let this stop you ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
hah
<SpeedEvil>
I had no heating on last winter, to save for insulation work on the house - so I have zero spare cash at the moment.
<wpwrak>
SpeedEvil: so you solar-paneled everything ? the cost of is would probably for a century of inefficient heating ;-)
<wpwrak>
s/for/pay for/
<SpeedEvil>
wpwrak: naah. Though 12m^2 of solar cells for $800 is silly cheap.
<SpeedEvil>
I've bought conventional 10cm foam insulation, and am installing it.
<wpwrak>
hmm. the kWh costs here about 2.5 US-cents. so USD 900+ USD 149 shipping, taxes (30%?)... that's 68 MWh. if you panel has an overall yield of 10% per year, that's 1.75 MWh per year. you'll break even in about 40 years. i hope you're young and in good health ;-)