<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: Updated profiles (atben, atusb, atusb-sil, cntr) for move of qfn.fpd and qfp.fpd (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/7a8ca1b
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved qfn.fpd and qfp.fpd from ben-wpan to kicad-libs (deletion) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/f21fdf6
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: BOOKSHELF (AN068, pcbcng): "Adapting TI LPRF Reference Designs for Layer Stacking" (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/71aacb1
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved atmega8u2, c8051f320, c8051f326 symbol from ben-wpan to kicad-libs (incoming) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/4ade85b
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: Updated profiles (atusb, atusb-sil, cntr) for move of MCU symbols (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/e87ad08
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved atmega8u2, c8051f320, c8051f326 symbol from ben-wpan to kicad-libs (deletion) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/42bf0f5
<kyak>
bartbes: check out the /quote memoserv help
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: components/components.pro: removed unnecessary .lib extension in file names (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/7103b4b
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved atmega48-mmu symbol from ben-wpan to kicad-libs (incoming) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/fd7d74a
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved mini-usb.fpd and usb_a_plug_smt.fpd from ben-wpan to kicad-libs (incoming) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/39c7ee7
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: Updated profiles (atusb, atusb-sil, cntr) for move of usb_a_plug_smt.fpd (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/c699a92
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved mini-usb.fpd and usb_a_plug_smt.fpd from ben-wpan to kicad-libs (deletion) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/0f26c57
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: I knew about this before
<wolfspraul>
legal systems in the entire world contain numerous opportunities to 'do evil'
<wolfspraul>
just throw money at it, use the system
<wolfspraul>
the morale low is on Apple's side, clearly, to be so greedy and selfish to abuse the weaknesses of the legal system in a shameless way, and suck energy away from more relevant use of legal resources
<wolfspraul>
well, but what can I say. I bought my last Apple product over 3 years ago and will not buy another one until they are near bankrupt again.
<wolfspraul>
it speaks volumes for Apple to be doing this kind of thing
<wolfspraul>
on the other hand it's probably true that Samsung engineers were told in mass 'just copy the ipad', but to abuse the legal system in this way is still a bad thing in and of itself, and unexcusable
<wolfspraul>
good thing we don't do that kind of stuff :-)
<wpwrak>
yeah. i find the automatism this legal construct creates or getting a preliminary injunction disturbing, though. it basically removes all safeguards from this potent instrument.
<wpwrak>
s/or/for/
<wolfspraul>
well like I said. normally you expect this kind of tricks to be used by sleazy used car salesmen that are regularly ripping off 90% of their customers
<wolfspraul>
or by failed businessmen of all kinds
<wolfspraul>
if Apple does it - very bad sign for Apple
<wolfspraul>
I've had the unfortunate opportunity to be the target of this kind of tricks in Germany myself, in the wild dot com days in Germany
<wpwrak>
yeah, but who of the lawmakers have been sleeping on the job ? it's not just about apple. anyone can play.
<wolfspraul>
there are ways to counter it, but they are equally bad
<wolfspraul>
and the legal system being slow, they don't really clean up either (make their system more efficient)
<wolfspraul>
well, the reality is that many may not care about the whole big thing
<wolfspraul>
just about their job and how to advance to the next one :-)
<wolfspraul>
the responsibility is fully on Apple's side
<wolfspraul>
and I do think it will have a sales impact, I saw lots of comments on blogs in that direction
<wolfspraul>
buy Samsung in solidarity etc.
<wpwrak>
i wonder. the division between pro-apple and anti-apple seems pretty clear :)
<wolfspraul>
it's a morale low, that's all
<wpwrak>
but samsung may get customers who would have bought from other non-apple
<wolfspraul>
imagine a bribe situation. some senator/congressman getting bribed for a vote.
<wpwrak>
yeah, pretty, but rotten to the core
<wolfspraul>
it's a big difference whether the money is coming from some small sleazy shop, or from a global corporation like Apple
<wolfspraul>
the latter is just bad, Apple badly fails on the responsibility they have given their size and power
<wolfspraul>
maybe they should be split into 100 mini-Apples
<wolfspraul>
but not with another failed goverment action like back in the Microsoft days...
<wolfspraul>
we'll get over this. Apple is now the #1 most valuable company in the world. It can only go down from here :-)
<wpwrak>
yeah :)
<wpwrak>
pity the folks who broke at&t down into baby-bells are probably all dead now. back then, they still had balls.
<wolfspraul>
the difference is that back then people were trapped into the one telco they had to go to for service
<wolfspraul>
whereas apple products are chosen in a free and competitive way
<wolfspraul>
so there simply need to be better alternatives, and then it will take its natural course
<wolfspraul>
at their size it will be harder to manage, come out with good products, satisfy the demands of the shareholders, etc.
<wpwrak>
free and competitive with monopolies like patents or that community design ? :)
<wolfspraul>
as you can see in this legal action that will clearly backfire
<wpwrak>
apple's always been on the lawsuit-happy side. remember "look and feel" ? it's the same all over again, just with more bendable laws
<wolfspraul>
fair enough. but our vote is clear already.
<wpwrak>
yeah :)
<wolfspraul>
the only true path out and forward are new innovative products, that really work, are really easy to use, get people excited, etc.
<wolfspraul>
everything else is a distraction
<wolfspraul>
I remember I went to a anti-patent demonstration once in front of the EPA in Munich
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wolfspraul>
I wanted to feel how that is. Once and never again.
<wolfspraul>
it's not my thing. I retreat, work on a better product. That will always find its way.
<wolfspraul>
like drugs are finding their way :-)
<wolfspraul>
legal or illegal
<wolfspraul>
if there is demand, there is a way
<wpwrak>
it seems that, if you don't have a credible threat of torching the place you're protesting against, nobody will care
<wolfspraul>
I had to do it once, and I did.
<wolfspraul>
but it's not my thing, maybe others, ok all fine
<wolfspraul>
maybe they end up in a full-time position at the EPA eventually :-)
<wolfspraul>
I have such a feeling :-)
<wpwrak>
oh dear :)
<wolfspraul>
"continue the reform from inside" (ahem)
<wolfspraul>
no?
<wpwrak>
like ex-hippies becoming neocons
<wolfspraul>
it's just my feeling. those systems are also not infinitely powerful. Apple made a bad decision, and they will pay for it.
<wolfspraul>
not that they will notice anytime soon :-)
<wpwrak>
i'm afraid this will also get a lot of anklebiters interested
<wolfspraul>
not sure. normally when you are powerful, you do understand with it comes a lot of restraint.
<wpwrak>
no review, an automatic preliminary injunction, no prior art check, etc. sounds even better than snatching up patents
<wolfspraul>
any CEO of any even mid-size company could do a lot of harm if he would throw the company culture out the door and just go on a reckless path through society.
<wolfspraul>
well, let's see
<wpwrak>
no, i mean design trolls, like the patent trolls we have now
<wolfspraul>
Samsung's lawyers are certainly doing triple-paid weekend hours over this as we speak
<wolfspraul>
Apple just lowered the level, more like pimps fighting over hookers and streets they "own".
<wpwrak>
yeah, they're happy ;-)
<wolfspraul>
but Samsung can go down to that level, I'm sure
<wolfspraul>
_every_ weapon can be turned around - you just have to think a little how...
<wpwrak>
i think they just have to convince a judge that there is prior art. or at least seed enough doubt, to get the preliminary injunction revoked
<wpwrak>
what's worrying is that there's no defense against getting it slapped on you. samsung weren't even heard. it's all automatic.
<wpwrak>
and it's basically EU-wide. a mighty instrument
<wolfspraul>
well let's see
<wpwrak>
as long as it's just big companies shelling each other, that's not so bad. they know of each other's moves and they have the stamina to survive a bit of bleeding
<wolfspraul>
this is deep in German commercial and common law now, including ethical standards (sittenwidrig) etc.
<wolfspraul>
there will be some explaining sessions about German law history in California soon, when the surprises pop up
<wpwrak>
yeah, i wonder if they will try to overturn that mechanism before it gains more widespread abuse
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wolfspraul>
it may quickly end up in a multi-billion USD payment Apple will need to make
<wolfspraul>
no this is not new
<wolfspraul>
let's hope Apple lawyers really thought this through, or maybe not hope so they learn it now :-)
<wpwrak>
i don't see much risk for apple. they seem to have done everything by the book.
<wpwrak>
of course, they'll have to reimburse samsung if they lose
<wolfspraul>
let's see, I don't know
<wolfspraul>
in Germany and I believe the EU you could trademark many types of appearances for a long time
<wolfspraul>
3D shapes, colors, smells, etc.
<wpwrak>
yes, those things have been around forever
<wolfspraul>
so let's see how it goes now, I'm not a lawyer
<wpwrak>
what's new is that this one has zero review. neither at the time of issuing nor at the time it is enforced
<wolfspraul>
that's just the pecularity of the process
<wolfspraul>
Samsung has already won in public opinion, now let's see how the winning and loosing continues, if we even find out about it (maybe it will be settled out of court)
<wolfspraul>
the problem is Apple, nothing else. imho.
<wpwrak>
yeah, the good stuff is usually hidden
<wolfspraul>
the process is just the process, and it won't change
<wolfspraul>
those preliminary injunctions are a very important tool in Germany for a small guy to get a big guy to listen up
<wpwrak>
it seems a wonderful mechanism for anyone who wants to play dirty. submit a few doodles, pay the administrative fees. wait. pounce.
<wolfspraul>
so they finally stop ignoring all correspondence, including legal correspondence
<wolfspraul>
well
<wolfspraul>
but then it moves to the next level
<wpwrak>
even if your victim would win, you can offer them a less expensive route. just like patent trolls do
<wolfspraul>
let's see, really
<wpwrak>
the "good" thing about apple here is that they want to go much further. which means samsung has to fight back either way.
<wpwrak>
(german eV) yeah, i know them from gpl-violations :) of course, there, there was review by a judge. they were granted only when it was likely that a lawsuit would also go in the same direction, should it come to that
<wpwrak>
s/eV/EV/, i think :)
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved usb-a-pcb.fpd from f32xbase/c2usb to kicad-libs (incoming) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/dc3baf5
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved usb-a-pcb.fpd from f32xbase/c2usb to kicad-libs (deletion) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/f32xbase/6d750ee
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: if you expect to be dealing with rogue elements of society (aka "Apple"), there is a legal instrument called "Schutzschrift" http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzschrift
<wolfspraul>
this page is not translated into English, but soon will I would think :-)
<wolfspraul>
that's one legal tool against frivolous use of preliminary injunctions, and I'm sure there are other remedies as well
<wolfspraul>
go Samsung!
<wpwrak>
(schutzschrift) yeah, but see the last paragraph in the section about germany. you have to know where you will be attacked, how, and apparently also by whom. sounds like a dubious means of protection.
<wolfspraul>
I think the court is clear here. location of court itself is not a random issue but the result of another complicated set of laws.
<wpwrak>
it does seem to make sense for the use suggested, when you get an "abmahnung" (hmm, "notice" in english ?), because then you know already two of the parameters
<wolfspraul>
let's just see where this goes
<wolfspraul>
and someone has to buy some valium for Apple lawyers too
<wpwrak>
(court) yes, but these laws often leave a lot of choices :)
<wolfspraul>
on a more serious side, I do believe that there were internal instructions at Samsung to copy the iPad
<wolfspraul>
it's just pretty obvious if you look at the product, software, box, etc.
<wolfspraul>
that's not a good thing either, imo. I don't understand why a company like Samsung seems to need that.
<wolfspraul>
who would want to copy the iPad?
<wpwrak>
dunno about the similarity. and yes, samsung doesn't need to do such things.
<wpwrak>
maybe they decided, since apple will sue anyway, they may just make it obvious ;-)
<wpwrak>
well, it could be an attempt at retaliation for the conflict over phones :)
<wolfspraul>
if they did copy it, Apple may have a chance in court
<wolfspraul>
if the lawyers put the two products side by side, including box etc. and it all looks the same - not good
<wpwrak>
yeah
<wpwrak>
dunno what samsung were thinking. maybe they just don't care.
<wolfspraul>
that's like Nike coming out with a show that happens to have 3 stripes
<wolfspraul>
won't work
<wolfspraul>
s/show/shoe/
<wpwrak>
maybe they just want to overload apple's legal team. kinda like the us bankrupted the ussr :)
<wolfspraul>
the use of the preliminary injunction is still frivolous, if you are Apple
<wolfspraul>
start with a letter. if they did that and no response, ok, then that's the next step
<wolfspraul>
another thing I'm wondering is this 'all EU' thing
<wpwrak>
dunno. i find much frivolity in a legal framework that allows such things to happen in the first place, though
<wolfspraul>
I think a lot of that actually doesn't work
<wolfspraul>
I highly doubt a French customs official will give much ado about a preliminary finding of a regional German court
<wpwrak>
dunno
<wolfspraul>
so this may only be 'all of EU' on paper
<wolfspraul>
if you want that enforced in reality, have fun dealing with another 10-20 jurisdictions
<wpwrak>
maybe applicability of the community design and application of the preliminary injunction were confused in the "all of EU"
<wpwrak>
well, we'll see
<wolfspraul>
and judicative and executive are separate
<wolfspraul>
so you may hold a piece of paper in your hands, but the best use may still be as toilet paper :-)
<wolfspraul>
especially in any EU legal matters
<wpwrak>
dunno. they probably do (know), though :)
<wpwrak>
but yes, some threatening posturing on the side of apple would be quite normal in this situation
<wpwrak>
make ambiguous claims that get mis-reported, making you seem stronger than you are
<wolfspraul>
let's see
<wolfspraul>
amazon.de
<wolfspraul>
start close to home
<wolfspraul>
only 1 (5 for wifi) in stock
<wolfspraul>
not sure what this means
<wpwrak>
one samsung ?
<wolfspraul>
amazon.fr just says 'in stock' for the 3g model
<wolfspraul>
I'm wondering what actual impact this preliminary injunction has, besides the news
<wolfspraul>
it probably needs to be enforced separately even at German customs
<wolfspraul>
let alone other EU customs
<wpwrak>
it doesn't seem to affect stock already delivered to resellers
<wolfspraul>
yeah don't know
<wpwrak>
i think it's specifically against samsung. not the produce per se.
<wpwrak>
s/produce/product/
<wpwrak>
of course, maybe apple have already files requests for a hundred more preliminary injunctions. now that pandora's box is wide open ... :)
<wolfspraul>
I doubt it. you see this too technical.
<wolfspraul>
I hope we find out how this one continues...
<wpwrak>
yeah, promises to be fun :)
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved mini_usb_b and usb_a_plug symbol from ben-wpan to kicad-libs (incoming) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/886a0af
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: Updated profiles (atusb, atusb-sil, cntr) for move of USB symbols (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/b401a53
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved mini_usb_b and usb_a_plug symbol from ben-wpan to kicad-libs (deletions) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/f06306f
<wolfspraul>
translate as you like, or just remove that entire line :-)
<LunaVorax>
wolfspraul, it's even harder for me as I try to avoid every anglicisms and use genuine french words.
<LunaVorax>
Like "courriel" instead of "email"
<wolfspraul>
LunaVorax: well, but that means you can go all free. why even be worried about accuracy? It depends on how you see your value as translator.
<wolfspraul>
you just read the original, feel/understand something, and make an authentic re-narration in French :-)
<wolfspraul>
LunaVorax: btw, let me just say it again - I think it's truly wonderful, almost magic, that you take the time and translate the news. THANK YOU!
<wolfspraul>
reaching out and building an audience that trusts what we have to say takes time, and your translation work helps a lot with that.
<LunaVorax>
Hahaha
<wolfspraul>
yes! It's that good!
<LunaVorax>
My pleasure, I believe in Qi-hw
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
I just wish we can make more powerful and cheaper and more open hardware faster.
<wolfspraul>
oh well
<wolfspraul>
so much for SLOW fidelity :-)
<LunaVorax>
wolfspraul, just bring the Open Lase to life
<LunaVorax>
;)
<LunaVorax>
I'll be ready to pay $1000 for it
<LunaVorax>
Maybe not everyone hehe, but I'm sure it would be one of Qi's best innovation
<LunaVorax>
The Nanonote also is a revolution but it needs more docs and software. It'll come slowly
<wolfspraul>
OpenLase, sure, but it's a lot of work. don't underestimate.
<LunaVorax>
wolfspraul, I don't, I'm waiting
<wolfspraul>
the ball is on marcan's side right now, and I'm sure he will get to it, but it will take time.
<wolfspraul>
I added some of those parts to my sourcing agenda, always good to have some items buffered there, to learn about.
<LunaVorax>
I'm confident, he contacted you about making thie OpenLase device, unlike regular hackers who wuld have let this thing die in his garage.
<wolfspraul>
lasers, galvanometers, dichroic mirrors, etc.
<wolfspraul>
to be fair to that hacker, it's really very hard to take a hardware project from a prototype that works for oneself to something others can manufacture (let alone in quantity) and pass to more people
<wolfspraul>
not only is it hard, but there isn't even any accepted checklist one could go through to reach that 'pass on' level
<wolfspraul>
that's one of the main things we are learning about here and as you know tools like boom that are part of that are in very early stages yet
<wolfspraul>
it's not just boom, it's all sorts of things from standardized schematics, tools, notations for electrical values and units, kicad libraries, simulation, bom shopping lists and supply chain standardization, and so on
<wolfspraul>
I cannot blame the regular hacker for focusing on making one prototype work for themselves.
<wolfspraul>
hopefully we can create some incentives for people to go out and share and sell and make some money
<wolfspraul>
that's the plan (as you know of course)...
<LunaVorax>
wolfspraul, fr 50% done, small break
<LunaVorax>
Ok here we go again
<wpwrak>
philosophy in the 20th century: they put out phrases like "the dichotomy of revised constructional hermeticism" that make you feel all the years you wasted at school learning latin were entirely insufficient and that any decent human being with even the least intellectual ambitions would have had taken ancient greek as well
<LunaVorax>
I found the solution wpwrak
<LunaVorax>
I never learned latin ;)
<wpwrak>
philosophy in the 21th centry: learn from marketing, acknowledge the principal objective of the obscure jargon their predecessors have developed, and simply do things like "slow fidelity on the freedom channel" :)
<kyak>
"Python packaging code not found." - what the hell does that mean?..
<wpwrak>
kyak: it means that you computer overlord calls upon its human servant, i.e., you, to do the searching for it ;-)
<wpwrak>
s/you c/your c/
<LunaVorax>
OH NO
<LunaVorax>
Dammit
<LunaVorax>
I fucked up with the text editor
<LunaVorax>
My translation is destroyed...
<LunaVorax>
marcan, are you there ?
<jivs>
bartbes, i managed to compile those modules by using some guile path. but the guile binary itself still doesn;t run on Ben:-)
<Artyom>
hi kristianpaul
<kristianpaul>
hello Artyom
<Artyom>
How is your success with namuru+osgps?
<kristianpaul>
i founded two posible bugs
<kristianpaul>
in namuru
<kristianpaul>
osgps no updates yet
<kristianpaul>
(osgps) still pain for me to read the code..
<kristianpaul>
the first bug is in the control register, ch1_prn_key_enable <= write & chip_select;
<Artyom>
oh, yes... osgps is very special...
<kristianpaul>
well i'm not sure if a bug but i a shared bus you may get not wanted to change enable register  when you access register 0x10 of another slave
<viric>
"founded two possible bugs :)"
<kristianpaul>
the second well, is a guess for now but some use of combinational logic with sequencial logic in some parts of the code, i need to check that may be replace syncronous logic..
<kristianpaul>
is a guess, as i was told not to abuse of xilinx xst for async..
<kristianpaul>
viric: ;)
<kristianpaul>
Artyom: and i'm reimplemeting control and status, i a no namuru way ;)
<kristianpaul>
Artyom: what about you?
<Artyom>
I've spent couple of weeks on osgps... I've striped the code and left only tracking loops. I also added two accumulators (like in namuru) and changed tracking loops according to my models... Everything worked on PC. But in hardware tracking doesn't work :( Acquisition works fine - I've checked it. So now I will start to strugle with FPGA+namuru and mcu...
<kristianpaul>
Artyom: founded a better way to implement a pull-in algorythm than taking the snipet from osgps? :)
<kristianpaul>
Artyom: ah, you still using namuru, thats good :)
<Artyom>
I prefer to use code that I understand :) And I think that my models should work better - but they demand more computational power...
<kristianpaul>
wait second, you added accumulators in osgps, so what is namuru for then?
<kristianpaul>
(code that understand) yeah, i think all agree with that
<Artyom>
osgps - is for checking algorithms on PC - it's much easier. And namuru is for hardware-board...
<kristianpaul>
ah, ok you working on parallel
<Artyom>
There is still one difference that bother me... (between PC-program and hardware).
<Artyom>
The time when new carrier-frequency and code-frequency are applied: on PC this is done immediately and in hardware there is an unpredictable delay (less then 1 ms)...
<kristianpaul>
(immediately) i tought osgps have a count-loop or something based on a system generic interrupt?, but yeah i always wondering how was it done in the code, never checked tought..
<Artyom>
There is interrupt emulation is osgps. There is endless loop and each cycle of this loop correspond to interrupt. At first correlations are counted and then interrupt is emulating by making a function-call
<kristianpaul>
why the hardware delay i unpredictable? is not that PROG_ACCUM_INT porpuse?
<kristianpaul>
btw, had you recently measure this signals in a scope?
<kristianpaul>
the accum int, tic_enable pre_tic_enable
<Artyom>
because dumps-signal is async...
<Artyom>
yes, I measured accum_int last week
<kristianpaul>
thats a _posible_ bug ;)
<kristianpaul>
what was the period of it?
<Artyom>
not async to system clock... But it's start is unpredictable. It depends on the time of arrival of the signal from satellite\
<Artyom>
And I will check accum_int again, because I'm not sure that I catch each accum_int and don't miss any...
<kristianpaul>
but you're able to get a TLM, TOW? just aftert acquisition and lost tracking?
<Artyom>
TLM, TOW - you mean digital information from the signal?
<kristianpaul>
well, i was wondering if tracking was partianlly working  at least to catch some bits of telemtry
<kristianpaul>
i mean, had you visualized the accumlators over the time, just to see if you can visually indentify some chips?
<kristianpaul>
(if sound logical what i'm asking ;-))
<Artyom>
no, tracking doesn't work at all in hardware :( To get digital data PLL must work.)
<kristianpaul>
and same situation but in osgps?
<Artyom>
Yes, I understand what are you talking about. I tried to see correlators output - nothing was seen :(
<Artyom>
On PC - everything is fine. I can see bits
<kristianpaul>
oh, cool !
<Artyom>
Oh, yes - I've approximately the same pictures
<kristianpaul>
how you ploted it?
<kristianpaul>
ah, from akos code?
<kristianpaul>
or osgps it self? :)
<kristianpaul>
oh, this very odd, i have to reflash my mm1 twice to make it boot again......
<Artyom>
I just wrote in file correlators output and then plotted data in scilab (just a few code lines)
<kristianpaul>
but i was botting okay on friday..
<kristianpaul>
yes, i just cant plot yet with octave ;) (basically my lasyness to do implement it..)
<Artyom>
btw why did you choose octave (not scilab for example)?
<kristianpaul>
dont know, akos code was written for matlab, so octave came to my mind..
<Artyom>
and one more question: what is the main clock in your namuru-code?
<kristianpaul>
clock from gps frontend
<kristianpaul>
actually the whole base banf core is clocked from that, and there is a small clock domain sync for the ACk signal, no more
<kristianpaul>
s/banf/band
<Artyom>
I have some doubts that it's correct...
<kristianpaul>
well, i asked namutu developer and he insisted it should be that way
<kristianpaul>
actually if you remenber my first mail to you about asking th PCB was that i read in your maxim specs i can feed it with a 8Mhz clock
<kristianpaul>
easilly yo get from the FPGA
<Artyom>
that correlator should be clocked with the gps front end clock?
<kristianpaul>
yes, i think i should
<kristianpaul>
well, if your data is latched from the ADC out i dont see problem for not doing it..
<kristianpaul>
but in my case i just dont know, so i just followed what the chip specs said :)
<kristianpaul>
and sync all the correlator with same clock so i'm ensure sampled data is correct
<kristianpaul>
thats my theory :)
<kristianpaul>
btw maxim already sent me 10 samples of their chip :) same you have i think
<kristianpaul>
let forward you a mail
<kristianpaul>
check your mail Artyom
<Artyom>
I just want to note the following:
<Artyom>
Imagine that you try to write new carrier-freq through (ch0_carr_nco)
<Artyom>
But at the same time carrier_nco tries to read the ch0_carr_nco value from
<Artyom>
So you try at the same time to write and to read from the same register
<Artyom>
I don't think this is good...
<kristianpaul>
oh, sorry Artyom
<Artyom>
So I think that in FPGA main clock should be a correlator_clock multiplied by some value
<marcan>
sigh, there is no saving him
<marcan>
uhm
<marcan>
wrong channel, heh
<marcan>
while I'm here though
<marcan>
LunaVorax: you pinged me, I think?
<kristianpaul>
reads last minute backlog
<Artyom>
then you can write to registers at one time and write to them at another time...
<LunaVorax>
marcan, yeah
<kristianpaul>
write and to read from the same register, yeah, for me is not a right implementation in namuru
<LunaVorax>
But I forgot what I wanted to say marcan
<Artyom>
And of coarse fpga-main-clock and front-end-clock must be synchronized... And if fpga-main-clock is a multiple of front-end clock then everything looks fine...
<LunaVorax>
Oh no I got it back
<LunaVorax>
You ever tried to make an old-school-ish game using openlase ?
<kristianpaul>
Artyom:Â Â everything looks fine, yes, but you sample X time same data right?
<LunaVorax>
3D vectrex style
<kristianpaul>
Artyom: at least you alredy handle that in a hardware downcovertion? i mean doint decimation i should think.. may not, i'm not DSP guy :)
<Artyom>
no, I use each sample only once: because I use in accumulators an-enable-signal wich is X times less then fpga-systen-clock
<kristianpaul>
ah okay
<marcan>
LunaVorax: no, but it's on my TODO list :)
<marcan>
well, I did make a pong
<marcan>
(it's in the openlase repo, a few variants actually since I embedded it into the presentation)
<Artyom>
kristianpaul: it's time to leave for me. gn ;)
<kristianpaul>
Artyom: but then you asume by using the DCM as DFS, you are in sync with a main FPGA clock wich is..., i mean what is the clock that actually goes to your top module
<LunaVorax>
marcan, there's a big wall at my father's house (+5meters tall) which is waiting for some laser pong fun someday ;)
<kristianpaul>
Artyom: oh, okay, well rest !
<kristianpaul>
Artyom: i'll try yo catchup to 3 am today i'll see :)
<kristianpaul>
tomorrow is holiday here, so no work
<Artyom>
In my case top module uses front-end-clocked multipleid by 5. You are lucky ;)
<kristianpaul>
well, it depends as i implement whole SoC in the FPGA, you have a separate IC..
<marcan>
LunaVorax: :D
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: btw, your GPS receiver runs from its own oscillator, right ? i.e., the clock doesn't come from the FPGA (?)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: yes, the whole gps base band core uses gps frontend clock
<kristianpaul>
with the only objetive of provide clock from namuru it self
<wpwrak>
ah, cool
<kristianpaul>
something i cant do with SiGe chip as it needs a specific numbered clock..
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak, what you think about about mutpling clock idea from Artyom?
<wpwrak>
to put conflicting accesses into different clock phases ? well, if you have conflicting accesses, that would be one way to handle it
<wpwrak>
otherwise, you also have approaches like reads on rising clock edge, writes on falling clock edge, or similar. depends on your design what works and what not
<kristianpaul>
about your experience with atben and taking clock from Xburst SoC, well.. i asume mm1 SoC is not so complex enought to generate a non trusty clock reference clock
<kristianpaul>
may be lekernel want to coment about the topic?
<lekernel>
huh?
<kristianpaul>
lekernel: you will trust in a clock signal generated from a DCM/Own logic in order to make work an external ADCÂ Â for example?
<lekernel>
mm1 SoC is not so complex enought to generate a non trusty clock reference clock ????
<kristianpaul>
lol
<wpwrak>
i don't know what the clock problem really was. just that the beast produced quite a bit of phase noise. may be that the digital clock jittered. might be that the chip prefers sinusoidal clock signals.
<lekernel>
if it's properly generated and fed through the FPGA I/O buffer, yes
<lekernel>
you need to use DDR output registers to do that correctly on spartan6 by the way
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: it's more than the clock just being accurate. if it's you only clock source, then you're driving a PLL from it. so if the clock jitters, then the PLL will be distorted (a little)
<lekernel>
if you want a clean clock from a DCM
<kristianpaul>
(DRR) thanks, i'll keep in mind :) i even dint knew of that fetures, and who knows what else related...
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: (Jitter) so you actually visualized it? or was the obviuos root case to your problems at that time, then switch to that  external clock was the sane path :)
<kristianpaul>
he, i'll start using encounter verb from now
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer suggested that clock jitter may be responsible for the high noise floor i had observed and he suggested i add a local crystal. so i tried that and the noise went away :)
<kristianpaul>
:)
<wpwrak>
i don't think my equipment is good enough to properly measure that clock. it's 16 MHz (rectangular) and my scope has an analog bandwidth of only 100 MHz (sine)
<wpwrak>
(measure) i mean the jitter. it's more than adequate for measuring the frequency, of course
<wpwrak>
and i'd need an active probe to see the actual analog signal. with a passive probe, the clock fails completely if i touch it
<kristianpaul>
sure sure
<DocScrutinizer>
pleased to hear
<wolfspraul>
DocScrutinizer: how was the camp?
<DocScrutinizer>
funny, but I'm actually too old for such nonsense
<DocScrutinizer>
dealing with cheap tents, wet sleeping bags, showers with 40 person queues, sunburn....