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<
zenspider >
argh. Is there a faster way to just get the count of files in a directory tree? I don't need paths / names / etc so using find | wc -l seems more expensive than necessary
00:03
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<
zenspider >
zzak_: what's up?
00:04
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00:04
<
zenspider >
I'm so bored. entertain me. or something.
00:04
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00:04
<
zzak_ >
zenspider: i look up to you as a maintainer of oss projects, what do you think of this and how i handled it?
https://t.co/EGI6lugvEU
00:05
<
zenspider >
I'm pegging the shit out of my laptop... sec
00:07
<
zenspider >
I think you handled that very professionally. thank you.
00:08
<
zenspider >
iirc, amatsuda is a very shy dev who doesn't speak much english at all. I'm not sure he'd have much to contribute comment-wise
00:08
<
zzak_ >
zenspider: woot, thanks. yeah i saved the complaining for twitter since noone, including you, follows me
00:08
<
zenspider >
I could be misremembering who that is tho
00:08
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00:09
<
zzak_ >
his english is very good, but is just busy with other things
00:09
<
zzak_ >
i can see shy
00:09
<
zenspider >
ok. I might be crossing wires. the picture isn't the best
00:10
<
zzak_ >
he has probably gotten better since you talked with him
00:10
<
zzak_ >
he gave his rubykaigi talk in english this year
00:10
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00:10
<
zenspider >
maybe you can review the PR and put your stamp of approval on it? that might help it get merged quicker
00:11
<
zzak_ >
it needs a rebase, 2 year old patch.. :(
00:11
<
zzak_ >
im mostly combing for major issues, so we can get a release since its been a while and people have been asking
00:11
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00:12
<
zzak_ >
amatsuda gave me commit while i was in japan last month, so im helping the other maintainers when i have time
00:13
<
zenspider >
why not merge if you have commit?
00:13
<
zenspider >
(assuming you approve)
00:13
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00:14
<
zzak_ >
its a new feature and the patch isnt clean
00:14
<
zzak_ >
it wont merge clean anyways
00:14
<
zenspider >
looks clean on github? am I missing something?
00:16
<
zzak_ >
its a small patch, i could probably merge it
00:16
<
zzak_ >
but i'd like yuki's opinion first, since he has been maintainer longer than me
00:16
<
zzak_ >
theres probably a reason he didnt merge it either
00:17
<
zenspider >
at this point, motion seems more important than consensus... it's software, problems can always be fixed later
00:17
<
zenspider >
get it patched up and healthy and it'll make it easier on the other maintainers
00:18
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00:18
<
zzak_ >
yuki is a kaminari pro, i am just an amateur
00:19
<
zzak_ >
but good advice, i went through and closed around 10-15 tickets this afternoon doing just that
00:19
<
zenspider >
they wouldn't have given you commit bit if they didn't respect your contributions
00:20
<
zenspider >
and yuki is hella busy too
00:21
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<
zenspider >
man... I need to be able to distribute this across umpteen machines... and then I need umpteen machines
00:27
<
zzak_ >
you need drb
00:30
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00:32
<
zenspider >
I don't think that'd help the way I'm currently doing things
00:33
<
zenspider >
and it is a LOT of string / file schlepping... doing that and adding drb serialization on top ... I'd guess that'd suck
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<
zzak_ >
how are you distributing now?
00:36
<
zenspider >
I'm not. just running on my laptop
00:36
<
zenspider >
now x3 because I need to test 1.8, 1.9, and 2.0 separately
00:36
<
zenspider >
because I hate myself
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<
zenspider >
I'm in the r's! woot
00:48
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<
zenspider >
ok. I give up
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<
zenspider >
too. warm.
01:26
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01:32
<
arooni-mobile >
is there a security hazard to running this ruby version: "ruby 1.8.7 (2011-02-18 patchlevel 334)"
01:32
<
arooni-mobile >
besides it being old
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<
erikh >
zenspider: heh, wife cooked hamburgers tonight; nearly lost it when I realized that's why I was sweating so hard
01:54
<
erikh >
(needless to say, it was hot, I was already grumpy and yeah)
01:54
<
erikh >
feel horrible now
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<
rickhull >
is it a bad idea to rewrite my .gemspec using a Rake task? what's a good pattern for that?
02:09
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02:10
<
rickhull >
i'm also thinking about rake tasks for things i would otherwise to with `gem`
02:10
<
rickhull >
s/to with/do with/
02:10
<
rickhull >
e.g. rake build # updates the gemspec with today's date; calls `gem build`
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<
rickhull >
i like the idea of persisting e.g. the version number inside the .gemspec in version control
02:46
<
rickhull >
s/version control/revision control/
02:47
<
rickhull >
and having rake tasks update the file as appropriate
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03:19
<
rickhull >
hm, just use hoe(™) ?
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04:07
<
rickhull >
hm, hoe seems a bit confusing for an existing project that already builds using `gem`
04:07
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04:08
<
rickhull >
can I keep my existing README.md in that format? do i need a README.txt in hoe's format?
04:09
<
rickhull >
what happens with my existing .gemspec?
04:09
<
rickhull >
it's hard to tell what's going to happen when I run `rake release`
04:09
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04:10
<
rickhull >
plugins for gemcutter, rubyforge, but not rubygems.org?
04:10
<
rickhull >
do i need this .autotest file thing
04:11
<
drbrain >
rickhull: rubygems pushing is built-in, not a plugin
04:11
<
drbrain >
rickhull: if you have the graph gem, `graph rake` will create a png of the rake task dependencies
04:11
<
drbrain >
or you can use rake -P and follow it yourself
04:11
<
rickhull >
might have some more qs
04:12
<
drbrain >
you don't need .autotest if you don't use autotest
04:12
<
rickhull >
i removed it from the default .hoetemplate
04:12
<
drbrain >
you can customize the project template if you like to use your defaults
04:13
<
rickhull >
can i leverage developer("Rick Hull", "rick@email.com") in other erb stuff?
04:13
<
drbrain >
for generation? no
04:13
<
drbrain >
at least, not that I know of
04:14
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04:15
<
rickhull >
** README.md is missing or in the wrong format for auto-intuiting.
04:15
<
rickhull >
run `sow blah` and look at its text files
04:15
<
rickhull >
that's my issue with the formatting
04:15
<
drbrain >
you need to use some of the hoe formatting for URLs
04:15
<
drbrain >
you should have the same list of URLs at the top
04:16
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04:16
<
rickhull >
all i really want is dates and automatic versioning in my .gemspec
04:17
<
rickhull >
and then stick the .gem in pkg/
04:17
<
rickhull >
i started with rolling my own rake stuff
04:17
<
rickhull >
then that got hairy so now looking at hoe
04:17
<
rickhull >
but some of my opinions aren't meshing well with hoe's
04:18
<
rickhull >
i decided a few years ago that markdown (or something very similar) is the ONE TRUE WAY for text files
04:18
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04:19
<
drbrain >
I think you just need to have the URLs and the Description block
04:19
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04:20
<
rickhull >
maybe i keep my README.md
04:20
<
rickhull >
and add a README.hoe
04:20
<
rickhull >
with appropriate Spec#readme_file
04:21
<
rickhull >
then i'm ALL WET
04:21
<
rickhull >
not DRY ;)
04:21
<
erikh >
hoe's never had a .hoe extension for anything
04:21
<
rickhull >
i just mean, to keep hoe happy
04:21
<
rickhull >
could be .txt w/e
04:21
<
erikh >
or .txt. you may be right
04:21
<
erikh >
rickhull: you see my message about the 4th?
04:22
<
rickhull >
yeah, i'm tentative
04:22
<
erikh >
yeah, it's gonna be quiet, just saying.. wouldn't blame you if you found something better to do
04:22
<
rickhull >
sounds good, but my roommate may be back by then. if he is, we may stay in the city
04:22
<
erikh >
and because BART I can't really head up there easily
04:22
<
drbrain >
I know there's a hoe project with a README.md
04:22
<
drbrain >
I just don't remember what it is
04:23
<
rickhull >
it's not a huge deal, i can adjust if need be
04:26
<
rickhull >
man, i visited a friend in Pacifica yesterday
04:26
<
rickhull >
he was going to come into the city but then was like, wait, Pride
04:26
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04:26
<
rickhull >
so plans changed, I take BART to Colma, he picks me up
04:27
<
rickhull >
google maps said it was like 10 min bike ride, 20 minute train ride
04:27
<
erikh >
hahahhahahah
04:27
<
rickhull >
except the nearest BART station is Ground Zero for Pride
04:27
<
rickhull >
as i found out
04:27
<
erikh >
you should see caltrain during a giants game
04:27
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04:27
<
rickhull >
took me 15 minutes of wading through the flesh to get to the BART entrance
04:27
<
rickhull >
which was like 99.9% people exiting BART for Pride
04:28
<
rickhull >
and me, wee salmon, swimming upstream
04:28
<
erikh >
oh, you went against the flow
04:28
<
rickhull >
big time
04:28
<
rickhull >
thank god i took the longboard and not the bike
04:28
<
erikh >
yeah, 6pm on the bart to * is kind of a mess
04:28
<
erikh >
MUNI's trains are even worse
04:29
<
erikh >
boss this week with the strike just said "Everybody WFH"
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04:37
<
drbrain >
gemcutter is the old name for rubygems.org
04:38
<
rickhull >
so just `rake gem` to build the .gem?
04:38
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04:38
<
drbrain >
rake package
04:38
<
rickhull >
that does gem build and sticks it in pkg/ for me?
04:38
<
drbrain >
at least, I always hook the package task
04:39
<
drbrain >
↑ is for rdoc
04:39
<
drbrain >
I guess I need to clean up the tags plugin's tasks somehow
04:39
<
rickhull >
glad to help :P
04:41
<
drbrain >
I'm using rdoc-tags (a plugin) and hoe-travis (another plugin) in rdoc
04:41
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04:42
<
rickhull >
is it weird that hoe defines a rake task with unmet dependencies?
04:43
<
rickhull >
`rake audit` wants to `zentest`
04:43
<
drbrain >
sounds odd, I don't think I've ever run `rake audit`
04:44
<
rickhull >
i have no doubt that hoe is the bee's knees for appropriate values of development environment
04:44
<
rickhull >
but there's a lot here, concept-wise, that doesn't apply
04:45
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04:46
<
rickhull >
i.e. it's a little too purpose-built for my tastes
04:46
<
rickhull >
c'est la vie. still evaluating :)
04:46
<
erikh >
different tools for different tools
04:47
<
rickhull >
yeah, is it more hairy to roll my own .gemspec rewrites?
04:47
<
rickhull >
or pull in a lot of seattlerb "baggage" (for lack of a better term)
04:47
<
Tobarja >
what's On/Off Topic here vs #ruby?
04:48
<
rickhull >
if it's related to ruby programming, you get a pretty wide berth
04:48
<
erikh >
#ruby is off-topic
04:49
<
erikh >
rickhull: these days I like 'bundle genm'
04:49
<
erikh >
'bundle gem' too
04:49
<
erikh >
hoe's nice, but not quite what I want.
04:49
<
Tobarja >
erikh: as in first rule of fight club, or #ruby is the off channel?
04:49
<
erikh >
this is a silly place
04:49
<
rickhull >
mostly drama-free
04:49
<
erikh >
Tobarja: don't sweat it and ask
04:50
<
rickhull >
#ruby vs #ruby-lang is drama
04:50
<
rickhull >
stick with programming questions
04:50
<
rickhull >
and bay area / seattle trivialities
04:50
<
erikh >
a lot less rails people in here from what i'm told
04:50
<
erikh >
so, a lot of times you'll get sent to #ror
04:50
<
Tobarja >
erikh: no burning question, just getting bearings
04:51
<
erikh >
ok, well, I wouldn't sweat it too hard
04:51
<
erikh >
lurk, it's mostly high signal
04:53
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04:53
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04:53
<
whitequark >
erikh: rickhull: there's also 'ore'
04:54
<
whitequark >
which is similarly simple to `bundle gem', but doesn't imply a bundler dependency and is more configurable
04:54
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04:54
<
erikh >
lurrrrve the bundler
04:55
<
rickhull >
i dunno, doesn't bundler break shabangs?
04:55
<
rickhull >
#! bundler exec ruby ?
04:55
<
whitequark >
rickhull: what?
04:56
<
rickhull >
once you start using bundler, things seem to only work right if you use `bundle exec ruby`
04:56
<
whitequark >
gem install rubygems-bundler
04:56
<
erikh >
oh god not that thing
04:56
<
whitequark >
it's awesome
04:57
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04:57
<
rickhull >
bundler as a concept just really muddies the waters for me
04:57
<
rickhull >
i'll plead to ignorance all day
04:57
<
erikh >
you see my bloggy mcblogs?
04:57
<
rickhull >
not recently
04:57
<
erikh >
I have rubygems things you should read
04:58
<
erikh >
drbrain: you've seen these
04:58
<
rickhull >
yeah i read that one :)
04:58
<
rickhull >
you wrote that for me :)
04:58
<
rickhull >
prompted by me anway
04:58
<
rickhull >
where's my check?
04:58
<
erikh >
understanding the role bundler plays is really important
04:58
<
erikh >
rickhull: you'd owe me money if I sent you one
04:58
<
rickhull >
fair enough
04:59
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04:59
<
rickhull >
i owe you one for that post as it stands
04:59
<
erikh >
anyhow, the second goes into bundler, and what it's good for and why you should use it for things and junk and stuff.
04:59
<
rickhull >
here is the burning question:
04:59
<
erikh >
bundler's not an inherently bad tool.
04:59
<
rickhull >
to what extent is bundler required for modern gem development?
04:59
<
drbrain >
I don't use it
05:00
<
rickhull >
how far can you go without it, and how painfully?
05:00
<
erikh >
drbrain would be better equipped to answer that than I
05:00
<
rickhull >
it's such an environment munger, magical, that i don't trust it until i totally understand it
05:00
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05:00
<
erikh >
that's fair
05:00
<
rickhull >
and i'm far from understanding it
05:00
<
erikh >
I just, well, I'm ok with it these days
05:00
<
erikh >
it solves problems I Have.
05:00
<
rickhull >
i don't disagree at all
05:00
<
drbrain >
RubyGems 2.1 will use a bundler-like resolver for installing gems
05:00
<
erikh >
drbrain: I'm really looking forward to that
05:01
<
erikh >
I will admit bundler is a hack.
05:01
<
drbrain >
it's already used for activation in RubyGems 2
05:01
<
erikh >
and would like rubygems to solve this problem instead
05:01
<
erikh >
but I am of finite resource as are you, so, uh, don't take that the wrong way
05:02
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05:02
<
erikh >
I still have to finish parallel downloads. too much shit going on atm
05:02
<
erikh >
I should just put in an issue and hope someone else has the time to tackle it.
05:03
<
rickhull >
i like the guarantees that bundler provides, and the relatively simple user-level mechanisms to provide them. but it really does seem to pull the rug out from everything you learned about ruby development
05:03
<
erikh >
no, rubygems doing it is the right solution(tm)
05:03
<
rickhull >
well, not everything. but important bases and filesystem mappings
05:04
<
erikh >
looking forward to 2.1.
05:04
<
drbrain >
when you get to rails app levels of dependencies, released versions of rubygems can't manage things properly
05:04
<
erikh >
bundler has to do some gymnastics to work with rubygems
05:04
<
rickhull >
yeah, bundler is oriented towards "app development"
05:04
<
erikh >
so fuller integration is very good.
05:04
<
rickhull >
whereas most of the stuff i'm interested in is library development
05:05
<
rickhull >
and i actively avoid nasty dependencies, mostly successfully (fortunately)
05:05
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05:06
<
ryanf >
drbrain: are you aiming to fully replace bundler, or just reduce the number of use cases where it's necessary?
05:06
<
drbrain >
ryanf: we don't aim to have gems built and installed from git built-in to rubygems
05:06
<
drbrain >
we can make it a plugin, though
05:06
<
ryanf >
that is actually one of the things I had in mind when I asked :)
05:06
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05:06
<
ryanf >
I remember you and/or zenspider saying that was stupid
05:07
<
ryanf >
I guess what I'm actually saying is, it sometimes seems like you guys are slightly out of sync with the general ruby-using public w/r/t what features are useful vs stupid
05:07
<
ryanf >
but I guess if plugins can address those discrepencies then it's cool
05:07
<
ryanf >
theoretically
05:08
<
drbrain >
it seems rather perilous
05:08
<
rickhull >
i think bundler is oriented towards app devs, more to the front end. possibly more to "the ruby community"
05:08
<
rickhull >
and the scope of bundler and rubygems overlap
05:08
<
rickhull >
it's not clear where one takes over
05:08
<
rickhull >
and i think historically bundler compensated for missing rubygems features
05:09
<
ryanf >
drbrain: it really isn't in practice, but that's neither here nor there I guess
05:09
<
rickhull >
but it's delicate when someone's baby gets the axe, in terms of who owns what functionality
05:09
<
ryanf >
if you're confident that you can support that kind of thing as a plugin, your personal opinion of it isn't that relevant, which is ideal
05:09
<
ryanf >
so that's cool to hear
05:10
<
drbrain >
evan wrote the rubygems resolver such that it easy to plug in new sources
05:10
<
erikh >
just, uh, maintenance burden is an issue
05:10
<
erikh >
drbrain: did the index format change too?
05:10
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05:10
<
drbrain >
not for 2.1
05:10
<
drbrain >
André (indirect) is working on that
05:10
<
erikh >
is that going into 3 or before then?
05:10
<
erikh >
right, I remember you mentioning it
05:10
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05:11
<
drbrain >
it'll come in a 2.x, we won't be removing the third(?) generation index
05:11
<
drbrain >
I'm unsure how to count the generations
05:11
<
erikh >
heh, use gem requirements
05:11
<
rickhull >
bundler reminds me of rails and rvm. a nice user-level interface and simple docs. but when things go wrong, it's a nightmare to try to understand exactly what's going on
05:11
<
rickhull >
s/wrong/unexpected/
05:11
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05:11
<
erikh >
'<= 2.1', '>= 1.8'
05:11
<
rickhull >
to me, rbenv ate rvm's lunch, and rightly so
05:12
<
rickhull >
and maybe chruby eats rbenv
05:12
<
erikh >
it's 100 LoC
05:12
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05:12
<
erikh >
it's hard to argue with elegance-wise.
05:12
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05:12
<
erikh >
that and I wrote something similar a few years ago and am partial to such simplicity
05:13
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05:13
<
erikh >
anyhow, time to make puppet things go
05:13
<
drbrain >
I guess the versions are: original YAML index (1), partial update YAML index (1.1), YAML-style Marshal index (2), the current index (3)
05:14
<
rickhull >
so my take is: to the extent rubygems can't do what people want it to, use a layer above rubygems like hoe or bundler
05:14
<
rickhull >
but i'd prefer to adopt things i understand, the less the better
05:14
<
rickhull >
a minimalist if you will
05:15
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05:15
<
drbrain >
hoe is a bunch of rake tasks atop Gem::PackageTask
05:15
<
postmodern >
hoe is also a project generator
05:15
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05:15
<
rickhull >
s/is/provides/
05:15
<
postmodern >
and reads some of the project metadata from the README
05:15
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05:15
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05:16
<
postmodern >
there's actually a lot of projects that only build gems
05:16
<
postmodern >
mg, gem-release, etc
05:17
<
rickhull >
postmodern: how do you manage your .gemspec files? dates and versions?
05:17
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05:17
<
rickhull >
also, do you have chruby batphone?
05:18
<
rickhull >
er, batsignal
05:18
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05:18
<
postmodern >
rickhull, gemspec.date defaults to Date.today for a while now
05:18
<
postmodern >
rickhull, also most people just load the version.rb file
05:18
<
rickhull >
aha! rubygems.org might use an update
05:18
<
rickhull >
guides.rubygems.org
05:18
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05:18
<
postmodern >
rickhull, i wrote a configurable project generator that does all of that
05:18
<
postmodern >
rickhull, and i prefer to call it chruby spiddy sense
05:19
<
rickhull >
here is what i have in mind
05:19
<
rickhull >
1. edit lib/file
05:19
<
rickhull >
2. run tests
05:19
<
rickhull >
3. run build task, specify patch/minor/major increment
05:20
<
rickhull >
4. publish
05:20
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05:20
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05:20
<
postmodern >
might want to look at mg, rubygems-tasks, gem-release
05:20
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05:20
<
postmodern >
also bundlers gem tasks also provides most of that
05:21
<
postmodern >
i think gem-release supports version bumping, but i don't trust anything that auto-bumps
05:21
<
havenn_ >
auto-tagging too
05:21
<
rickhull >
my idea was gem push_patch
05:21
<
rickhull >
er, rake push_patch
05:21
<
rickhull >
autoincrements the patchnum
05:22
<
postmodern >
could easily add that as a custom rake task
05:22
<
drbrain >
hoe-git creates tags for git
05:22
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05:22
<
rickhull >
also build_patch, publish_patch
05:22
<
rickhull >
likewise for minor, major
05:23
<
postmodern >
rickhull, read the readme's of hoe, bundler, mg, rubygems-tasks, gem-release
05:23
<
rickhull >
i'm up to my eyeballs in hoe and bundler
05:23
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05:23
<
rickhull >
hoe's documentation i find somewhat lacking
05:23
<
postmodern >
rickhull, gem bump --version patch
05:23
<
rickhull >
bundler too, though for different reasons
05:24
<
rickhull >
postmodern: cool
05:24
<
rickhull >
so, do i roll my own .gemspec code for assigning version from lib/version.rb?
05:25
<
rickhull >
i like the idea of a concrete .gemspec for a given version
05:25
<
postmodern >
gem bootstrap
05:27
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05:28
<
rickhull >
cool, gem-release seems more aligned with my intuition (for better or worse ;)
05:29
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05:30
<
rickhull >
if i could suggest a feature for hoe: `sow .` # examines current project dir for compatible files and uses them where appropriate
05:31
<
rickhull >
e.g. creates a comprehensive Manifest.txt
05:31
<
whitequark >
hoe is really a "worksforme" project. "it works for me, if you don't like it, fuck off."
05:31
<
whitequark >
(unsurprisingly)
05:32
<
rickhull >
yeah, that's my feeling so far
05:32
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05:32
<
rickhull >
and i'm in the latter category for now
05:32
<
whitequark >
it's also really ancient, hence what appears as a blatant disregard for best practices
05:32
<
whitequark >
(which weren't there.)
05:34
<
rickhull >
that tension is always there. building what you need versus general purpose. i'll never slag on somebody for building what they need. that's how bateman started
05:35
<
rickhull >
so then it's like, ok, i should release this
05:35
<
rickhull >
then it's all oh noes i'm not Doing The Right Thing
05:36
<
rickhull >
i'm not anticipating every possible use case, the horrors!
05:38
<
rickhull >
X11's maxim is mechanism, not policy
05:38
<
rickhull >
rails' says we have an opinion, policy
05:39
<
rickhull >
they each make sense at different layers
05:39
<
rickhull >
the hard part (™) is deciding what makes sense for the layer you're stuck at
05:39
<
whitequark >
honestly I'm not sure if X11 makes sense
05:39
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05:40
<
whitequark >
if you are generic enough, you appeal for all use cases and suck on all of them
05:40
<
rickhull >
i think "mechanism, not policy" is absolutely the right design decision for certain layers
05:40
<
whitequark >
if you're not ("opinionated"), then you're good for some and bad for others
05:40
<
rickhull >
typically lower level
05:40
<
rickhull >
higher up the stack, you apply policy
05:40
<
whitequark >
rickhull: right, that's why we have about five mutually incompatible direct rendering mechanisms in X11
05:40
<
whitequark >
and, I think, three mutually incompatible font rendering ones
05:41
<
rickhull >
it's not a panacea
05:41
<
whitequark >
and that all ends in using X11 for sending bitmaps around
05:41
<
whitequark >
aka VNC.
05:41
<
rickhull >
luckily someone is always in the wings ready to eat your lunch
05:41
<
rickhull >
a feature, not a bug
05:41
<
whitequark >
it's not a panacea: it's an antipattern
05:41
<
rickhull >
i think the design rubric changes depending on how high/low you are on the stack
05:41
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05:41
<
rickhull >
low level just provides mechanism, higher level provides policy
05:42
<
rickhull >
a tightening of the vocabulary to desired states / happy paths
05:42
<
whitequark >
this ends in: 1) overcomplicated low-level implementation, 90% of which no one actually uses 2) ineffective happy paths
05:42
<
whitequark >
and X11 perfectly demonstrates this
05:43
<
whitequark >
a poster child, if you'd like.
05:43
<
rickhull >
well i certainly agree you can choose a good design ethos and fail at implementation
05:43
<
whitequark >
show me an example when there's a good implementation
05:43
<
rickhull >
i think another antipattern is to apply policy to early, too low-level
05:44
<
rickhull >
i.e. leaky abstractions
05:44
<
rickhull >
in the case of bateman, i abstract away response codes and headers, for the convenience methods
05:44
* whitequark
shrugs
05:44
<
whitequark >
literally all abstractions leak
05:44
<
rickhull >
it comes down to tradeoffs
05:44
<
rickhull >
what's the right tradeoff for this layer
05:44
<
whitequark >
you can write a piece of JavaScript code which will be dependent on x86 cache behavior
05:45
<
whitequark >
the word "policy" implies something arbitrary
05:45
<
rickhull >
so bateman has a mixture of policy and mechanism, which is about right i think. it's middleware, in a sense
05:45
<
rickhull >
you can bypass policy by using the lower-level #resource
05:46
<
rickhull >
skip all the assumptions and handholding
05:46
<
whitequark >
if this is possible, then what you have built is not an abstraction
05:46
<
whitequark >
it's indirection
05:46
<
rickhull >
i'll cop to that
05:46
<
rickhull >
what's the distinction?
05:47
<
rickhull >
i would say: I provide an abstraction, but also a way to bypass it
05:47
<
whitequark >
but tl;dr would be:
05:47
<
rickhull >
does Zed incorporate my stance in his critique?
05:47
<
whitequark >
if you add an abstraction, you provide (and guarantee) some invariants
05:47
<
rickhull >
reading...
05:47
<
rickhull >
yeah, i do
05:48
<
whitequark >
if you allow to bypass your abstraction, you essentially allow the user to break these invariants
05:48
<
rickhull >
you can bypass the invariant door if you need to
05:48
<
whitequark >
that's not how invariants work :)
05:48
<
whitequark >
meaning
05:48
<
rickhull >
the invariants describe a configuration of the world that may not correspond to reality
05:48
<
whitequark >
nothing can actually rely on these invariants, if bypassing them is a part of interface
05:48
<
rickhull >
sometimes reality breaks your invariants
05:48
<
whitequark >
then you have to give up on your abstraction completely.
05:48
<
rickhull >
not completely
05:49
<
whitequark >
you either provide an invariant or you don't.
05:49
<
rickhull >
that's a false dichotomy
05:49
<
rickhull >
i provide an invariant. it's up the user to apply it
05:49
<
erikh >
I like big butts and I cannot lie
05:49
<
whitequark >
aka: either your code works correctly or it doesn't.
05:49
<
erikh >
you other brothers can't deny
05:49
<
rickhull >
haha, my code works when reality matches the assumption
05:49
<
rickhull >
it blows up when it reality doesn't
05:49
<
erikh >
when a girl walks in with a itty bitty invariant and a round abstraction in your face
05:49
<
erikh >
you get ZED
05:50
<
rickhull >
if you don't want to handle the blowups and lack of data when it blows up, bypass the assumptions and code them yourself
05:50
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05:50
<
erikh >
wanna pull out the refactoring editor 'cause you know that butt is stuck
05:50
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05:50
<
whitequark >
rickhull: I'm not going to argue with you whether code which works correctly sometimes is "correct", because that's a waste of time
05:50
<
whitequark >
but I will still explain one last example
05:50
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05:50
<
rickhull >
it guarantees correctness
05:50
<
rickhull >
else it blows up
05:50
<
erikh >
man you guys are no fun
05:50
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05:51
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05:51
<
rickhull >
if we agree that every abstraction is leaky
05:51
<
rickhull >
then we should also agree that a mechanism to bypass the abstraction is not Harmful (tm)
05:51
<
whitequark >
if, suppose, I build a library which imports the interface of your library
05:51
<
whitequark >
can it rely on invariants provided by it?
05:51
<
whitequark >
if it can't, then they are not invariants.
05:51
<
rickhull >
there are two interfaces provide by the lib
05:51
<
rickhull >
1. convenience methods, invariants
05:52
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05:52
<
rickhull >
2. bypass, pass go, collect $200
05:52
<
whitequark >
indirection, then.
05:52
<
rickhull >
works for me. is it a bad word?
05:52
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05:53
<
whitequark >
it provides different kind of value
05:53
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05:53
<
rickhull >
the best, imho. just like you can embed HTML in markdown
05:53
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05:53
<
whitequark >
excellent example
05:53
<
rickhull >
it naturally follows from the understanding that all abstractions are leaky
05:54
<
whitequark >
if I can't embed HTML in markdown, then it abstracts over whatever the rendering engine is
05:54
<
rickhull >
let's just push most of the functionality into the abstract
05:54
<
whitequark >
and I can render markdown to HTML, epub and pdf.
05:54
<
rickhull >
and settle with what we can't
05:54
<
erikh >
the abstract poetic
05:54
<
erikh >
I'm going to derail this conversation
05:54
<
whitequark >
and if I can, that's just indirection for HTML. it does not provide more expressive power than it
05:54
<
erikh >
it's only a matter of time
05:54
<
rickhull >
q-tip whatchu on the mic for?
05:54
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05:54
<
rickhull >
representin from queens?
05:54
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05:54
arpit_ has joined #ruby-lang
05:54
<
whitequark >
aka, shorter way to write tags.
05:55
<
rickhull >
bateman provides less expressive power
05:55
<
whitequark >
I'm not saying that a shorter way to write tags is not useful, or less useful
05:55
<
whitequark >
I'm saying it is a different kind of thing.
05:55
<
rickhull >
it depends on how you measure power i guess
05:55
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05:55
<
rickhull >
but it fundamentally constrains the process
05:55
<
erikh >
terseness can provide useful indirection
05:55
<
rickhull >
it blows up when you fall off the happy path
05:55
<
erikh >
but otherwise, I agree with zed.
05:56
<
whitequark >
erikh: I agree with you too
05:56
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05:56
<
erikh >
that said, all this hippie shit isn't computering
05:56
* rickhull
still hasn't read the zed
05:56
<
erikh >
computering is about metal
05:56
<
rickhull >
mentarbation alert!
05:56
<
rickhull >
somebody call zenspider
05:56
<
erikh >
very much so
05:56
<
whitequark >
use nodejs
05:56
<
whitequark >
it is close to metal
05:57
<
erikh >
thought leaders tried to kill the metal
05:57
<
erikh >
and the metal rose, and struck them down
05:58
<
rickhull >
whitequark: from zed: Indirection causes this complexity. # EJB example
05:58
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05:59
<
rickhull >
does zed's indirection critique apply to bateman? honest question
05:59
* rickhull
adorns flameproof suit
05:59
dingus_k_ has joined #ruby-lang
05:59
<
whitequark >
rickhull: the answer is sometimes; just like EJB sometimes works
05:59
<
whitequark >
a concrete example may be
05:59
<
whitequark >
if something built on top of bateman frequently needs to access the low-level context, then it may very well be better without bateman
06:00
<
rickhull >
forget that bateman is my new baby, born today. i think it's a useful case study in engineering design
06:00
<
rickhull >
for better or worse
06:00
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06:00
<
rickhull >
so yeah, they could be better off without it
06:00
<
rickhull >
just use RestClient::Resource
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06:00
<
whitequark >
for a moment, I'll remind you how the argument started: I disagreed with your usage of word "abstraction"
06:00
<
whitequark >
not your design or smth else
06:01
<
rickhull >
i'm holding up bateman as Good Design (™) in terms of breaking the abstraction
06:01
<
rickhull >
whatever terminology we want to use
06:01
<
rickhull >
i'm happy to back away from that, even if it hurts
06:01
<
whitequark >
if you're breaking the abstraction, there's no abstraction anymore :) which is what we see
06:01
<
rickhull >
right. that's Good Design (tm)
06:02
<
whitequark >
that's subjective
06:02
<
rickhull >
for sure. i'm not clear on what the substantive criticism is
06:02
<
rickhull >
other than EJB blah blah
06:02
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06:02
<
whitequark >
I think zed says more or less the same what I do
06:02
<
rickhull >
it reads like a generalization from a shitty case study
06:02
<
rickhull >
but i ahven't read the whole thing :P
06:03
<
rickhull >
i remain curious which are the salient points of zed's critique that apply to bateman
06:03
<
rue >
The hell are you talking about?
06:03
<
rickhull >
and would love to have my mind blown
06:04
<
rickhull >
so many shameless plugs :P
06:04
<
rue >
A designed program can’t in its entirety break abstraction
06:04
<
rue >
Because it /is/ the abstraction
06:05
<
erikh >
rue: mind blown
06:05
<
erikh >
also I hope you're doing well and LTNS and all that.
06:05
<
rickhull >
i'm just saying, i love abstractions and layered principles in design. each layer should have a distinct vocabulary and separation of concern
06:05
<
rickhull >
but sometimes the layer you imagined needs to be bypassed
06:05
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06:05
<
rickhull >
and there's nothing wrong with that
06:05
<
erikh >
I'm gonna be nice about this
06:05
<
erikh >
there's an old usenet post
06:06
<
whitequark >
... filled with rage?
06:06
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06:06
<
erikh >
about junior programmer code, senior programmer code, and hacker code
06:06
<
erikh >
with code examples.
06:06
<
erikh >
let me see if I can find it
06:06
<
whitequark >
erikh: oh, I know what you're talking about
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<
rickhull >
tl;dr i win \o/
06:08
<
erikh >
no, it's just ... something I've noticed. people who get caught up in design .. "stuff" tend to write less eloquent code
06:08
<
rickhull >
and people who don't, stink
06:08
<
erikh >
then I stink pretty bad
06:09
<
whitequark >
erikh: I think the key part is "caught up"
06:09
<
erikh >
I think you both are right now, atm
06:09
<
erikh >
that's some real talk ahem
06:09
<
erikh >
you're both good programmers, so stop it
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06:09
<
rickhull >
only if i get 5 github stars
06:10
<
rickhull >
look, options are good and never hurt
06:11
<
rickhull >
you have the option to bypass and use the #raw_methods
06:11
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06:11
<
rickhull >
use them at your discretion / peril
06:11
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06:11
<
rickhull >
or use a different lib
06:11
<
erikh >
oh, I wasn't bitching about your code
06:11
<
rickhull >
no i know
06:11
<
rickhull >
i'm being mostly silly
06:11
<
rickhull >
but haha only serious
06:11
<
erikh >
stop being so defensive about it
06:11
<
erikh >
a) it's your first gem b) fuck the haters
06:11
<
rickhull >
tongue firmly in cheek
06:12
<
erikh >
dr. erikh has left the building
06:12
<
rickhull >
it was a terrible decision to use my first gem as a case study in software design
06:12
<
rickhull >
not the first, not the last
06:13
<
rickhull >
but i honestly don't care about the gem. i do care / have a point about the decisions that went into it
06:13
<
rickhull >
the upside is, i love to have my mind blown
06:13
<
rickhull >
it really is an open mind, at least i've convinced myself
06:14
<
rickhull >
i just put up a big front because i've convinced myself
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<
rickhull >
i hold few opinions firmly, and the ones I do are the result of great deliberation. Some people can't handle the cognitive dissonance of having their firmly held beliefs shattered. I like to think I encourage the practice
06:19
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<
rickhull >
so to knock heads like this is fun and eye-opening to me, not negative in any way :)
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<
rickhull >
anyway it's late:30, cheers yall
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<
rue >
erikh: Hi there
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<
Joni_79 >
I'm gonna ask silly newbie questions again, prepare your selfs.. :p
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<
Joni_79 >
Whats the meaning of :: in syntax? eg. AboutClasses::Dog7 (in one koans case). I'm not sure how to interpit "::". Any pointers or help? :)
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<
drbrain >
Joni_79: it's for namespacing
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<
Joni_79 >
drbrain: so it's always used when describing namespaces? eg. ClassFoo::SubClassFoo::MethodFoo or something like that?
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<
Joni_79 >
Ok. seems clear enough
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<
yorickpeterse >
morning
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<
yorickpeterse >
Does anybody know if it's possible to mount Sinatra apps inside another ones but using a namespace?
10:34
<
yorickpeterse >
So basically like map + run in raw Rack
10:34
<
yorickpeterse >
but inside a Sinatra::Base subclass
10:35
<
injekt >
I'm not sure you can ou the box
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<
injekt >
I usually end up subclasses sinatra base and mapping them separately
10:35
<
yorickpeterse >
hmpf
10:36
<
yorickpeterse >
I need for these sub apps to inherit the config of the base one
10:36
<
injekt >
there's probably a better way, maybe ask in a sinatra channel
10:36
<
whitequark >
yorickpeterse++
10:36
<
whitequark >
seen docs
10:36
<
yorickpeterse >
kekek, I have an evil idea
10:37
<
yorickpeterse >
configure is just a class method so I can call it from the outside.
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<
yorickpeterse >
In which 5 Unicorn workers are slower than 1 Thin process
14:36
<
yorickpeterse >
makes total sense
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<
yorickpeterse >
oh shit, I have an actual use-case for Rainbows! I think
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<
dernise >
Is there a libre license that doesn't allow commercial use of my project ?
14:47
<
dernise >
Well only me can sell it.
14:48
<
yorickpeterse >
or maybe Puma, hmmm
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<
Olipro >
dernise: CC BY-NC-SA 3.0?
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<
darix >
Olipro: not sure that is a good license for code
15:11
<
darix >
it is more targetted at pictures/music/video
15:12
<
erikh >
you want the indemnity clauses
15:12
<
erikh >
even if you require nothing more from the end-users
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<
crankharder >
erg, whats the syntax for overriding '<<' on something?
15:14
<
Mon_Ouie >
def <<(x)
15:14
<
Mon_Ouie >
They're all just regular methods
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<
erikh >
thing <operator> other can usually be translated to thing.operator(other)
15:15
<
erikh >
there are some exceptions though
15:15
<
crankharder >
er, right.. why's this giving me hell then?
15:15
<
crankharder >
def self.recipes <<(recipe)
15:16
<
Mon_Ouie >
Because you foo.recipes << bar calls foo.recipes and, on the result of that call, #<<
15:16
<
Mon_Ouie >
It's not a single method
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<
Olipro >
so what's the HTML templating flavour of the moment? HAML? Slim?
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<
yorickpeterse >
End verdict: Puma is pretty sweet usage wise
16:05
<
erikh >
I need to embed a monolith into it soon
16:05
<
erikh >
code looks pretty straightforward
16:05
<
yorickpeterse >
a what?
16:05
<
erikh >
a scheduler/reactor of sorts
16:05
<
erikh >
long story.
16:06
<
erikh >
I need the fact it can handle long-running connections and doesn't choke on threads.
16:07
<
erikh >
unlike... everything else
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<
yorickpeterse >
I like the attitude of puma (and other self-restarting servers): GEM NOT FOUND? RESTART!
16:17
<
yorickpeterse >
GEM NOT FOUND? RESTART AGAIN
16:17
<
yorickpeterse >
etc
16:17
<
yorickpeterse >
and of course it logs it so you'll quickly get a log bomb
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<
andrewvos >
>> thing = 1; thing++1; thing == 2
16:35
<
andrewvos >
>> thing = 1; thing++; thing == 2
16:35
<
andrewvos >
>> thing = 1; thing++ ; thing == 2
16:35
<
andrewvos >
>> thing = 1 ; thing++ ; thing == 2
16:35
<
andrewvos >
The hell?
16:36
<
andrewvos >
>> thing = 1 ; thing+=1 ; thing == 2
16:36
<
yorickpeterse >
++ doesn't exist
16:36
<
andrewvos >
It does in irb and in pry
16:36
<
yorickpeterse >
lrn2ruby
16:36
<
yorickpeterse >
and no, it doesn't
16:38
<
andrewvos >
yorickpeterse: You see?
16:39
<
injekt >
that's because you do
16:39
<
injekt >
which prints 2
16:39
<
injekt >
if you do 'thing' again it'll print 1
16:39
<
andrewvos >
Right, I'm moving to Go
16:40
<
andrewvos >
Or maybe JavaScript
16:40
<
andrewvos >
I clearly cannot ruby
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16:40
<
erikh >
happy happy
16:40
<
erikh >
happy happy
16:41
<
injekt >
>> 1++++++++++++++++++++++++++++1
16:41
<
andrewvos >
hahaha I'm gonna push that to production
16:41
<
andrewvos >
2+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++1
16:41
<
andrewvos >
>> 2+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++1
16:41
<
erikh >
>> 8===================='D'
16:41
<
injekt >
+x returns x
16:41
<
andrewvos >
>> 3=========================()
16:41
<
erikh >
>> 8====================='D'
16:41
<
andrewvos >
Nice try
16:41
<
erikh >
it was worth a shot
16:41
<
injekt >
(if @+ is implemented, that is)
16:42
<
erikh >
I guess I could do it with plusses
16:42
<
whitequark >
andrewvos: gem install parser --pre; ruby-parse --explain -e "some code you have no idea about"
16:43
<
erikh >
"well, you see, the dong starts at the 8, and then tries to repeatedly compare it's value to itself until it reaches the 'D'"
16:43
<
erikh >
"see, the 8, she wants the D"
16:43
* erikh
will go hide now
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16:44
<
andrewvos >
whitequark: Thanks! "require': cannot load such file -- parser/compatibility/slop (LoadError)"
16:44
<
matti >
-> erikh is under the bed!
16:44
<
andrewvos >
That's mean matti. You know how he gets when you tell about his hiding spot
16:44
<
andrewvos >
Now he's in tears
16:45
<
matti >
andrewvos: Quick, give him his teddybear.
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<
whitequark >
andrewvos: oh crap
16:52
<
whitequark >
I'm dumb.
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<
whitequark >
andrewvos: released beta10 with the fix
17:07
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<
andrewvos >
Not baddd
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17:15
<
whitequark >
andrewvos: huh
17:15
<
andrewvos >
whitequark: --explain is very cool
17:15
<
whitequark >
I'm glad
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<
woolly >
I'm having trouble with Time.local interpreting BST, and am properly scratching my head
17:30
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<
woolly >
The output of: p Time.now.getlocal.zone, Time.local(2001, 1, 1, 1, 0, 0) is "BST" 2001-01-01 01:00:00 +0000 Surely this should be +0100 since the local time is BST, no?
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<
Cremno >
BST is your current time zone but local 2001-01-01 01:00:00 should have a different one. It doesn't make sense to have summer time in January.
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<
drbrain >
woolly: what is BST?
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18:19
<
drbrain >
time zone abbreviations overlap, I'm guessing British Summer Time
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<
drbrain >
woolly: … Cremno is correct, try: TZ='Europe/London' ruby -e 'p Time.local(2001, 7, 1, 1, 0, 0)'
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<
yorickpeterse >
what the shit
19:01
<
yorickpeterse >
I come back and this channel is full of eval-in ASCII dongs
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<
yorickpeterse >
seems I didn't really miss anything while juggling with Ruby app servers
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<
andrewvos >
That actually happened
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<
yorickpeterse >
looks legit
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<
cout >
it was obviously shopped
19:24
<
cout >
you can tell because of the sound effects
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<
NemesisD >
hi guys. in ruby 2 when i create a directory with an ampersand in it like FileUtils.mkdir("Axis & Allies"), then later get it back from Dir.glob, the apersand becomes "\\u0026", what's going on there?
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<
drbrain >
NemesisD: what does this say: ruby -e 'puts Encoding.find "filesystem"'
22:36
<
drbrain >
if "\\u0026" is from an inspect-string, that's an ampersand
22:36
<
drbrain >
I'm unsure why it would appear in escaped form, though
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<
NemesisD >
drbrain: says UTF-8, the issue is actually coming up in a spec, i'm asserting something I get back from the FS has that & and the spec is failing because it gets back that escape sequence instead
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<
drbrain >
I'm guessing you have an encoding mismatch somehow
22:40
<
NemesisD >
yeah i think so too :/
22:40
<
NemesisD >
i've just been bashing it indescriminiately with encoding methods to try to get it to be normal
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<
dpatel >
\join #mongoid
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<
drbrain >
dpatel: your / fell over
23:00
<
andrewvos >
How embarrassing
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<
drbrain >
at least it didn't go missing entirely
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<
drbrain >
that's what usually happens to me
23:00
<
dpatel >
lol, last time i used irc was a good while agao
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<
RickHull1 >
postmodern: what were some of the gem helper projects you mentioned last night?
23:13
<
RickHull1 >
gem-something?
23:14
<
RickHull1 >
gem-release i think
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<
RickHull1 >
is rubygems-test still useful? i notice the gemtesters.org site has lapsed
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<
postmodern >
RickHull1, mg, gem-release, rubygems-tasks off the top of my head
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