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<merandus>
Hi guys. I need to pass a course that requires me to build a simple application for windows. It's also my first time dealing with programming languages. I've chosen a simple audio player as my project... Can i do this with Ruby?
<maloik>
audio player as in "here's an mp3, play it" ?
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<merandus>
maloik: yeah, give it an mp3 file and it just plays it with vol controls
<maloik>
but that's hardly impressive and most likely wouldn't make you pass the course ;)
<maloik>
"I made a vest!" - "Is that a Nike jacket with your own ugly buttons on it?"
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<merandus>
maloik: l o l. well, my first concern is that if i can make windows apps with gui with Ruby
<maloik>
Shoes does that, surely there'll be other ways as well... not something I've looked into though
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<merandus>
Oh i see
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<merandus>
I seem to be interested into Ruby because 1: It doesn't care what spacing/tabs you use, and 2: As my first programming language, I think i am getting the idea of methods and how you use them on objects
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<ledestin>
what’s the best way to make gem’s bin/foo load files in lib? $LOAD_PATH?
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<yorickpeterse>
morning
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<banisterfiend>
yorickpeterse i need your help de-dutchifying something
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<surrounder>
lol @ de-dutchifying
<banisterfiend>
"de zending kunt u ophalen vanaf de errstvolgende werkdag na 13:00 uur gedurende drie weken op het onderstaande Postkantoor. " ---> do i have to wait till tomorrow to get it or can i get it today?
<surrounder>
I read it as tomorrow
<banisterfiend>
darn :(
<banisterfiend>
surrounder thanks!
<surrounder>
or just give them a call if you're uncertain
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<jrochkind>
yorickpeterse: i suspect neither of us actually want to discuss this anymore, but I can if you like!
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<yorickpeterse>
jrochkind: so my whole point is that when using Nokogiri's API, you have to use a prefix that is unique to the query. That is, if you define a virtual prefix "x" you can then not also match elements using that prefix that use a different namespace
<yorickpeterse>
If you don't you effectively get a collision as the virtual prefix is applied to the entire query
<yorickpeterse>
so
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<yorickpeterse>
damn it
<jrochkind>
I don't understand how that would ever be possible, or how that's a downside. Of course if you define a prefix for your query, the prefix means exactly what you defined it as for the entire query. That is indeed how it works.
<yorickpeterse>
well, so imagine there's <foo xmlns="..." xmlns:x="..."><x:y></xy></foo>
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<jrochkind>
Seriously, all I can say at this point is you might want to find some other serious users of XML namespaces (if you can! namespaces suck and are best avoided!) and see what they think.
<yorickpeterse>
and for whatever reason you'd use xpath('/x:foo/x:y', 'x' => '...')
<jrochkind>
okay, so far so good.
<yorickpeterse>
then that query would return an empty set if "x" was set to the outer namespace URI
<yorickpeterse>
Of course you can say "doh then don't use the "x" prefix twice"
<yorickpeterse>
But that's part of the point: I don't want to force people having to think about that
<jrochkind>
right, that's exactly what anyone should expect — "x" as a prefix means exactly what you defined it as for your query. Any imagined API where "x" as a prefix can mean _more than one thing at once_ is inherently ambiguous.
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<jrochkind>
You can't use XML namespaces without thinking about XML namespaces. You can remove all the namespaces from your doc if you don't want to think about them though.
<jrochkind>
An XML doc can legally use the same prefix to refer to more than one namespace (in different parts of the document) already — that is simply part of how XML namespaces work.
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<yorickpeterse>
The thing is that said API would allow the ambiguity to arise, while at the same time offering little over a combination of namespace-uri() and local-name() (and maybe some variables if your URIs are pulled in from something external)
<jrochkind>
okay, so this is simply not a practically usable API. Nobody is going to use it: '*[local-name() = "foo" and namespace-uri() = "bar"]/*[local-name() = 'bar' and namespace-uri()='other]".
<jrochkind>
So I think it's silly to say that _any_ reasonable API offers "little over" doing that! Nobody's ever going to watn to do that.
<yorickpeterse>
/foo:node[namespace-uri = "http://one"] is one way
<yorickpeterse>
errr
<yorickpeterse>
/
<yorickpeterse>
DAMN IT IRC
<yorickpeterse>
//foo:node[namespace-uri = "http://one"] is one way
<yorickpeterse>
that
<yorickpeterse>
if you don't know the prefix, you can do this:
<yorickpeterse>
if it doesn't have a prefix, then you'll need to use this:
<yorickpeterse>
//*[local-name() = "node" and namespace-uri = "http://one"]
<jrochkind>
if I need ot know whether it has a prefix or has a namespace via a default namespace decleration in order to make a query, that is simply not compliant with the spec or intention of XML namespaces.
<yorickpeterse>
eh, what?
<yorickpeterse>
The last query takes perfect care of that
<jrochkind>
Okay, if " //*[local-name() = "node" and namespace-uri = "http://one/"]" works without having ot know that — I'll simply write code to transform my desired API into that, no problem.
<jrochkind>
Becuase _nobody_ is going to want to write that literally.
<yorickpeterse>
Well so far only one person has brought it up. I don'
<yorickpeterse>
god damn it
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<jrochkind>
Most people don't use, need, or understand XML namespaces, it is true.
<yorickpeterse>
* I don't really care for the feature, so until enough people complain I'm not really going to bother
<yorickpeterse>
That is, I'd much rather spend time working on other parts instead of on an API I won't be using any time soon
<yorickpeterse>
As always, if enough people say "yo stop the stupid shit and give me this" I'll of course consider it
<jrochkind>
All I can say is, find some other people who use XML namespaces and ask them, OR look at any other succesful XML parsing package that handles XML namespaces in any language. I think you will find they all agree.
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<yxhuvud>
or simply ignore the issue until someone that care step up
<yorickpeterse>
Honestly I don't really care how others do it, for the above reasons
<jrochkind>
The current oga implementation is sufficient to let me write my own code to provide the API I want on top. So that's fine, although it worries me that future oga implementations might break it, but that's how it goes.
<yorickpeterse>
oh, they most likely will
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<yorickpeterse>
I haven't had time yet to properly document the public API, but the evaluator's internals wont be one of them
<yorickpeterse>
I do want to add a proper API to allow registering of custom XPath functions and the likes, but it's not there yet
<jrochkind>
if you are telling me that future oga implementation changes most likely will break what I'm doing… I guess I can't use oga? I would love a nokogiri replacement, but I need namespaces to work right. (I know you don't believe me what working right for XML namespaces is, but seriously anyone else who uses them seriously is gonna agree).
<jrochkind>
I mean, if it breaks it in a way where I can easily fix it with new code, that's something that i can handle, although a pain. The real worry is changing the internal implementation in a way that makes it impossible for me to do what i need.
<yorickpeterse>
since it fully overwrites the base method
<jrochkind>
okay, I hear ya. I dunno man. I can't use an XML xpath processor that doesn't handle namespaces right. But I may be in the minority, most people don't use namespaces or don't need them to work right, so maybe you can ignore those who do. I dunno.
<yorickpeterse>
Oga handles namespaces just fine per spec, it just doesn't copy the API Nokogiri provides
<jrochkind>
i know, you don't believe me. I have been unable to convince you.
<yorickpeterse>
How is that not handling them right?
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<yorickpeterse>
The mapping API Nokogiri provides _is not_ part of any spec, so I'm not sure what Oga isn't doing correct here
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<yorickpeterse>
if one were to say "oh it's lacking X compared to Y" then yes, probably that would be the case
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<jrochkind>
If the local-name namespace-uri stuff keeps working, then you're right, I can transform an actual usable API into that, although it could be a pain and require parsing the xpath first! But you will not find anyone using XML namespaces seriously who is willing to use local-name and namespace-uri lke that, and you will not find any other popular XML parser in any language that handles namespaces that does not provide api.
<yorickpeterse>
but saying it's not doing things right because it doesn't implement an _extension_, that's just silly
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<yorickpeterse>
Like I said above, if people prove that is the case I'm willing to reconsider, but so far you've been the only one to bring it up
<yorickpeterse>
and since I don't need this myself I have little interest to spend time on it, when I'd rather spend it on CSS, or making things less god awful slow
<darix>
yorickpeterse: namespaces are actually used often enough
<yorickpeterse>
darix: I'm not saying they aren't
<darix>
mathml embedding in html, repomd also uses multiple namespaces
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<jrochkind>
darix: if you use them in xpath queries regularly and seriously, maybe you can explain to yorickpeterse what sort of an API you need to use them effectively! I have been unsuccesful.
<darix>
jrochkind: i can tell you that it sucks to put into an API
<darix>
:p
<jrochkind>
yorickpeterse: but yes, I fully support prioritizing the performance issues first, that makes sense!
<darix>
plain xml is kinda 2D... with namespaces you kinda get a 3rd dimension
<yorickpeterse>
I still don't get what's wrong with using local-name() and namespace-uri(). Yeah it takes a bit more typing but it's not like you're suddenly typing a book. Besides, it's actually portable unlike the Nokogiri stuff
<darix>
that is hard to express in an api
<yorickpeterse>
(that is, portable between parsing libraries)
<jrochkind>
a bit more typing? It's a ginormous amount of more typing, with many options for typos silently breaking your xpath. that is the problem.
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<yorickpeterse>
That's a fallacy, you can make the exact same mistakes with using the hash API
<darix>
we were thinking about it a lot when we worked on activexml long long ago^^
<jrochkind>
You can make the same mistakes everywhere. But if I need to type the URI 5 times, that's 5x more chance of making a mistkae.
<yorickpeterse>
You don't need to type it 5 times, you can use a variable like I showed above
<jrochkind>
seriously? Okay, maybe i'm wrong. darix, do you want to take a look at what yorickpeterse is suggesting as a reasonable way to do namespace xpath querying, and say if you think it's usable?
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<yorickpeterse>
You can't yet use variables as a replacement for node names, because for whatever reason that's a parser error
<yorickpeterse>
so something like //$x won't work for now
<darix>
looks ok
<yorickpeterse>
not sure if that's even supposed to be parsed but I'll check at some point
<yorickpeterse>
jrochkind: one of the goals I do have is to make it easier to extend things without having to gut the inner parts of Oga, but it's not there yet
<yorickpeterse>
e.g. custom xpath functions
<jrochkind>
yorickpeterse: in your example you forgot the node name part and that to account fo rall possibilities you need to do .xpath("root/*[namespace-uri() = $x and local-name() = 'tag']"), 'x' => 'x').
<jrochkind>
darix, you find that usable? Okay then!
<yorickpeterse>
jrochkind: that is no different from using xpath("x:tag", "x" => "specific URI here")
<jrochkind>
yorickpeterse: the difference is obivously having to write "[namespace-uri() = $x and local-name() = 'tag']"
<jrochkind>
making your xpath essentially write-only code.
<yorickpeterse>
"write-only"?
<jrochkind>
very hard to understand by someone reading the source later.
<yorickpeterse>
also once custom xpath functions are in you can just reduce that to something like ns-element($x, 'tag')
<yorickpeterse>
I'm not sure how that's harder than using prefixes in a query that don't exist in the document
<jrochkind>
anyhow, clearly neither me nor yorickpeterse are going to convince each other, and it's your code to do with what you like yorick! I continue to hope that oga turns into something I can replace nokogiri with, I'll keep watching and wait and see! Me and the other people in my business domain who use namespaced xpaths will require reasonable namespaced xpath support. shrug. if not, there's always nokogiri.
<yorickpeterse>
You still haven't explained to me what's _wrong_ with the current namespace implementation
<yorickpeterse>
You've only talked about an extension implemented by Nokogiri
<yorickpeterse>
and that supposedly Oga is not "correct"
<jrochkind>
i have explained it 10 times, but have not done it succesfully enough so you understand, or you are just refusing to understand, or I dunno. That's how it goes sometimes, it's cool!
<yorickpeterse>
The hash mapping part is _not_ part of the XML/Xpath specification, it's an extension (or even a hack)
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<jrochkind>
that is true. although the specification does mention it's possibility, I can find it if you care, i suspect you don't.
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<jrochkind>
wildcard namespaces is also not part of the spec, although I like that extension too.
<yorickpeterse>
that's a happy little accident of which I'm not sure yet if I'll keep it
<jrochkind>
the XML Namespaces stuff is really badly written specs, since the specs are all hacky add-ons to other things, is part of the problem.
<jrochkind>
there is a reason nearly every single xpath processor that does namespaces implements a nokogiri-like api, in the sense of "supply your query context name space mappings at query time". Because it's the only sane way to do it.
<yorickpeterse>
I literally do not care what others are doing in that regard, unless what Oga is doing is broken on a technical level (= a bug). If Oga's namespace support would be lacking, or utterly broken it would be a different story
<yorickpeterse>
But as it stands it implements what the various specs mandate, this might require some more typing, but it's there
<yorickpeterse>
I _might_ implement some shortcut method, but it most likely won't be the hash mapping API though I _could_ change my mind on that at some point
<jrochkind>
That namespace hash second arg in the nokogiri (or libxml, or java, etc) call is the "namespace declarations from the expression context", I think.
<jrochkind>
okay then, good luck with oga, I hope it continues to prosper, talk to you later maybe!
<yorickpeterse>
No, that has literally nothing to do with the hash mapping
<jrochkind>
It totally does man. "Expression evaluation occurs with respect to a context. XSLT and XPointer specify how the context is determined for XPath expressions used in XSLT and XPointer respectively. The context consists of… the set of namespace declarations in scope for the expression… The namespace declarations consist of a mapping from prefixes to namespace URIs."
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<jrochkind>
"A node test can have the form NCName:*. In this case, the prefix is expanded in the same way as with a QName, using the context namespace declarations. It is an error if there is no namespace declaration for the prefix in the expression context. The node test will be true for any node of the principal type whose expanded-name has the namespace URI to which the prefix expands, regardless of the local part of the name."
<jrochkind>
those context namespace declarations are what we're talking about.
<jrochkind>
_expression_ context, the expression is the xpath expression, not the XML source.
<jrochkind>
but certianly it's hella confusing.
<yorickpeterse>
XSLT and XPointer have nothing to do with this, neither will be part of Oga, ever. The context referred to in the XML spec is the context of where the element resides
<yorickpeterse>
That is, prefixes should be mapped to whatever tree an element resides in
<jrochkind>
I am looking at the XPath spec, it just happens to mention XSLT and XPointer.
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<jrochkind>
"It is an error if the variable name is not bound to any value in the set of variable bindings in the expression context." — how can there be variable bindings in an element of the tree? Obviously there can not be. The variable bindings are attached to the 'expression context', just the same as the namespace declerations are.
<jrochkind>
Man I wish the spec were written less confusingly though. Maybe we can find a spec author to clarify. I doubt it.
<yorickpeterse>
You're mixing XML and XPath specifications...
<yorickpeterse>
The expanded name in XML is nothing more than namespace prefix + node name
<yorickpeterse>
e.g. for <x:foo> that would be "x:foo"
<jrochkind>
Everything I just quoted is from the XPath specification at http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath/. I am mixing nothing, it's all from there.
<jrochkind>
The spec defines "expanded name" in a certain way, and it's actually not that. It involves using the URI, not the prefix.
<jrochkind>
"Some types of node also have an expanded-name, which is a pair consisting of a local part and a namespace URI. The local part is a string. The namespace URI is either null or a string. The namespace URI specified in the XML document can be a URI reference as defined in [RFC2396]; this means it can have a fragment identifier and can be relative. A relative URI should be resolved into an absolute URI during namespace processing: the namespace URIs of expa
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<yorickpeterse>
Either way, like I said I might add something for it, but I'm not going to just do it "because others do it"
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<yorickpeterse>
or because people are too lazy to just use the darn XPath API there already is
<jxpx777>
Is it possible to define a computed file task in Rake? Something like: file File.join(Dir.home, 'build', 'built_file.extension') { fresh_build }
<|jemc|>
jxpx777: why not? it's just ruby
<jrochkind>
there's a reason everyone else does it, it's because it works! okay, cool, this has been more than enough, clearly!
<yorickpeterse>
That quote is not part of the XPath spec like I said, it's on the _XML_ spec
<jxpx777>
|jemc|: Hm… k. Thanks. I'll try some more. Was bumping into some weird issues. Wasn't sure if I was straying outside the intended capabilities of Rake
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<yorickpeterse>
which I why I said you're mixing things up and XSLT/XPointer have nothing to do with that part
<jrochkind>
my IRC client expanded the URL into there, sorry. Do a search for simply "A Qname in the node test is expanded into". You will find it on http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath/, that's where i copied it from.
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<jrochkind>
Are you really accusing me of lying about where I copied the text from? Man, what's going on?
<|jemc|>
jxpx777: your Rakefile is just ruby code that gets executed - so what you want to be doing should be possible
<jrochkind>
okay, good luck, bye!
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<|jemc|>
jxpx777: if you want to post more details about your problem, gist some code and put it here and someone might be able to help you with it
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<jxpx777>
|jemc|: I will if I continue to have issues. For now, I'll see if I can swim on my own. :)
<|jemc|>
jxpx777: good luck :)
<yorickpeterse>
oh right, he already left
<yorickpeterse>
well
<yorickpeterse>
namespaces: making people argue on IRC since 1999
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<ruby-lang273>
Guys i wanna create 2 programs one to encrypt and other to decrypt the file with DES, inputing file name and password, but I'am getting error when decrypting "`final': wrong final block length (OpenSSL::Cipher::CipherError)", when I encrypt and encrypt in same file the problem doesn't exist, anyone knows why?
<ruby-lang273>
sorry for not highligthed but i couldnt set it to ruby
<|jemc|>
ruby-lang273: as a hint, gist.github.com sets syntax highlighting based on file extension
<|jemc|>
so if you had called it decrypt.rb it would "just work" - I find this behavior annoying - it seems like you should be able to do it "manually" from the drop down list
<ruby-lang273>
jemc thank you, worked
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<havenwood>
ruby-lang273: commented on your gist
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<havenwood>
ruby-lang273: some nifty Ruby stuff to look at: