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<
qmx >
raggi: do you have more info?
01:20
<
qmx >
raggi: I think I'm missing context
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<
raggi >
qmx: hey :)
02:06
<
qmx >
raggi: I've tried to figure out the context, but wasn't lucky enough :)
02:07
<
raggi >
qmx: other times, it remains at full speed
02:08
<
raggi >
qmx: i did tune the number of threads down significantly on jruby, as it's better suited to like 5 or so
02:08
<
raggi >
but that doesn't seem to be related to the issue
02:08
<
raggi >
what's odd, as i say, is that it seems like ~ 1/10 runs is very fast, others decay in performance after 100k files or so
02:09
<
qmx >
raggi: hitting ulimits?
02:09
<
qmx >
jruby uses more FDs than yarv?
02:10
<
raggi >
hmm, shouldn't be
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raggi >
could be though, i was running this on osx
02:11
<
raggi >
does jruby block and retry open calls on limits or does it EMFILE immediately?
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<
qmx >
ah, OSX sucks perfwise
02:12
<
raggi >
well, this is totally non-critical anyway
02:12
<
qmx >
but this can be a nice exercise of perf
02:12
<
raggi >
it was just particularly interesting, that about 1/10 runs completed in half the time
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<
qmx >
raggi: just running the indexer.rb is enough?
02:16
<
qmx >
for reproducing locally?
02:17
<
raggi >
qmx: yeah, although the first time you run it, it's going to pull down all the gemspecs and then generate all teh deps - it'll take about 1.5gb total
02:17
<
raggi >
and take a good while
02:19
<
raggi >
qmx: oh, when you re-run it, you'll want to rm -rf deps beforehand, as those files are appended to, not replaced
02:20
<
qmx >
glad I've researched before starting running, I don't want to delete 1.5gb of stuff to remove it accidentally later :)
02:20
<
raggi >
yeah, don't remove specs unless you want to wait again :)
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<
raggi >
i could ship you a tarball wiht the specs
02:20
<
raggi >
save you some time
02:20
<
raggi >
let me grab my other laptop and upload it
02:21
<
qmx >
is it going to be smaller?
02:22
<
raggi >
specs compress really well when packed all together
02:22
<
raggi >
to the point where i'm actually considering a proposal to do periodic specball shipping to clients
02:26
<
qmx >
from 1.5GB to 20MB is serious packing
02:26
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02:26
<
raggi >
gemspecs are mostly repeated data
02:27
<
raggi >
even at a high schema level, but at the block level they're basically the same stuff over and over and over again
02:27
<
raggi >
7zip would probably crunch even more
02:29
<
raggi >
qmx: the ascii formats pack even better, due to the lack of the marshall offset entropy :)
02:30
<
qmx >
raggi: crazy idea, but using an embedded database wouldn't make it way more space efficient?
02:31
<
raggi >
oh it totally would
02:31
<
raggi >
rubygems has to be small on dependencies
02:31
<
raggi >
we still need to handle mirrors efficiently
02:31
<
raggi >
and gdbm/bdb is a pain for portability and maintenance issues
02:32
<
qmx >
I was thinking leveldb or something with the same ideas
02:33
<
raggi >
honestly, if we could pack all of the gemspecs in sqlite or something, we could solve a lot of other open concerns
02:33
<
qmx >
could even be a dumber pure-ruby version of the "sstables thing"
02:33
<
raggi >
particularly around boot performance and so on as well
02:33
<
raggi >
i've written a few different db's in ruby before
02:33
<
qmx >
just saying, asking someone to implement this as a gsoc would be awesome
02:33
<
raggi >
it's not too bad, but platforms are still a pain when you get down to it
02:33
<
qmx >
there's a paper
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<
raggi >
mind you, we probably won't hit journallying or 32-bit addressing boundaries
02:34
<
raggi >
with rubygems
02:34
<
raggi >
at least, i'd hope so
02:34
<
qmx >
so clear directions for someone to burn time and learn a bunch of cool stuff
02:34
<
qmx >
I would put this on the "nice to have" problems
02:35
<
raggi >
i mean, we could also just store all these files in a gzip tarball
02:35
<
raggi >
and someone could use that as the backing store format, and write an indexer on top
02:35
<
raggi >
that would be a neat trick
02:35
<
raggi >
turning tarballs into query-able db's
02:36
<
qmx >
have you ever seen the duplicity's better tar proposal?
02:36
<
raggi >
nope, i'm sure it's more sane though :)
02:36
<
raggi >
tar has a lot of unnecessary stuff for most of it's present day uses
02:37
<
qmx >
just glance over the pictures
02:37
<
raggi >
totally reminds me of my append only store :)
02:37
<
drbrain >
"However, once compressed, the tar archive becomes opaque, and it is impossible to seek around inside."
02:37
<
drbrain >
not impossible
02:38
<
raggi >
drbrain: yeah, zstream is not ideal for index lookups
02:38
<
drbrain >
zlib can give you offsets to use to emulate seek
02:38
<
raggi >
but at least you can avoid coercing stuff to objects and whatnot
02:38
<
raggi >
i mean, these are two differnet use cases really anyway
02:38
<
raggi >
gems having a db for runtime stuff
02:39
<
raggi >
and files for server side stuff
02:39
<
raggi >
drbrain: btw, TUF looks really good, the more i look at it, the more sense it makes
02:39
<
raggi >
drbrain: it's not simple though
02:39
<
drbrain >
thanks for taking the lead on it
02:40
<
raggi >
drbrain: i'm hoping to get some meaningful feedback from various folks in the next week or so
02:40
<
raggi >
glad to see the tuf folks on the ML today too, very nice to have their input
02:41
<
raggi >
qmx: it's a well thought out solution to the signing & trust model stuff
02:41
<
raggi >
qmx: by some academics and the Tor folks
02:41
<
qmx >
I'm reading, looks pretty rad
02:42
<
raggi >
i've started just dropping citations at people now instead of having discussions about the trust model stuff, because it basicalyl details it all
02:44
<
raggi >
qmx: so among other advantages, if we had a db, we could actually use that to avoid most of the stat(2) calls at boot time - we'd probably cut rails boot time by over 50%
02:45
<
qmx >
raggi: is there a system where sqlite3 wouldn't work?
02:45
<
qmx >
it's very portable
02:46
<
raggi >
qmx: i've prototyped related things before, like just smashing all the gemspecs into a single marshal file, and using the spec.files arrays (adjusted for extensions), and patching require to use that, and it was very very fast
02:46
<
raggi >
qmx: oh, sqlite is extremely portable for sure
02:46
<
raggi >
qmx: it just doesn't ship with ruby
02:46
<
qmx >
raggi: would it be impossible to convince matz given the advantages?
02:46
<
raggi >
qmx: ofc, our other option here would be to have enough hooks to enable this to be done by plugin or something
02:46
<
qmx >
oh yeah, having a fast rubygems
02:46
<
raggi >
qmx: i doubt it, but i've never gotten close to ruby-core
02:47
<
qmx >
if it's really faster you might get quick adoption
02:47
<
qmx >
but I would still prefer something pure ruby (for obvious reasons)
02:48
<
raggi >
yeah, sql is a bit excessive for these things, it could easily be done wiht a simple key value namespace
02:48
<
raggi >
but there would also be advantages to using something like sqlite
02:48
<
Freaky >
qmx: C to Ruby translator \o/
02:48
<
raggi >
you outboard a whole bunch of crappy GC overhead
02:49
* qmx
resists the urge to troll the other rubies :)
02:49
<
raggi >
not an issue for jruby really, but for anyone who is still lacking a fast compacting GC, the temporary data overhead is .. frustrating
02:49
<
raggi >
qmx: indeed
02:50
<
qmx >
well, seeing 20MB inflated to 1.2GB is .....depressing
02:50
<
raggi >
that's not really about the db though
02:50
<
raggi >
unless we implemented a very clever db, we'd be somewhere in the middle of that
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02:50
<
raggi >
qmx: that being said though - this is another part fo the reason our boot times suck
02:50
<
qmx >
raggi: this is the kind of thing that would kickass on leveldb
02:51
<
raggi >
qmx: all that data is loaded as gems are required
02:51
<
raggi >
qmx: and we only use 0.01% of the data for activation work
02:51
<
qmx >
do you know exactly what data is used?
02:51
<
raggi >
i've discussed this in the past too, just didn't have time in the last couple of years to get into addressing it
02:51
<
raggi >
qmx: name, version, platform, [dependencies, ...]
02:51
<
qmx >
we could do something akin to a streaming parse of that data
02:52
<
qmx >
and ignore the rest
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<
raggi >
qmx: and if we could cache all files too, we can drop stat calls too, but that's also a separate problem
02:52
<
raggi >
qmx: if we add that deps/* format
02:52
<
raggi >
qmx: then we can make activation consume those files
02:52
<
raggi >
and it'll be much faster
02:52
<
raggi >
leaving just the file tree / stat(2) challenge
02:53
<
raggi >
qmx: so the other thing wiht the stat(2) challenge (remembering now my old investigations into this)
02:53
<
qmx >
I know stat(2) sucks on the JVM
02:53
<
raggi >
qmx: what we
*really* want is an efficient heap data structure to represnet the FS tree
02:53
<
raggi >
qmx: so that you can compress the directory nodes a lot
02:54
<
raggi >
qmx: it really wants to have a native string format (or be able to), in order to be efficient
02:54
<
qmx >
raggi: if you can describe it better, I know an algorithm buddy that would go crazy squeezing shit of it
02:54
<
raggi >
oh, i can implement it in C trivially
02:54
<
raggi >
the problem is, you can't implement this in ruby efficiently
02:54
<
qmx >
I mean pure ruby ;)
02:54
<
raggi >
well you can't
02:54
<
raggi >
heaps cannot be implemented efficiently in ruby
02:55
<
raggi >
not for small values
02:55
<
raggi >
because the objects you wrap them in end up being bigger than the values
02:55
<
raggi >
this is why we need a VM level heap spec
02:55
<
qmx >
wouldn't it warrant a native impl from all?
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02:56
<
raggi >
again, this is the kind of thing that i'd have been happy to send a patch to MRI for, if i'd just found the time to do so
02:56
<
qmx >
this time thing is annoying
02:56
<
qmx >
I'm on that same boat :P
02:57
<
raggi >
qmx: totally
02:57
<
raggi >
qmx: well, the last two years i had to focus on closed source stuff, and it certainly paid off :)
02:58
<
raggi >
i can't complain, but it did result in for example, only one rack release in 2012 :(
02:58
<
qmx >
how are you benchmarking it? just "time"
02:58
<
raggi >
indexer.rb? yeah
02:59
<
raggi >
it takes a few minutes on 1.9/2.0, and generally about 1.5-3 minutes on jruby, so it's reasonable for time
03:00
<
raggi >
the code could probably be optimized too, but it's a reasonable baseline for the proposal
03:00
<
qmx >
!@#$!@#$ openssl
03:00
<
qmx >
can't wait the day krypt kills this @#!$#@
03:01
<
qmx >
having problems on the https part for jdk8 bleeding edge
03:03
<
raggi >
honestly, i can't wait until ssl / tls are replaced
03:03
<
raggi >
but that's wishful thinking
03:03
<
raggi >
i'll probably be retired by then
03:03
<
raggi >
so i knew krypt was coming
03:03
<
raggi >
but i hadn't realized it reimplements all the crypto too
03:07
<
qmx >
ok, I'm entering a rathole with openssl
03:07
<
qmx >
better call a day now while I'm still sane
03:08
<
qmx >
I hope to check this this weekend
03:08
<
raggi >
is emboss being sponsored for krypt?
03:08
<
qmx >
found a nastier bug because of this, thank you!
03:08
<
raggi >
oh, er, good
03:08
<
qmx >
about emboss I don't know, but he should
03:08
<
qmx >
krypt is cool shit
03:09
<
raggi >
it's a lot of work
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<
qmx >
raggi: those failed download specs are normal?
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<
raggi >
there's something like 5-7 of them
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<
rubygems-newb >
so can rubygems be configured to serve everything via s3? it seems to be trying to serve some stuff from cf and some from s3....
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