<ocdtrekkie> Paulproteus : Back when I played with Kid Pix, I was a Mac user.
<ocdtrekkie> LC III was my first Mac.
<ocdtrekkie> First computer, really.
<ocdtrekkie> Few people today would believe I started on Apple.
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<zarvox> ocdtrekkie: oh man I grew up on Kid Pix too! I actually have the floppies in a case on my desk at home.
<ocdtrekkie> I have a CD version for Windows that could probably be convinced to run in a VM or something.
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<erikmaarten> good morning
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<zarvox> good evening!
<zarvox> :)
<erikmaarten> My Sandstorm app will need a few different permission types so I'm thinking about how to implement that. It seems the package def just needs one line for that, right? As in "bridgeConfig = (viewInfo = (permissions = [(name = "admin"), (name = "player"), (name = "viewer")]))"?
<erikmaarten> :)
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<erikmaarten> (it's a pity by the way that mornings and mornings at different places don't coincide, feel like I'm around here at the wrong times haha)
<zarvox> You also want a set of roles, which are what will be shown in the sharing UI.
<zarvox> (You also want fields other than just name, for UI integration)
<erikmaarten> Right. Do you know if there's an example of this somewhere?
<zarvox> pulling one up, one sec :)
<erikmaarten> thanks :)
<zarvox> you're probably fine with just permissions and roles
<erikmaarten> So basically, a role has a name that users can see when sharing, and the array of permissions for each role represent which of the permissions are enabled for a role?
<zarvox> Bingo!
<zarvox> And the grain owner has all permissions, even if that's not a role you defined.
<erikmaarten> got it :)
<zarvox> and the verbPhrase is what will appear in the dropdown in the UI
<erikmaarten> oh, right
<zarvox> Upon reflection, perhaps role should be radio buttons in the UI, because comboboxes have bad discoverability...
<zarvox> The "name" fields of the permissions are what will be passed in the X-Sandstorm-Permissions header
<erikmaarten> ok, so that's what my app checks for
<erikmaarten> Is there a way to refer to permissions by name rather than just the order in the array?
<zarvox> Just the order in the array.
<zarvox> As far as I know, anyway.
<erikmaarten> was just thinking it seems fairly easy to make a mistake when editing the file or adding permissions
<zarvox> Yeah, it makes me a tad nervous too. I think at the protocol layer, it has to be a vector of booleans, but I could see a case for a more human-readable format in the pkgdef - after all, sandstorm-http-bridge is parsing that pkgdef and extracting the bridgeConfig so it can answer the RPCs appropriately
<zarvox> I'm not entirely sure what the behavior for permissions on upgrade is, or should be, come to think of it.
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<zarvox> Like, version X has 2 permissions, you share a thing under role R, then upgrade to version Y, which has 3 permissions. Are roles sticky? What if you filtered out permissions and reshared? And so on and so forth.
<zarvox> dwrensha or kentonv might have a better grasp of how that needs to work
<erikmaarten> Yeah, that's quite interesting, could go quite badly if developers and users don't expect the same thing
<zarvox> I think developers can probably never remove old permissions, since they'd be redefining previous sharing data
<zarvox> they can just start ignoring the value in their app code instead, and using the new permissions
<erikmaarten> sounds fair
<erikmaarten> my app is a simple board game (Go). Would it be strange if it had different new document handlers, depending on board size? I'm thinking it would be nice to be able to start playing directly when a grain has been created. If I define several such handlers, how can I pass messages to the app depending on which handler was used to create a new grain?
<zarvox> Hmmm, maybe it makes sense to have the different board sizes be different actions.
<zarvox> I did something similar with framadate, to note whether this was a generic poll or an agree-on-a-date: https://github.com/zarvox/framadate/blob/sandstorm/.sandstorm/sandstorm-pkgdef.capnp
<zarvox> Note the three actions at the end of the file, and the three different scripts they call for new schedule, new poll, and "start up previously-launched grain"
<zarvox> Basically, I write something to /var based on the action that was picked at first launch, and then I use everything else exactly the same
<zarvox> Hmm, I don't think we currently track which action initially spawned a grain. We probably should, so we can sort most-used by action, rather than purely by app.
<erikmaarten> Right, I could probably use the same approach then. Could I not send a message/header or something to the application though, and depending on the message save a simple value in the db?
<zarvox> For what it's worth, if you use multiple actions, you'll have the second app that does so (the first is Framadate). We haven't fully proven them out, so there may still be rough corners.
<erikmaarten> oh, cool! On the bleeding edge... :)
<erikmaarten> well, I think I'll try anyway
<zarvox> Indicating the action isn't currently part of the web session context, and I'm not sure it fits there. For instance, should a user receiving a sharing token need to care which action initially spawned the grain? I suspect it doesn't, and at worst, it could be an obscure infoleak
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<zarvox> It's getting late here for me, so I should probably go to bed soon, but feel free to leave me messages or send me emails and I'll take a look at them later :)
<erikmaarten> sure, and thanks for your help so far!
<zarvox> I'm excited that you're making an app!
<erikmaarten> :)
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<ckocagil> dwrensha: yt?
<dwrensha> ckocagil: good morning
<ckocagil> 'morning!
<ckocagil> I've been thinking about what a Gogs/Gitlab grain should provide -- a single repo or a hub
<ckocagil> hubs make forking and working with multiple repos easier. but they must provide their own, per-repo access control.
<dwrensha> is "hub" a Gogs - specific term? I'm not sure what you mean by it.
<ckocagil> dwrensha: hub as in github, a group of repositories with different owners
<dwrensha> ok
<ckocagil> that allows forking, diffing, merging across repos
<dwrensha> single-repo-per-grain is definitely the more Sandstorm-native thing to do
<ckocagil> I definitely agree, but it will then lack some functionality
<ckocagil> I think the best of both ways is to provide both as different Sandstorm apps.
<ckocagil> e.g. "Create a Gitlab repo" and "Create a Gitlab network"
<dwrensha> does Gogs only provide two permissions levels? read and write?
<ckocagil> AFAICT yes
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<dwrensha> In GitLab we end up keeping a lot of functionality because it has a range of roles (https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab-ce/blob/master/doc/permissions/permissions.md) and protected branches
<dwrensha> so you can still set up a work flow with pull requests and code reviews
<ckocagil> hm. I'll check how PRs work with gitlab.
<dwrensha> I assume Gogs still lets you do pull requests between branches of the same repo?
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<erikmaarten> re app packaging, are files in the .sandstorm folder not included in the package? If not, where are these on the virtual machine so I can specifically include them?
<erikmaarten> Specifically, I have a custom "new document" handler, which seems to work except that the file it should run is not found
<erikmaarten> dwrensha, any idea?
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<erikmaarten> think I got it
<erikmaarten> I'll take that back, still seems the file can't be found. The thing is, if I ssh into the machine it's definitely there. Somebody suggested it may be a problem with Windows/Unix line endings, making sure it's not that
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<dwrensha> erikmaarten: what does your sourceMap look like in your sandstorm-pkgdef.capnp?
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<erikmaarten> dwrensha: http://pastebin.com/XFGBxnMG
<erikmaarten> I only added the last line, but I'm not sure it made a difference
<dwrensha> erikmaarten: that should include any files in .sandstorm in the root / directory of the app
<dwrensha> maybe try leaving off the trailing slash in the last line?
<erikmaarten> and the root directory of the app will be /opt/app right?
<erikmaarten> will try
<dwrensha> no, the only files directories included in the app's filesystem are those specified by sourceMap
<dwrensha> and /opt/app doesn't appear in yours
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<dwrensha> if you have a file /opt/app/.sandstorm/foo.txt, that sourceMap will map it to /foo.txt in the app
<erikmaarten> right, just what I was about to ask
<erikmaarten> ah, I was looking at the Piwik app and it also includes opt/app, perhaps that's why it prepended that to the file paths
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<dwrensha> Looks like Piwik has a ( sourcePath = "/")
<dwrensha> /opt/app will get included as part of that (as it's not in the hidePaths)
<erikmaarten> oh, ok
<erikmaarten> well, it still doesn't work when I remove the /opt/app. Would you mind having a look at my pkgdef file?
<erikmaarten> ah, should have put a slash in front...
<erikmaarten> That seems to have worked
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<dwrensha> cool. But now I'm confused about how other vagrant-spk / meteor apps work.
<dwrensha> which references /opt/app/launcher.sh, but does not include (sourcePath = "/")
<erikmaarten> Yeah, that seems to be what I tried with first
<erikmaarten> Perhaps SandForms doesn't work yet? :)
<dwrensha> well, I'm playing Game of Y with basically the same setup, and it seems to work
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<dwrensha> erikmaarten: you are making an app for the Go board game? :)
<erikmaarten> Yes!
<dwrensha> cool!
<erikmaarten> thanks!
<erikmaarten> should be ready to try out soon, it's a fairly simple app
<erikmaarten> Isn't it a little bit odd that verbPhrase shows in the role list when sharing, instead of the role name?
<dwrensha> the role name shows up as hover text
<dwrensha> er, "title" I think I mean
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<erikmaarten> ah. The list field is a fairly small and doesn't quite show the whole phrase unless it's clicked first, though that's a very minor issue
<dwrensha> vagrant-spk makes a new /opt/app directory under /home/vagrant/bundle
<dwrensha> and copies over *just* the launch.sh file
<dwrensha> *launcher.sh
<dwrensha> paulproteus, zarvox: ^ this is confusing. Is there a better way?
<erikmaarten> aha, yup that's definitely a bit funny
<erikmaarten> seems simpler to just include the .sandstorm directory explicitly in the pkgdef
<erikmaarten> and change the path
<dwrensha> I think the issue is that most of the stuff in .sandstorm doesn't actually belong in the app
<erikmaarten> right
<dwrensha> I wonder whether there a way to get meteor's bundling process to include the files you're interested in
<erikmaarten> actually, the files I wanted to include seem a bit unnecessary. They just export env var, so I figured, why not set those env vars directly in the command in the package definition file?
<erikmaarten> not sure if there are any downsides, but at least it seems to work
<dwrensha> that sounds reasonable
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<ckocagil> do you folks work on sandstorm full-time?
<dwrensha> I am a Sandstorm employee. erikmaarten is not.
<ckocagil> I see a bright future for Sandstorm, both as an open source and as a business
<ckocagil> open source project*
<ckocagil> Also, not that anyone cares much about my opinion, but the lack of a file syncing app seems to be the biggest gap in the app store right now
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<erikmaarten> ckocagil, think I heard about somebody building that, but can't remember the name
<erikmaarten> was somebody possible working on porting syncthing? maybe not
<erikmaarten> possibly*
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<paulproteus> Ladies and gentlemen -- Meteor Todos is a killer app for Sandstorm users.
<paulproteus> : D
<paulproteus> brb working on app store-ifying it
<paulproteus> Deep down, I don't really like websites.
<paulproteus> So I'm unhappy to be doing this Keybase verification thing.
<paulproteus> Oh well.
<maurer> paulproteus: keybase has a not-terrible command line program
<maurer> paulproteus: I do think you have to do the initial sign up on a website tho
<paulproteus> Yeah. I also wish it would import my AMAZING web of trust!
<paulproteus> My web of trust is good and I have been cultivating it for ~9 years but these keybase people don't care at all about it, which makes me sad.
<maurer> I mean, my understanding is that it's not a web of trust provider, it's an alt-root provider
<paulproteus> I know, I know, they're doing something different than web of trusting.
<maurer> Like, what you're supposed to do is use your web of trust by default
<maurer> and when you can't find a path, you use keybase to match a pubkey to an online identity
<paulproteus> But as a result using keybase makes me feel lonely and upset.
<maurer> I see
<maurer> What would you like keybase to do with your web of trust?
<paulproteus> It's okay, it's just a feeling, I will continue to live, and feel healed in like four minutes or something.
<paulproteus> Display it, and/or auto-track people based on keyserver signatures.
<maurer> The second thing sound s like it'd be straightforwards to do as a change in their cli
<maurer> maybe file an issue on it?
<paulproteus> All my radical ideas have already occurred to others apparently: https://github.com/keybase/keybase-issues/issues/464
<maurer> On the plus side, it's not closedwontfix
<maurer> but it's also kind of old at this point
<maurer> so it's evidently not a priority
<paulproteus> It makes me feel like I'm an old fogey and no one cares about hosting old binaries for the IBM System 360 that I grew up with and loved, or something.
<paulproteus> But anyway. I will stop whining and get back to uploading apps to the Sandstorm App Marketplace. I did subscribe that issue at least, which is nice because if they change their minds I'll find out.
<maurer> paulproteus: It's OK, I too live in the future past
<maurer> *future of the past
<paulproteus> Speaking of which, how did DanC_'s nix stuff go?
<maurer> Dunno. What he wanted to do is possible with my nix files
<maurer> It's not clean, but it is possible
<paulproteus> Also ckocagil re: file sync, I think you'll like https://twitter.com/SandstormIO/status/636592200969797635
<maurer> Nix closures maintain a list of all runtime dependency packages, which shows what all the dependency files are
<paulproteus> But it needs Sandstorm core patches being discussed here https://github.com/sandstorm-io/sandstorm/pull/810
<maurer> So it's theoretically possible to autopopulate the manifest directly from the webapp's built closure
<maurer> and then call spk on that
<maurer> Maybe after my proposal, and the next interim progress review for the darpa grant, I'll have the time to try to properly nix things
<maurer> (ekam and meteor don't make it easy)
<paulproteus> In the absence of any other info, I expect kentonv is likely to look at that again on Friday. I'll let him comment about his own priorities though.
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* paulproteus checks if there's a Cap'n Proto mode for Emacs.
<paulproteus> Ouch but the Emacs mode doesn't handle indentation.
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<paulproteus> Howdy groxx, always nice to see more people around here. If you have any questions, feel free to ask, and also feel free to be around here just listening (aka "idling").
<groxx> mostly idling :) seriously considering the service as both user and dev, but super busy lately :|
<groxx> hanging onto the room is an easy way to not forget. and I might hear random interesting things.
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<paulproteus> Great, groxx ! Hope you stay around.
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<paulproteus> warren: ^
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<kentonv> warren: Signature checking for installs and updates is released. Documentation update (with instructions for verifying the installer itself via PGP) coming later today.
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<zarvox> https://github.com/sandstorm-io/sandstorm/issues/919 <-- my proposal for a postMessage API for implementing desktop notifications in Sandstorm. Happy to offer mentorship if anyone wants to work on implementing this!
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<ocdtrekkie> dwrensha : I think I actually briefly looked at porting that when I first saw it. But
<ocdtrekkie> I didn't.
<dwrensha> ocdtrekkie: Sing LI is responsible for the Rocket Chat spk
<ocdtrekkie> Ah cool.
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