whitequark changed the topic of #tinyqma to: design of an open hardware DDS-based QMA with a low-voltage dc/rf stage :: http://irclog.whitequark.org/tinyqma
<mne> whitequark, that depends on the thickness of the nitride layer
<mne> There are even tables for that providing an overview of color vs thickness
<mne> :)
<whitequark> nitride?
<whitequark> layer?
<whitequark> I'm talking about the color of the liquid
<mne> ooh, ok. In that sense no2 makes more sense :) So you're boiling them in hno3 :)
<whitequark> yea
<mne> is it working well ? what concentration do you use ?
<whitequark> "concentrated"
<whitequark> let me see the datasheet
<mne> that wold be ~ 70%
<whitequark> hm don't have it
<whitequark> but yes
<whitequark> about seventy
<whitequark> still need to boil for quiiiite a while
<whitequark> like 20-30 min
<mne> And that works well to dissolve the epoxy ? I suppose you need to heat i up so that it starts to work at all ?
<whitequark> yes
<mne> right
<whitequark> it doesn't dissolve it entirely
<whitequark> it makes the outer layers fall off like flakes
<whitequark> and exposing the IC itself, around which the epoxy is harder or something
<whitequark> if you boil it long enough, that epoxy will also come off with gentle swab movement
<whitequark> and you will be left with a very clean surface
<mne> H2SO4 dissolves it completely, but you need to heat it up to ~ 150 °C at leats
<whitequark> can't get H2SO4
<whitequark> easily
<whitequark> "OMGDRUGS"
<mne> hmm, ok
<whitequark> nitric is freely sold tho
<mne> For bulk decapsulations I typically use H2SO4 whereas otherwise I use fuming nitric. That works really well
<mne> Do these flakes also come off well in an ultrasonic acetone bath ?
<whitequark> eh my ultrasonic bath is made of plastic
<whitequark> not recommended to use with acetone
<mne> use a glass beaker with the acetone in it
<whitequark> hrm
<whitequark> yeah
<whitequark> don't see the point though
<whitequark> I need to fix the chip on a slide anyway
<mne> the use is cleaning. If you get really nice and clean results without it, you're fine ;)
<whitequark> well http://groupxiv.whitequark.org/#url=data/attiny2313.png.json&x=4096&y=3770&z=2
<mne> It also depends on the type of expoxy.
<whitequark> all the artifacts you see is the result of me scraping the chip with a fingernail
<whitequark> I have another one, unimaged, which has a practically perfectly flat surface
<mne> yep, you need to be careful handling the dies to avoid scratches
<whitequark> oh yeah, there are also two pieces of junk, but that's just dust in my apartment floating around. should've blown it away
<whitequark> otherwise I am satisfied with the surface
<whitequark> don't see what could be better, really
<mne> I suppose some nitric got through the bonding pads, right ? It appears that it has started to etch M1
<mne> But yes, it looks good ! :)
<whitequark> I'm not exactly sure about pads
<whitequark> you mean http://groupxiv.whitequark.org/#url=data/attiny2313.png.json&x=4202&y=2316&z=5 ?
<mne> yesw
<whitequark> hm looks like so
<mne> Do you plan to delayer it as well ?
<whitequark> comparing to the M1 squares at the top
<whitequark> sure
<whitequark> RIE
<mne> I suppose it's 5 layers
<whitequark> I see 4
<whitequark> on x100
<mne> could be
<whitequark> substrate, two poly, and one metal
<mne> RIE with what kind of gases ?
<whitequark> freon
<whitequark> well, I hope to get C2F6
<mne> CF4 ? Or do you also plan to etch metal ? copper is a problem
<mne> We use CF4:O2
<whitequark> hm
<mne> but it's damn expensive ..
<whitequark> I haven't found CF4 in reasonable quantities
<mne> CF4 I mean
<whitequark> I can get a 40L cylinder for cheap
<mne> ok, you're outside the EU
<whitequark> yes :D
<whitequark> I can get CFCs no problem
<whitequark> even 141b
<mne> So you want to remove the oxide and nitride with the plasma
<mne> And them remove the copper using wet-chemical etching, right ?
<whitequark> yeah, why not
<mne> we're working on that as well, but found it not so easy ..
<whitequark> what about etching copper with CCl4
<mne> don't know. Its all chlorine based
<mne> We avoid that in our RIE
<whitequark> why?
<mne> it attacks the rie etcher itself as well
<mne> And some of the gases are pretty dangerous if inhaled
<mne> whereas CF4 is unproblematic
<whitequark> my chamber is 316L almost entirely
<whitequark> with some 321
<mne> do you have pictures ?
<mne> brb
<whitequark> not quite done yet
<mne> Nice
<mne> I use a modified Technics planarEtch II
<mne> what kind of RF source do you use ?
<whitequark> don't have one
<mne> magnetron ?
<whitequark> yeah
<mne> I see
<whitequark> for no particular reason except I wanted to do a DC one before moving to RF.
<mne> It's easier I suppose ?
<whitequark> I could probably not convert it to a rectifier and get an RF source, though not very efficient
<whitequark> at ~120kHz
<whitequark> *not connect
<whitequark> a proper 13.56 one would of course do better here
<mne> I hope so see some cool RIE results from you soon :)
<mne> Do you have a SEM as well ?
<whitequark> nope
<whitequark> I have no formal experience either, I was just bored
<mne> lol, ok
<whitequark> "just bored" gives you a chamber but a SEM is quite a bit more expensive
<whitequark> also annoying to move cross-continent
<mne> depending on the size he cost for that it ~ 1.k USD
<mne> 1.5k USD
<whitequark> for moving it?
<mne> yep
<mne> via UPS air freight from the US to the EU
<whitequark> bleh
<mne> for ~ 800kg
<whitequark> wait what
<whitequark> 800?
<mne> yep
<mne> heavy stuff
<whitequark> is it from 1980
<mne> Well, everything is packed into crates and crates are heavy
<whitequark> though after a UV spectrophotometer that weighs 20kg I will not be surprised by anything
<mne> For a typical SEM (i.e. a LEO1430 or something) the overall weight without crates would be around 550kg
<mne> Or you try to get a small one like the PSEM
<mne> from Aspex/RJ Lee
<mne> Or one of those table top things
<whitequark> yeah thinking tabletop
<mne> although they don't give you too much freedom
<mne> and they are rather limited
<mne> expensive also
<mne> like 30k US or so
<mne> whereas bigger ones are available at lower prices
<whitequark> as usuah
<mne> they give you more freedom for modifications and higher beam resolutions due to the size to the column
<mne> yep
<mne> anyway, need to go no. Contact me if you get your first results with RIE.
<whitequark> o/
<whitequark> sure
<mne> Would be cool to compare results