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<trocado>
hi! anyone knows what's going on with sbcl's site? seems down...
<pierpa_>
try asking in #sbcl
<Bike>
i think the answer is "sourceforge"
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<trocado>
is anything wrong with sourceforge? the landing page is opening on my machine.
<Bike>
yeah, but sbcl's hosting has been up and down rcently.
<trocado>
ok
<trocado>
you wouldn't know of a mirror for the manual?
<Bike>
google cache has it
<Bike>
as of a few days ago
<trocado>
i forgot about google cache, thanks!
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<nydel>
i don't think i've ever seriously used cmucl. i might be interested to try out CLX its built-in x11 gui interface, anyone used it to positive or negative experience?
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<Bike>
clx isn't cmucl-only
<Bike>
and programming with clx is equivalent to programming with xlib, that is to say, extraordinarily unpleasant
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<Lycurgus>
i used it before the fork
<Lycurgus>
fwiu they're still essentially similar
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<Lycurgus>
yello beach
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<Lycurgus>
oder moin
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<beach>
Lycurgus: So now that you know about all the activities toward a Lisp OS, have you decided to help out with some project?
<Lycurgus>
i have my own project
<beach>
What is that?
<Lycurgus>
i call it MCP
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<Lycurgus>
MCP/DCP
<beach>
And what does it do?
<Lycurgus>
the lisp image portion would be the "upper part" of MCP married to a SSI linux kernel
<Lycurgus>
and of course I'm not limited to lisp
<Lycurgus>
albeit fairly heavily committed
<krwq>
beach: are you talking about something else than mezzano?
<beach>
krwq: First-class global environments is a requirement for multi-user functionality.
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<krwq>
beach: I'm not sure what do you mean by that but will try reading your article. have you started implementing that yet?
<beach>
Oh yes.
<beach>
minion: Please tell krwq about SICL.
<minion>
krwq: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
<beach>
minion: Please tell krwq about Cleavir.
<minion>
krwq: Cleavir: A project to create an implementation-independent compilation framework for Common Lisp. Currently Cleavir is part of SICL, but that might change in the future
<beach>
krwq: I am working top-down and I try to make my stuff modular and implementation-independent as much as possible.
<beach>
krwq: Making it boot on bare metal will come much later.
<krwq>
beach: so your lisp OS idea has the different idea of how is data organized (i.e. no hierarchical paths) - that seems to be incompatible with CL - are you planning to update CL to like CL2?
<krwq>
beach: I'd vote for that btw - I do not like paths
<beach>
krwq: Some parts of Common Lisp may need some artificial support.
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<beach>
But, for the OS, it is not terribly important to me if things like pathnames are supported.
<krwq>
beach: it would be nice if you could translate that idea to paths as well and make both supported - filesystem can interpret slash as a separator for a list of categories
<beach>
Sure.
<krwq>
listing a directory would be pretty much as a search engine
<Lycurgus>
well the first thing that really gels/catches on will dominate, if any
<krwq>
Lycurgus: that's not often the best option though
<Lycurgus>
it's been a quixotic project for decades so the presumption must be nothing will
<beach>
Lycurgus: I'll say this again in case it hasn't been clear: I don't care if I will end up being the only user of what I create.
<Lycurgus>
except of course for the historical antecedent
<Lycurgus>
i definitely do care
<Lycurgus>
but OK if not
<krwq>
Lycurgus: I think it's better to share ideas like that - IMO this sounds really cool - I've spent a lot of time already trying to figure out how to organize my hierarchical paths
<Lycurgus>
operating systems aren't judged by what they're implemented in
<loke>
Even if Beach doesn't implement pathnames it seems to me that such a concept can easy be built on top of the primitves he _do_ create.
<beach>
Lycurgus: What makes you say that?
<Lycurgus>
so sharing collides with the reality of the capital system, in which life actually occurs
<krwq>
but having said that if we apply this for paths we could do that as well for other things i.e. bindings - lexical bindings are also hierarchical
<loke>
I think they issue here is that pathnames themselves are not the idea fundamental mechanism to organise information.
<loke>
s/idea/ideal/
<Lycurgus>
an OS is a fundamental system resource that is judged on it's merits as such, that's what I meant by that
<beach>
Lycurgus: Just to be clear, what I am designing is not just another operating system similar to existing ones, except written in Common Lisp.
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<beach>
Lycurgus: I am a researcher. I invent new ideas, test them, and document them in the form of papers. The main test is whether the ideas are good or not. Not whether it is used. Of course, it is even better if it turns out to be useful to people.
<krwq>
good point
<beach>
But, there are so many psychological barriers in the domain of software that I strongly suspect very few people will be interested.
<Lycurgus>
beach, I see. I am not a researcher, I'm more interested in practical extension of current technical horizons
<beach>
Good for you.
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<Lycurgus>
so I use research results for that purpose but research for the sake of research doesn't appeal to me
<beach>
Lycurgus: So let's not assume any particular goals of each other's work.
<Lycurgus>
agreed
<krwq>
beach: if at any time in the future (file-read ...) and (read-file ...) will be the same you bought one user
<beach>
krwq: Sorry, the OS I am designing won't have any files. :)
<Lycurgus>
:)
<beach>
krwq: Partly joking.
<krwq>
beach: what is the planned concept for storing data then?
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<beach>
And chapter 2. But the design is very preliminary.
<beach>
Also 1.3.3
<krwq>
beach: I'm not seing any numbering there - am I missing some pdf?
<krwq>
beach: my bad I opened html
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<krwq>
beach: how long are you into lisp?
<beach>
krwq: Do you mean how long have I been using Lisp?
<krwq>
beach: yes, unless you got any other significant lisp date
<beach>
Since 1977 or so.
<beach>
So that would be 40 years.
<beach>
Of course it wasn't Common Lisp at the time.
<krwq>
beach: wow
<krwq>
i haven't been born yet back then
<krwq>
have you helped standardizing CL?
<beach>
No, I wasn't involved.
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<whoman>
beach: what other kind of languages have you used a lot of? just curious. thats a lot of lisp =)
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<krwq>
whoman: considering you can write DSLs in lisps that might be a tough question :)
<krwq>
s/write DSLs/write DSLs easily/
<beach>
whoman: A lot? Pascal, PL/I, C, Scheme. A little: Python, C++, Java, PostScript, Simula, APL, Metafont, and maybe some more.
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<whoman>
beach: alright, cool! =)
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<flip214>
Shinmera: thought so ;)
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<sbat>
\back
<sbat>
heh
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<Murii|osx>
Is there a function to check if a variable is set to 't'? Something to replace (eq var t) ?
<malice>
if
<malice>
when
<phoe>
#'identity
<Murii|osx>
something like how's endp, nilp or nil?
<malice>
if you just want the T and not anything else, then these won't do of course
<phoe>
Murii|osx: but you don't need that
<phoe>
you have generalized booleans in Lisp.
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<malice>
Yes.
<phoe>
so everything that isn't NIL is true in Lisp.
<malice>
Is that a problem?
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<Murii|osx>
I know, but I want to know if there's something specific for 't'
<beach>
Murii|osx: What is wrong with (eq var t)?
<phoe>
if you want to specifically check that a thing is *exactly* the symbol T, then (eq thing t) is the shortest way.
<Murii|osx>
phoe alright
<Murii|osx>
beach nothing, was wondering if there is something shorter
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<kolb>
(not (null x)) would be idiomatic I guess, but i'd just say x. Testing for (eq x t) specifically seems... unconventional.
<phoe>
kolb: not really
<Shinmera>
/even shorter/ than (eq t X)?? that's like four characters for the "function".
<phoe>
(not (null x)) is not equivalent to (eq x t)
<kolb>
I am not saying it is
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<kolb>
I am questioning the choices that lead to having to test for (eq x t)
<Shinmera>
kolb: Sometimes T is used as a special value.
<Shinmera>
For instance, I sometimes use it to denote "dwim" or "everything"
<kolb>
Hmm right, I guess like format does
<malice>
I have a problem with my ASD definition or quicklisp. Here's part with components: https://pastebin.com/SmVThpRa
<malice>
They are using :serial t, so I believe that they should load in descending order (top-to-bottom). However, when loading with (quickload :my-system :verbose t), I get a warning about PACKAGE::SOME-FUNCTION not being defined.
<malice>
This is indeed the case; there ought to be PACKAGE-UTILS::SOME-FUNCTION, defined in src/utils/file (and there is one). The PACKAGE-UTILS is :use'd in src/package, so in theory, this should be visible. Is this a problem with my ASD definition?
<malice>
Oh, and the warning comes from the "main", which is the last file to be loaded.
<Shinmera>
Sounds more like you're either forgetting the package prefix, forgetting to :use the package, or made a typo.
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<beach>
rme: Around?
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<malice>
Shinmera: neither; I forgot to export the function. Thanks for the tips!
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<rme>
beach: here
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<fe[nl]ix>
jackdaniel: when do we get an ECL release ? I'd like to update the version used in cl-travis
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<jackdaniel>
fe[nl]ix: best case in May (unless some unexpected stream of contributors appears)
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<fe[nl]ix>
luis: around ?
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<New585>
Hello, How can I know if I have aptitude for programming? Is it something which I can know?
<beach>
New585: Yes.
<beach>
There is no such thing as genetic aptitude.
<beach>
There is just hard work.
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<stacksmith>
If you enjoy it, it is not too hard.
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<New585>
beach: So if i work hard i can be good at it? It doesn't matter if I am weak at maths or not a bright student?
<beach>
New585: I suggest you read a book entitled "Peak, secrets from the new science of expertise"
<New585>
stacksmith: I do enjoy it. Whenever I am able to solve a question I get a sense of satisfaction
<stacksmith>
Go for it. I dropped out of high school, and never looked back.
<malice>
New585: Unfortunately, all of us have left our crystal balls at different dimensions, so we can't say for sure, but if you keep practicing, you will at least become decent, which is good enough.
<beach>
New585: The amount of work can vary according to motivation of course.
<stacksmith>
Minimal math helps, but you can figure it out as you go. It makes more sense when you see why you need it.
<New585>
Ok, I understand
<New585>
Thank you everyone and thanks beach I'll definitely read the book.
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<beach>
Good luck.
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<drdo>
Is there a function to take a subseq but with structural sharing?
<drdo>
Hmm looks like this displaced array thing is what I want
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<phoe>
drdo: in case of arrays, yes, in case of lists, only if you do NTHCDR.
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<scmlinux>
Could someone please share a tutorial on the installation of CLSQL in GNU CLISP? Bonus points if it has simple examples of its usage too.
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<pjb>
It's even more like 90%.
<stacksmith>
Yeah, I couldn't remember and played it safe.
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<pjb>
88.01461% to be exact.
<stacksmith>
It's pretty amazing actually. I assumed it for just over half
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<fiveop>
Hi, a question regarding FILE-LENGTH. The Hyperspec says "For a binary file, the length is measured in units of the element type of the stream".
<scmlinux>
Does anyone know of good SBCL MySQL tutorial?
<fiveop>
It says nothing about text files.
<fiveop>
Is that intentional?
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<comborico1611>
scmlinux: I'm very new to Lisp, but I also would like to know of such a tutorial.
<stacksmith>
fiveop: for text files there is an assumption of 8-bit octets... Not standard.
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<fiveop>
it makes sense, because for variable length encodings you have to parse the whole file to determine its length, but why not mention that in the standard :/